Fighting for the Homestead: Legal Battles and Land Patents

[00:03] Speaker 1: Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Hey. Hey. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Welcome, welcome, welcome, everybody. Thank you to- for showing up for another session of Barz Rise. Uh, I am Michael Dean, your host, and tonight we're going to continue our discussions with Mike and Leah, and the homesteading process. First, I wanna apologize to everybody for, uh, for being late tonight on the air. Uh, I've been working last week or so on some papers, night and day, uh, and trying to help Mike and Leah, and, uh, I got sidetracked ab- because of those. But we're back, and tonight we're finally going to get into some details about what Mike and Leah have been going through personally. Uh, we didn't want to, to start talking about that for, for various reasons, but, uh, I- we all feel that, uh, Mike and Leah are ready to do that now.

[02:38] Speaker 1: So, um, tonight is gonna be a two-hour show, because Mike and Leah have so much to add, and then next week I'm gonna have a special guest, also with Mike and Leah, and hopefully one other, uh, but tonight it's just Mike and Leah and myself. So without, without any further ado, Mike and Leah, welcome to the show again.

[03:02] Speaker 2: Hi, Michael, thanks for having us.

[03:04] Speaker 3: Hey, Michael.

[03:06] Speaker 1: Hey. Always a pleasure with you guys. Always a pleasure. So, last week we were getting into some detail about, um, some of the Supreme Court decisions that, that really were, were helpful, and at some point we would like to continue that conversation and also get into phase two. But right now I'd like to take this opportunity with this two-hour show that we have, um, and get into the details of what you guys have been doing. So, let's first go back in history, uh, a few months ago, I think back in February, March sometime, we did a show. It was the three of us as well as Kelli and Robin, uh, from the Awakening Wave show, and we talked about their experiences going to one of your foreclosures. And then we haven't gotten into detail about your, your process in defending your two homesteads, right? You, you have two going, not just one. So tonight, let's try to pick it up from there. I know a lot has happened. There's a lot to chew, but we have two hours and step by step.

[04:18] Speaker 1: So, after a- and I, the- let me just say to, to the audience, new listeners, if you want, that show that we did is on the BBS show page for, uh, Barz Rise. I'm sure you'll be able to find it if you wish. Um, but Mike and Leah, so after that foreclosure, right, we pretty much wrapped it up on that show. Where do you wanna pick up from there? Why don't you start us off?

[04:49] Speaker 2: Well after, so that was, I believe, April 24th, um-

[04:55] Speaker 3: Correct.

[04:55] Speaker 2: ... and so then, yep, so then after the sale, uh, the redemption period ended October 24th, I believe it was.

[05:06] Speaker 3: Yep.

[05:06] Speaker 2: Yeah. So after the re-

[05:07] Speaker 1: Okay.

[05:07] Speaker 2: Yep. Go ahead.

[05:08] Speaker 1: I'm sorry, e- so that's a great ... Thank you. That's a great place to start. Redemption period. What is that?

[05:17] Speaker 2: So you have-

[05:17] Speaker 1: Because-

[05:18] Speaker 2: Uh, okay so after the-

[05:19] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I, I'm saying, uh, w- what is that, because I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that don't know about the foreclosure process, and you obviously are (laughs) are practically experts on it now. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[05:30] Speaker 2: Okay. So after the sale, you still have, uh, six months to, you know, make it right or make a deal with them, um, even after, even after the sale. So if we had decided we wanted, oh, we wanted to back out or whatever, we still h- we had six months to try to work it out with the bank.

[05:51] Speaker 3: Work it out, pay off that, that, whatever, whatever it might, might be. Um, l- lots, most, I would say most, um, foreclosures have six months, but there are certain properties such as farmland, agricultural land-... um, things of that nature, that you do have a year redemption period, so it is a little bit longer-

[06:14] Speaker 1: Okay.

[06:14] Speaker 3: ... um, for agricultural property.

[06:16] Speaker 1: Thank you for that, and I'll also add that this redemption period and the process is driven by state law. So, it may vary from state to state. Um, I strongly recommend that you guys look into, uh, that whole process before you decide to, to stop paying your mortgage and take on this fight. Right? It's better to go into it knowing what to expect than to, to learn as you go. Okay, I'm sorry. Go ahead, uh, Leah. So, the redemption per- period came and went, and then what?

[06:49] Speaker 2: Um, so then, uh, let's see. I'm trying to think back. We got a letter probably sometime in November, right?

[06:57] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[06:58] Speaker 2: I'm trying to... Yeah.

[06:59] Speaker 3: Yeah. It was probably early November-

[07:00] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[07:00] Speaker 3: ... right after that.

[07:02] Speaker 2: Um...

[07:03] Speaker 3: Redemption period. Right after it ended-

[07:05] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[07:05] Speaker 3: ... then we got a letter saying that it's, it's over. Like, it's... Your redemption period's over, and now it's time. We're gonna... They're gonna start the process, the eviction process.

[07:18] Speaker 2: And they had... There's the sheriff's deed and all of that was recorded. I think they recorded that sometime in May, but they said it went into effect, I think, by the 27th. So, just a few days later, um, they said that it... you know, we had no rights. But we're still here.

[07:35] Speaker 1: So, if, if I could just... I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[07:39] Speaker 2: No, that's it. Go ahead.

[07:41] Speaker 1: So, i- if I could just fill in something. Uh, so, at the foreclosure, y- the, the bidders don't actually buy the property. They buy what's called paper. They buy the mortgage. They have the right to foreclose. So, uh, it's all on paper. Y- y- you're allowed to... As the homeowner, you're allowed to buy back that paper if you give the bank whatever they say is due, plus additional interest and fees and blah, blah, blah. But then, the sheriff's deed is given after that foreclosure, but it's held in abeyance kind of. Like, it's just out there. It doesn't mature yet. You can't enforce it yet. But at the end of the ex- uh, that redemption period, whatever it is, like Michael said, six months, a year, whatever it is, then it becomes effective. And that's when they can start looking to evict you and start that whole legal process. So, that's where Leah just, just left us off. Okay. Michael, anything you want to add?

[08:44] Speaker 3: Um, I would like to just back it up a, uh, just a little bit, because at that, uh, April 24th, uh, date-

[08:51] Speaker 1: Uh-huh.

[08:51] Speaker 3: ... the foreclosure date, there was no purchaser. Nobody did buy that paper. Um, so there... It did not switch hands or whatever, so it stayed at the bank.

[09:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, for either. For both of the properties.

[09:04] Speaker 1: Okay. And now, uh, one of the, the, the properties had two mortgages, I understand, right?

[09:13] Speaker 2: Yes, and we (laughs) ... We actually didn't even really realize that until later. So, they foreclosed on the... It was a line of credit, and that's the one that they foreclosed on. So, we had been paying... Well, actually, we'd been paying... I think we'd said this on the other show, but we had been paying right up until then, um, and we continued to pay our original mortgage as well. But once they foreclosed on the home, we thought, "Well, why are we gonna keep paying this original mortgage?" So then, yeah, then we find out they did a second foreclosure, uh, sometime in November on the original mortgage.

[09:52] Speaker 1: Okay. But when you say original, it wasn't purchase money mortgage, right? You already owned the house before you took out that mortgage?

[10:01] Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yeah.

[10:02] Speaker 2: The property. Yeah, the property.

[10:03] Speaker 1: The property. Right. Okay.

[10:04] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[10:05] Speaker 1: Okay. Michael, anything else?

[10:08] Speaker 3: Um, no. No, not on that.

[10:12] Speaker 1: Okay. So, uh, they told you that now th- they're going into eviction proceedings. And again, this is also driven by state law, and that's gonna vary as far as how it goes and w- what you can argue, what you can say. Michael and Leah, w- what did you guys learn about the whole eviction process here in Michigan?

[10:35] Speaker 3: Well, I think one of the things that we learned is it's, um... it's a little time-consuming. Right? You got... You have... They... Definitely, they... At the end of ours in October, they, they're... They, they said, "That's your new redemption period." And then it's... You know, you're supposed to... You're... We thought you would just go boom, boom, boom, and they... you would already have your paperwork and they were gonna come try to evict you out. That wasn't the case. It actually went... Um, you know, this is... This has been an ongoing process. Um, but the, the eviction process, um, we've learned so much about that, and we could probably talk for just a couple hours on just the eviction alone. Um, and we... I'm sure you're gonna get into that in just a little bit, Michael. But on, on our... on our one property, um, part of the eviction, they, um...

[11:26] Speaker 3: And I don't know if it's okay to say this right here, but they had sent some letters to some of the-

[11:30] Speaker 2: Tenants.

[11:31] Speaker 3: ... to tenants in one of our properties, and, um, wanted them to not pay us anymore and start paying them. Um, so they had attorneys writing letters to them. And so then your tenants get confused and they're thinking, "Oh, w- what do I do? What do I do?" And... But they've all been great people. They're... Th- our tenants are good people, and understandably so. They... I, I would be confused as well. So, so that was the part we did not know about.

[11:53] Speaker 2: And I, I wanted to say too, when they came to bring those letters, to serve us those letters... Well, let me back up a little bit, 'cause they've been tr- um... I would say the, the sheriff's office has called us numerous times actually to get permission, which I...... you know, that's great. They-

[12:13] Speaker 3: They have... The sheriff's department has been very respectful and, um-

[12:18] Speaker 2: Some of them.

[12:18] Speaker 3: ... cordial. I, well, I think they have, the sheriff himself, he's, he has been with us.

[12:22] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[12:22] Speaker 3: I think he has been... We told him we had a land patent, and, you know, this was federal property, and he has called any time that they were wanting to come on the property, that he's made sure somebody from his office has called before they came in and served us any papers even. So, he's been very, they've been very respectful.

[12:38] Speaker 2: But the day this one officer came, we did not know about it, and he wasn't so (laughs) nice-

[12:47] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[12:47] Speaker 2: ... really. He actually... So what happened, um, and Michael, you probably can add to it because we were actually on a Zoom (laughs) with Michael when they showed up, and, um, we were a little bit nervous. He kept pulling up, pulling up, and then (laughs) I mean, can we discuss all this, Michael?

[13:08] Speaker 3: (laughs) Why not? I mean-

[13:10] Speaker 2: Okay.

[13:10] Speaker 3: ... it's true, right? It happens.

[13:12] Speaker 2: It's true.

[13:12] Speaker 3: That is definitely true.

[13:13] Speaker 2: I won't say any names right now-

[13:13] Speaker 3: And it's not gonna impact your case at all. Of course.

[13:16] Speaker 2: Yeah. I won't say any names right now but-

[13:19] Speaker 3: You don't have to.

[13:21] Speaker 2: ... he, he... Oh, okay. So, uh, he was a, de-

[13:25] Speaker 3: Court officer.

[13:26] Speaker 2: ... court officer. Well, he said he was higher than the sheriff.

[13:28] Speaker 3: Yeah. (laughs)

[13:28] Speaker 2: But anyway, he pulls right up to, like, our office windows, and he... 'Cause nobody was coming, nothi- we weren't coming to the door, 'cause we weren't quite sure what to do at that point, and then he just kept... He'd pull out and then he'd come back, and then he parked right in front of the offices, right in front of the office window. He-

[13:48] Speaker 3: Can I interject something?

[13:49] Speaker 2: Yep, go ahead.

[13:49] Speaker 3: So when, when he, he, he pulled up, and then walked around, and we're like, "Oh, my goodness, what are we gonna do?" The guy's, you know, walking around, and we can, we've... Like, I knew, we knew who he was, he was there for a reason, to probably serve papers or something of that nature. But he walked around the building and then he finally went to his vehicle, grabbed a bunch of papers, a stack, and came and s- taped them to the windows at, right at the entrance door, and those were the papers that we were discussing about how the rent, um, needed to go to them now for the, from the tenants, and there was, like, 10, 10 different papers on there, um, and then he, he left. And when he left, he was gone for, like, four minutes and we went and grabbed the papers off, (laughs) 'cause we didn't go answer the door. Went and gra- grabbed the papers off of the rail, and he came back so all the papers were gone and then that's when...

[14:40] Speaker 3: Go ahead, then you can-

[14:41] Speaker 2: Well-

[14:41] Speaker 3: ... tell the rest of your story. It's okay.

[14:42] Speaker 2: ... he ju- Okay. It's okay. So he, (laughs) he gets out and he gets into his back seat and he gets his bulletproof vest out.

[14:50] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[14:51] Speaker 2: And then he just slowly takes his time. I mean, how many, like five, 10 minutes?

[14:56] Speaker 3: Holds it right in front of the security camera-

[14:57] Speaker 2: Wait-

[14:57] Speaker 3: ... so we could all see it on security.

[14:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's just standing there, taking his time, putting his vest on, and I'm thinking, I mean, he's trying to intimidate us.

[15:05] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. For sure.

[15:07] Speaker 2: So then... Well, I don't know, I'm trying to think. Then we finally did go, "You answer the door-

[15:12] Speaker 3: Right.

[15:13] Speaker 2: ... first." And then I came out a few minutes later, and they were in, standing in the doorway, and I kinda came out a little bit fiery, just, you know, confident, but little fiery, and he was like, "Whoa." What did he say to me? Um-

[15:32] Speaker 3: I can't remember his exact words.

[15:34] Speaker 2: And then he, he had to pull up his, uh, jack- pull over his jacket and show me his gun.

[15:42] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Yeah, he p- brandished his gun just to show that, "Hey, you..." (laughs) "I'm, I'm, I'm carrying." He actually said that. "Well, I'm, I'm packing." That's what he said. "I'm packing." And, um, we're like, "Well, okay. Well, glad you are, 'cause we're not. You know? We're not violent people whatsoever. We've never been. It's not..." And we've told everybody that. So it was definitely an intimidation-

[16:04] Speaker 2: Yes.

[16:05] Speaker 3: ... um, factor. They were trying to- Totally ... try and intimidate

[16:07] Speaker 2: Yes.

[16:07] Speaker 3: Absolutely, a- a- and it's a show of force. Mm-hmm And I, I would say that that's an excessive use of force, even though it's just a show of force. If he wasn't in uniform or on the job, that would be a crime in New York. That's called menacing with a, with a gun

[16:21] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[16:22] Speaker 3: But go ahead.

[16:25] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think we were just... Then you just kind of explained to him.

[16:29] Speaker 3: Well, yeah. We, uh, we were telling him that this is, you know, we... "This is a federal property. We are... This is private property. You can see our signs right here." And he looked at those signs-

[16:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, we, yeah, we pointed to them and said, "These... This is federal property." You know, 'cause we didn't give him permission to be there. We didn't. No-

[16:45] Speaker 3: And these are the Narlo signs that we have-

[16:47] Speaker 2: Yes.

[16:47] Speaker 3: ... on the building.

[16:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, the big, huge ones. And he goes, "I... Nope, I can be here." And then we had our door, 'cause we were kinda standing in the doorway, he was outside, and he stuck his hand in just to say, "Yep, I can come in there," because he wanted to come in. He was gonna grab those papers, and we had a table sitting right there, and I said, "No. This is, this is federal property. You can't come in." He goes, "Yeah." And he stuck his hand in, like, to make fun of me, like, "Yes.

[17:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, I can come in."

[17:16] Speaker 3: Yeah, see-

[17:16] Speaker 2: So, I don't know-

[17:17] Speaker 3: And, and that's, that's escalating the situation, not deescalating the situation.

[17:21] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[17:21] Speaker 3: There's no need. It was completely uncalled for. So-

[17:23] Speaker 2: It was.

[17:23] Speaker 3: Yeah. A prima donna. So, go on.

[17:26] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[17:26] Speaker 3: I'm sorry. Go ahead. (laughs) It was weird 'cause he was a, he was an older gentleman and he had a handicapped license plate and, and I'm just thinking, this guy... Just, just how he was acting, he was just, just very arrogant. I just, uh, and I was, I was a little bit taken aback. But, um, but him sticking his hand in the door, we finally said, "Okay." And, and he's got his bulletproof vest on while he's talking to us, and, and we're just like, man. You know, you don't need to, you don't need to do that. This isn't... This... You know, you have nothing to worry about with us. We're not (laughs) this way.

[17:58] Speaker 3: And, um, and then right after that, what happened right after

[18:01] Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, 'cause I got a little... And I said, "Well, I work for-" (laughs)

[18:04] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[18:04] Speaker 2: I had a shirt on that... I had a sweatshirt on and it had a flag on it, and I said, "Well, I work for America." (laughs)

[18:12] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[18:13] Speaker 1: I love it. I love it.

[18:15] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[18:16] Speaker 3: Oh, shoot.

[18:17] Speaker 2: But, yeah.

[18:17] Speaker 1: So if- if memory serves, uh... I remember his name, but he's, uh... He's a court officer, right?

[18:24] Speaker 2: Yes.

[18:24] Speaker 1: They're appointed by the court to do various, you know, things, and s- and one of the things that he does is serve papers with respect to foreclosures. And the Michigan law says that they are the only ones that are allowed to serve those types of papers. So, when he says that he has, you know, greater jurisdiction or more authority than the sheriff, only for that one thing. I'm sure he doesn't have a power of arrest. But this, to me, in my personal opinion, this is troubling, right? Because now you have a court that has somewhat of an enforcement arm that's reporting directly to the court. Well, the courts, you know, make their own rules in how the court runs. They interpret those rules, and now you give them something to enforce those rules with. In and of themselves, that, by definition, according to our founding fathers and the Federalist Papers, I believe it was, um, 71 and 48 or 49, something like that. That, by definition, is a tyranny.

[19:29] Speaker 1: That's tyranny-

[19:30] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[19:30] Speaker 1: ... when you have all three- all... E-either two or more branches of government being controlled by one group of people or one person. So, yeah, that's troubling. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[19:45] Speaker 2: I think that was it. Is... Was there anything you had- needed to add to that?

[19:48] Speaker 3: I- I don't think so. Well, this- this was the time where he... So, he brought these papers. Now we're trying to figure out, are you... Is he allowed to even come there right then? Because we haven't been... We had not, at that point, been served anything else at all from the court. So, we had no summons or- or- to show up. We hadn't s- had nothing else from the court. Well, while he was there, he said, um, "Well, I think there's another package coming for you later today or tomorrow." And I said, "Oh, really?" I said, "Well, why don't you just set it up right now? I will meet, uh, you know, or- or meet the person right here." Um, and then he said, "Well, hang on a minute." So, he went and called, and then another person came out and, uh... Maybe a couple hours later, and then served us the court documents. So, I j- I think the way they did it was a little bit backwards. I think they probably should've served us first, and then brought those documents that he had for all the tenants.

[20:41] Speaker 3: Um, I still am not... I'm a little unsure if he- if he followed the right pro- procedure there.

[20:48] Speaker 2: But then the- the lady that came, she was very nice, but, like, we went back and looked at the footage on our camera, and she was taking... She was taking all kinds of pictures-

[20:58] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[20:58] Speaker 2: ... of our NARLO signs.

[21:00] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[21:00] Speaker 2: So, I found that interesting.

[21:02] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[21:04] Speaker 1: Good, good. Spread the word.

[21:06] Speaker 2: Yep.

[21:08] Speaker 1: Okay, so, um, how has this impacted the community? A- have you had a chance to... W- without getting into too much detail, you know, just generally. I know you said that your tenants were a little confused, but since then, have- have you had any other reaction from either the tenants or members of the community?

[21:30] Speaker 2: Um, ha, I will say yeah. Everyone's really confused. W- we live in a small town, um, and like I said, I used to be a teacher there, here, and then Mike's a builder. And so, everybody in... Of course, we own this building. And so, it's a small town and everybody knows everybody. And so, everybody's wondering what's going on with us.

[21:55] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[21:56] Speaker 2: So, there's been- there's been a few Facebook posts, but we don't get involved. We don't-

[22:00] Speaker 3: Yeah. There's been a- just a couple, um, n- negative Facebook posts-

[22:05] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[22:05] Speaker 3: ... but for the most part, a lot of people, when they p- when people make the Facebook post, we have... There's a lot of support. People saying, "Well, you don't even understand what's going on. Nobody knows what's going on. Why don't you... Why don't you talk to them instead of airing it on Facebook?" You know? So, we have had a lot of support behind us. A few- a f- a few people that- that like to just stir the pot, but that's- that's anywhere. Anywhere you go.

[22:28] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yep.

[22:28] Speaker 2: And I don't know...

[22:30] Speaker 1: Go ahead, Leah.

[22:31] Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, can we discuss the village or no?

[22:34] Speaker 3: Oh, uh, yeah.

[22:35] Speaker 1: If you want, sure. Sure. I mean, it's- it's all true. It happened, right? So, why not?

[22:40] Speaker 2: It happened. Yeah.

[22:40] Speaker 3: Yeah. Just don't say any names.

[22:41] Speaker 2: I won't say any names, but, um, so-

[22:45] Speaker 3: Or our village name.

[22:47] Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I... We sent, you know, the- the letters to, you know, the governor and the sheriff and all those... The no trespassing, you know, that Q advised-

[22:57] Speaker 1: Right.

[22:57] Speaker 2: ... after you're finished with the process. So, that was also sent to our township and village, and so they were told. And then the sheriff, he ended up... Well, he called our local chief-

[23:13] Speaker 3: Yep.

[23:13] Speaker 2: ... of police. He discussed it with him, and they... He- they told the village, like, "Yeah, they can't... Nobody can come on our property." I mean, they honored it.

[23:23] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[23:24] Speaker 2: Um, they didn't patrol or anything.

[23:26] Speaker 3: At first, the- the sheriff asked our local police chief... He goes, "Hey, we got this letter, um, from Mike and Leah, and we're wondering, are we doing something wrong? Because the letter said that, you know, not allowed on our property. This is federal property." And he said, "Are we doing something wrong? Are we over-patrolling their area or something? Have we- have we done something?" And then, um, our local police chief, he reached out and he says... And we know- we know him well. And, um, he goes, "Hey, Mike." He goes, "I got a- a- an email from the sheriff, and he was just wanting to know what was going on, and..." And so we had a little conversation, and I explained to him what we were doing, and he goes, "Oh, okay." And he was actually very interested, and he wanted to know more about it. Um, and he said, "I will relay the message back to the sheriff." And, um, so I- I was- I was happy that the sheriff at least acknowledged it. Uh, but he did... We did learn......

[24:17] Speaker 3: and this was kind of hearsay, through the grapevine from somebody in our town, that he did send a letter to our township and he was saying that we are sovereign citizens, and that is not, that is not true. That is definitely a false statement. We are not sovereign citizens. We have not done that. There's nothing wrong with sovereign citizens, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying we have not done that, so that is, that's a false statement. You know what? What we have said is we are the successors of our land patent. We... This is it. There's nothing more to it. We are, we are successors. We own this property and it is, it's federally patented land. So that was, that was a little disheartening when we heard that, but, um...

[24:57] Speaker 2: But we've had some... So then, since then, the village, they've been trying to figure out what's going on in our, in our building, and, um, they've seen some activity and saying that we need permits and all of this, but... And they sent us a letter, over a year ago, um, and so, but nobody has come. Well, when was this? Um, I'm trying to think. Ooh, I'm getting my date... October, that was? When did she... Some- So, someone from the village came on our property one day and she took pictures, which was fine. She was out on the sidewalk. But then she walked up, you know, and took some more pictures. Then she came right up to the building, and then I walked out there, you know, "Can I help you?" And she said she was with the village, uh, but then she made up some lie that she was taking pictures for some historical something or other, um. And then later that night, I emailed her and said, "Could you remind me again why?

[26:03] Speaker 2: You know, I was talking to my husband," and "Can you remind me again why you were here?" And nothing. And then we reached out. Go ahead. Well-

[26:11] Speaker 3: We just sent a- Well, we sent her a letter again, another email, 'cause she, she didn't respond, so we sent another, um, email just saying, "Hey, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna... Just respond to us. We'll give you a couple of days. Respond. If not, we're gonna have to go and ask the village or, you know, the township."

[26:26] Speaker 2: So you reached out. You called one of the officials?

[26:30] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Called one of the officials at the village and they said, no, they were not there, had anything to do with village work or anything, and I said okay.

[26:38] Speaker 2: Yeah. I think she came on her own. She thought she was gonna be a little sneaky, but-

[26:42] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[26:42] Speaker 2: ... we sent some pretty, you know, some letters and No Trespassing sign, you know, to the village, and, um, they've, they've backed down right now. No one's-

[26:52] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[26:52] Speaker 2: It's pretty quiet.

[26:54] Speaker 3: I think a lot of people are trying to figure us out.

[26:57] Speaker 1: If- If memory... Yeah. I- if memory serves, they... She said something about being there with s- with a town official.

[27:05] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. So, so after that we had learned, because we had to write some, some letters to an attorney, to the village attorney, and then in his response, his response was she was asked by a township official to come over to our place and take pictures.

[27:23] Speaker 1: Okay.

[27:23] Speaker 3: So... Yeah.

[27:25] Speaker 1: And, uh, and he said that she wasn't on the property when she took pictures? Right?

[27:31] Speaker 3: Yeah. So in his letter, he- he said, um, "We- we've questioned her and she has told us she stayed on the sidewalk, which is perfectly legal," and that's... That is. That's perfectly legal. But we had to send him an email saying, "We have video evidence that she is not telling you the truth." So, um, sent him a pretty strong letter.

[27:53] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[27:53] Speaker 3: And we have not heard anything back from him as well.

[27:57] Speaker 2: And we've heard that she's no longer-

[28:01] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.

[28:01] Speaker 2: ... employed-

[28:02] Speaker 3: Right.

[28:03] Speaker 2: ... at the village.

[28:03] Speaker 3: She is no longer there.

[28:04] Speaker 2: Oh, which we heard it was for another reason, so we really don't know the reason behind it, but yeah. She's not there anymore.

[28:12] Speaker 3: Nope.

[28:13] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[28:14] Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah. I'm gonna be, uh, curious to know why she was on your property taking pictures with everything that's going on. Just seems a little odd.

[28:23] Speaker 3: Right. Right.

[28:26] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[28:27] Speaker 1: Okay. Wow. Th- So this is, this is pretty unsettling. It, it certainly... It kind of, like, dumps your apple cart of, of your daily life, right? You have all these questions, people coming onto the property, trying to serve you papers and having to respond to all these things and... How are you guys doing with all that?

[28:48] Speaker 3: Well, it, it has been pretty... I mean, it's been intense for a little bit. Um, I think at the very beginning, it was a little more intense, especially when the, the court officer was there. That one, that one was probably the, the one that made us a little bit... Probably the most intense. And now we kind of realize, we're understanding how the system works a little bit more, so it's getting a little bit easier to deal with it. What we still, you still have... Now people aren't coming onto your property as much.

[29:21] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[29:21] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[29:21] Speaker 3: Now we're just... Now we're going to the courts. (laughs)

[29:23] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[29:24] Speaker 1: Right. You're going to their property.

[29:26] Speaker 3: We're going to their property, yeah. Right.

[29:30] Speaker 1: Okay. So let's get into that. The courts. Um, you- We talked about the, the eviction process. They started that. And, uh, what did you do for that?

[29:42] Speaker 2: So we had to go, uh, January 8th, and we had all of our, um, paperwork ready for a motion to dismiss, and they just totally ignored it.

[29:58] Speaker 3: Well-

[29:59] Speaker 1: So you had already filed the papers... I'm sorry. You had already filed the motions, right? The papers? With the court before you went to the court date, right?

[30:09] Speaker 2: Yes.

[30:09] Speaker 3: We did.

[30:10] Speaker 1: Okay. And the other-

[30:11] Speaker 2: And if they... Go ahead.

[30:14] Speaker 1: The other side, the, the bank's attorney had an opportunity to respond?... to your papers? To your motion?

[30:21] Speaker 2: Yes.

[30:22] Speaker 3: Yes, he did. And, um, at first, I mean, his response was, a few of the, his comments were almost a little comical. But one of the things that we realized is (clears throat) our, our building, and Michael, make sure we can say this, our building is a, um, itself was an LLC.

[30:47] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[30:47] Speaker 3: But we, we own the property, right? We had, um, Mike and Leah owned the property. But the bank was, ha- had, had the lawsuit against, um, the, the-

[31:02] Speaker 2: LLC.

[31:02] Speaker 3: ... the business, the LLC. And one of the things that we learned during this is that an individual cannot represent an LLC. You have to have a bar registered, uh, attorney.

[31:19] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[31:20] Speaker 3: Um, and one of the things that we did, 'cause we already had our papers done, re- we, we, of things that we wanted to say, we wanted to submit a certain way, and found out we had to have a, an attorney represent us. And we tried several.

[31:37] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[31:37] Speaker 3: Probably 10-

[31:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, at least 10.

[31:38] Speaker 3: ... if, maybe more. And talked to a couple of them, and one of them was like, "Nope, I won't, I will not do that." That is, he... They, they would not file the papers we want, the way we wanted to. They wanted to file them their way, not our way. I just, it was... I can't believe it was so hard. It was, it just didn't work out-

[31:58] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[31:59] Speaker 3: ... to be able to find an attorney.

[31:59] Speaker 2: Well, I mean, the one we were willing to pay, like, you know, quite a f- you know, quite a bit just for him, we asked him to just file the papers, and that's it. And he was not-

[32:13] Speaker 3: Was not having it.

[32:14] Speaker 2: ... comfortable with that because he probably would what? Get sanctioned or-

[32:17] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[32:17] Speaker 2: ... whatever. So he, he ended up saying no, so.

[32:21] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Yep.

[32:23] Speaker 1: Yeah. So I, you're, you're absolutely right. Um, that is a common thing, where, uh, it's not just LLCs. Any corporation, uh, LLC, PLLC, a corp, uh, company, they must be represented by an attorney. Obviously here in Michigan, certainly back in New York, and I'm sure throughout most, if not all of the states. So, that's something for you all to consider when you get in there, uh, and, and start with this, th- this whole legal fight. If you don't know what you're doing, if you're not comfortable in a courtroom and know the lay of the land, it's, it's really gonna be a sharp learning curve for you. And, and I don't... I'm not sure if everyone's gonna be able to surmount that hurdle. So, okay. Go ahead, Michael. Please continue. You got in there, uh, you exchanged papers, then you got to the, the hearing, Leah said, on January 8th, and then what happened?

[33:23] Speaker 3: Well, for, for one of them, because we had (laughs) we had both, both properties going the same day. We were there the same day.

[33:32] Speaker 2: 30 minutes apart.

[33:33] Speaker 3: 30 minutes apart, they scheduled us, you know, 30 minutes before-

[33:37] Speaker 1: We-

[33:37] Speaker 3: ... one, and then we had to be at the other one 30 minutes later, and so-

[33:40] Speaker 1: The other one? What do you mean the other one?

[33:42] Speaker 3: So we had two different dates, one for our, for one property and one for the other property. So we had two different court times on the same day, a half an hour apart.

[33:51] Speaker 1: Two different judges?

[33:53] Speaker 2: Different.

[33:53] Speaker 3: Two different judges, yes.

[33:55] Speaker 1: Okay.

[33:55] Speaker 3: Yes.

[33:56] Speaker 1: All right, go ahead.

[33:58] Speaker 3: And, um...

[34:00] Speaker 2: Well, so say the first one, the house.

[34:01] Speaker 3: Yeah, the, the first one... Yeah, you can go talk about it.

[34:03] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, the first one, um, you know, we had like some notes, and, and Mike was able to go through, um... Because at first the judge was like, "Well, this is just a..." What does he call? A preliminary-

[34:16] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[34:16] Speaker 2: ... hearing. "Oh, no, we're not doing..." Because he saw we had like pa- our folder with all of our papers and, "Oh, no, we're gonna do that, you know, later." And then Mike was able to... He did l- let him go through like all of his documents. And so right as he's going through they, he wanted to make sure that they had them all, and he said, "Motion to dismiss," but it, the judge... Well, we know he had just been on vacation. He hadn't even, he hadn't even looked at them. Like I know, he hadn't even looked at them.

[34:46] Speaker 3: Didn't appear to, didn't-

[34:46] Speaker 2: He had... No, it didn't appear to be that he even knew that those were even in there. Even after then Mike went through, you know, all of our documents that we had, and he just then completely ignored it.

[34:59] Speaker 3: So let me-

[35:00] Speaker 1: Because one of the things we-

[35:01] Speaker 3: Oh, go ahead.

[35:02] Speaker 1: Just so everybody understands, after Mike went through all, each and every document that you guys filed in support of your motion to dismiss for lack of summary judgment, he couldn't care less.

[35:18] Speaker 2: No.

[35:18] Speaker 3: That's right.

[35:19] Speaker 1: Is that, is that right?

[35:20] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[35:20] Speaker 1: Okay.

[35:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, he just said, "Yeah, we're just gonna, we're gonna do this, we'll do this next, uh, for the next court hearing."

[35:27] Speaker 1: Okay.

[35:27] Speaker 3: And I, when we got there, we were a little bit shocked, honestly, because the heat it was, it was in the afternoon, it was, I, I think it was 1:15-

[35:37] Speaker 2: Something like that.

[35:37] Speaker 3: ... som- somewhere, somewhere in there. It was in the afternoon. They had their lunch break, the, um, the court did. And then if you looked at his screen, there's a screen in the court that shows their different, um, all, all the different cases. And he had a, I, I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say at least 40 cases to do, um, for, for three hours worth of work, 'cause they close at 5:00. So, I, it's not surprising we didn't get to speak much. But he was able... One of the things that we knew we were able to do is make our record. That's what we were saying. So, we ha- we had to go down through and make sure he had everything on file, everything was, was, was noted. And he did allow us to do that, but then that was basically it. Then it was over. He didn't even comment on our motion to dismiss. He barely, I mean, he, he never acknowledged it.

[36:25] Speaker 2: I don't... I don't think even... No, he, he didn't acknowledge it. No.

[36:28] Speaker 3: No.

[36:28] Speaker 2: Mm-mm.

[36:29] Speaker 1: Yeah. So if I could just interject here, um, in my experience, you know, what we're taught in law school and for the bar and, you know, CLEs and everything practice, as soon as someone, one of the parties objects to summary... uh, excuse me, lack of subject matter jurisdiction, everything stops. Everything is supposed to stop, anyway, and the court must address that issue first. And if it finds out that it doesn't have subject matter jurisdiction, they're not allowed to hear that case, then they have to dismiss the case. But the, the thing that you don't do is just ignore the motion. I mean, it, you know, you, you filed it in good faith, believing in your argument that the court didn't have subject matter jurisdiction. He should have entertained the motion, but he didn't. And, and that absolutely threw me when I, when I heard that. Uh, just so the audience knows, I was there. I was in the courtroom with them. And when I saw that he did that, my mouth just gaped open.

[37:33] Speaker 1: I, I couldn't believe it. You're not even going to... You know that he filed the papers. He just listed them for you, and now you're gonna just ignore them and go straight ahead? What if he's right? I mean, it's a-

[37:43] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[37:43] Speaker 1: ... it's a rare chance that that court doesn't have subject matter jurisdiction, but you don't know the argument that's being made, you know? So-

[37:50] Speaker 3: Right.

[37:51] Speaker 1: ... okay.

[37:52] Speaker 3: And, and honestly, Michael, if I can just say, one of the things that were, was frustrating to me is that, you know, you spend a year... I mean, we've spent... We've been really, really digging into this for a year, and we... There's, there's probably hundreds... I know there's at least hundreds of hours that's gone into our papers, everything that we've looked up, all the, the, the Supreme Court cases, every, um, you know, Michigan case law, everything that we've, we've, we've researched, and he, he didn't even look at it. That's what was really disheartening to me. I, it's... You put all this time and effort into something, I mean, a year's worth of work, and then they won't even acknowledge it. That's, that was, that was hard to, to accept.

[38:41] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's... And I... Well, like they say, "Just us," right?

[38:47] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yep, yep.

[38:49] Speaker 1: Justice. Okay.

[38:50] Speaker 2: You know, and I wanted... I just wanted to add, so that, the flag in there behind the judge had no fringes, and so I'm thinking, oh, you know, maybe this one's gonna be good because the, the courtroom right next door had fringes, and I found that very interesting.

[39:11] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[39:12] Speaker 2: Um-

[39:12] Speaker 3: You'd think they would be-

[39:13] Speaker 1: Me too.

[39:14] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[39:14] Speaker 1: Me too. You pointed that out to me. I was like, oh, look at that. But-

[39:17] Speaker 3: Yep.

[39:18] Speaker 1: ... you got hos, I figured maybe they'll get a fair shake. Nope. (laughs)

[39:20] Speaker 3: Right. (laughs)

[39:21] Speaker 2: Yeah. (laughs)

[39:24] Speaker 1: Okay, then what happened, Michael?

[39:27] Speaker 2: The next court, go ahead. Yeah.

[39:28] Speaker 3: Oh, and then we... Okay, so then we leave there and-

[39:33] Speaker 1: Wait. Oh, hold on. Before we go there, so he ignored your motion to dismiss and he put it down for a hearing.

[39:40] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[39:40] Speaker 3: Yes. Yep.

[39:42] Speaker 1: And at that hearing, they'll determine whether or not you get evicted.

[39:46] Speaker 3: Correct.

[39:47] Speaker 2: Yes.

[39:48] Speaker 1: Okay. All right. I'm sorry. Go ahead. You're going then to the next court now.

[39:53] Speaker 3: Yep. So then we go to the next court.

[39:55] Speaker 2: Right next door.

[39:56] Speaker 3: Right, yep. Right next door, and, um, and we made sure that they knew, you know. We went and told the second, our second hearing before we got to the first hearing saying, "Hey, listen."

[40:06] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[40:06] Speaker 3: "We have one. We're gonna be in here, and this judge is, uh, in this hearing, so if we're late..." You know, we made sure we were, we were upfront with those guys so they couldn't just say, "Oh, no, nobody showed up," or-

[40:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, because they say if you're late-

[40:20] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[40:20] Speaker 2: ... whatever, then you're inst-

[40:21] Speaker 3: One minute late-

[40:22] Speaker 2: Yeah, dismissed. They'll just... Yeah.

[40:22] Speaker 3: ... it just dismisses the whole court case. Um, and then, so we go over there and we're, we're inside and, and I think it almost threw the judges off because one of them, I can't remember which one it was, but they asked us, "Well, why are you guys here?" Like, this, one of... Was it the first one? And they...

[40:41] Speaker 2: Oh, oh, yeah. Because-

[40:43] Speaker 3: Which one was it?

[40:43] Speaker 2: Well, I think it was the first one-

[40:44] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[40:44] Speaker 2: ... because he was saying, "We're not doing this right now."

[40:46] Speaker 3: Right.

[40:46] Speaker 2: "We don't need all your papers right now. Bring those papers next time."

[40:49] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[40:49] Speaker 2: That's what he said. (laughs)

[40:50] Speaker 3: Right.

[40:52] Speaker 1: They thought that you were getting ready to go to trial, and you're trying to talk about the motion to dismiss.

[40:56] Speaker 3: Right.

[40:56] Speaker 1: That's a preliminary hearing.

[40:57] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[40:57] Speaker 1: That's the purpose of the preliminary hearing, to see if there's any dispositive motions or anything like that, if you need evidence, et cetera.

[41:04] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[41:05] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[41:05] Speaker 1: Ugh. Unbelievable.

[41:06] Speaker 2: And, and while the, the attorney for the bank is on a Zoom, everybody else in there, everybody's on a Zoom. They're just up on the screen. Like, nobody comes into these. They just... So they... I think they were a little bit shocked that here we are and we have our, you know, support behind us-

[41:23] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[41:23] Speaker 2: ... and what's going on in this courtroom.

[41:26] Speaker 3: And it's just-

[41:28] Speaker 1: And, uh... Go ahead.

[41:28] Speaker 3: Go ahead. I said, up there, it's just, you see the Zoom meetings up there, and it's just eviction after eviction after eviction. I mean, there's... Probably out of those 40 cases-

[41:38] Speaker 2: It was-

[41:38] Speaker 3: ... I bet you 30 of them were evictions.

[41:39] Speaker 2: Most, yeah.

[41:40] Speaker 3: They're just evict, evict, evict, evict. It's... It was actually sad.

[41:44] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[41:45] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[41:45] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[41:45] Speaker 2: Very sad.

[41:47] Speaker 1: And, and that's what I was just about to comment on. It, it... What I saw was an absolute abomination.

[41:53] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[41:54] Speaker 1: How, how, you know... You can't e- It, it's completely dehumanizing, you know.

[42:01] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[42:01] Speaker 1: You're just a screen, a face on a screen, as opposed to being there in person, you know.

[42:06] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[42:06] Speaker 1: And there are things that were missed by not being there in person. Um, I mean, we have rights to, to public trial, and that public trial means something because the judges and everybody tend to, you know, mind their Ps and Qs and, and, and dot their Is and cross their Ts at least a little bit more, if not all the time.... um, but that didn't happen. And, and that was really appalling in my eyes. Aside from you guys, I think there was only one other person or party, you know, on, one other case where people showed up. In Michigan, uh, the eviction process is presumed to be via Zoom, and the court sends you a Zoom link so you can just sign on, "Don't worry about it.

[42:56] Speaker 1: We'll keep you nice and comfortable as we get ready to evict you from wherever you live."

[43:01] Speaker 2: Yeah (laughs) .

[43:01] Speaker 3: Yep.

[43:01] Speaker 1: And, uh, yeah. That, that was, that was horrible. Absolutely horrible-

[43:07] Speaker 2: Yep.

[43:07] Speaker 1: ... from a due process standpoint of view. But I'm sorry, go ahead.

[43:12] Speaker 3: Yeah, so then we go to the other courtroom, and we go in there and sit, sit down, wait for a little bit, go, while they're going through all these other evictions. So it's two courtrooms doing the same thing (laughs) . Um, and then we finally get called up, and...

[43:28] Speaker 2: He said, "Are you an attorney?"

[43:29] Speaker 3: Yep, yeah, so we told we're an attorney. And the, uh, you know, the, the bank's attorney found that out and wanted it basically dismissed because we can't represent ourselves, and he asked me, and, um...

[43:42] Speaker 2: You told them you had called?

[43:44] Speaker 3: So I called-

[43:45] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[43:45] Speaker 3: ... 10 to 15 and talked to, uh, different-

[43:47] Speaker 2: And nobody'll take it.

[43:48] Speaker 3: ... firms and nobody will take it. Nobody. I've t- I've talked to several, none of them will take it.

[43:52] Speaker 2: And he's like, "Well, you still have, well, you have a couple more weeks."

[43:55] Speaker 3: Yep. A couple more weeks, maybe then-

[43:57] Speaker 2: For the trial.

[43:57] Speaker 3: Right.

[43:58] Speaker 2: But you, you said, "I'm the sole..."

[44:00] Speaker 3: Yeah, and I, that's, my argument was, "It's only me. The LLC is only me. There's nobody else o- on it, nobody else has ever been on it, it's only me. I can't, I'm the only one that knows anything about the whole company and I can't present myself? It doesn't make sense." But that's-

[44:16] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[44:16] Speaker 3: ... Michigan law, so I mean, you can't... He, he-

[44:19] Speaker 1: Right. And what did he say? Well, that's Michigan law, but Michigan law-

[44:22] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[44:22] Speaker 1: ... doesn't necessarily control everything. Well, why? What's the real reason he said you couldn't represent yourself?

[44:29] Speaker 3: What was the reason? He just-

[44:30] Speaker 1: Because, because you weren't qualified.

[44:33] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. Right.

[44:34] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

[44:34] Speaker 3: Yes. Yes.

[44:35] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'll just tell you-

[44:36] Speaker 3: You know-

[44:36] Speaker 1: ... that's not the touchstone. In, in, the Supreme Court has held repeatedly that a criminal defendant has an absolute Constitutional right to represent himself or herself so long as they are competent. You know, that they don't suffer from some mental defect or they're underage or something like that, uh, traumatic brain injury. If they are, if they're competent and they're able to s- assist in their own defense, they can represent themselves even in a capital murder case where they're facing the death penalty.

[45:14] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[45:15] Speaker 1: But yet you, as a sole proprietor, in this case, you're not allowed to represent yourself. That doesn't make sense.

[45:25] Speaker 3: No.

[45:25] Speaker 1: And he said, "Because you're not qualified." Well, that's not the touchstone. The touchstone is whether or not you are competent.

[45:32] Speaker 3: Right.

[45:34] Speaker 1: So I submit that that judge was way off base for, for using, at least using that, that standard.

[45:42] Speaker 2: Yes.

[45:42] Speaker 1: He might have, he might have denied you for some other reason, but to say, "No, you're not qualified," it shows that he doesn't know the law, he doesn't know the Constitutional standard. So, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[45:55] Speaker 3: Um, and that was, I think he, wh- when I started talking, that's what he asked is, "Are you, did you find an attorney?" And I, I pleaded the case and he says, "Okay. Well, there, y- you know, you can't represent yourself, go tr- maybe, you got two more weeks, maybe you can find somebody to, to represent you." And I, and he's, and he, and he threw out a, um, a name of a, somebody like, I think at, at appointee, they, you get a court-appointed attorney?

[46:20] Speaker 3: And he threw out like a, a-

[46:21] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[46:21] Speaker 3: ... the names of, uh, that company that they work for and-

[46:24] Speaker 1: Well, kind of like legal aid or something.

[46:26] Speaker 2: Okay, yeah.

[46:26] Speaker 3: Yeah, like legal aid, and I did, I did call them. I, I actually did, and, and, um, but found out it was only for-

[46:34] Speaker 2: Like over 60.

[46:35] Speaker 3: ... over 60 years old or low income and it was, it was, they didn't work for us. They just didn't work. We didn't meet the criteria.

[46:44] Speaker 2: So, so Mike wasn't even able to, like in the first one with the house, he was able to at least go through like our documents just to make sure, you know, that they had them. But because he couldn't represent himself, he couldn't even speak of anything. So, yeah.

[46:59] Speaker 1: And the documents that you did file, they were all stricken from the record?

[47:03] Speaker 2: Yes.

[47:04] Speaker 3: Right.

[47:05] Speaker 1: (laughs) Unbelievable. A- America, what a country.

[47:09] Speaker 3: Right. Right.

[47:11] Speaker 2: And they tell you to have a LLC because it will protect you.

[47:15] Speaker 3: Yeah (laughs) . Yep.

[47:16] Speaker 2: Right?

[47:20] Speaker 1: Okay, so-

[47:21] Speaker 2: The whole thing is with the land... Oh.

[47:23] Speaker 1: Oh, go ahead.

[47:23] Speaker 2: I was just gonna say the whole thing is, with this building, is we, um, we originally had purchased it with the LLC, but then we quitclaimed it to ourselves individually. So the land patent is, is not in the LLC, it's in our names individually.

[47:46] Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, we're gonna get into, into that a little bit. Um, so, okay, so two, two court dates, same day, two different judges, and you got goose eggs from both judges on your motions to dismiss. And I will say here, um, Michigan law is a little bit different than what, what Q was talking about in his experience, right? And that's something you all should know about. Q, in his experience said that they filed a, a motion to dismiss several times and the bank would keep withdrawing their petition and like sell the loan to somebody else, and then they would file the petition to, for evict- and Q would s- keep filing the same motion, and they would keep withdrawing and selling the loan.So, in that jurisdiction, they were allowed to do that, but... L- Like New York, New York allows that to happen. But here in Michigan, um, you can't do that if the other side files what they call a... I- If they... I- If issue is joined, right?

[48:56] Speaker 1: So, issue is joined when the other side files an answer, or here in Michigan, when you file motion to dismiss. You can't withdraw the case. So, that's what Mike and Leah did. They filed a motion to dismiss. The bank, even if they wanted to, wouldn't withdraw the case. They went forward. Um, again, I put that out there so that you guys know because I don't know what jurisdictions you are, uh, you're in and what the rules are, but that's something to look into. So, okay, the motions to dismiss went nowhere. Now you have a hearing scheduled for two weeks, uh, later and then another one for two weeks after that, or something like that. Um, what happened in between those, those two dates?

[49:49] Speaker 4: W- Well, well, we had... We went back to... Went back to the court last week for the school. Is that what you're asking?

[50:00] Speaker 1: Um, well, I was just touching base with federal court.

[50:04] Speaker 3: Okay.

[50:06] Speaker 1: Right? Uh, I don't know if you, you guys want to get into that or no.

[50:11] Speaker 4: Um, I don't know.

[50:13] Speaker 3: Right, right. We, we can.

[50:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean-

[50:17] Speaker 3: If you're... Well-

[50:17] Speaker 1: ... it happened. Again-

[50:19] Speaker 3: Okay.

[50:19] Speaker 1: ... cat's out of the bag.

[50:21] Speaker 3: Yep, okay.

[50:21] Speaker 1: No shot fired on that one. Nothing's gonna change.

[50:24] Speaker 3: Yep.

[50:24] Speaker 1: Um-

[50:25] Speaker 3: Yep.

[50:25] Speaker 1: So, especially what's gonna happen with the next few days, we'll, we'll talk-

[50:28] Speaker 3: Yep.

[50:28] Speaker 1: ... about more details in, in the next show. But we can talk about what's happened up 'til today. No worries.

[50:35] Speaker 3: Okay, okay. Well, I can tell you this. There's been about, I don't know, probably... In, in that two-week (laughs) period, there's probably been, I don't know, 30 papers notarized and sent and signed in... to every direc- every which direction, to... You know, to get to our next level. So, so what we, we were... we did is we knew we were getting nowhere in state court, right? We, we talked about this and we were even arguing with, uh, (laughs) with, uh, the second, um, judge. You know, arguing with him that this is a court of equity, not a court of law. And he's like, "Oh, no, this is a court of law and a court of equity." (laughs) I don't think he liked it too much when we said that, but we, we knew we needed to get out of this equity court. We have to get our... to our constitutional rights. And we thought the only way we can do this is we gotta get up to, uh, our federal court 'cause they will not hear... even hear it.

[51:32] Speaker 3: It's like they don't even acknowledge a federal land patent in our state courts. They don't even... Don't even matter, don't even bat an eye at it. So-

[51:40] Speaker 1: They don't.

[51:40] Speaker 3: We just... Oh, go ahead, Michael.

[51:43] Speaker 1: Uh. The- They don't, uh, acknowledge it. In fact, uh, I... 'Cause I read your papers, the, the lawyer, the bank's lawyer in the eviction process responded to your motion, uh, to dismiss, for lack of summary, uh, subject matter jurisdiction, and he said, "Allodial title does not exist in the United States of America anymore."

[52:05] Speaker 3: Yes, he did.

[52:07] Speaker 1: (laughs) We- Well, well, what court decision or law brought that to an end?

[52:12] Speaker 3: Right?

[52:12] Speaker 1: It's just somehow we got a- away from it. Uh, and if I could just go into a little history here for those folks in Michigan, and something for you all to consider. I did research on the history of Michigan and how it started from the Northwest Territory and how that Northwest Territory eventually was broken up to various states, uh, one of those states being Michigan. And the... They had a constitution for the people of the Northwestern state. And then that, you know, start... was like the, the shoe, the shoehorn to get the constitution, the first constitution for Michigan after it became a state. And then it was revised, uh, three times since then. But if you compare all of the constitutions for the state of Michigan, one, one by one, you'll see that the rights of citizens have been diminished over the years. What they say is, uh, originally there was no right, uh, that was, quote, "protected" with respect to creditors coming in and trying to take your property.

[53:23] Speaker 1: And the first constitution didn't provide for that. Then the second constitution, it said that... They carved out, I think it was like $1,500... $1,500 of personal property and, you know, a certain number of acres cannot be taken from... by, uh, creditors when trying to collect their money. So, it sounds like th- Michigan was trying to protect you, but in fact, they weren't. What they were doing is... I- If you flip it around, it's saying that the banks can come after you for everything except the $1,500 and 40 acres. You see? And that's the way it was enforced. And then a few years later, the one that you're living under now, is they carved out instead of $1,500, $2,500. So, you think that the price... you know, the amount went up and there's more protection, but when you account for inflation, it's far, far less than what $1,500 was, you know, 100 or 150 years ago. So, the Michigan Constitution is providing less protection for you guys. Then you get into case law.

[54:31] Speaker 1: Case law, absolutely solid. It mirrors federal law with respect to federal land patents. They're one and the same.However, federal courts recognize claims for, to quiet title, and that's quiet legal title. I, I talked about this, I believe, in the last show. So you have an action for ejectment, that's in common law, and then you have an, uh, an action to quiet title, that's in equity. However, it... The action to quiet title is a, in federal court anyway, is a special type of remedy. Or excuse me, a special type of action, because equity comes in to protect your legal rights. It prevents others with lesser titles, equitable titles, such as sheriff deeds and mortgages, et cetera, from attacking your title and trying to throw you off the property. So that's federal law. But in Michigan, Michigan doesn't recognize an action to quiet title. In Michigan, quiet title is a remedy. So they give you quiet title. But how you get into court, well, there's one of two ways.

[55:49] Speaker 1: Either through one provision of the statute, which if you read that statue, it says that it's equitable in nature, so that's equity. And then the other one is also equity, specifically says this is an equitable remedy. So those are the only two ways, the only two provisions in Michigan's statutory law that you can have somebody evicted. So when that judge said that, you know, there's a court of law and equity, well not according to the statute, not for eviction proceedings. It's purely equity. So you can't enforce your common law right, or actually your Seventh Amendment right as a federal land patent holder, to a trial by jury in a court of common law, which means that you can't ask for an action to quiet title and prevent lesser titles, like the banks, from attacking your land patent and throwing you off the property. It's kind of crazy, but if you follow Q's process as far as notice and all that, there are the li- there's light at the end of the tunnel, believe me.

[57:02] Speaker 1: As I'm reading this and doing more fr- research, I started yelling, "Q, you're an effing genius. You're an effing genius."

[57:09] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[57:09] Speaker 1: Because... Really, I was so excited, because it's all right there. And we'll get into those details later on, but right now, uh, sorry for the long-winded, you know, i- i- interjection there, but I, I felt that was important to let people know, especially if you're in Michigan. If not, it's something to consider even though you're not in Michigan. So I'm sorry, Michael, go ahead. Uh, I don't remember where, where we left off.

[57:34] Speaker 2: Well-

[57:35] Speaker 3: No. It's-

[57:36] Speaker 2: So I was just gonna say, so then, you know, we did have to go file paperwork at the federal building, which we've never been to ever. And so-

[57:44] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[57:44] Speaker 2: ... it was quite-

[57:46] Speaker 1: So you filed a federal lawsuit?

[57:48] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[57:49] Speaker 3: We did.

[57:49] Speaker 2: And so it was quite interesting. We went in, and I mean, it's just huge building. There's like nobody there, but there was how many, like four, at least security. Mm-hmm We get up there and first they said, "Well, do you have your cell phone?" And they said, "You can't have a cell phone," which is interesting. So we had to take our cell phones back to the car and then come back in and, you know, you have to give them an ID and, and then, I mean, it's like you're flying on an airplane.

[58:15] Speaker 2: You gotta

[58:15] Speaker 3: Yeah. (laughs)

[58:16] Speaker 2: ... go through this security. My, I, he, he even had to take his boots off 'cause they were beeping.

[58:21] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[58:21] Speaker 2: But anyway, so then, yeah, then they directed us where we needed to go and we get in there, it's just this huge building, huge hallway, empty, but we start walking and on the wall it's like, oh, there's President Trump who... (laughs) There's a picture of him up on the wall.

[58:37] Speaker 3: Right on the wall, as soon as you walk in.

[58:38] Speaker 2: Um, but yeah, it was empty. We went, walked all the way down and then, you know, went into the clerk's, um, room. And she, she actually was really nice.

[58:48] Speaker 3: Very nice. Yeah.

[58:49] Speaker 2: Um, but yeah, it was kind of intimidating at first, but now we've walked in there several times and I, I, we think they, they recognize us now. (laughs)

[58:58] Speaker 3: They do. (laughs) Sure do.

[59:00] Speaker 1: They're happy to see you because you're customers.

[59:02] Speaker 3: Right, right. (laughs) Yeah.

[59:06] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[59:07] Speaker 3: Um...

[59:07] Speaker 1: So, uh, has anything happened with, uh, with the federal complaint?

[59:14] Speaker 3: Yeah, it has. We, um, so we filed the original complaint and we got a... Well, we actually saw it on a website that it was given over... And we did get a letter too, didn't we? We got a letter saying that, yes.

[59:33] Speaker 2: Yeah, we did. Yeah.

[59:34] Speaker 3: A letter too saying that it was referred to a-

[59:37] Speaker 2: Ma- magistrate.

[59:39] Speaker 3: ... a magistrate judge or magistrate. I don't, I don't know if it's magistrate judge or magistrate.

[59:43] Speaker 1: Same thing.

[59:43] Speaker 3: Yeah, same thing. Okay.

[59:45] Speaker 2: Yeah. And why don't you explain, Michael, what that, what they are?

[59:48] Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. So, um, y- I know that you touched on something else as well. So judges, if you read the Constitution, there's, uh, the only court that's provided for in the Constitution is the US Supreme Court. And under Article Three of the Constitution, gave Congress the power to create other courts. And that's how we have the Federal District Court, and the, the judges that are assigned to that are Federal District Court judges. But then they do, they do a lot of work, right? And, um, there's some things that they don't want to do, some things they don't have to do. So they came up with the magistrate judge system, I'll call it. They're not Article Three judges. They're not appointed for life. Last, uh, I heard, they were appointed for 10-year terms, um, for an unlimited number of 10-year terms. Uh, and...I've heard several people, David Lester Strait one of them, saying that they're commercial judges, right? That, that they're maritime judges, and they're not real judges.

[01:01:09] Speaker 1: Well, go and try and tell that to the magistrate judge who, who's deciding your case. Uh, a little tough, but yeah. Magistrate judges, a lot of people will summarize it as they do whatever the district judge doesn't want to do, and sometimes they get involved in cases that they're not supposed to. So the rules say that, um, the magistrate judge can work on various cases that the, that the district judge assigns to it. I know if two sides are represented by attorneys, that the district judge will try and get the attorneys to consent, to agree to go to the magistrate judge. But if you're pro se, oftentimes the district judge just automatically refers it to the magistrate judge 'cause they don't want to deal with pro se litigants. You know, they, I guess, th- they have more important cases to do or, or more, less time to, to spend on it. And, um, yeah.

[01:02:11] Speaker 1: I saw somebody recently saying that they filed a complaint or, or a motion or something like that complaining about how pro se litigants automatically get referred to magistrate judges as opposed to attorneys who don't, and she was making some type of an argument saying that violates, I don't know, either constitutional rights or statutory rights, whatever it is. But it, it, it's an issue, and now you're dealing with that, right? You, here you are in the middle of this discussion that people are going on. How does that make you feel?

[01:02:42] Speaker 5: Yeah, that, not good.

[01:02:44] Speaker 3: Right, right.

[01:02:46] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:02:46] Speaker 3: You, you know, you go through this, all this, like, when we've learned so much this last year about, um, courts and the Constitution and... But it's almost like it's trying to, like, they're trying to just pull the whole Constitution right out from underneath us. Like, it's turn- instead of having all these individual rights and your, you know, these God-given rights, it's all given... Th- all this power is given to the corporations now, and these big, you know, the corporations and, and I think the corporations even control a lot of the judges. I, it's the way I feel, like, with what, their decisions they make. Like, like the other one's almost laughing at our land patent, the state court judges, they're li- almost laughing at the land patent.

[01:03:27] Speaker 3: But, and-

[01:03:28] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:03:28] Speaker 3: ... I just feel-

[01:03:29] Speaker 1: Absolutely.

[01:03:29] Speaker 3: ... like it's, it's taking our individual rights or they're pulling them right from us.

[01:03:34] Speaker 1: Yeah. And then they, it seems like th- there's so many rules that you have to jump through in order to get to court, right? The papers have to be a certain way, they got to be filed here, whatever. And I can understand-

[01:03:44] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:44] Speaker 1: ... the need for uniformity, but at some point, it gets so complicated that the average person cannot go out, go into court and just say, "This is my complaint."

[01:03:55] Speaker 3: Right.

[01:03:56] Speaker 1: I don't know what the answer is, but I, I know what we have now sure isn't working.

[01:04:01] Speaker 3: No way.

[01:04:02] Speaker 5: No.

[01:04:03] Speaker 1: And let me just throw this out there too. So a district judge, they're the judge, right? District judge, they, they hear the evidence, they, and they rule however it is, and that's the ruling that you're stuck with. But with a magistrate judge, they are only empowered to make recommendations, right? Opinions or recommendations and I think, uh, opinions. And they say, you know, "I recommend that this case or this claim be dismissed and, and this party be relieved," et cetera, and then that gets reviewed by the district court judge. And more times than not, the district court judge is going to agree. Not all the time. But now you put them in a bind. On a close call that can go either way, the magistrate judge says no, and now the district judge is faced with, "Well, that guy or gal can make my life really difficult if I start being too nitpicky," right?

[01:05:02] Speaker 1: And then they're going to start throwing all of their cases, and now I have to review everything and, and, you know, make my life a lot more difficult. So that's the way I feel, that on a close case, that the district judge will kind of, like, give it to the magistrate judge, and at the expense of the parties, and, and have them lose, uh, unfortunately. Maybe it goes the other way and, you know, the magistrate judge says, "Yeah, sure, come on in, you can sue." But as a very, very experienced lawyer who had a great reputation in federal court as well once told me, their job is to get rid of cases, right? So they're not your friends. I'm sorry. So go ahead, Michael. Or Leah, pick up, please.

[01:05:53] Speaker 5: Well, I, so I was just gonna say we sent a letter, um, just saying that we object to this referral and that we want to be heard by an Article III judge.

[01:06:05] Speaker 1: Good for you.

[01:06:06] Speaker 5: Yeah. So.

[01:06:10] Speaker 1: And now, Michael, you said, also said something earlier about, uh, the docket, the cover sheet. Uh, I'll just put it out there, when you file a complaint, you also have to fill out what's called a civil cover sheet, and basically it's just for stats for the court to monitor what types of cases are coming in, et cetera. And you have to check certain blocks on the specific type of case, h- what, what are the damages, what are you looking for, and stuff like that. And you guys, I believe, checked property other, because there was no block for an action for ejectment or an action to quiet title.

[01:06:49] Speaker 3: Correct.

[01:06:49] Speaker 1: What happened, what happened with that?

[01:06:54] Speaker 5: Well, they just put it, uh, so they marked it as, uh, foreclosure, real property foreclosure, and so-

[01:07:03] Speaker 2: ... which is a whole nother issue.

[01:07:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not accurate.

[01:07:08] Speaker 2: Because like, like... Yeah, right, it's not accurate.

[01:07:11] Speaker 1: And then-

[01:07:11] Speaker 2: And so I think that's probably why they referred us.

[01:07:15] Speaker 1: Uh, I wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised at all. Uh, and not only did they mark it as foreclosure, but they also marked it as foreclosure and a civil rights case under Section 1983. You didn't put Section 1983 anywhere in your papers.

[01:07:32] Speaker 3: Nowhere, no.

[01:07:34] Speaker 1: No. And Section ninety- 1983 actually goes against the government, or those who are conspiring with government actors. And in foreclosure, typically it goes against individuals, right? So, how can you sue an individual for foreclosing, but they're also a state actor? The two just... It, it, it's in conflict. And I feel... In, in my experience, I've had people in the clerk's office actually torpedo cases, you know? And by doing that, they discredit you before anybody even looks at your papers. "Oh, here we go. Crazy pro se defendant asking for foreclosure and civil rights action against the people that are foreclosing on them." Well, they know nothing. So right off the bat, you're... You know, you're discredited. It's unfortunate.

[01:08:30] Speaker 3: It is.

[01:08:31] Speaker 1: So that's the letter... I'm sorry. So Leah, that's, that's the letter that you sent asking them to correct the, the docket and also to have a judge, uh, an Article III judge preside over your case, right?

[01:08:43] Speaker 2: Yeah. We did two separate letters, actually.

[01:08:47] Speaker 1: Cool.

[01:08:48] Speaker 2: Yep.

[01:08:49] Speaker 1: And then, um, you guys filed a, an amended complaint too, right?

[01:08:56] Speaker 2: Yes. Yep.

[01:08:58] Speaker 1: Cool. So, we have a first amended complaint. Uh, that's... You're waiting for the other side, the bank's attorney to respond to in federal court. And then you had a hearing, which we're about to get into, in one court, and another hearing in a third court. That's still coming up. So let's get into that first hearing that you already had for the eviction.

[01:09:29] Speaker 3: Yeah, so, so, so we were there for that, again, in person.

[01:09:34] Speaker 2: With no attorney.

[01:09:35] Speaker 3: With no attorney.

[01:09:36] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[01:09:36] Speaker 3: Their at-... Their attorney, um, the bank's attorney's on Zoom. He's not there. And we go in and he asks us if we've a- been able to get an attorney. And we had to tell him, "No, we have... We, we were not able to find one." And I did call the, the... Where he recommended us, um, we called the place. Still, uh, had no success there. Um, and so when we were there, i- he's asking us, "Well," basically, "Well, then you...

[01:10:11] Speaker 3: You can't represent yourself." And-

[01:10:14] Speaker 2: But kind of before you even started that, you talked about, you know, that there was another complaint and that you wanted the court-

[01:10:22] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:10:22] Speaker 2: ... to take initial notice-

[01:10:23] Speaker 3: Yep.

[01:10:23] Speaker 2: ... because we had a- another complaint with the federal court.

[01:10:27] Speaker 3: Right.

[01:10:27] Speaker 2: So it was.

[01:10:28] Speaker 3: Yeah, so ver- basically telling them that we had... There's another complaint filed at the federal court. There's a, a box when we got our, our, um, court documents from the attorney from the bank. He had to check a box and it said there's no other... He checked the box, says there's no other, um, actions happening right now. This, what we were trying to argue is there is. There is a complaint filed with the federal court and right here on your paragraph two of the plaintiff's complaint, um... And that's their form. It's their State of Michigan form. It's nothing to lead you. It's their own form. Um, they checked a box that say that there's no other pending cases going on. And I said, "This is untrue.

[01:11:14] Speaker 3: Don't try to tell me this is untrue." And then-

[01:11:16] Speaker 2: And the judge was like, "What?" And he's very soft-spoken and slow.

[01:11:21] Speaker 3: Can hardly hear him.

[01:11:22] Speaker 2: "Well, I don't..." Yeah, you can... I could hardly hear. I heard every other word. Um, uh, I think he did that on purpose, doesn't speak into the microphone. Um, but he said, "Well, I don't see why we can't go forward with this. I don't see why there can't be two cases. This case was first." You know? So he didn't care.

[01:11:42] Speaker 3: No, he did not.

[01:11:44] Speaker 1: I remember him asking 'cause I was there for that one too. And, uh, he asked you, "Well, when was that filed? Before or after this case?"

[01:11:52] Speaker 3: Right.

[01:11:54] Speaker 1: Right?

[01:11:54] Speaker 3: And we told him, "Yep, it was filed after."

[01:11:57] Speaker 1: No. Right. The, the federal court was filed after the bank's foreclosure.

[01:12:02] Speaker 3: No.

[01:12:02] Speaker 1: And I'm sitting there, you know, screaming to myself, "Who gives a damn?" The, the, the complaint just gets you into court. The other side needs to prove everything in their complaint, right? They... There's certain elements that you have to have, that have to be true in order to win. At the time of trial, or at the time of the hearing. You were there for a hearing. And (laughs) , and he couldn't care less. I was like...

[01:12:34] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:34] Speaker 1: It was absolutely astonishing. Astonishing. Once again, the, the... And this was the second judge. So neither judge follows the law. And one of them certainly doesn't even know the law. The other one doesn't know the facts and doesn't care. Unbelievable.

[01:12:52] Speaker 2: Right.

[01:12:56] Speaker 1: So go ahead, guys.

[01:12:58] Speaker 2: I mean, we weren't... We weren't in there too long.

[01:13:02] Speaker 3: No, it was... It was fairly short.

[01:13:04] Speaker 2: Yeah, because there was nothing... They had no papers to look at, and he wouldn't listen to anything, you know, Mike said about-... you know, the other pending case, and... yeah. You know, I was gonna ask, you know, you said something about, you know, when, when the attorney was the witness?

[01:13:25] Speaker 1: Yes.

[01:13:26] Speaker 2: Um, did you say that that was not allowed, or?

[01:13:31] Speaker 1: Well, in... under Michigan law, the attorney is allowed to, to serve as a witness as well, apparently.

[01:13:38] Speaker 2: Oh, it was? Okay.

[01:13:40] Speaker 1: But in New York, that would never happen, right? No. Uh-

[01:13:44] Speaker 2: I see.

[01:13:44] Speaker 1: ... that would be an ethical violation. And in fact, if you're gonna be a witness, then you have to, uh, withdraw from the case and stop being the lawyer. You can't be both. So, when I saw him, you know, start getting ready to, to testify, automatically I started talking to, to my partner next to me. I'm like, "Wait, can you believe this? He's about to testify." (laughs) And I missed him getting sworn in and everything, but-

[01:14:05] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:14:05] Speaker 1: ... yeah, that, that was, that was quite an eye-opener.

[01:14:10] Speaker 2: Yeah. So they just went ahead and that was that?

[01:14:14] Speaker 3: Yeah. W- we were in there, very, 10 minutes-

[01:14:16] Speaker 2: Going against us and-

[01:14:17] Speaker 3: Yeah. And the judge, uh, uh, and I, I just said that, you know, I tried to tell him, "We have a federal land patent." I just tried to say it. He wouldn't listen to anything we said.

[01:14:26] Speaker 2: He left, basically.

[01:14:27] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[01:14:27] Speaker 3: Yeah, he left. And he's like, "Well, I didn't..." What, he said something like, "I, I didn't learn that in my..."

[01:14:33] Speaker 2: His schooling or whatever.

[01:14:34] Speaker 3: Yeah, his schooling or whatever it was. He made a comment-

[01:14:36] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:14:36] Speaker 3: ... like that.

[01:14:38] Speaker 1: I remember that. He goes, "Yeah, uh, I, I must've missed that in law school."

[01:14:43] Speaker 3: Must've missed that in law school-

[01:14:44] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:14:44] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:14:44] Speaker 3: ... that's what he said.

[01:14:46] Speaker 1: But, you know, but then I went to a law school where, that taught Michigan law.

[01:14:50] Speaker 3: Right.

[01:14:51] Speaker 1: And there I am again, you know, jumping up and down inside saying, "Well then obviously you should've paid attention, you know?" Because Michigan law, case law, according to the highest court in Michigan, the Michigan Supreme Court, recognizes federal land patents as being supreme title. Just like the federal courts do. But the problem in Michigan is that the s- the state legislature has abrogated those rights, right? By changing the laws on how you can get into courts and which courts you get into, law, common law, versus equity. They did away with the rights. You can't defend yourself anymore, and that's why people in Michigan are getting absolutely hammered. That's why you have the, the 40 people up there, you know, being evicted.

[01:15:39] Speaker 1: So-

[01:15:39] Speaker 2: Yep.

[01:15:39] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Very disheartening.

[01:15:42] Speaker 2: Yes.

[01:15:42] Speaker 3: For sure. There's actually a, uh, a New Products Corp, there's actually a Michigan state law that says that. They, they, it actually said that with the enactment of MCL600.2932, the legislature did not expressly abrogate the common law action for ejectment, although one might conclude that the legislature implicitly abrogated the common law action for ejectment. So, I mean, they're talking about it. They've been talking about this, and that was just in 2014.

[01:16:13] Speaker 1: Yeah. That was a case by the, by the, uh, Court of Appeals from Michigan.

[01:16:17] Speaker 3: Yes, yes.

[01:16:17] Speaker 1: Appellate court law saying that.

[01:16:20] Speaker 3: Yep.

[01:16:20] Speaker 1: Ugh. Great, great citation, Michael. Thanks for bringing that out.

[01:16:25] Speaker 3: Yes.

[01:16:29] Speaker 1: Okay, so you, you, you got lynched in your first eviction hearing (laughs) .

[01:16:35] Speaker 3: Right (laughs) .

[01:16:37] Speaker 2: Yes.

[01:16:38] Speaker 1: No, no due process. Weren't given the opportunity to be heard. It's just, you know, the, the, just put in the meat grinder. That's the only thing I can think of. And they go on after L&M, and this is the thing that, that, that, you know, really sticks to me. I mean, the, the action, like you said, was against the corporation. But you were standing there as an individual saying, "But Judge, I have a federal land patent." You would think that he would give you an opportunity to, to talk about that, right?

[01:17:07] Speaker 3: Right.

[01:17:07] Speaker 1: I mean, they're talking about taking your home away.

[01:17:11] Speaker 3: Right.

[01:17:11] Speaker 1: And, and throwing you out on a street. Well, this, this was the other building. It's not the home.

[01:17:16] Speaker 2: The business.

[01:17:16] Speaker 1: It's still your property, right? It's still... They're about to take your property.

[01:17:20] Speaker 2: But it... Yeah, and it's not just our... I mean, this is our dream, actually. I mean, it's our community center. It's what, you know, we've talked on for, what, the last year? Actually, probably a couple years. Um, it, there's a, it's a, there's a huge vision, and it's our dream. And, and it's our kids' dreams too. We have such big plans, so yeah, it's a-

[01:17:43] Speaker 3: For our community-

[01:17:44] Speaker 2: It's, it's for our community.

[01:17:44] Speaker 3: ... and for the state really.

[01:17:46] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:17:49] Speaker 1: And he wouldn't even hear you. He wouldn't even hear you.

[01:17:53] Speaker 3: No.

[01:17:55] Speaker 1: Well, um, okay. So, you left there and, uh, what happened after that?

[01:18:04] Speaker 2: Well, we're... Just more paperwork (laughs) with the federal court.

[01:18:09] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[01:18:09] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[01:18:10] Speaker 2: Lots of paperwork.

[01:18:12] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:18:12] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[01:18:13] Speaker 1: Yeah. So, that's, uh, if memory serves, I guess you, you started cranking out some, the, the first minute complaint, and I'm actually, I actually joined that one. So, it's now the three of us as plaintiffs on that.

[01:18:27] Speaker 2: Yep.

[01:18:27] Speaker 1: Um, and I'm looking forward to that going, going f- you know, getting going.

[01:18:34] Speaker 2: Yes.

[01:18:35] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. We still... Honestly, this is still... We still feel good about this. It's like, you get roadbro- blocks, roadblocks. We kind of knew this. I mean, (laughs) I was just listening to another, one of the old Q calls today and he's just like, "We got, just, we got one document. You guys, just let me... We got, we got one document that'll keep you... You won't even have to go to court. Keep you right out of court."

[01:19:01] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[01:19:01] Speaker 1: Never got to see that document. It's just funny.

[01:19:03] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[01:19:03] Speaker 1: I just, I go, "Man. Sounds so easy." But we knew there was gonna be some roadblocks. We, we, we knew this. And so we're gonna just, we're gonna keep punching, and we're gonna keep punching until we get what we want. That's just all there is to it.

[01:19:18] Speaker 3: ... there, th, earth is a fight in us that we're not stopping, no matter what.

[01:19:23] Speaker 2: You know, and I was just listening also to another, uh, Q call. We, we do that often, and we get more. Each time we listen to him, we get something different each time. But I was listening to one probably, I think it was, like, back in maybe September or October. I can't remember exactly. But, um, he was talking about, you know, calling in and putting it on the air and... Because when you do that, as he says, lots of people are listening. And I know right now, a lot of people are listening. And so, that's why I was really happy about doing this tonight, because it needs to be put on the air so that those higher powers (laughs) know exactly what's going on.

[01:20:09] Speaker 2: So-

[01:20:10] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:20:10] Speaker 2: ... I'm, I'm glad we're doing this.

[01:20:11] Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

[01:20:13] Speaker 1: A- and I'm glad you said that, because now I, I want to go back to that, the hearing, the eviction hearing. Uh, the lynching, I should say. Why don't you tell the audience what happened with, you know... As you were going in there and, and he had other people on the video listening in? Right? Because l- let me set it up. So, you're in the courtroom. You two, me and maybe a handful of other people, all of us together were there for just you two. Right? Uh, we were there twice for you guys. The first time, you had more people, uh, a bunch of your friends too, or work or something like that. Um, so everybody in the courtroom, aside from the people that work there, were there to support you. And then you had these big flat screen TV screens, right? Uh, with several blocks, kind of like, you know, a Zoom call, I'm sure everybody's seen that, that's just chock full of different cases waiting to be heard.

[01:21:14] Speaker 1: And if you're on that screen, that means that you're not in the waiting room, that you can actually listen to what's going on in the courtroom. And as you're sitting there trying to, to make your case about lack of subject matter jurisdiction and being a land patent holder, what happened, Mike and Leah?

[01:21:33] Speaker 2: Well, he, the judge made sure everybody was off the screen. He told everybody, whoever else was still on there, that they could leave, and it was just the attorney that was left on there. Pretty sure he did that on purpose. (laughs)

[01:21:49] Speaker 1: He absolutely did. He absolutely did. His tone changed, like, I, I was there.

[01:21:56] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:21:56] Speaker 1: He absolutely... And that's when I go back to due process and having a public trial. You, you two, I saw it, I've been in the courtroom for 20 years, you two were lynched. You were lynched. You weren't given a due process at all, but he didn't want anybody to see that.

[01:22:13] Speaker 2: No. Man.

[01:22:14] Speaker 1: See? So it's a lot easier if people are in the courtroom, you can't say, "Clear the courtroom. That's outrageous." Too obvious, right? But if they're on the screen-

[01:22:21] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:22:21] Speaker 1: ... you say, "Oh, yeah, you're done. We're done with you. You can go now, you can go now." See? And you don't let anybody else in.

[01:22:29] Speaker 3: Well, remember?

[01:22:30] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:22:30] Speaker 3: He did stop us too.

[01:22:31] Speaker 2: And he, he asked who, who, who you guys were sitting-

[01:22:35] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:22:35] Speaker 1: That's right. (laughs)

[01:22:36] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:22:37] Speaker 3: He, he did.

[01:22:37] Speaker 2: We said, "Some friends." Like, why was he even asking that?

[01:22:41] Speaker 3: Right.

[01:22:41] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:22:41] Speaker 2: 'Cause anybody can be sitting there.

[01:22:42] Speaker 3: But then... R- remember, there was a... Actually, when I was talking, there was, um, somebody that popped back up on the screen after he had cleared it.

[01:22:53] Speaker 1: Uh-huh.

[01:22:53] Speaker 3: And he halted me. He looked at me 'cause he, he had saw Leah pointing to, to something that she was wanting me to say on my paper and he goes... Um, said, "Hey, you might want to talk to your wife. It looks like she needs something, needs to tell you something." And I s- and I'm thinking, "Okay." And then during that time, he just wanted to get the other person that was on that screen off of there. So he, he interjected, started dealing with that person, and got them out of there, got them cleared, got them off the screen, took care of their question they had, and then he came back to us. I don't know if you guys saw that or not.

[01:23:32] Speaker 1: I did. I did.

[01:23:33] Speaker 2: No, I didn't.

[01:23:33] Speaker 3: Yeah, he did. He actually did that. That was why he said, "Talk to Leah." You know? That's what he said-

[01:23:39] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:23:39] Speaker 3: ... "You might want to talk to your wife."

[01:23:41] Speaker 1: Sure, sure.

[01:23:41] Speaker 3: To let that guy come out. Yeah, get off of the screen.

[01:23:44] Speaker 1: Sure, so more we can see the lynching. Yeah. What, what happened there was, was not right. So, ah, frustrated. Okay. Where, where were we before I brought us back to here? I don't even remember anymore. My memory's, short-term memory-

[01:24:01] Speaker 2: Um-

[01:24:01] Speaker 1: ... is actually shit.

[01:24:02] Speaker 2: Yeah. (laughs) Just that we, we have filed some more paperwork, um, at the court, at the federal court. And so I think we're just kind of... We're waiting for that to go through.

[01:24:14] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna.

[01:24:16] Speaker 1: So... An- and I have to say that, um, I saw, I saw your first minute complaint, right? We all collaborated on it, uh, and the more research I do into these issues and what Q taught us and the case law that's out there, the Michigan statutory law that's out there, I feel more and more confident that this is going to happen. The question is, at what level and how many people will it help? Because if you win at the district court level, it's great, you won, and it helps people in just that one district. But if for some reason it has to get appealed or the other side takes the appeal and then we win at the circuit court level, just be- just below the US Supreme Court, well, now we help people in several states. And then, of course, if it gets to the US Supreme Court and they hear the case, we will win there as well. Uh, at, at least if they follow the current law, we will.... then we help the entire country. So, yeah, I am more and more confident, uh, with this.

[01:25:27] Speaker 1: And if people are curious, go ahead and, and pull that First Amendment complaint. I don't recommend you just cut and paste and, and think that you'll be able to do it on your own, 'cause it, it's pretty nerve-wracking, right? Mike and Leah, ooh, let me ask you this. If we weren't able to, to collaborate together, if you just had to do it on your own, how do you think you would've done?

[01:25:51] Speaker 2: Um, yeah, no.

[01:25:54] Speaker 3: V- very difficult.

[01:25:55] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:25:55] Speaker 3: Very difficult.

[01:25:56] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:25:56] Speaker 3: The, the amount of documentation, uh, it, it is, it is... You wouldn't believe it unless you could see the stacks of papers and research, and it's, it's unbelievable.

[01:26:09] Speaker 2: It's been a team, team effort. That's for sure.

[01:26:12] Speaker 1: Absolutely.

[01:26:12] Speaker 2: So-

[01:26:13] Speaker 1: Absolutely. Um, and, and I say that not to scare people, right? But just to give you a heads-up. Like, make sure you know what, what you're getting into. Don't let ego get in the way and start taking off, right? Like Q used to say, "I know some of you, I'm not gonna be able to, to stop, I'm not gonna be able to hold back." Um, but if you wanna do it, have at it, but do your homework. Absolutely. Wow, we've been going for about an hour and a half.

[01:26:41] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[01:26:41] Speaker 3: Is that... (laughs) Yeah. That's great.

[01:26:46] Speaker 1: So, we're... That one case, let's, let's go back to the eviction case. So you lost there. Are you still in, in, on the property, or did they throw you out yet? What, what's ha- what are you waiting for?

[01:26:59] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, we're, we're still on the property. Um, we got a notice, um, but it wasn't from the court. So they gave us a date, and then it said if we weren't out by that date, then they would get the eviction, uh, notice signed by the, um, judge. Yeah. So, we don't have that yet.

[01:27:22] Speaker 1: Okay. And, uh, all right. We won't get into strategy as far-

[01:27:28] Speaker 2: No.

[01:27:28] Speaker 1: ... as how you're going to deal with that, right? I wanna stay away from that.

[01:27:31] Speaker 2: Yep.

[01:27:32] Speaker 1: But that's out there. Then you have the, the complaint in federal court. You're waiting for the other side to respond, to answer. Uh, we'll leave that there, and then you have the third case, which is the second state court case, the second, uh, eviction case. Uh, what... Where's that at?

[01:27:55] Speaker 2: So, yeah, that's, that's coming up.

[01:27:58] Speaker 3: That's coming up here, and... But this one is one that we don't... We don't know how it's gonna go. Maybe, maybe there's... Or at least we're able to argue. We're able to, to, to speak at this one because we can represent ourselves. So, maybe, we're hopeful.

[01:28:15] Speaker 2: And like I said, this is the one that doesn't have the fringes on the flag. So I'm like, I'm really hoping-

[01:28:22] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[01:28:22] Speaker 2: ... that maybe now he will actually listen to the, um, motion to dismiss-

[01:28:28] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[01:28:28] Speaker 2: ... for lack of subject matter jurisdiction, and we can actually go through the papers.

[01:28:33] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[01:28:34] Speaker 2: So we'll see.

[01:28:36] Speaker 1: All right. (laughs) You guys are certainly busy.

[01:28:40] Speaker 3: Hopefully he cleared his afternoon.

[01:28:42] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[01:28:43] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[01:28:43] Speaker 2: Oh, and he did make... He did say that that was an in-person. So, um, the, the attorneys for the other side will be there as well. So, I don't think they do that very often, but I think it's because when we came, we were all prepared and, you know, had our little briefcase and all of our paperwork, and, and he said-

[01:29:02] Speaker 1: (coughs)

[01:29:02] Speaker 2: ... "Make sure that we have copies. Make sure that we have copies for him." So, we'll see.

[01:29:09] Speaker 1: Okay. There's a lot going on. Um, and your, uh, your kids are still excited about everything that's going on?

[01:29:22] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:29:23] Speaker 2: Yeah, they are. We've got... Everybody's helping out-

[01:29:26] Speaker 3: Yep.

[01:29:26] Speaker 2: ... in one way or another. And we've got one, our one daughter, she's in the office, and she's been helping a lot with the paperwork and... Um, but yeah, the kids are, you know, a little nervous.

[01:29:39] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:29:39] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[01:29:40] Speaker 3: Yeah. But I did ask them.

[01:29:41] Speaker 1: And Mike, you-

[01:29:42] Speaker 3: I said... Yeah, go ahead.

[01:29:43] Speaker 1: Mike, go ahead.

[01:29:45] Speaker 3: I did ask him, I said, "So, what do you guys think? You guys still excited? What happens if we get a letter and, you know, they wanna squash this thing and come up with an agreement?" And my kids are still wanting to fight. So-

[01:29:57] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[01:29:57] Speaker 3: ... they're... I'm, I'm impressed.

[01:30:00] Speaker 1: That's awesome.

[01:30:00] Speaker 3: I'm impressed. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:30:03] Speaker 1: Chips off the blocks.

[01:30:05] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:30:06] Speaker 1: Apples didn't fall far from the trees.

[01:30:08] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[01:30:08] Speaker 1: So, Mike, you, you must be getting hammered because you're still working and you're doing all this other legal stuff too.

[01:30:15] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, so it's... We're putting in some OT right now, but-

[01:30:19] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[01:30:19] Speaker 3: ... but it's worth it. It's, it's definitely worth it. I tell you, I get to drive a lot for, for what I do, and I listen to a lot of shows, um, and it's, it's so crazy. I listened to one today from March 8th of 2025, and you were on it, of, of, of Q's show, and it's just funny. Listening to him talk to you about taking his show over, it's-

[01:30:43] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[01:30:43] Speaker 3: ... it's like...

[01:30:44] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[01:30:46] Speaker 3: It's... It was that, was what I listened to today.

[01:30:47] Speaker 2: Oh, then it's fine. (laughs)

[01:30:49] Speaker 1: (laughs) Well, I remember that one. He said, "No, I couldn't do it because I didn't actually do the process myself."

[01:30:54] Speaker 3: That's right. That's right.

[01:30:56] Speaker 1: I think we've checked that block now. (laughs)

[01:30:58] Speaker 3: I think that's a check.

[01:31:01] Speaker 1: Uh, but I understand-

[01:31:02] Speaker 3: Yep.

[01:31:02] Speaker 1: ... his show's already taken over, so-

[01:31:04] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:31:06] Speaker 1: ... so much for that.

[01:31:07] Speaker 3: Yep. Yep.

[01:31:07] Speaker 1: We're, we're going for... We're going a different direction here.

[01:31:10] Speaker 3: Yep.

[01:31:10] Speaker 1: But still, still thorns, but still... I, I, uh... What's the word I'm looking for? We're still supporting the effort-

[01:31:18] Speaker 3: Right.

[01:31:19] Speaker 1: ... of homesteading, right? Yeah.

[01:31:21] Speaker 2: You know, and I just want to say, like, it... You know, it might sound crazy to some people, but it's, like, we feel so strongly about this that, like, we're willing to put this all on the line. Not just for us, it's, it's for everyone. And it's like, I would rather fight as hard as we can and, and lose everything than to not try. I know that probably sounds really crazy to people because, I mean, we've got... We have a lot going on, you know, like, good in our life, but I just... You know, I was actually, we were talking, I was talking to our girls, um, earlier today and we were talking about our, our community center and, and we already have some things in it, so it is open for, you know, some things. But we have s-... We have so many dreams for that place, you know, and I just think, "You know what?

[01:32:16] Speaker 2: If it's not gonna happen the way we want it to happen, like, in this new, you know, world, this heaven on earth new world, then I don't want it." Like, I don't wanna, I don't want the building then because what I want is what I see in the future. Well, it's right there. It's not... It's, like, right in front of us. Um, but I just... I feel like this is just worth fighting for 'cause like I said, it's not, it's not, it's not about the... We're not fighting just to, so we don't have to pay our mortgage. It has nothing... I mean, we, we can afford to pay our mortgage. It's not that. It's just, we're fighting for America.

[01:32:53] Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.

[01:32:54] Speaker 2: I mean, we're fighting for our rights, for, for everybody. And so, I don't know, we're just, we're putting it all out there. I don't know.

[01:33:03] Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

[01:33:04] Speaker 1: But, you, and, and I, I can't, I can't thank you guys enough for doing this. Um, I mean, you, you asked for this fight for everybody else, like you said.

[01:33:13] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:33:13] Speaker 1: And I'm sure there are people out there saying, "Oh, no, they're just trying to get out of the mortgage and everything." But one-

[01:33:19] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[01:33:19] Speaker 1: ... you, you can afford to, to pay the mortgage back, both of them. You know, that wasn't the issue. And, and if, even if you weren't able to do that, why don't you tell them about the offer that one of your close friends made to you?

[01:33:35] Speaker 2: Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead.

[01:33:35] Speaker 3: And that's... This is why it's so important that every- all this works out because we have so many good people that surround us. Michael, the people that just are willing to help and offer their assistance. And I, honestly, I get calls probably three times a week, people asking about this. "How's it going? How's it going?" That want it... They want this to work because they want to do it. One, one of my great friends says, "Just tell me, uh, 'cause I'm gonna be number two. You know, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna be the second person doing it." There's so many people that want to do it, but we have a really, really, really good friend of me that I've looked up to a lot. He's, he's, he's one of the guys in, in my life, been, been part of my life for eight years, and I really, really respect him. One of the s- smartest men I've ever met in my life. And he told me and Leah...

[01:34:25] Speaker 3: We were sitting the other day, and he said, "Guys," he's getting close to retirement now, and he says, "I have some money. Why don't you guys just let me pay these off for you? I'll just pay them, you guys pay me back when you can." And that, you know, about brings tears to your eyes 'cause you're like, what? Somebody would do that for you? Right You, you'd ha-... Somebody would offer that? And he was genuine, sincere, and we told him we loved him and thanked him, and said, "You know what? You are the best person," 'cause not many people would have somebody like that that, that would offer that up, but he did. And just, that's the kind of people we have around us, and that's the kind of people that are gonna be part of what we're doing in this community and for the state.

[01:35:05] Speaker 3: Like, that's what we're doing with this, these kind of people

[01:35:09] Speaker 2: But we turned him down.

[01:35:11] Speaker 3: Yep, we said thank-

[01:35:11] Speaker 2: Because it's not, it's not about... It's not about the money.

[01:35:15] Speaker 3: Yep.

[01:35:16] Speaker 2: Because if we've gone this far and then we just cave and take the money and take the deal, then it's for nothing.

[01:35:24] Speaker 3: Yep.

[01:35:25] Speaker 2: And so we're not willing to do that.

[01:35:28] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:35:28] Speaker 2: We're in this fight (crying) .

[01:35:31] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:35:31] Speaker 1: And, uh, now that... Thank you, because that's a perfect segue for, for this, right? What exactly are you fighting for? What, what, what's the object here?

[01:35:42] Speaker 3: Our object is to make people have, have property that can never be taken away from somebody. You, you should be able to have shelter. You should be able to have a roof over your head. And, and if anybody that's listening disagrees with me, I encourage you, if you're... Go to the courthouse. Ours, at our... Courthouse in our county is every Thursday. Go to the courthouse and just listen to it. Just go in there and sit there for 10 minutes, and you'll just be appalled. I- if you got any type of heart at all, you're gonna be appalled. Everybody deserves to have a, have a home, h- have a, have a shelter, and could not be taken away.

[01:36:21] Speaker 2: No matter what.

[01:36:22] Speaker 3: No matter what.

[01:36:25] Speaker 1: And once you have that, you have your own little piece of the pie, so to speak, right? Your own little plot of land, then you can grow your own food. You know where-

[01:36:34] Speaker 3: That's right.

[01:36:34] Speaker 1: ... where it's coming from, right? And, and it's healthy and it's clean, and, and it's... The energetics are related directly to you, which means that it'll be even healthier for you and your family, and then it just grows from there, you know? Getting into this, all this commercial with the flash and the bling, uh, is just... That's not the way it's supposed to be.

[01:36:58] Speaker 3: That's right. That's-

[01:36:59] Speaker 1: For the people out there, for the listeners who, who, um... I don't want to say the new age group, but, you know, who, who are open and realize that we are not the only ones in this universe, this multiverse. There are other life forms, very intelligent, far more intelligent than we are. Call them aliens, call them, um, you know, other dimensional beings, whatever you want, there's other life out there.And, uh, there has been contact by humans for centuries, but certainly most recently. And there's somebody in that community, um, Alex Collier. Alex Collier has... He's out there. He has a website and he talks about his life experiences with the Andromedons. He calls him the As, right, A for Andromedon. And he talks about this one time where he's ha- having a conversation with one of the, the senior members of the Andromedons that communicate with him.

[01:38:06] Speaker 1: And th- th- I can't for- I don't remember how he got into the conversation, but Alex is trying to explain to him, like, the whole commercial thing that we do here and how we pay for things and have jobs and we have to do this. And, and he just... Th- this, this senior Andromedon looks at Alex, Alex Collier and says, "Why do you have to pay to live on a planet that you were born on?"

[01:38:32] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:38:33] Speaker 1: Right? Think about that.

[01:38:35] Speaker 2: Yeah. For sure

[01:38:35] Speaker 1: Right? Why do you have to pay to live on a planet that you were born on? That means that there's other planets out there, plenty of them. You can go to all the others, but that one that you were born on is special and it provides for you. That's the law of the universe out there. But we've gotten away from that because of, well, the, the Kazarians, right, the cabal, the deep state, however you want to say that. We need to get away from that and go back to the roots. And once we do, watch what the Earth will provide to us. Not just food and water, but energetics and life and you name it, it goes on from there. But like Mike and Lee are trying to, to show everybody, it starts with your own little piece of land where you can take care of your own, where you're safe and secure, and then you branch out and grow from there.

[01:39:34] Speaker 2: Yeah. And our intention too is we've got property, you know, behind our house and... You know, we have four kids and our intention is to have them, you know, a big homestead where we're all within a ride- You know, well, we've got, uh, you know, four-

[01:39:49] Speaker 3: Right.

[01:39:50] Speaker 2: ... wheelers and a side-by-side. And, you know, it's just, that's what it's about, and having your family. You know, my parents live right, you know, near and so it's just... It's important to, um, you know, I think, have your family near and, and home.

[01:40:07] Speaker 3: Well, just having your, having your place that you know, no matter what happens to mom and dad, everything's here. Nothing, nothing can get taken away from them. You want to be able to have... They can have the pro- the property forever and ever, and nothing, nothing's gonna take it. They c- they're able to live there. They're always gonna have a shelter or a place to call home, no matter what.

[01:40:28] Speaker 2: And imagine when that stress is taken off people. I mean, that's the majority of everyone's stress, is to pay their hou- their mortgage or rent. Um, they're basically... They're living. They're, or they're working to pay their house payment and their car payment.

[01:40:44] Speaker 3: Right.

[01:40:46] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:40:46] Speaker 2: That's what everybody lives for.

[01:40:48] Speaker 3: Until you're 60.

[01:40:49] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:40:49] Speaker 3: And then hopefully you got it paid off by then.

[01:40:52] Speaker 1: (laughs) Hopefully.

[01:40:54] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:40:54] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:40:54] Speaker 1: Yeah. They say the, the housing cost should be no more than I think 30%, but oftentimes it's over 50%. I mean, we get hammered. No matter where you turn, it's just more, pay more, pay more, work more, work harder. It's ridiculous. That all needs to come to an end. And you guys are, are the spearheads for, for making that happen, bringing that to fruition.

[01:41:19] Speaker 3: And that's why we love when, when President Trump said that about, you know, corporations don't live in homes, people do. That's... It's so true.

[01:41:26] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:41:27] Speaker 3: This is all we're saying. Don't... Just, just let people live. Just let them live and quit threatening them to take their home, take their home. And that's a, that's a huge threat. That's a... You know, for somebody to take your home, take your... That's, that's everything to you. You got to have shelter. So, we're trying to fight it. That's... This is what we're fighting.

[01:41:46] Speaker 1: You're not trying, you're gonna do it. We're gonna do it.

[01:41:48] Speaker 3: Yep.

[01:41:49] Speaker 1: Absolutely.

[01:41:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

[01:41:50] Speaker 1: I've never seen, uh-

[01:41:52] Speaker 3: Yep.

[01:41:52] Speaker 1: ... I've never been more confident about a case, ever before in my life. It's gonna happen. The facts are there, the law is there, the policy there is there, the energetics are there. It's phenomenal.

[01:42:05] Speaker 3: Well, you, you just mentioned something earlier that made me think. You know, you've got our federal court here that we're in, and depending what they decide, are we gonna, are we gonna win there? And they're gonna let us just help control our little county? You know, our little... They're gonna go to a cir- Uh, they're gonna deny us or- And then we have to go to a circuit court and then we can help a, you know, few states? Or are we gonna have to go to the Supreme Court and make it to where we help the whole country? And so, I'm gonna put the ball in their court. They're gonna have to figure out who they want us to... How many people they want us to help. So, are they gonna approve it now or they're gonna wait until we go all the way to the top? So, that's on them.

[01:42:40] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[01:42:41] Speaker 3: We're gonna have

[01:42:43] Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to it. It's gonna be one heck of a ride.

[01:42:46] Speaker 3: Yep.

[01:42:49] Speaker 1: Okay, so we're starting to get short on time. Um, let me start wrapping it up. Uh, you guys wanna have, have anything else to say with respect to your, your legal issues?

[01:43:03] Speaker 3: I don't think so, with those. I don't.

[01:43:05] Speaker 2: Nope.

[01:43:06] Speaker 1: Okay. So then, new areas, you want to talk about anything else? Other subjects?

[01:43:15] Speaker 2: Other subjects. I don't think so.

[01:43:21] Speaker 1: I have something.

[01:43:22] Speaker 2: Okay.

[01:43:22] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:43:23] Speaker 1: Something about next week.

[01:43:24] Speaker 2: Oh. Okay.

[01:43:25] Speaker 1: Um, so next week's show, I... In the beginning, I talked about, you know, a special guest. I'm going to have Saskia on the show.I'm sure many of you know her or know of her. For those who don't, um, her last name starts with a V. She has a website out there, at least she used to. I'm sure she still does. She does one-on-one sessions. Um, I met with her. I had a great experience. Um, but anyway, yeah, I'm looking forward to, to bringing her on the show with at least Mike and Leah, maybe one other, and, uh, hopefully you guys will enjoy that show.

[01:44:06] Speaker 2: Yes, we're looking forward that, looking forward to that too. Saskia is a very, um, beautiful light being. (laughs)

[01:44:13] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[01:44:14] Speaker 1: Yeah. So, okay, if you guys don't have anything, maybe we'll just wrap it up a little early tonight. Uh, you sure? Y- last, last chance, any parting shots?

[01:44:27] Speaker 3: I think we're good.

[01:44:27] Speaker 2: I think we've said it all for tonight.

[01:44:29] Speaker 3: Looking forward to next week.

[01:44:31] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and, and beyond. Okay, folks, and, uh, I, there's, um, I guarantee you, s- stuff is gonna happen between now and the next show. I'm not gonna get into it with Saskia, but I know that stuff is gonna be happening with Mike and Leah's cases, so if you're interested in, in this stuff, stay tuned because more is coming, and we got some doozies coming up for you guys. So with that, everybody have a great night. Mike and Leah, thank you. It's always a pleasure to have, to be with you, in, whether online or in person, especially. Have a great night, and BVS, please take it away.

[01:45:12] Speaker 3: (rock music starts) Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Ah-ah, ah-ah. Ah-ah, ah-ah-ah. Ah-ah, ah-ah. Ah, ah-ah-ah-ah. Ah-ah, ah-ah. Ah-ah, ah-ah-ah. Ah-ah, ah-ah. Ah, ah-ah-ah-ah. Hey, hey. Whoa.