Morgana and Devin: Today, our episode is about infidelity and we have a special guest and author cj grace.  She is the author of "adulterers wife, how to thrive, whether you stay or not." Her mantra is the best revenge is to get past the need for revenge.  And so, you know that is like that's not been an issue in our relationship, and you know, hopefully, never will be, but it's something that does show up in a lot of relationships, so I thought it was a good thing to address, especially because I really like her.

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Morgana and Devin: Welcome cj.

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CJ: Thank you.

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Morgana and Devin: infidelity what a fun topic.

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CJ: So anyway, yes.

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CJ: well.

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Morgana and Devin: The reason I wanted you is because.

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Morgana and Devin: it's not a fun topic, but you're fun and when there's something so we may we may trick everybody so right.

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Morgana and Devin: How so well Well, no, I mean it's it's an intense subject right for many people who are in this middle you know mid life experience.

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Morgana and Devin: there's probably a whole there's a whole lot of our audience, who have experienced it in one form or another.

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Morgana and Devin: So it's an important thing, nothing else to get your head right.

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Morgana and Devin: So.

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Morgana and Devin: Please tell us how you approach infidelity.

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CJ: Well, I learned about it viscerally because my ex husband.

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CJ: I found out that he had been unfaithful throughout the marriage, but the final thing that I found out about I didn't know at the time when earlier on, but I found out that he was.

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CJ: Having a fairly long term relationship with a woman that was much younger she was 33 years younger but similar to your dad Devon actually.

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Morgana and Devin: I was about to say I guess you must have heard a little bit about it but yeah I know.

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Morgana and Devin: My my father ended up marrying a woman who is about 3030 plus years younger than he was.

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CJ: yeah and it's a it's a whole generation different, but the thing was that.

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CJ: I obviously felt absolutely devastated at the time it was as if the.

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CJ: The world had collapsed because also I not only had that but very shortly after finding out about my husband's infidelity I was diagnosed with breast cancer, for the second time.

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CJ: So that was a real double whammy and I just felt like the earth has been taken away from underneath my feet, but one of the things that I was really.

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CJ: Strong about was, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't acting on emotions because it's so easy to get revenge driven it's so easy to make poor decisions because you're in an emotional mess and I didn't want to be.

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CJ: Doing that my mantra was that the best revenge is to get past the need for it.

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CJ: I wanted to use this experience as a sort of kick in the pants really to learn how to have my life, be better than it was before.

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CJ: not as good as got better and the funny thing was that it unleashed a whole amount of creativity in me i'm a former BBC journalist i've always been.

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CJ: interested in writing, I love writing I was actually helping my ex with books that he was writing but, once this happened to me I started having writing come out of me like Delhi diarrhea you know it was.

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CJ: You know I just did, and the way that I wrote i've written a book that's one of the books has already been published adulterous wife, how to thrive, whether you stay or not, and it is actually a comedy self help.

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CJ: semi memoir but it's more of a comedy self help book and it's got cartoons in it so i'm looking at it with a sense of the absurd I was brought up on Monty Python and.

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Morgana and Devin: So I tend you're here.

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CJ: Oh yes, yes, I see the world in in a sense of the absurd because Morgan, or if you don't laugh you'll cry and what would you rather do.

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CJ: You know, so that that's that was that was how I began, and how I started to write about it and I interviewed a lot of women.

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CJ: I found out a lot of stories and to be quite frank, I was grateful that my circumstances was so much easier than than women, I spoke to I mean it whatever your circumstances that can always be worse.

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CJ: Like I would say.

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Morgana and Devin: We haven't had that in our relationship um it's kind of a scary topic for me a.

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Morgana and Devin: part of my strategy of getting married so late in life was kind of there's just not a lot of time or energy for that right.

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CJ: Absolutely.

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CJ: You know, if not now, when we have an expiration date, you know get on with it have the LIFE you want.

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Morgana and Devin: So you know I think we got a lot of our really stupid selfish drama out of the way when we were younger.

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Morgana and Devin: But when I was growing up when I was 12 years old, my mother found out that my stepfather was cheating on her and she attempted suicide.

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Morgana and Devin: Oh, my God that like.

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Morgana and Devin: Really deep visceral impact of just how deep that wound is of betrayal.

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Morgana and Devin: And then you have your experience, while you were having drama with your body to.

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Morgana and Devin: So that's that's a lot to process and and feel good about life at the same time, so you're kind of a hero, to me, and I want to, and I want to hear about that right how how because there's obviously multiple layers to all of this, and yes, I want to get to the jokes and the comedy.

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Morgana and Devin: But how did you how did you process that.

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CJ: Well, you know I developed what ended up being a six part program which I can go into more detail now, if you'd like to hear about that.

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CJ: Sure yeah so there was six things that I did, first of all.

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CJ: found confidence and mentors that I could vent to that would give me good advice that had my best interest in heart at heart and.

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CJ: Sometimes people would be seeing a paid counselor or a coach to do that I was fortunate enough to have some good friends, some of whom had coaching experience, who gave me really good advice.

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CJ: And it's always a good idea to have mentors and coaches of both sexes, because you get such a different view from a guy about this subject than you would with a a woman, they.

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CJ: So it's really important to do that and it's important to choose wisely there was one person that I knew.

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CJ: And I realized very soon after I started confiding in him that he was really only after the next episode of the soap opera That was my life at the time.

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CJ: And you know, was very happy to email all my mutual friends about what i'd said, which I was not keen on happening So there you go you do need to choose carefully so The second thing I did was to.

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CJ: cultivate existing and new connections and rebuild my friend circle, because I found that almost all the people I was hanging out with were either friends of my.

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CJ: husband's or people connected with the business that we joined the shared that was based on his expertise and it is not very professional to be venting about your husband to somebody that you're that is part of your joint business you just cannot do that.

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CJ: So I could you try.

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CJ: working for us, I didn't yeah you really test that hypothesis.

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CJ: Right, I tried not to because I didn't want them to have to take sides.

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CJ: And what was really kind of and not so great, was that some of them who had been accompanying him on his when he was doing trainings out of the country.

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CJ: have some idea in their head that well we just had an open relationship on him.

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CJ: He had an open relationship.

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CJ: consensual open.

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CJ: But I didn't want to put anybody in the middle, and I also you know one thing, just to digress was that.

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CJ: One minute a man or a woman if he's if it's a woman that's been unfaithful one minute they're the love of your life.

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CJ: The next minute they're the devil incarnate because you find out that they've been cheating, but really it's the same person, you know somebody who's just a flawed human being with good points that drew you to them in the first place and bad points that may make you now want to leave.

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CJ: So I just think it's a very, very bad idea to demonize.

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CJ: Your partner, and if you start trying to demonize your partner to people that your work that you are both working with professionally that's a really bad idea, you know incredibly bad idea, so.

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Morgana and Devin: begs the question how is your relationship with your ex now.

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CJ: um it is decent, it is not good it I wouldn't say he's a Muslim buddy, but we can talk on the phone because I never wanted to have a situation where.

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CJ: You know, we closed communications and the slightest thing that we had to discuss would have to go through lawyers I don't think so that's not the way to move forward.

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CJ: So I can talk to him, I can sort of talk to his mistress stroke fiance but.

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CJ: She doesn't particularly like me so so be it, but I felt like I needed to cultivate a neutral attitude as much as possible to.

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CJ: To them and try to remember the reason why I was with my ex in the first place, I mean we did have good years.

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CJ: We have two wonderful grown sons and I do not regret what I did I don't regret the relationship because regret is about isn't about the past it's about the present so if you're happy with where you are now you don't regret the past.

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CJ: But it's brought me right to where you are now.

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Morgana and Devin: and regret is sort of like punishing yourself for the adults.

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Morgana and Devin: Right somebody else.

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CJ: out that's right, you know there's this saying.

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CJ: That I read it from carrot in a book by carrie Fisher but then later found out it came from St Augustine.

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CJ: and

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Morgana and Devin: it's about I get them confused all the time, yes, I know they do look the same, but the thing was it's resent it.

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CJ: resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

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CJ: And, in a way revenge is planning revenge is a bit like that it's the same story you turn it around and you're not letting yourself move on, because you're just stuck in that endless dynamic cycle and I just didn't I didn't want to do that.

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Morgana and Devin: Right well.

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CJ: it's a pain is the focus i'm sorry go ahead.

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CJ: yeah yeah so well absolutely and then you know going on to cultivating existing and new connections that was very, very important, because you have to build your circle and I had like like a lot of women who get very involved in their husbands stuff.

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CJ: You know where their husband is a you know, a pretty high level person in their field, as he was.

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CJ: You tend to let your own stuff go, and so I left let my friends go there was one really great friend of mine in in England.

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CJ: who thought that she had done something to offend me because she'd sent me emails and I hadn't responded so I just thought well leave no stone unturned get my old friends back.

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CJ: I reconnected with people who are you know boyfriends and stuff and actually I reconnected with an old boyfriend and we are now still still together as he is my significant other.

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CJ: Despite the fact that he's very far away in London.

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CJ: cove it has not been great for our ability to be together, sadly, but you know it's so important to have your own friends and again friends of both sexes that's how you can move on and that's how you have joy because you're hanging out with your friends.

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Morgana and Devin: And i'm gonna stop for a second with I love what you said about both sexes.

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Morgana and Devin: Because it's very easy for either party to get really bitter.

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Morgana and Devin: about the others, the other sex and they don't seem quite human and you need to have some kind of healthy connection just for your own sanity and to be open and.

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Morgana and Devin: When I first started falling in love with Devon I transformed from this very poise self confident.

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Morgana and Devin: Self collected person into a progressively hot mess.

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Morgana and Devin: Because I liked him.

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CJ: Well yeah I mean when I started dating my.

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CJ: My friend from before you know it was.

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CJ: It was like being a teenager again, you know my middle age, you get into this teenager a thing and it's it's wonderful it's wonderful to be able to do that um.

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Morgana and Devin: it's fun and I found it useful to have a guy to say will Devon did this, what does it mean.

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Morgana and Devin: and have somebody like.

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Morgana and Devin: You know crack the code.

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CJ: Oh right, yes, yes, you know I mean again with me, I was thinking I don't know my it's am I, making a mistake falling for somebody else you know i'm gonna.

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CJ: I remember feeling like I was jumping into an abyss and i'm thinking Oh, this is bound to end in tears, but so far it hasn't this been really very, very nice.

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Morgana and Devin: Did you have were you like talking to your friends, when you were falling in love to just like when you were on rambling.

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CJ: Marriage I didn't until things seemed very stable because.

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CJ: You know how it is you don't want to jinx it I didn't want to say Oh, I met this great guy that I used to know we used to work together and the BBC and blah blah blah and and I really like him, and it is great, and I, you know and then find that it.

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CJ: unraveled I wanted to be sure, and there is this thing that if you say how much you like somebody and and how you want it to continue that somehow it it's sort of like tempting the universe for the thing to crumble.

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CJ: Right wanted to wait for it to be really.

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CJ: solid and, in fact, my sister got really pissed off with me for not telling her and the time that that I was at the beginning, you know.

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Morgana and Devin: How long did it take to get.

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CJ: It didn't take very long, you know within a within just a few months.

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CJ: It was it was pretty fast and one of the things was because we knew each other from before it wasn't a brand new.

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CJ: thing because he had been a friend before and it just.

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CJ: It So if you know somebody and you've known them, even though I hadn't seen him i'd known him for 35 years I hadn't been in contact with him for probably about 30 of those years.

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CJ: When I saw him again, but we had common ground we use the same people and it wasn't like you were dating a stranger and trying to get in there and have things work, I mean in your case morgana.

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CJ: Was devin a friend before he became you know your significant other or was he just somebody that you started dating first.

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Morgana and Devin: he's somebody I found on a dating out.

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Morgana and Devin: Really yeah.

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CJ: God, how can you get such good quality stuff on a dating.

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Morgana and Devin: Joe I wanted to say something about and i've told this story before.

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Morgana and Devin: That my intention was when I.

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Morgana and Devin: joined the dating APP I thought there was zero chance and absolute zero chance that I would be dating anybody from that or meeting anybody have any quality at all.

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Morgana and Devin: So I had, I had the plan was okay i'll sign up for the dating APP and I would be there by telling the universe that i'm now ready to be dating and I would see her at the library or the market or the bank or something and then I fall in love there.

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Morgana and Devin: But not on a dating APP so that is beyond.

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Morgana and Devin: Any any concept at all, because I was certain we'd go out on a date, and I think well, maybe she'll be at the the woman, that I was intending to be with maybe she'll be at the at the restaurant when.

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Morgana and Devin: I looked at the photos that he chose for the dating APP you would see that he had zero intention.

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Morgana and Devin: I think I just made, I think I just picked a random six photographs and threw them up.

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CJ: There wasn't.

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Morgana and Devin: You know, there was some thought process like I want to repel women right now let them know how cute I am.

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Morgana and Devin: right that was really my sincere hope but you know what are you going to do.

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CJ: You failed Devon I failed I failed I failed my way six six to success, which is something that which I really identify with so I wanted to ask you, when you started dating your bow mm hmm.

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Morgana and Devin: Are you wiser now.

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Morgana and Devin: Are you different than when you chose.

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Morgana and Devin: The the former guy.

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CJ: Absolutely, I mean I one of the things that I was really not looking forward to when my marriage crumbled was getting back into the dating game.

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Morgana and Devin: Because I absolutely.

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CJ: hated it I hated it with a vengeance, because when I was younger I just couldn't I just it just didn't work well, for me, I was I wasn't confident in my looks I.

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CJ: would get if there was a guy that I really liked I would get tongue tied and I wouldn't really know what to say.

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CJ: i'd need to have I don't drink anything now i'm teetotal, as they say in Britain, which is very unusual for a Brit, let me tell you, but I used to not be able to talk to a guy on this, I was a wee bit tipsy.

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CJ: When I was younger because I needed that Dutch courage if you know the meaning of that expression.

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CJ: But I also look so young, I was flat chested I was sure I didn't have any glamour my sister was the glamorous one and not me.

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CJ: You know um, and so I was just not confident and I didn't really end up having a great time dating and I didn't couldn't deal with the Games playing and.

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CJ: Playing hard to get, and all this kind of crap it just didn't do it for me, so I was expecting it to be awful really awful but I was very pleasantly surprised because.

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CJ: I was being asked out by all kinds of people, I mean a lot of them were people I didn't have any great desire to go out with but it's very flattering.

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CJ: You know, when you think wow i'm a middle aged woman in you know approaching my.

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CJ: Sixth decade and these people think they want to go out with me and some of them are even younger than I am and gold, I was really surprised, you know, and it was it actually was a blast it really was a blast and part of it is.

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CJ: As you get older you just have more life experience you're more confident in your own skin you've got things to talk about.

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CJ: And one of the things that I came out with from that six part program that I haven't quite finished rabbiting on about.

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CJ: It the whole point of it was to make me feel more complete and more sort of creative and joyful as a human being on my own and so that, with a with a partner i'd be feeling complete and.

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CJ: I think that's key if you feel like you, are complete, rather than absolutely desperate to have a guy or a woman if if that's your inclination to to complete you if you feel you aren't complete without a partner, then you end up being very needy and you are probably attracting.

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CJ: The wrong kind of people to have something be a successful relationship so Oh, it was so much better, I was really midlife dating was so much better.

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CJ: And the other thing was you don't take any crap you don't have to play games, you are what you are they are what they are, I don't give a shit if you, you know, have a dental plate, whatever the hell, it is you know.

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CJ: I don't give a shit you know that's fine you know and don't mind if I fart and all of this kind of you sort of earthy and normal and you don't have to put up a huge.

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CJ: facade of how perfect you are because nobody's perfect they aren't perfect you aren't perfect, but you have to enjoy each other's imperfections.

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Morgana and Devin: Well, I think it's what you just described in my humble opinion is incredibly liberating I think you know as you were talking about you know i'm not a huge fan of the aging process.

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Morgana and Devin: I want my 20 year old niece back, I want you know there's a whole lot of little things that I want in terms of what youth is but in terms of the way I see the world.

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Morgana and Devin: I wouldn't rather I would not want to be anywhere else.

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Morgana and Devin: Absolutely, because.

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Morgana and Devin: Because really once you started, you know you're talking about partying and other kinds of things like that.

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Morgana and Devin: it's like.

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Morgana and Devin: All that stuff is like oh right it's fine right it's like we're fine it's there's nothing to be concerned about and so with each thing that you sort of like allow to fall by the wayside, the rest of my world becomes much lighter.

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CJ: Absolutely, I have to say that the other day, I came across a diary I wrote when I was 15 and I was shocked.

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CJ: I was such a shallow vacuous person in there, I mean I wouldn't have wanted to date me I was sort of I mean it's all about you know concerned about boys and appearance and.

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CJ: This friends done this and that friends done that, and and I was mean to friends, but I would be pissed off if they were mean to me and equally if a guy was.

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CJ: hitting on me that I didn't like I wouldn't be particularly nice to him in brushing them off and yet I would be very upset and hurt if if if another guy that I did fancy did the same thing to me and.

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CJ: You know it's funny I didn't realize that I was that person, when I was 15 and I am so glad that I no longer Am I.

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Morgana and Devin: You know it's funny you should bring that up, I have a briefcase up in a closet and in the briefcase is all of this poetry that I wrote.

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Morgana and Devin: were at the moment I was writing it i'm literally first off i'm drunk that was probably 15 drunk 15 and chain smoking and writing this stuff out that I was certain was brilliant that was deep deep and insightful things about the world about myself and it's the worst garbage.

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Morgana and Devin: it's really like I should put it together as just hey please I want I was hoping to humiliate myself my dad right just put a big staple through the whole thing and send it off for all the world to laugh.

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CJ: How have you allowed morgana to see it.

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Morgana and Devin: You know I haven't because.

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CJ: it's not something I don't I don't sit and pine over it very often.

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Morgana and Devin: But once every great while I, like you know when i'm not feeling well i'll open it up and i'm like Oh well, whoever that idiot was you're not him congratulations and then it's time to close the briefcase for another year or two.

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Morgana and Devin: But yeah i'm happy to her see it it's it's it's really it's amazing how we evolve.

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CJ: And all right.

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Morgana and Devin: yeah no, it was humiliating absolute absolute garbage but I remember at the time how incredibly important.

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Morgana and Devin: These thoughts were to write down and to put them down on paper.

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Morgana and Devin: so that you could laugh about so I can brag about it yeah and writing about a girl that if my life depended on it, I couldn't tell you who it was.

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Morgana and Devin: But at that moment, if she had only seen the real me then all would be fine and you know, not the case.

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CJ: wow so let me go on with my six part program because and.

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CJ: that's why we agree.

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CJ: This is the third one laughter therapy because That to me is one of the most important ones, having been reared on a diet of Monty Python as we, as I said earlier.

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CJ: And I made sure I hang out with people who brought me out rather than made me feel down.

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CJ: Inside me there was some relative a particular relative whom I will not mentioned by name, who was very happy with hanging out with me when I was miserable but didn't really seem was happy with me when I was happy so and and she also seemed to.

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CJ: criticize and demonize my spouse way more than I would have done and I didn't find that helpful at all, so I hung out with people who brought me up rather than down.

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CJ: I gave up watching depressing stuff I only watch comedies I don't know whether you've seen that movie by with reese witherspoon called wild I was invited to go and see that.

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CJ: And it's supposed to be a great movie but I found out it's all about a woman dealing with depression what she's doing the Pacific CREST.

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Morgana and Devin: She was one of my teachers.

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Morgana and Devin: Oh cheryl strayed I went to went to antioch university and.

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Morgana and Devin: wow um.

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CJ: But you know I thought, no, I do not want to see a film about somebody dealing with depression when i'm dealing with stuff that makes me feel depressed so I didn't I didn't do it, I didn't you're.

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CJ: kind to yourself yeah and and the other thing that I stopped doing, even though I was a BBC journalist and I covered a lot of news I always used to listen to the news I gave up listening to the news because it's always bad news, you know I mean.

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CJ: nothing's happened in your location everything's good everything's fine well that's boring that's not news nobody's going to cover that they'll cover the one shooting or the one murder or.

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CJ: You know the war over here or whatever it is, and it's just depressing as hell, so I gave up listening to the news.

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CJ: And I think that was better.

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CJ: To do that, for me.

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Morgana and Devin: So i'm.

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Morgana and Devin: Any favorite movies or TV shows for picking us up.

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CJ: Oh well, I mean Monty Python always does that.

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CJ: And I do like.

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CJ: comedy cyphy there's one that's a British SCI fi comedy that you may or may not know because it's not that available over here it's called red dwarf, and what I like about it is that the the main characters are all completely incompetent and one of them is is is a total arrogant incompetent.

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CJ: asshole you know and it's very I found it very, very funny and very cleverly written, so I I went for I like that kind of stuff I like snarky humor and.

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CJ: Just comedy that that's that that's what I what I found and, of course, all of them Monty Python movies, particularly life of Brian which pay for it, you know you know.

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CJ: Very naughty boy.

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CJ: My favorite so i've always loved loved them and the Monty Python team, and so that that definitely was my.

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Morgana and Devin: fat and the undertone of always look on the bright side of life.

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Morgana and Devin: Absolutely right.

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CJ: yeah and you know, despite the fact that that got an awful lot of flack I mean they were pillorying Brian and not Jesus, so I thought it was good, I really liked that film, I thought it was very, very cleverly done.

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Morgana and Devin: I think that if you write comedy and don't get somebody offended then it may not be good comedy.

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CJ: that's true absolutely true you've always got to have somebody be in the crosshairs.

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Morgana and Devin: And they're they're so smart it's such intellectual comedy and I think that's.

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Morgana and Devin: Why it's so timeless.

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Morgana and Devin: it's not.

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Morgana and Devin: A fad it's like I saw them at the Hollywood bowl when I was 14 I still have my philosopher song poster I mean who writes a comedy song about philosophers that's just weird and that's why I love it.

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Morgana and Devin: yeah.

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CJ: You can have the summarizing Proust contest to remember that that was funny but I, one of the things that I did was I went to the it was the ot Center in Britain, where they had, I think the last reunion that they probably are going to do, and it was sadly Terry Jones last.

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CJ: appearance in public, I believe.

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CJ: Before he got that horrible case of of alzheimer's that robbed him of his voice, and I think and then he he died not too long after.

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CJ: But, but it was great, even though I knew the scripts and even though I knew exactly what they were going to say it was still fantastic, and I was so glad that I did that I stay I.

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CJ: Actually, delayed my chemo treatment to be able, because I booked this ticket way back and I delayed my chemo treat treatment, so I can be in England.

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CJ: see my boyfriend and go to that show, then I went back to the two I went back to California and had the chemo but I certainly wasn't going to miss that that show.

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Morgana and Devin: I heard.

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Morgana and Devin: Years ago, some doctors, saying that the power of laughter is so essential for the immune system.

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Morgana and Devin: Absolutely, so, if you like, you gave yourself the medicine you needed.

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CJ: yeah and they also have that laughter yoga the Indian laughter yoga which.

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CJ: I mean I didn't do anything like that, because you're sort of forcing a laugh and that's supposed to but it probably does the same things because I read that there are studies, where.

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CJ: Even if you're feeling depressed if you go around smiling it lifts your mood because a good mood makes you smile, but a smile also creates a good mood is very bizarre but So if you sort of feel down and you go around smiling it actually helps lift your spirits.

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Morgana and Devin: And maybe because it's a neurological anchor.

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CJ: yeah yeah.

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Morgana and Devin: very interesting.

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CJ: yeah so.

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Morgana and Devin: So number one is coffee Johnson mentors number one.

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CJ: cultivate existing and new connections to rebuild your friend Community number two laughter therapy number three number four is really important it's.

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CJ: loving your body and becoming beautiful, and by that I don't mean you're going to be a supermodel in a couple weeks, I mean you know sleep enough.

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CJ: eat well don't eat crap eat well and exercise is really key I found that when I was feeling really down just outdoor exercise would bring my mood up.

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CJ: And I remember having a friend who was going through a similar situation with her on faithful partner, and she didn't even want to leave the House and I said.

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CJ: you've got if you do one thing go out in nature walk for maybe even 20 minutes in nature, every day you'll feel better and she forced herself to do that, and it did lift her mood there was no question so.

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CJ: You know, you need to love it's part of loving yourself if you love yourself, then you look after your body.

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CJ: And you it's a shame that that stereotype of a depressed woman who's just been left by her guy is this is this lady lying in bed spooning the ice cream from a tub and watching TV, you know watching show after show after show on TV and feeling depressed because.

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Morgana and Devin: Hopefully comedy shows.

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CJ: Well yeah but even if you're just lying in bed spooning the ice cream and not moving around and just staying there it's not going to really lift your spirits as much as if you just get out and move.

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CJ: get out of the House, see people move find some nature to walk around, and I think that's key it's so important and force yourself to do it because you may not want to do it if you're really down in the dumps, but I think that.

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CJ: If you force yourself just every day 15 minutes 20 minutes just that will make a difference, so so that's number four.

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CJ: number five was to find my passion and become more of a hedonist because.

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CJ: A lot of women who are in long term marriages when you've had a business together and rich children together and all of that you end up being you know I had my nose to the grindstone most of the time, I did not make time for myself.

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CJ: I realized I hadn't and so you find something you enjoy whatever it is, and do it and I don't mean that you have to give up your day job and see if you can make a living playing the banjo or whatever it is.

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CJ: Because you probably won't but make time if the banjo is your passion make time to learn it and play it and enjoy it and.

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CJ: Also volunteer if you have some cause that you're really passionate about that's that's absolutely key.

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Morgana and Devin: What if you use the word hedonism, what is your definition of hedonism because I don't think you're saying we should all just go and join plato's retreat, which was a.

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Morgana and Devin: Great swing thing and the 17th.

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CJ: Right I don't mean I just think that you should be partially hedonistic as an antidote to the sort of In Britain we call it the Protestant ethic I don't know if you're familiar with that term where you just well your work hard to earn a living, and you know notice the.

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CJ: stiff upper lip and.

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CJ: You know that's how life should be led you know, no, no, make time for yourself to do stuff you enjoy.

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CJ: And he did ISM is part of it, because if you allow yourself to be hedonistic rather than thinking oh I shouldn't be doing this, I should really be working I mean I really need to do this, I really need to do that, no, you need to be.

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CJ: living a little bit for enjoyment, you know eat something cuz it tastes good and you love it do it do something really silly spend money on clothes, if you really feel if you if you want to that's hedonistic you don't need to spend all your money on on Nice clothing.

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CJ: You know yeah he didn't it's I don't mean that you should run down the street naked and give up a normal lifestyle or anything like that, although you could, if you feel like it if that makes you feel better right, you know who knows, but.

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CJ: I just think that, in some ways, yes, you should embrace your in a hedonist because most people most women in long term marriages, have not done that, for decades, so I think it's important.

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Morgana and Devin: i'm going to pause you for a second cuz.

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Morgana and Devin: So it sounds like it's about like finding your love for life again.

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Morgana and Devin: area and yeah like I think you talked about in for loving your body, because this is what you've got.

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Morgana and Devin: And that so that leads to.

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Morgana and Devin: You know, enjoying enjoying the pleasure of life and and kind of everything you're talking about sounds to me like coming alive again.

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CJ: Absolutely, and one of the problems with certainly I found it and i'm sure i'm not the only one, is that you sort of supplement your personality in the marriage and in the guy and it sort of squashed and.

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CJ: I lost I lost my sense of humor to there was a really ironic comment that he made to me that that brought it to mind my ex actually told me.

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CJ: Comparing his girlfriend the mistress to me, he said she's so much more inherently joyful than you.

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CJ: give her time.

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CJ: And, and I realized.

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CJ: Yes, that's absolutely true, but the reason is because you squeezed the joy out of me, and I am not that he's an evil man, but that was just what happened that was just the dynamic of our.

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CJ: of how our relationship had.

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CJ: gone.

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Morgana and Devin: And losing losing ourselves in a relationship is a young woman thing to do.

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Morgana and Devin: Like yes, I did it and you know every once in a while there's some amazing woman who gets it early and I wasn't her and you weren't her and we right.

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Morgana and Devin: yeah so, but now you get to be your amazing self.

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CJ: that's right and it's funny because when we separated my my ex and I, and I went to see some old friends of mine in London.

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CJ: And they said oh wow it's like we've got the old cj back because I was you know laughing and having a good time and making jokes and it was just different I wasn't just constantly.

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CJ: You know, talking about stuff to do with him and just not very forthcoming with anything about me so so yeah it's it's really common you've got to get your personality back you've got to make sure you're you, and not just an appendage of somebody else.

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Morgana and Devin: And I would also say it's it's not really your fault, you were raised, we were all raised with TV and movies and culture telling us to be a good wife.

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CJ: Right, it was yeah.

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CJ: That was part of the stereotype and then the final thing that I had in my plan was to do with the fact that the past is gone the future doesn't exist so.

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CJ: I wanted to stop myself churning about what happened in the past, well, if I had done it this way, maybe it would have been different, and why didn't I do that, and all of that and.

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CJ: Oh now what am I going to do and how are things going to turn out and what am I going to live on and and how's it going to be and where, am I going to live and.

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CJ: I didn't want to be churning because all you have is now.

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CJ: You really have nothing but now, so I worked at trying to live in the present and become more mindful and that's much harder than it sounds that's probably the hardest of the.

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CJ: Six things but very, very important, because if all you're doing is is.

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CJ: running the problems of the past in your head or worrying about the future, you really aren't living your sort of existing you're not living because you're not really present.

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CJ: In what is right in front of your nose and so many people live like that, even if they've never had a cheating partner it's it's a common problem, and I wanted to try to get out of that because you know here you are in a gorgeous place.

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CJ: And you're not even enjoying it, because your mind is full of other stuff you're not thinking about a whole wow this is beautiful know you're worrying about something else it's a shame it's not not how life should be lived.

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Morgana and Devin: You gave an example because you work with women I and maybe men too because men get betrayed and left to right, but you had an example of a client who had a very dramatic response to betrayal do you want to share that.

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CJ: yeah I heard about a man who was so angry with his wife, for being unfaithful that he filled her car with concrete, he was a contractor.

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CJ: And you know, everybody laughs when I tell that story, it does make you chuckle but where do you go from there, you know it's not.

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CJ: A situation where you're going to be able to have a good reconciliation it's going to be a situation instead where you're going to have an expensive acrimonious divorce and you'll be in.

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CJ: a space where, for example, even if you want to discuss things like custody of the children, how do you do that, after after having that kind of example.

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CJ: There you know and what kind of role model you seeming to be when to your children when you're treating their wife or their mother like that, so you know.

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CJ: There are all these wonderful revenge strategies that sound really great when you hear about them, I heard it the other way around, where the wife was so pissed off.

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CJ: With a husband, for having an affair, with his Secretary that while he was at work she sold his prized sports car for $10 on craigslist.

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CJ: You know I mean, but then, if they were going to get divorced, that would have been part of the.

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CJ: amount of the assets that they would have divided so she was actually cutting off your nose to spite your face with that connection.

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CJ: So you know people don't really think when you've got that emotional rollercoaster going and your event driven you start having behavior and actions that really do not serve you.

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CJ: And so, one, let me just say one of the things that I had to.

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CJ: had to do when I was going through this when I was in that sort of roller coaster period I had to whatever I wanted to do, I had to stop and first ask myself is this serving my own long term best interests, because that really is the most important thing.

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Morgana and Devin: very smart and it's so funny that your two stories are about cars, because you were just talking about moving forward.

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Morgana and Devin: Right and you.

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Morgana and Devin: can't when you're moving.

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Morgana and Devin: yeah.

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Morgana and Devin: How I just remember in my.

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Morgana and Devin: i'm sorry go ahead.

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CJ: yeah I was just saying you know, the only people that gained from that all the divorce, lawyers and they love it catching the more disagreements, the more bad behavior you know, the more money, the lawyers make in the divorce.

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Morgana and Devin: yeah absolutely um you know I just remember having it and I did a lot of the things my last breakup that I went through.

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Morgana and Devin: I did most of the things that you talked about I kind of you know, quite literally, there was a point where she's like okay i'm i'm leaving.

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Morgana and Devin: And there was a point like right after that, where it was like there's you know I tried everything every kind of conversation, and she was like Well, no, and so, at some point, it was just no and I remember her standing up and saying, can I have a hug.

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Morgana and Devin: And I remember thinking to myself, no, I want to punch you in your face and then, of course, I remember hearing a friend of mines voice in my head, who said, you know if you love somebody you want what they want, even if it's not you.

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Morgana and Devin: When.

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Morgana and Devin: And so I hugged her and then she walked down the this we had at the time we had a long hallway and she was kind of pulling the suitcases the rolling suitcases down the hallway.

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Morgana and Devin: And you know the same voice popped in my head, because you know, a gentleman would help her with their suitcases.

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Morgana and Devin: And that's what I did I thought, let me grab those and I walked her to the car she popped the trunk I threw I put the you know the suitcases in and she drove away and that was literally, the last time I saw her now.

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Morgana and Devin: wow it's been you know, certainly a decade.

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Morgana and Devin: Did.

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CJ: It for somebody else.

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Morgana and Devin: Well here's the thing I don't know because part of the conversations that I had with because I initially spoke with men who were very much like hey have you have you made your bed no go make your bed and give me a call and I go make the bed, have you did you do your dishes no.

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Morgana and Devin: Go do your dishes give me a call and then said well i'll come get you will go for coffee.

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Morgana and Devin: And then we do that, and probably about a month in I started speaking to sort of like the women and the women were great because.

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Morgana and Devin: You know men were very pragmatic and very logical about the stuff and like Okay, did you pay your bills and that kind of thing and women were like she's a bitch.

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Morgana and Devin: Where does she live i'm going to go over there and kick her ass.

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CJ: God that was use, I mean in many ways that's.

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CJ: kind of not helpful, I will do is it, but what I would say is.

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Morgana and Devin: Is there was a point when I had to start communicating because she had more things at the House and things like that, and the women were like I hate her she's a bitch and then I write a letter.

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Morgana and Devin: To like they'd say well when you're going to reach out to her show me the letter.

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Morgana and Devin: And then I would write the letter and they would you know i'd hear back, is it yeah that's your letter is right on you're not going to send that letter you can say, Thursday, at three is good.

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Morgana and Devin: You know, and things like that, like we kept it straight to, and so, while it wasn't probably in the big picture useful in the litter, in the little picture.

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Morgana and Devin: It was what I needed on that emotional support you, we love you on that level.

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Morgana and Devin: On that level and, when it came down to sort of like here's my opportunity to punish her through a letter they were not going to have any of it that's why they kept it like okay yeah Thursday three is fine thanks.

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CJ: Right yeah I mean and that's what you need you need good friends who can help you through and there's no substitute for that you should.

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Morgana and Devin: We met six months later wow.

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CJ: We met six months later.

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CJ: This lady did you a favor morgana.

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Morgana and Devin: I am by existing yeah well, of course, I mean at some point, you know a lot of the conversations i've actually had and i'm sure you probably had similar conversations.

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Morgana and Devin: Is that it really doesn't matter what the other person's doing, I have to live with my own future behavior with inside of the relationship, and if the relationship doesn't work out i'm practicing for the next relationship.

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Morgana and Devin: Because, ultimately, I.

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Morgana and Devin: want to be part of a partnership now, I have to work at it and maintain it and.

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Morgana and Devin: You know, be loving and all those kinds of things and, if I have a bunch of feelings that I have to you know, I have to start discussing them with my wife, I mean for the most part, we have a very open, honest relationship, but it's not open as in seeing other P, no not.

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Morgana and Devin: be abundantly clear.

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Morgana and Devin: yeah it was not part of the opening.

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Morgana and Devin: Part of our thing.

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CJ: I think most people aren't gonna have that work it doesn't work that well, and certainly not for women.

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Morgana and Devin: I don't think I really don't think it really works for anything I mean actually a woman, that a fellow writer that I know wrote a book.

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Morgana and Devin: called open it was about her successful long term.

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Morgana and Devin: Open relationship and as more was revealed after the book became very popular here, and she appeared on all of these shows it really turned out that.

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Morgana and Devin: That her relationship, in other words the husband like she was good, with the open relationship, the husband, on the other hand, was absolutely not okay and went with it for as long as he could until it was like Okay, good luck and.

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Morgana and Devin: I relations relationship which is.

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CJ: me yeah one person wants to do it the other person is doing it in order to keep the.

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Morgana and Devin: The other person happy right.

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CJ: yeah because otherwise it's either I put up with this or I have to not be with this person, and I would rather be with this person and not be with this person.

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CJ: But if you ask them would you rather be with this person without the open relationship, more often than not they're going to say oh God, yes, I do not really want an open relationship.

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CJ: And it's funny because, in my adulterous wife book i've got a cartoon i've had plenty of cartoons in there, but one cartoon is called group sex and it's two people having sex you can't actually see anybody part so it's it's moderately clean.

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Morgana and Devin: Okay PG 13.

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CJ: PG 13 but you know adultery and infidelity is about sex, so you have to talk about it, you can't not talk about it in a book about adultery and and.

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CJ: But anyway, so these two people having sex and you've got these thought bubbles, and both of them are thinking about other people and the the heading again of that cartoon is group sex.

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CJ: And the thing is it's very hard to be fully present to the person that you're making love with if you are.

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CJ: Really spending a lot of time making love to other people I just don't think you can be fully present and if you're not fully present it's more like having sex than making love that's just the way it is and that's my view, some people might disagree, but that's my view.

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Morgana and Devin: Well, I mean, I think I think the joy of all this is that if we keep having these kinds of conversations because, because the imperfection of humanity will persist, do you know what I mean no matter what, no matter what we say or do.

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Morgana and Devin: there's going to be some sort of an office thing there's going to be, you know what I mean there's just.

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CJ: So many reasons.

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CJ: yeah.

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Morgana and Devin: For so many reasons but, more importantly, the more we become conscious of our choices or decisions, the more likely we are at not to repeat those kinds of mistakes.

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Morgana and Devin: Right and put our selves through the trauma or put somebody else to the trauma.

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CJ: One of the problems, though, in terms of the increased amount of infidelity that's happening now is simply longevity as we live longer and also now that we have these ED drugs, so that a guy can keep bonking until he kicks the bucket.

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Basically.

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CJ: You know, it opens the door for more infidelity and it also opens the door for more dissatisfaction within a marriage.

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CJ: Because obviously you know if there are imperfections in a marriage, the longer that marriage the marriage goes on for the more glaring those imperfections may be.

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CJ: And the more temptations there may be to to stray and be with other partners so so that's something that maybe is is more from art for our era of a more longevity and the drugs, as I said then say it was in the 1950s.

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CJ: era.

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Morgana and Devin: Sure that's interesting I hadn't thought of that in my family everybody gets it much better on the second go round, so my grandmother got remarried when she was in her 40s and they were passionately in love till the day she died when she was roughly 9192 nobody's really quite circle.

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Morgana and Devin: because she chose the right person they drove each other crazy, but they were more in love than annoyed so and they just did whatever it took to make it work out um.

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Morgana and Devin: that's really interesting though, about the longevity because yeah people used to date 42 it's a lot easier to you know, have one job in one relationship.

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CJ: And the sex stopped you know guys would no longer It reminds me of the very first one of the very first interviews I did for the.

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Morgana and Devin: Oral sex didn't start my grandmother would say.

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CJ: Oh well, that's that's true yeah, that is true, but I was just gonna say, one of the very first interviews I did for the BBC I was I interviewed a stripper who was doing a show in the area that I was based.

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CJ: I thought she was going to be interesting, but she wasn't that interesting.

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CJ: She just told me about all the guys that she was having sex with and all of this and I went to I went to the show I just saw the first half.

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CJ: And there was this old guy next to me, and this was in Bristol where they have a very thick sort of long john silver type accident and he goes to me, he says Oh, you only come zero because I can't get it up, no longer you know.

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CJ: Of course, it was the days before by agra so so you know I mean that was what what those guys did, but they weren't out there having sex with other people, they were just maybe you know going to a strip show or something like that.

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Morgana and Devin: So we're we're getting close to the end of our time, do you have any advice on how to make the relationship continue to work with these newer challenges like longevity Internet the blue pill, do you have any tips.

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CJ: I think it is really to do with how complete you feel on your own and how complete your partner feels on his own because I think the more individual dysfunction there is, the more you have problems.

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CJ: I would say it's the same kind of thing that I said in the six part plan.

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CJ: Having your own friends being able to love being able to love with your partner that's very important having a great sense of humor together.

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CJ: living in the present enjoying things together, enjoying the outdoors together and trying to read to make your passion stay passionate you do have to work at that, but it is doable you make dates, you have to think about being romantic and not just let sex happen, you need to sort of.

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CJ: create a sense of celebration around around sex and being together and then you'll find that the spark continues.

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CJ: You sort of almost have to say okay we're not going to talk about taxes we're not going to talk about repairing the House we're going to talk about us and our wonderful relationship, you know in bed and have fun.

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CJ: You know, take away the things that are passion killers.

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CJ: From the time that you are putting into having a passionate relationship together, you do have to work at it, because it's very easy.

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CJ: To get stuck into a sort of mundane existence and let passion dissolve and that's a shame, because we can all we can all make it survive and life is so much better with passion.

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Morgana and Devin: I agree with you 100% that's why we're getting married 100 times in 100 countries.

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CJ: Right, I think that's so romantic.

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CJ: You know it's just great.

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Morgana and Devin: Thank you so.

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Morgana and Devin: cj grace is the author of adulterers wife, how to thrive, whether you stay or not her mantra is the best revenge is to get past the need for it, I love that, and you can learn more by visiting adulterers wife.com is that where we would find your six steps to go deeper.

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CJ: that's right, and I also have a free mini ebook called overcoming and fidelity tools to tame the roller coaster of negative emotions and there's a little button on my homepage where you can click and get hold of that.

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CJ: And if you can't spell adulterous wife.com because actually in retrospect it's a terrible name for website.

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CJ: there's also a there's a porn site that is spelt differently, that means the opposite that's a you know adulterous wife in the way I spell it is the wife of somebody who has been committing.

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Morgana and Devin: adultery, we will I.

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CJ: promise we have the.

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Morgana and Devin: link and the correct.

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Morgana and Devin: spelling in the show notes.

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CJ: And you.

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Morgana and Devin: Know give you a link.

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CJ: To again direct link for the the free mini ebook and.

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Morgana and Devin: That into Google, my name is cj grace.

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CJ: you'll find me, and you can find me on clubhouse where i've got an overgrowth overcoming infidelity club, and I do.

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CJ: presentations there so so just Google cj grace or cj grace infidelity don't worry about not being able to spell adulterous wife and you'll find me I do also have a second website rent a Brit calm, which I do.

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CJ: voiceovers and British blogs and and sort of prototype.

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Morgana and Devin: You did a very.

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Morgana and Devin: spot on Monty Python.

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Morgana and Devin: Oh yes.

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Morgana and Devin: Okay excellent Thank you so much cj.

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CJ: All right, well it's been a real pleasure to to chat with you both Thank you very much for inviting me to be a guest.