[00:00] Speaker 1: (instrumental music plays) Financial literacy and the human condition. Welcome to Financial Fitness with The Money Doctor, Dr. Frances Ram.

[00:09] Speaker 2: "I don't start my diet because I'm not sure which diet I want to start." Any diet would help you get to your goal, right? And it's the same with debt. Just start to do something, anything, uh, toward changing the direction that you're going in.

[00:23] Speaker 3: And I wanna ask about the, the having a partner in this process-

[00:27] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:27] Speaker 3: ... a spouse or, or s- a living arrangement, someone that you have, that you share debt with-

[00:32] Speaker 2: That's right.

[00:32] Speaker 3: ... that you have to get on board. And what if they're the procrastinator? How do you overcome that? (instrumental music plays) Welcome to Financial Fitness with The Money Doctor. I'm Denise Fozella, along with Dr. Frances Ram. This show is made possible by Greenfield Community College, increasing access to higher education at a fraction of the cost. And by People's United Bank of Amherst, home of Tea with Trish. And this morning, we're talking with Dr. Frances Ram about something that is, uh, that all of us do at some point, and that is procrastination.

[01:04] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:05] Speaker 3: Good morning.

[01:05] Speaker 2: Good morning. How are you, Denise?

[01:06] Speaker 3: I'm good. How are you?

[01:08] Speaker 2: Good. It sounds, uh, it sounds a little negative, I guess, but, um, I'm looking at it actually in a positive way. And believe it or not, some of the things that we have, uh, some of the reasons that cause us to procrastinate can have a positive effect on us as well as a negative effect.

[01:22] Speaker 3: Okay.

[01:22] Speaker 2: Which was a surprise to me a bit, in recent times.

[01:24] Speaker 3: That is a surprise, but I'm willing to play along with that. (laughs)

[01:28] Speaker 2: Fa- fair enough. (laughs) I like, uh, you know me-

[01:29] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[01:29] Speaker 2: ... I like everything to be positive if it's possible. But I am fascinated by this topic because of all the things that can get in our way about getting out of debt, it seems that procrastination is at the top of the list. And none of us, um ... Nobody comes into my office and, and says, "I know the reason I'm in debt is because I procrastinate." They'll list it as one of many topics, you know, "Well, we had these things that happened to us financially and then there was this problem and then this other stuff happened, and I just kept putting it off." So I wanted to know, and I've been asking for years, "What caused you to put it off?"

[02:05] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[02:06] Speaker 2: Um, and so, you know, people sometimes will tell us that they heard, heard me on the radio or they heard, saw us on TV for years before they came in. And they'll say things like, "Oh, I wish I did this sooner," right? And I'll ask, "Well, why? Why didn't you do it sooner?"

[02:22] Speaker 3: What are some of the answers that you get?

[02:23] Speaker 2: "Well, I was hoping to find one or two things that I could just point and say, 'If I can solve this problem, I can help people not to procrastinate.'" But it turns out that there are, you know, there's just a litany of reasons, uh, that people procrastinate. And so one of the things is, uh, that the goal might seem to be too abstract, right?

[02:42] Speaker 3: That makes sense.

[02:43] Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's just too vague. "I wanna get out of debt."

[02:47] Speaker 3: Yeah. What does that mean?

[02:47] Speaker 2: "I wanna lose weight."

[02:48] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[02:48] Speaker 2: "I wanna be a millionaire," you know. It's, it's just, um ... Well, "I wanna be a millionaire" I guess is a little more specific, but still (laughs) not, not enough, right? So when we say, "I wanna get out of debt," it just seems like, yeah, does- who doesn't, right? But if we can b- be very specific and say, "I wanna pay my credit cards off in two years. I wanna pay my mortgage off in six," um, "I want to have a budget I can live on. I want to do these specific things." And we do help people with that with coaching. But in the beginning, they don't know that. All they know is somebody's offering to help them get out of debt. And so, I think this is in part why people fall prey to some of those programs that all you have to do is, you know, call up and sign a piece of paper and they're gonna take care of everything and get you out of debt. Because it's, it's unthinkable about how you will manage that one piece at a time when it seems like an, an overwhelming goal.

[03:38] Speaker 3: So it's hard to connect with that goal because it's so abstract. And then it might be difficult to even comprehend the amount of debt that we have-

[03:49] Speaker 2: Yeah. Well- (laughs)

[03:50] Speaker 3: ... to, to, to, to face, to face the goal.

[03:52] Speaker 2: Facing the goal is tough sometimes. Um, it's, it's why we ask people to put in their information on the website, and then they will see how much debt they actually have on paper, not just a sense of it. Uh, and not just saying, "Well, this is what I have in credit card debt," right? When they see what they're paying out in mortgages and student loans and car payments and all of that, then they can see it. And once we can see it, with a click of a button they can see what their current timelines are and what our timelines are individually. So they can, we can get very specific. And instead of being abstract, we can say, "Oh, look, there's your credit card paid off in three months. There's your car paid off in 20 months," whatever it happens to be. "There's your mortgage in, you know, six years." And so then it's easier to, uh, move forward with a plan. But initially, just getting people to, uh, go and, and put information in the system. We all know, okay, we've got debt.

[04:43] Speaker 2: Otherwise, we wouldn't be thinking about this. And that form seems really scary, right? There's, there's a thing called form fear.

[04:49] Speaker 3: Mm.

[04:49] Speaker 2: We don't want to put information into a form. Um, so there's about a million reasons why people could procrastinate.

[04:55] Speaker 3: So many fears. Uh, fear really sounds like it's at the root of procrastination. And, uh, avoidance is, is one of those ways that that fear gets manifested. I, I remember, and I'm not gonna say who, I don't wanna throw this person under the bus, but I remember as a child seeing somebody's mail piled up on the table.

[05:14] Speaker 2: Ah.

[05:15] Speaker 3: Bills unopened.

[05:17] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[05:17] Speaker 3: Did not even open them to see what they were. And if the phone rang, it was not answered because it was a bill collector.

[05:24] Speaker 2: Yes. So I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that that person also suffered from some anxiety. And there's something called a feedback loop. Um, when anxiety is present, and it's a task that they really don't want to look at and they procrastinate, the procrastination causes them to feel more anxious and there's this awful feedback loop. And the longer it goes on, the more the, the stronger the aversion is. Um, and, and stacked up bills is a perfect example of that.

[05:51] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[05:51] Speaker 2: You know? Um, now on the other side you could say is there's that lottery idea, right? As long as I don't open the envelope, I'm a wealthy person, right? (laughs)

[06:01] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[06:01] Speaker 2: As long as I don't open the envelope, I don't know what that bill is. And so-Believe it or not, there's also a thing about procrastination that people put it off for a sense of excitement, if you can imagine that.

[06:11] Speaker 3: Mm-mm.

[06:12] Speaker 2: Um, so think of a student who will not cram for a test until the night before-

[06:16] Speaker 3: Oh, right.

[06:17] Speaker 2: ... because they see that process as being tedious or boring or they don't think they're going to do it well. And somehow, waiting until the last minute causes the excitement to grow and very often, can cause a positive result as well as a negative result-

[06:31] Speaker 3: Dep-

[06:31] Speaker 2: ... depending on the person and how they, how they process that.

[06:34] Speaker 3: Brings about an adrenaline rush, in a way.

[06:36] Speaker 2: I, I guess so. Uh, uh, you know, it's not, it's not something I do. I l- personally, I like to get my ducks in a row and have them done, but, you know, we all have these reasons we procrastinate. Um, one of the e- most interesting things I thought was optimism.

[06:50] Speaker 3: Hmm.

[06:51] Speaker 2: Optimism can cause people to procrastinate and-

[06:53] Speaker 3: How so?

[06:54] Speaker 2: Well, you think, uh, "Okay, this is a problem now, but I'm gonna get a raise soon." Or, "My business is going to do better." Or, "After I graduate, I'm gonna make all this money. So I'm optimistic toward the future and that means I don't have to look at getting out of debt now 'cause it's all gonna be okay someday." So I tend to be an optimist, um, I tend to have, you know, lots of i- fresh ideas and I always wanna put off whatever I'm working on now to get to the next fresh idea. So th- the whole underlying issue here is our behavioral patterns, right? How... Our sense of self-control and willpower. And I think most people would say, "Oh, if you procrastinate, you don't have good self-control or you don't have good willpower." But I would say that that might only be true in a certain area. You might have great self-control or great willpower in other areas of your life. Um, maybe you're terrific at, at your job or with your parenting skills or, uh, you know, helping other people.

[07:52] Speaker 2: But when it comes to your own stuff, your own finances, it's just too icky to want to look at (laughs) . And so we put it off.

[08:00] Speaker 3: And I certainly did that as well. You're listening to Financial Fitness with the Money Doctor, Dr. Frances Rayam of Hug Your Student Debt. And I am her co-host, Denise Mazzella, the news director here at WHMP. And it took me at least a few months of hearing your commercials on our radio station before I called you, and then I had to go home and have that conversation with my husband before we called you, uh, that I told him, explained to him w- what I heard in the commercials and what I thought this might be able to do for us. Like, I bring, I brought it up before, that lifeline that, that we were looking for. And, um, so even I procrastinated in calling you.

[08:39] Speaker 2: And, and think about that, because you were really very close to the situation. You knew I, it wa- there was credibility because I was here at your station, right? And even with that, there's still that obstacle, there's still whatever reason it is. An- and I think it's different for everybody. I mean, there's, there's lots and lots of reasons. Um, one of the things tha- that I thought was w- very interesting is that we might see the problem as happening to a future self-

[09:03] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[09:04] Speaker 2: ... and we don't, we don't have a real connection to that. So an example would be, my doctor says I have diabetes, and if I don't change the way I eat now, two to three years from now, I could have a real medical problem. Okay. So I might perceive that, if I'm good at procrastination and denial, I might perceive that as something that doesn't need... It doesn't have a sense of urgency, it doesn't need action right now, it's going to happen to me two, three years in the future, and I almost see that as happening to a future self.

[09:32] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[09:32] Speaker 2: Whereas, if somebody said, "You have a medical problem that requires you to change your diet. This is what you need to eat now, very specifically, and you need to do it now or a week from now, you're not gonna be here to tell us about it," then that might cause me to take action immediately and not procrastinate so much. Unfortunately, with debt, it's less, um... I think it's still life-threatening, but it's less medically life-threatening. And so, even though people know, okay, this is really coming to get you and there's a problem, until people reach what they s- perceive as the bottom, the rock bottom, they don't, they don't move to get out of debt. Now, for some people, rock bottom is just that they just can't send any extra to their debt this month and that disturbs them, and other people have to have, you know, a letter telling them they're c- going to court. Um, but that's what happens w- when people, you know, don't have a connection with our future self about the debt.

[10:25] Speaker 3: So what do you do about that?

[10:27] Speaker 2: W- well-

[10:27] Speaker 3: Other than picking up the phone and calling you or going to your website and filling out the form.

[10:32] Speaker 2: Sure. Well, one thing you can do is, is you can, um, take something like that, that might seem overwhelming, for instance, or seem abstract, and break it into very specific pieces and begin to make a plan. Now, you don't have to make the whole plan, right? That's another thing we procrastinate about, believe it or not, is this, this idea of perfectionism. "Okay, we're gonna get out of debt. Let's sit down and make the plan, and it must be right from the start, and-"

[10:58] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[10:58] Speaker 2: "... let's make sure we read all the books and we do all the stuff." Just take one step, one tiny, little step. Whatever it is for you is okay. If it happens to be calling us, great. If it happens to be just sitting down and saying, "Today, I'm going to track all the expenses I, I spend and I'm gonna start to get a handle on what I'm spending. Tomorrow, I'm going to go and fill out a form online. On Wednesday, I'm gonna call a coach. On Friday, I'm going to call an attorney." Whatever it happens to be, be very specific about it, and make it, make it immediate. Make it so that you're doing it right now, because after you just make the very first step, the rest of the stuff gets easier. It falls into place.

[11:38] Speaker 3: Once you take that first step, I've heard that that can create motivation to keep going, right?

[11:43] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[11:43] Speaker 3: That- it gives you that inspiration, "Oh, I- I've done this, now I can do more."

[11:47] Speaker 2: That's absolutely true. Uh, you know, we're talking about self-control and willpower, and those are the things that can, can get in our way, right? There can be demotivating factors. Um, things like, "I'm just exhausted when I come home at the end of the day and I, I keep telling myself I'm going to fill out the form or get out of debt or do whatever, but I'm, I just don't have it. I'm done. I'm depleted." Right? So-... every time you make decisions like this, you're depleting your mental reserves a bit, and when you're trying to make a lot of decisions, you are exhausting your mind to some extent. And so until you recharge your batteries, you're not going to be able to really get, you know, get out of debt the right way, right? So one thing you can do is figure out when you're best. If you're best in the morning, don't put it off until the end of the night. Take a morning on a weekend or sometime when you can and start working on it right away, but only do little bits at a time.

[12:39] Speaker 3: Great advice from The Money Doctor, Dr. Frances Freiem of Hug Your Student Debt. And we are going to take this quick break. We'll be right back with part two of our conversation about why do we procrastinate so long about getting out of debt. Welcome back to Financial Fitness with The Money Doctor, Dr. Frances Freiem of Hug Your Student Debt. I'm your co-host, Denise Vozella. And we thank the people who make this show possible, People's United Bank of Amherst, home of Tea with Trish, and Greenfield Community College, increasing access to higher education at a fraction of the cost. This morning, we're talking about why we procrastinate so long about getting out of debt, and it's something a lot of us do. It's almost universal, isn't it, Frances?

[13:22] Speaker 2: I, well, I think procrastination in general, (laughs) you know-

[13:24] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[13:25] Speaker 2: ... is just an interesting topic because we all do it.

[13:28] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[13:28] Speaker 2: I, I mean, I do it. Nobody's immune to it, right? And sometimes it has a positive effect and sometimes it has a negative effect. Um, some people, you know, if they're afraid of being judged, which is one of the reasons we might procrastinate, that can drive them toward solving a problem, "I don't want my relatives to see my name in the paper that I couldn't pay my bills one day and I had to file a bankruptcy, so I better get on this and get out of debt." But most of the time, I think (laughs) the fear of being judged or, you know, any of the fears that we have, uh, get in our way. And it's just very difficult to overcome those until there's some catalyst, there's some reason that, um, you suddenly feel, "Okay, today is the day I have to do this," right?

[14:12] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[14:12] Speaker 2: Um, and, you know, I would prefer to have people not feel that way, not be pressed into it, and start to see this as a positive approach to money management. And that would be great.

[14:23] Speaker 3: I think that there is also, in s- in some cases, a fear of deprivation that, "If I take this step, then I'm not going to be able to do the things that I wanna be able to do-"

[14:34] Speaker 2: Right.

[14:34] Speaker 3: "... and I don't want someone else telling me what I can and can't do with my money."

[14:38] Speaker 2: Right.

[14:38] Speaker 3: So there might be that kind of fear of, uh, of control, a lack of control.

[14:43] Speaker 2: So that's why I'm The Money Doctor-

[14:44] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[14:44] Speaker 2: ... and not the money monster.

[14:45] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[14:46] Speaker 2: Okay?

[14:47] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[14:47] Speaker 2: Because, because I had this problem. I was in a lot of debt, a lot of debt, and I had to be able to get out of it, and I didn't wanna sacrifice my lifestyle. So what we did was create a system that could get you out using the same money you're already spending and sometimes less, right? Sometimes I look at people's numbers and I just say, you know, "No wonder you're taking on credit card debt. You simply have been loaded up with too much debt. Your payments are too high." And so we have to adjust that. So I, I think, ironically, people expect that I will... The first thing we will say is, "Okay, don't use your credit cards. Freeze your debt.

[15:25] Speaker 2: Um, you're now on the ramen noodle diet for the rest of your life."

[15:29] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[15:29] Speaker 2: "And by the way, no vacations. You're not gonna buy a car, and this is what you're doing for the next eight years. If you wanna get out of debt, you must live in privation." And the truth is, we know that won't work. That's a foolish way to go at it. In order for someone to have a successful debt plan, they have to be able to live a decent lifestyle. They have to feel better about their money. Um, it's the same as a diet. You cannot lose weight long term on some diet that is unrealistic. Um, and you know there will be a birthday party or the holiday where you're going to wanna eat that food. It has to be allowable. So it isn't that we tell people, "You can just spend willy-nilly and still get out of debt." That would be ridiculous, right?

[16:08] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[16:09] Speaker 2: But they don't have to worry that we're going to, um, cramp their lifestyle because we're really working with w- exactly what they have now.

[16:16] Speaker 3: I think, uh, also there's a lot of anxiety around this whole thought of, of getting out of debt. I mean, what does that even mean? We, we spoke earlier about-

[16:25] Speaker 2: Sure.

[16:25] Speaker 3: ... wrapping your mind around that.

[16:28] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[16:28] Speaker 3: Um, but it, i- it creates a lot of that kind of anxious feeling.

[16:31] Speaker 2: Money in general, I think, I find creates that for people, even if they think they're very good at investing. Uh, there might be a part of the financial picture that they're not happy about, like the debt, or speaking to their partner about it. Um, and that really elevates our emotions. And so whenever, you know, sort of a fight or flight thing, right? Whenever we're faced with something that's very dangerous like that, or we perceive it as being very dangerous, um, it all seems larger. Everything seems magnified. So, um, you were talking earlier about you had a conversation with your, your husband about, you know, getting out of debt. Um, and I know, we're gonna get your full story someday because you've offered it to us.

[17:08] Speaker 3: Yes.

[17:08] Speaker 2: Um, but, you know, just leading up to that, the conversation itself is almost never as scary as we think it will be. Um, when, you know, we're thinking about getting out of debt, it just seems overwhelming. And really, it can be done very methodically. Uh, and the, the odd part is staying in debt is the, what should be really, really overwhelming, but because we're already there and the payments go out every month, uh, you know, we just let it go on. And taking action to get out requires a little courage.

[17:41] Speaker 3: You're reminding me of some of the things that I've gone through with regard to money in my lifetime, and one of my fears has been, in the past, that I can't face it. I don't have it in me to face-

[17:53] Speaker 2: Sure.

[17:53] Speaker 3: ... everything. So it's just too overwhelming.

[17:56] Speaker 2: Yeah. And that can be true not only in a general sense, but in a very specific sense. Like we call it task aversion. Um, the best example I can think of in terms of money is usually building a budget. Most people, when you say the word budget, will just about run screaming, you know, because it conjures up this image of, you know, I use this analogy, trying to cram a size 12 foot into a size 9 shoe, right? And so the task seems so awful, we don't want to do it.... who wants to have that terrible medical exam that you didn't really want to have?

[18:28] Speaker 3: (laughs) Yeah.

[18:29] Speaker 2: But sometimes you're forced into that, medically. But with debt, you're not so much forced into it and it can be really scary. And, and one of the reasons for that, I think, is that the perceived reward is so far out in the future. "Sure, I'd love to get out of debt, but gee, 10 years seems like a long time, or five years seems like a long time." And they, and they don't really ... We don't really see it as, um, "Okay, I want to get out today. I pick up the phone, I make a phone call, and I'm out of debt. Problem solved." Check the box, move on, right?

[18:58] Speaker 3: (laughs) Mm-hmm.

[18:59] Speaker 2: It takes some ... My mother used to say moxie, right? It takes a little moxie. That's a really old word.

[19:05] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[19:05] Speaker 2: Um, to face it, right? But what are your alternatives, really? I mean, you can stay in debt for a long time, and you can continue to try to get out of it, um, trying different things, and maybe you'll be successful and maybe you won't. Um, but even that compounds it, Denise.

[19:23] Speaker 3: What I have found in every single case that I've ever faced something that I was afraid of, the fear was much worse than the reality.

[19:31] Speaker 2: Yes.

[19:32] Speaker 3: And it en- Actually facing the issue, uh, and money has been definitely right up there, um, facing it has eliminated a lot of the anxiety.

[19:42] Speaker 2: Yeah. Facing it and g- and having a solution.

[19:45] Speaker 3: Yes.

[19:45] Speaker 2: So, just facing it is a little bit like-

[19:47] Speaker 3: Step one.

[19:48] Speaker 2: Yeah. It's ... But it's a little bit like hitting your head on that brick wall. You know, most people who have debt have faced it many times. And the reason they might have a fear of failure is because that's the reinforcement they've gotten, "I tried this, it didn't work. I ended up back in debt. I tried that, it didn't work. Here I am again, back in debt." Every time you do that, your resources are, are worn down a little bit more and a little bit more and you become more suspect about whether you will ever be able to accomplish that or not.

[20:15] Speaker 3: Your emotional resources, yeah. Mm-hmm.

[20:18] Speaker 2: Sure. And when you, when you think that you might, uh, you think that you might fail, that fear of failure is enough to procrastinate. "I don't want to look at that." Okay, here's a great example. A student might procrastinate about taking the exam and might fail the exam rather than studying for the exam because they would almost rather that the procrastination, the fear of, of taking the exam, the procrastination was the reason to blame instead of they didn't understand the material. People will, um, perceive all of these things as, you know, a series of huge hurdles. Um, you know, "I'm afraid to face this. I feel really anxious about it." Uh, so, so there's the anxiety part.

[20:58] Speaker 3: It's overwhelming.

[20:58] Speaker 2: There's the task ... Right, it's overwhelming. There's the task aversion. "I really hate to look at money." Um, there's the form fear. "I don't want to fill out a form (laughs) because I'm afraid somebody will have my information. Uh, I might fail, uh, so I'm not sure I want to do that. Um, oh, I'm gonna have to call that person and I'm going to be judged. They're gonna tell me that I didn't make good decisions." Or, you know, so, we try to remove all those obstacles. The thing that makes it work for people is if they can just get over the hurdle and begin to take the steps to get out of debt, be it fill out the form or call us or whatever, then you're gonna get a coach who, who is experienced, who went through what you're going through right now, because I don't hire anybody that won't, that hasn't been a client, right?

[21:38] Speaker 2: So, um, they've been through what you've been through and they understand it, and they'll listen and help you with whatever it is that might be happening for you in procrastination because we're all different.

[21:51] Speaker 3: So, motivation can start to happen. Uh, motivation to stop procrastinating can start to happen when you just take one step.

[22:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. Um, you know, we ... There's no doubt about that, that any one step is progress. It doesn't have to be the whole plan. Um, one of the things that we say in the investment world, and it's true in debt as well, is that people suffer from analysis paralysis. Um, "I want to get out of debt. It seems like such a big, uh, project that that must mean it requires a lot of effort, a lot of research, a lot of planning, a lot of time. And so, I go out there and I wanna make the perfect decision. I wanna make sure I'm not getting ripped off, and I want to make sure that I have the best d- debt plan possible. And so, I read and I read and I read and I send away, and I talk to people and I fill out forms, but I never quite pull the trigger because I'm not sure which one's the right one." And that's like saying, "I don't start my diet because I'm not sure which diet I want to start." Any diet would help you get to your goal, right? And it's the same with debt.

[22:56] Speaker 2: Just start to do something, anything, uh, toward changing the direction that you're going in.

[23:02] Speaker 3: And I wanna ask about the, the ... Having a partner in this process.

[23:06] Speaker 2: Mm.

[23:06] Speaker 3: A spouse or, or a s- a living arrangement. Someone that you have ... that you share debt with-

[23:10] Speaker 2: That's right.

[23:11] Speaker 3: ... that you have to get on board. And what if they're the procrastinator? How do you overcome that?

[23:16] Speaker 2: Well, there's always divorce, you know?

[23:18] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[23:18] Speaker 2: Um ... (laughs) No. So, what can you do? Well, uh, you know, you can do a few things, I think. And I don't profess to have all the answers to this. I just want to help people, um-

[23:27] Speaker 3: And you-

[23:27] Speaker 2: ... thank you.

[23:27] Speaker 3: You have helped a lot of people.

[23:28] Speaker 2: Thank you.

[23:28] Speaker 3: You've seen a lot of cases.

[23:30] Speaker 2: Yes. (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

[23:31] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[23:31] Speaker 2: Thousands of people, for sure. Um, so what can you do? Well, it depends on the spouse and it depends on your relationship. If you have a good, solid relationship and you can have this discussion, make it a pleasant discussion. You know, it's n- It's not drudgery, you know. Make a nice dinner. Uh, it's not a surprise attack. Tell them in the beginning, uh, "I've got a problem. I'm managing the household finances, and, you know, I don't wanna be ... I don't want it to be scary, but, you know, we've had a conversation several times about doing something and we can't quite get there. And in order to get there, I think we have to agree on what direction we're going to take. So, can we talk about it after dinner?" And, uh, you know, and even say, "Look, I'll handle the bulk of this because I'm the one doing it, but I need you on board with me," and see what they'll say.

[24:14] Speaker 2: Usually people are pretty happy to help, um-

[24:16] Speaker 3: Y- Yeah.

[24:17] Speaker 2: ... rather than be in the doghouse. Yeah. Yeah.

[24:19] Speaker 3: So, we are talking about procrastination, um, with regard to getting out of debt with the Money Doctor this morning. And how can people contact you, Dr. Frances Rayim, and what can they expect when they, when they get someone else on the ... either on your website or on the phone?

[24:35] Speaker 2: Sure. They can reach us at 413-774-5555 or 773-3333, or on the web at hugyourstudentdebt.org or powerdowndebt.com. And what they can expect when they get someone on the phone is, uh, that there will be a live person. You won't be stuck in a phone tree. Uh, if we're not available right at the moment because we're in session, we'll, we'll get back to you as quickly as we can. But you'll get a real person to talk to who will be firsthand knowledgeable about what is going on for you and can answer any questions and schedule a consultation for you or a webinar or whatever is appropriate and whatever works with your schedule.

[25:12] Speaker 3: Thank you. Dr. Frances Rayim of Hug Your Student Debt. This has been Financial Fitness with the Money Doctor, made possible by Greenfield Community College, increasing access to higher education at a fraction of the cost, and by People's United Bank of Amherst, home of Tea with Trish. If you missed any portion of this program or want to hear any of the programs in this series, you can hear the podcasts all at whmp.com. I'm Denise Bozella. Thanks so much for joining us this morning. We'll be back again next week.

[25:42] Speaker 3: (instrumental music plays)

[25:54] Speaker 2: Underwritten by Hug Your Money.

[25:58] Speaker 3: Permission granted to chase your dreams. Chase your dreams.

[26:15] Speaker 2: Will you help us spread the word about financial fitness? Please like, subscribe, and choose All. Thank you.