[00:01] Speaker 1: Are you ready for new dimensions and countless possibilities today and for the future? It's an exciting new time and the answers are out there. So join Mary Jane Pop as she explores the unique and unusual for a better life on Pop Talk, in search for the truth. And here she is, Mary Jane Pop.

[00:24] Speaker 2: And welcome to Pop Talk. Have we got a good one for you today. Uh, it- it's one of those things where, ah, you know, you know me well enough. I always like to bring you the most unusual, uh, the most unique, but then also the most practical, that can maybe make a better life for you. And we all want a little bit of that, so let's ri- get to it. It's Pop Talk, and you know we go in search of you know what, right? Truth.

[00:56] Speaker 3: Just what makes that little old ant think he'll move a big rubber plant? Anyone knows an ant can't move a rubber tree plant, but he's got high hopes. He's got high hopes.

[01:12] Speaker 2: Well, that's what we try to have is high hopes, but do you feel like there's chaos all around you? (laughs) You know, it feels like everything feels faster, noisier, and you don't know what's coming around the corner. Want to do more than survive? Maybe thrive? Well, you can, says personal growth expert and hypnotist Angel Millar with his Six Cs Framework of Growth. Now, he's written several books, uh, The Three Stages of Initiatic, uh, Spirituality and The Path of the Warrior, and now comes Transcend the Chaos, with tools to rise above today's pressure and reach your potential. Nice to have you with us, Angel. We need all the help we can get.

[02:00] Speaker 4: (laughs) Well, thank you very much. It's nice to be here talking with you.

[02:03] Speaker 2: Okay. Now, let's talk a little bit about this 'cause I- I wanna try and understand this, okay? Trying to transcend the chaos. (laughs) Unless I can live in a cave-

[02:11] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[02:11] Speaker 2: ... some place and, and not talk to anybody, I'm not sure I can transcend the chaos. So you refer-

[02:18] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[02:18] Speaker 2: ... to inner and outer world. What do you mean?

[02:23] Speaker 4: Um, well, the- the book really talks about, uh, experiencing the world, but also managing one's, uh, uh, emotions and consciousness as well. So, uh, unlike a monk that wants to kind of cut himself off from the world largely, or at least, uh, uh, to a significant extent, you know, I think we have to engage the world, uh, even though it is chaotic and strange and keeps changing and all things like AI keep bubbling up to, uh, throw us off our expected course. But at the same time, when we engage, uh, chaos and engage the world, uh, ironically, we have to have our lives in order and have ourselves in order to be able to manage this chaos. So I try to, uh, look at both. I look at how societies really work, but I also look at things that we can do, both to influence the world and to influence ourselves.

[03:22] Speaker 4: So, for example, uh, the use of language, how the use of language influences us from outside, how we can use it to influence other people, and, uh, how, uh, how our own self-talk affects us either negatively or positively as we move through life.

[03:41] Speaker 2: Okay. But what I don't understand is, you know, everything's unpredictable. Every day is unpredict- every minute is unpredictable.

[03:49] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

[03:49] Speaker 2: And it seems like the target keeps moving.

[03:53] Speaker 4: Well, with AI, certainly, I think that that is the big disruptor that is emerging now, um, so that does make things much more predictable. I mean, some things are predictable to a certain extent, and obviously, uh, banks and investors, uh, spend a lot of time and money on being able to predict things to a certain extent, but, uh, some things are certainly unpredictable and, uh, we have to manage them when they come along unexpectedly.

[04:20] Speaker 2: So how do we... (sighs) We have a negativity. We have positive and we have negative in our body and in our mind. Uh, so how do we push down that negative stuff-

[04:33] Speaker 4: Mm.

[04:34] Speaker 2: ... and empower ourselves with the positive? You know, the... I- I- I had a good friend who was a psychiatrist, and she used to say... she called it monkey talk. Uh, you know-

[04:44] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

[04:44] Speaker 2: ... uh, chatter, chatter, chatter, chatter-

[04:45] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[04:47] Speaker 2: ... chatter. And, and the chatter is usually not positive. It's the negative stuff. So how do we deal with that?

[04:52] Speaker 4: Right. Yeah. Yes, well, there are lots of things we can do, obviously, but I think there's two really important things, uh, to do. Uh, one thing is to have some kind of practice where you can enter a deep state of relaxation. I- I practice self-hypnosis. Um, some people practice meditation. I know a lot of people practice meditation, of course. Uh, personally, I don't find meditation, uh, as most people practice it, very relaxing. You know, focusing on the breath, uh, I personally find that a little frustrating. But, um, you know, if- if we can cultivate some kind of a relaxation practice and go into a very deep state of relaxation, that kinda helps to reset the body, it helps to reset the mind, and it helps us to, uh, cultivate a calm, uh, state of being in general, so that when things come along, we're not on the edge already and pushed over by it.

[05:51] Speaker 4: But, uh, the other thing we can do and should do is, uh, be very mindful of our own language and how we speak to others and how we speak to ourselves.

[06:01] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[06:02] Speaker 4: Uh, you know, are we, are we...... are, are we, uh, worried about something or, or excited about something?

[06:10] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[06:10] Speaker 4: Um, you know, there are a- always different ways of framing it. Of course, with a... Cour- court cases are the perfect example. Of course, you know, uh, the prosecution brings, you know, evidence to a court case, and then the defense argues that it means something totally different to what the prosecution is claiming. Ev- every single thing that we hear has, uh, at least two different possible interpretations. Of course, with politics, we see that all the time.

[06:37] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

[06:38] Speaker 4: One, one side says it's good, the other side says it's terrible. And, uh... But we... You know, we, we should be mindful that we ourselves are doing that all the time, kind of prosecuting ourselves when we could be, you know, um, putting a much more positive spin on things. How many people will say that they, they can't do something that they've never tried and might well be capable of doing it, especially, you know, over a little while of practicing?

[07:05] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[07:06] Speaker 4: So, I think we have to watch our own language and how we speak about ourselves and the kind of words and phrases that we use as well. And I think if we do those two things, we should be well on the way to, um, uh, being able to face many, many stressful situations.

[07:22] Speaker 2: You know, i- i-

[07:23] Speaker 4: Not all of them, but many.

[07:24] Speaker 2: ... it's interesting, Angel, when... Uh, (laughs) as I see some of these commercials on TV with, um, "You know, if you can't sleep and you can't turn the brain off, there's white noise and green noise-"

[07:36] Speaker 4: Right.

[07:36] Speaker 2: "... and brown noise." It's irritating noise. I don't like it. Uh, it... That

[07:41] Speaker 4: Hmm.

[07:41] Speaker 2: ... wouldn't calm me down. That would irritate the heck out of me.

[07:45] Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

[07:47] Speaker 2: You know? So-

[07:48] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[07:48] Speaker 2: ... how, how do we find... I mean, hypnosis is great. I know we can do self-hypnosis.

[07:53] Speaker 4: Hmm.

[07:53] Speaker 2: I tried hypnosis with, you know, people over the years 'cause I've (laughs) been doing this a long time.

[07:58] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

[07:58] Speaker 2: And I'd always say, "You know, uh, uh, I'm willing to try." I can't... U- for some reason, maybe I just didn't have the right person, I don't know, but I can't-

[08:08] Speaker 4: That's, that's, that-

[08:08] Speaker 2: ... be hypnotized. You know, I... And I don't know, I can't do it to myself. I don't know what to do.

[08:13] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

[08:13] Speaker 2: How do I start?

[08:16] Speaker 4: Well, yes, you, you might have had the wrong person. That is true. Uh, so that could be the case. But, um, you know, a, a hypnotist shouldn't be, really... You know, we think of hypnotists as imposing something on the, the person, making them do things against their will, when actually, uh, a hy- hypnotist should act as a, a guide and should be observing you and looking at your body and, and your facial expression and your facial muscles to read what's working and what's not working to help guide you into a state of deep relaxation. But, um, it's... I- I think people over-complicate, uh, relaxation, um, over-complicate meditation. We do a lot of all kinds of exotic meditation, of course. But, uh, personally, uh, it sounds simple and a lot of people would say, "Oh, it can't work because it's too simple.

[09:08] Speaker 4: I'll never try it." But if you try it, you find it works, and that is, you know, let's say, you, you're sitting quietly cross-legged or whatever it may be, or you're lying on a bed even, and, uh, you know, maybe you, maybe you are... Go through your body, just, you know, "My forehead is relaxing. Uh, my cheeks are relaxing, my jaw is relaxing."

[09:30] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[09:30] Speaker 4: Just go through it and say to yourself mentally that these parts of the body are relaxing, and then if you notice, as you go through your body or later on as you're more relaxed, if you notice that there's tension in your face or in your arm or whatever it may be, you just say, "My face is relaxing more and more," or, "My arm is relaxing more and more." And then, "I'm relaxing more and more, I'm just going deeper and deeper into a state of relaxation."

[10:01] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[10:01] Speaker 4: And the more you talk to yourself, and if you tell yourself, you know, "My arm is relaxing more and more," you'll find that it, it will relax, and your body will relax, and you will relax, and you'll actually start to enjoy that feeling of relaxation as well. You know, why do we drink wine? Well, partly because it's, it's social, but also partly because it's relaxing us, and we can, uh, experience that feeling of relaxation just by telling ourselves-

[10:31] Speaker 2: Yeah, but-

[10:32] Speaker 4: ... this curious thing.

[10:33] Speaker 2: ... you know, but, Angel, I can relax my body, but my brain keeps going. You know, it's just... It, it's, "I'm rela- relaxing my arms..." And I've done that, I really have. Um, the arms, the legs, the... You know, and I'm getting nice and relaxed, and then something, "Well, don't forget, you gotta do this, you gotta do that, (laughs) you gotta go here." Um, I can't shut the brain off. Uh, the body-

[10:57] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

[10:57] Speaker 2: ... I can relax. The brain, I can't.

[10:59] Speaker 4: Right. (laughs) Yeah. Well, well, yes, that's true, and I think, you know, that's the thing about people who teach meditation, that, you know, you, you have to have this aim, that, you know, you mustn't think a thought is terrible, and maybe there's even a sort of Western idea of sin associated with it on some level. And I think, uh, hypnosis is different to that. Um, you don't necessarily want to stop the thinking, we just want to align it to what we are doing or what we want, so maybe instead of, you know... You know, oh, okay, let's say you, you're in a deeply relaxed state but you think about the shopping. So, okay, well, you thought about the shopping, no big deal. You can just go back to thinking what you planned to think about, and maybe that, you know, you wanna imagine being on a beach in a beautiful sunset or maybe it's thinking about something you're going to aco- accomplish and how you feel, how you're going to feel when you accomplish that.

[11:57] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[11:58] Speaker 4: And you just return to that state and, okay, you thought some other thoughts. No big deal.

[12:02] Speaker 2: Huh. Okay. Now, let's talk about these six Cs framework.

[12:07] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[12:07] Speaker 2: Work. You've got connection, creativity, craft, culture, character, and consciousness.

[12:13] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[12:13] Speaker 2: How do they all fit together? They seem so diametrically opposed.

[12:19] Speaker 4: I don't... Uh, well, I don't think they are. So if, for example, uh, connection and creativity, let's say... Um, you know, the... Uh, and I should probably say that I studied, uh, art and design many years ago in London, first at Chelsea College of Art and Design, and at Saint Martin's. In Saint Martin's, that's where I studied fashion, and Saint Martin's is really the sort of har- world's Harvard of fashion, where, you know, a lot, a lot of very successful, uh, high-end fashion designers go, and we were hanging out with Alexander McQueen when, when we were there. But, um, you know, if you want to be creative, you have to make different, uh, connections between things that haven't necessarily been connected before. And so, you know, maybe you...

[13:05] Speaker 4: As a fashion designer, maybe you take inspiration from punk rock, but then you also take inspiration from, uh, you know, Renaissance art or something like that, and then you put them together in some way and you make a connection between them and you come up with something original. But, you know, which is... In a way, it's a kinda cheap way of, of making connections to be creative.

[13:26] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[13:26] Speaker 4: But on a, on a deeper level, you know, creators amass a lot of information and ideas, and that's why, you know, creative people, even let's say a musician, will go to art galleries or read certain, you know, novels or, or whatever it may be, and expose him or herself to, uh, different artistic creations and genres. And it's not necessarily just to enjoy them for themselves, but because they... In a way, in, in the unconscious, uh, in states of deep relaxation, they can form themselves together in these sort of novel ways, and then you have this sort of eureka moment, that you've probably seen the, uh, Mad Men, uh, television series, where Don Draper says to his assistant, the, the copywriter, uh, Peggy... Uh, his assistant Peggy just, "Think about it intensely and then forget about it, and the answer will just pop up in your face." And every creator knows that's true.

[14:27] Speaker 4: You focus on something, in a sense, rationally or consciously for a time, and then when you forget about it and you're in a deep state of relaxation, then the solution will come to you, or some original idea will come to you. So, I think these, these things, uh, you know, connect in different ways. Obviously, that would be consciousness as well, and then character would be, you know, are you... Are you prepared to put something original into the world? And I don't just mean as an artist. You could be... As an entrepreneur or a CEO, are you prepared to take some kind of bold stand with this original thinking, uh, that you have been able to cultivate?

[15:04] Speaker 4: Um, you know, uh, uh, Steve Jobs, for example, someone like that-

[15:08] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[15:08] Speaker 4: ... who takes... Not that he was especially a good character, but he had the, he had the character at- at- at least to have the guts to stand up on stage and say what he thought, so... So yeah, actually, I think they all, uh, intertwine, and are for someone who's going to engage the world and, you know, conquer it on some level, um, I think that they are actually integral and essential.

[15:30] Speaker 2: Got it. Yeah, it's kind of interesting because I ha- I had a guest on just recently, and she would... She wrote a book called, uh, Stop Trying and Do!

[15:41] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[15:41] Speaker 2: Just do it.

[15:42] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[15:43] Speaker 2: Uh, 'cause so many times we'll say, "Well, I'll try to do this," or, "I'll try to go here."

[15:46] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.

[15:47] Speaker 2: And she said, "Trying doesn't make it. Just go do it."

[15:49] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[15:50] Speaker 2: What do you think?

[15:52] Speaker 4: Well, y- yes, I know, I know... Uh, I think I know what, what this, uh, person means, but, uh, I mean, we do, we do have to, uh, learn things, and there is a period of, of trying things and trying to make them work. But, yes, it may... It may be that at some point, we, we sort of stay in the student mindship a bit... Uh, mindset a bit too long, and that, that we just have to come in and let go of our insecurities. I can, I can definitely agree with that.

[16:20] Speaker 2: (laughs) Okay.

[16:20] Speaker 4: Uh, uh, maybe what she means, yeah.

[16:22] Speaker 2: So, now, you also say that w- emotional control is a secret weapon to business and life. Why emotional control? If... I, I have to have emotional control. I was a, a singer and an actress, and I have to have that emotion. I can't con-

[16:40] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

[16:41] Speaker 2: It's a control factor, but if I control it, then it doesn't become real.

[16:47] Speaker 4: Well, well, y- well, we have to experience emotions, that's for sure.

[16:52] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[16:53] Speaker 4: But, um, but, you know, we don't want our emotions getting the better of us and tripping us up. So, you know, as a, as an actor or a singer, you know, you want to be able to experience them, but at the same time, not... Yeah, not have them overwhelm you so that you can't, that you can't act or sing. So, you know, if you're acting through, uh, uh, some tragic scene of sorrow, it's probably not good if, you know, if you, if you have to say some lines that you're so sorry for that you, you can't say them. So, I think, you know, we do need... Uh, you know, we need... Well, u- in life, even more, uh, gen- most people's lives, uh, you know, we do need to have some kind of control of our emotions, which is not to say that, you know, we shouldn't experience them, um, but we shouldn't allow them to, uh, control us.

[17:44] Speaker 2: Hmm. Okay, uh, it's kind of interesting. You were born in, in England, of course, correct?

[17:50] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[17:50] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[17:50] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.

[17:51] Speaker 2: And like you were saying, you were at the co- in the College of Art and Design, uh, and yet you say it can roll over into transcending chaos. I... That is such a cha- chaotic world. Art and design-

[18:07] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[18:07] Speaker 2: ... and the people who are there. Talk about emotional? Come on. Uh, so I- I'm not sure I understand how I can roll one into the other (laughs) is what I'm trying to do.

[18:22] Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, everything is a kind of chaos originally.

[18:26] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[18:27] Speaker 4: So, you know, a sculptor might have a lump of clay in front of him and then make a- a something, you know, make a sculpture out of it, or a pot or something out of it.

[18:39] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[18:39] Speaker 4: Uh, you know, and life, life is like that. It is chaotic, but you have to take the chaos and mold it in some way, and I think that's what, you know, creative people do. It's what entrepreneurs do, and maybe even CEOs to a certain extent. You know, you kind of mold the chaos and make something-

[18:59] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[18:59] Speaker 4: ... uh, out of it.

[19:02] Speaker 2: Interesting. Okay. So, (exhales sharply) how do we begin? I mean, do you have to sit down and evaluate yourself to see, "Where I, where I am? Am I an overly emotional person? Uh, do I meditate? Do I use hypnosis?" I, I, where do I begin? I mean, it's nice to talk about all these possibilities-

[19:21] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[19:21] Speaker 2: ... and what I should do, but (laughs) I don't know which one I should go for.

[19:26] Speaker 4: Well, I pro- I suppose I would say you should probably go for all of them. But, um, yeah, I mean, you know, it, uh, obviously it depends where someone is in their life. It might be different for someone who's retired as opposed to someone who's just starting out in their career. But, um, y- y- yeah, you know, it's good to evaluate, evaluate ourselves, of course, and to know whether we are someone who is prone to being maybe too emotional or not emotional enough, or too intellectual or not intellectual enough, or whatever it may be. But, um, I think at the end of the day, you only really know who you are when, um, when you start to engage the world.

[20:08] Speaker 4: Then you find out if you have the gut to, uh, en- you know, to go through-

[20:14] Speaker 2: To do it.

[20:14] Speaker 4: ... some situation or not.

[20:15] Speaker 2: Hm.

[20:16] Speaker 4: The-

[20:17] Speaker 2: Are, are dreams important to you?

[20:21] Speaker 4: Uh, (exhales slowly) well, not obsessively. I mean, I do talk about Salvador Dali, who went through a whole process of self-hypnosis and, and dreaming as a way of cultivating ideas for his painting.

[20:34] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[20:35] Speaker 4: Uh, and obviously, there have been other, other people, other creators and geniuses who have used dreams or have dreamed things that they have then put into the world, uh, such as Karl Lagerfeld, the fashion designer, which just sometimes dreamed elements of his collections, and I think it was in his, maybe 2006, uh, spring collection. There was, he dreamed the entire fashion collection and then just woke up and dreamed it. And the s- same thing with, uh, Paul McCartney, was one of, I forget which song it was now, but one of his songs, he woke up, uh, singing it in his sort of dreams, woke up humming it, and then played it on the piano, and then, and then realized that it wasn't a song he had heard before and he'd actually composed it in, in his dreams, in a certain sense.

[21:21] Speaker 2: Mm.

[21:22] Speaker 4: So, um, so, yeah. So, so y- sometimes m- dreams are important. That is true. But not, not obsessively. And one, one might get sort of clues from them. Uh, it has been theorized that the purpose of dreams is to kind of add noise, and, and you were talking about noise, uh, to make sure that it, one has these sort of new, in a sense, novel ideas, that one doesn't become overly fit-

[21:49] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[21:49] Speaker 4: ... for some kind of specialist subject, or some, some kind of specialist task, and it will introduce new things to us, which is possibly, uh, quite true, that it doesn't give us some kind of noise. And noise, although noise is chaos, of course, you know, again, we can sort of mold this, so we, you know, maybe we dream of something strange or we dream, you know, dream a fashion collection or a song or whatever it is, uh, and, and it kinda somehow leads us further on occasionally, but, you know, again, um, th- this comes back to connection, that you would have to sort of absorb yourself into different fields to get something, uh, original, I think, or different experiences, maybe.

[22:30] Speaker 2: Yeah. So, you mentioned, we kind of almost got into the artificial intelligence, but that, that-

[22:37] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[22:37] Speaker 2: ... whole thing really kinda worries me. (laughs) Uh-

[22:41] Speaker 4: Yes.

[22:41] Speaker 2: ... because, you know, if it can recreate Salvador Dali or Picasso, uh, or-

[22:49] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[22:49] Speaker 2: ... Beethoven or whatever, uh, then whatever-

[22:52] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[22:52] Speaker 2: ... happened to humanity? Uh, it's just, uh, it may not be have the soul of the original, but the sound-

[23:00] Speaker 4: Right, yeah.

[23:01] Speaker 2: ... is sure there. You know what I mean?

[23:02] Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think right now, the, the real danger of AI is not that it is brilliant, it is that it is good enough, and, uh, most people will have settled for good enough, uh, you know, uh, (exhales slowly) you know, let's say, you, you would ordinarily read a book or watch a movie, uh, but you, instead, you ask AI to just tell you a paragraph of what it's about, and then you decide from that whether you want to read or, or watch it or whatever. But, you know, AI has probably missed all kinds of nuances and subtleties that we might, you know, might observe subconsciously or we might pick up on after watching a few times or whatever it is. And so, you know, (exhales slowly) I think this is more the danger, really, that it, it's not brilliant, but it, it's good enough, and that being good enough is gonna keep us away from what actually might be brilliant.

[23:59] Speaker 2: Yeah. I kind of worry, though, to be honest with you, because I, I have had on the show-

[24:04] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[24:04] Speaker 2: ... researchers, people who are actually working on AI, and I always ask them, I said, "Can they ever reach consciousness, sentience?"

[24:13] Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

[24:13] Speaker 2: And there's always a pause, Angel.

[24:16] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

[24:16] Speaker 2: There's a pause. And nor-

[24:18] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[24:18] Speaker 2: ... a lot of them will say, "We don't know." But I've had some-

[24:23] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[24:23] Speaker 2: ... say, "It's already here."And-

[24:25] Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, personally, I don't... I don't think they're conscious and they don't seem to be set up to be, to be conscious. I mean, the reason that, that they seem really good or maybe even quite brilliant at times is that, you know, they, they've been trained on masses of data, you know, billions and billions of websites or billions and billions of pages of text. And so they have a lot to re- re- draw from and to regurgitate or to, to-

[24:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, but-

[24:54] Speaker 4: ... rework in a sense and-

[24:55] Speaker 2: But, Angel, isn't that what we do? We're programmed from-

[24:58] Speaker 4: It i- it is. It is.

[24:58] Speaker 2: ... children with education-

[25:00] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[25:00] Speaker 2: ... the same type of thing. But we can come up with the brilliance maybe from those same types of things that AI does.

[25:08] Speaker 4: Uh, yes, we... No, we can, absolutely. But I don't... And so I don't think that they are conscious, but I don't, I don't think that that is-

[25:15] Speaker 2: I mean, maybe not yet. (laughs)

[25:17] Speaker 4: ... that is the threat.

[25:17] Speaker 2: But, you know-

[25:17] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[25:17] Speaker 2: ... I kinda-

[25:18] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[25:18] Speaker 2: ... think down the line-

[25:19] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[25:19] Speaker 2: ... that maybe they will be.

[25:21] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[25:21] Speaker 2: Uh-

[25:22] Speaker 4: It... They, they, they may be, but I'm not sure that that is actually-

[25:25] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[25:26] Speaker 4: ... the threat, because, you know, even if it's not, even if, uh, AI programs or, um, robots or whatever are not conscious, but, but kind of appear to be conscious because they've had so much, um-

[25:40] Speaker 2: Got it.

[25:40] Speaker 4: ... data to draw on, then, uh, uh, I'm not really sure if it matters if they're conscious or not.

[25:46] Speaker 2: Gotcha. Now, do you have a website?

[25:49] Speaker 4: Yes, I do.

[25:50] Speaker 2: What-

[25:50] Speaker 4: It's Angel Millar with an A-R at the end. Ang- angelmillar.com.

[25:55] Speaker 2: Okay. And the book, Transcend the Chaos, where is it available?

[25:59] Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, in America, it's available in, pretty much in every, uh, large book, uh, book seller, uh, Barnes & Noble, amazon.com, uh, Books-A-Million, uh, independent, uh, book sellers as well. And then it will be available in the rest of the world, I think, in December.

[26:18] Speaker 2: Fantastic.

[26:19] Speaker 4: In a couple months. Yeah.

[26:20] Speaker 2: Well, Angel, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. I hope you'll come back and visit again.

[26:26] Speaker 4: Sure. Of course. Just let me know.

[26:27] Speaker 2: Did a great job and I appreciate it.

[26:30] Speaker 4: Thank you.

[26:30] Speaker 2: Take, take care.

[26:31] Speaker 4: Thank you. Great speaking with you.

[26:32] Speaker 2: You bet. Right back at ya. Boy, we need all the help. I'm... Seriously, we need all the help we can get. There is chaos out there and I don't think it's gonna go away anytime soon. (laughs) So again, the name of the book is Transcend the Chaos, uh, and it's Angel Millar, M-I-L-L-A-R instead of E-R, Millar, uh, angelmillar.com, and, uh, it's one of those things where... And i- it's amazing. Life is amazing. And you know what? We'll try to make it even a little more amazing for you. Do you know what runes are? You're gonna find out.

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[33:08] Speaker 5: (upbeat music)

[33:09] Speaker 2: Stars from yesteryear join us on Pop Star Talk. They come from movies, television, radio, and more. I'm Mary Jane Pop, here. I've had the opportunity to know these stars up close and personal for some five decades, and I want to share their secrets and lives with you on Pop Star Talk, with some surprises too. So, let's share these stories together on Pop Star Talk right here on BBS Radio. (upbeat music)

[33:44] Speaker 6: Time keeps on slippin', slippin', slippin' into the future.

[33:51] Speaker 2: Boy, time does keep on slipping into the future, and we make so many changes as that time goes on. But have you ever heard of runes, R-U-N-E-S? They go very far back in history, and Anu Dudley, historian and ordained pagan minister, uncovers their goddess-centered origins, symbols of compassion, wisdom, and justice rooted in ancient spirituality. Now, she explains it all in her book called The Goddess of the Runes: Divination and Wisdom of the Earth Mother. Now, she is producer of a radio show that has reflections on Earth-based sp- spirituality, uh, and it's called Earthwise. So, we're gonna find out a little bit more about what these runes are and what they can do. Hi, Anu. How are you?

[34:46] Speaker 11: Hi. Thanks for letting me be on your show.

[34:48] Speaker 2: Oh.

[34:48] Speaker 11: Happy to talk about the runes.

[34:50] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Uh, yeah, you should explain to pe- 'cause a lot of people go, "What? What the heck is a rune?" Uh, how... I- i- it's... they're stones, right?

[35:00] Speaker 11: Uh, I'm glad you asked that question, because I have encountered the fact that some people just don't know what runes are. And, um, simply put, the runes are a collection of 24 symbols that are used for divination, and these symbols represent the gifts and challenges and responsibilities that we face in life. Um, and, you know, you say that they're on stones. They're... yes, they're, uh, most often imprinted on disc-like pieces about the size of quarters, um, although they come in many different forms.

[35:32] Speaker 11: A friend of mine gave me a- a set of square pieces-

[35:36] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[35:36] Speaker 11: ... made out of bone, and I myself made a set from slices of deer antlers found in the woods.

[35:42] Speaker 2: Huh.

[35:43] Speaker 11: And another friend made me a set of small wooden spades. Um, and there are even cards with runes images printed on them. So, there's lots of ways to encounter them.

[35:53] Speaker 2: I've got my little bag of runes with me, so-

[35:56] Speaker 11: Uh-huh.

[35:57] Speaker 2: Um, and the ones that I have are, are wood. They're, they're on wood, uh, in, in my special little bag. And, uh, the me- I even have the little booklet that says, you know, the meaning of rune. So, each one has a meaning? All the s- the symbols that are on the runes have a meaning, correct?

[36:15] Speaker 11: Each... Yes, each, uh, rune has its own meaning. Yes.

[36:18] Speaker 2: Okay. So, like, I, I, I just this morning, I thought, "Well, I'm gonna pick a..." Is that how you do? You just kind of pick a rune, or you, you dump it out and then pick a rune? How do you, how do you do it? How do you figure out what to use?

[36:31] Speaker 11: Well, yes. Um, I cast runes in a certain way. I'm sure other people do it differently. Um, uh, when I cast runes for myself, I, I, uh, I don't know. I, um, I like to use the word n- the number nine, because nine is an ancient goddess number.

[36:47] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[36:47] Speaker 11: So, I may select nine runes out of my bag. But some people want to just pick out one rune, or just three, or they want to just reach into the bag and just pull out a handful.... um, you know, there aren't any rules. (laughs) It just depends on what you're called to do.

[37:01] Speaker 2: Okay. Now, uh, the one that I picked out, I, I just put my hand in the bag, and I pi- pulled out one, and I did it, uh, last night or this morning. I can't remember. Um, and it, it says it's the Laguz?

[37:15] Speaker 11: Oh, Laguz? Uh-huh, the Rune of Wisdom.

[37:18] Speaker 2: Oh. What- Okay, what does that mean?

[37:21] Speaker 11: Well, (laughs) Laguz is in the third aid, and it is, um, it, it talks about the ancient wisdom of the goddess, and, uh, and how the wisdom is embodied in water. I mean, we get the word lake, uh, f- that has the same root as Laguz. And it is based on the, the ancient, um, Germanic goddess, uh, Lago or Laga, um, which, uh, we get our word lake from that. And, and so the idea is that these ancient goddesses of wisdom, they dwelled deep in the- in lakes, and they rose out of the water to share their wisdom with those people who, who, you know, asked, asked for it.

[38:10] Speaker 2: Oh.

[38:10] Speaker 11: So, um, so when we cast for, for, and we received the Laguz rune, I mean, it could- It depends on your question, you know. Are you seeking wisdom? Are you asking what wisdom i- you know, is best for you? Um, is wisdom required here or just experience? You know, what- It depends on the question.

[38:30] Speaker 2: Ah, okay. Now, you, uh, uh ... Did it go back to the hero myth Odin? But you say it goes back a lot farther than that.

[38:42] Speaker 11: Yes. Um, I, uh ... A few years ago, I taught a, a c- semester-long course at the University of Maine, um, called The History of the Goddess, and w- you know, we had a chance to look at the, the presence of the goddess in human culture over many millennia, you know. I mean, we, we have, uh, evidence of goddess veneration that goes back 50, 60, 70,000 years ago.

[39:09] Speaker 2: Okay.

[39:09] Speaker 11: And so she has been part of our culture for, for a very long time, and (clears throat) what we, what we do is, um, we, we want to look at what she meant to us, uh, in our, um, you know, our, in our past. But when we find that human culture begins to change, it's around 6,000 years ago when human culture really begins to change, and these ancient matrifocal cultures begin to be overtaken by, um, you know, by invaders, and, uh, war- warriors, and, um, warlike culture. And we, we see, we begin to see incursions of patriarchy, and we can see that when we studied, you know, what happens to the goddess. We also see what happens to the status of women. So we ... So eventually, the story of the runes and, uh, and how they get stolen, basically, by Odin is really another story about what happens to human culture, and the, you know, the demise of the goddess and women, uh, and the rise of, of, uh, you know, patriarchal regime.

[40:19] Speaker 2: Now, you, you-

[40:19] Speaker 11: So, so the story of Odin is just a story of that, and it, it just shows how it happens. I mean, when we look at the ev- early evidence of Odin in, in European culture, you know, around, I don't know-

[40:31] Speaker 2: Who was, who was ... Tell him who od- who was, who was Odin? Was that-

[40:35] Speaker 11: Who is Odin, yes.

[40:36] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[40:36] Speaker 11: Odin, um, was originally a rascally, um, d- you know, dishonest, untrustworthy character that rose out of this, this, um, growing warlike culture, and, uh, and he did all kinds of nasty things to other people. (laughs) Eventually, though, when these warlike, you know, societies needed more of a hero, they cleaned him up a bit, so that he became more of a, of a, you know, a hero that people wanted to-

[41:08] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[41:09] Speaker 11: ... um, wanted to worship basically, and -

[41:10] Speaker 2: Why the heck would they do that? Couldn't they find somebody better than that?

[41:14] Speaker 11: (laughs) Well, that's a really good question, Mary Jane. (laughs)

[41:18] Speaker 2: (laughs) That's what-

[41:19] Speaker 11: But, um, but no, he, he fit the, you know, what was needed at the time.

[41:23] Speaker 2: Ah.

[41:23] Speaker 11: And so the story is that he hung himself on his tree, Yggdrasil, for nine nights, and then on the, the ... And then he saw the runes on the ground and grabbed them up, uh, so that he could, um, well, a- allegedly, you know, (clears throat) serve, uh, humanity.

[41:43] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[41:43] Speaker 11: Um, but what, you know, (laughs) that was also a fabrication, because the tree he hung himself on was actually Mjöllviðir, which is the Mother Tree, and as y- as you and I'm sure your listeners know, you know, cultures around the world have had, have had this famous Tree of Life-

[42:01] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[42:01] Speaker 11: ... this Tree of Knowledge-

[42:02] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[42:02] Speaker 11: ... which was very ancient. And so, um, Odin, you know, he ap- appropriated the, the Tree of Knowledge, and he then appropriated the runes, and that just shows what has been happening to cultures, that they were changing from goddess-focused to god-dominated.

[42:22] Speaker 2: Okay. So you mentioned the word matrifocal culture. Does that mean female culture? So it went from female to male culture?

[42:34] Speaker 11: Well, sort of. I mean, this is very interesting and very, um, complicated, but, you know, oh ... I mean, there are two kinds of people in this world. There are mothers, and there are their children. That's the ancient way of looking at it, you know, because the earth is basically a mother, and people noticed that, you know, new life came out of female bodies, and so, you know, there was a- an- a veneration for this life-producing ability, uh, that females have, and so-... matrifocal societies were basically societies that were, um, governed by mothers, uh, you know, to- for the good of, of all the children in the culture, you know. How is the best way to share wealth so that everybody has what they need? (clears throat) And that's a sort of oversimplification of matrifocal society.

[43:24] Speaker 2: Okay. There are still some Native Americans that have the females who are basically in charge of the tribe, don't they?

[43:30] Speaker 11: Yes. Yes. That's right. And, uh, (clears throat) um, European settlers, when they came to this country were kind of puzzled by that, you know, 'cause that didn't really match with what, uh, culture that they had developed. (laughs)

[43:42] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[43:43] Speaker 11: So they, they kind of ignored it, and, you know, looked at, at men who, who w- were apparently the, you know, the military, um, leaders were chosen by the, the governing, you know, mother body, um. But the Europeans recognized them as the chiefs who ruled.

[44:01] Speaker 2: Hmm. So how far back did we lose control? (laughs) That's... (laughs)

[44:06] Speaker 11: (laughs) Well, you know, it's gradual, and we don't fully understand yet why this change happened. I mean, was it environmental? You know, um, was it environmental change? We, we don't really know, but we start to see evidence of this around, oh, you know, 8000, 6000 BCE. So, you know, it happened a long time ago, but it happened slowly. So be- it- when- as people- as cultures descended into civilization, you know, they began to forget the, the mother goddess roots, and began to venerate, um, other values and other deities.

[44:45] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[44:45] Speaker 11: So it's, it's a long, long time ago, and it was slow.

[44:49] Speaker 2: Got it. So, now, you say it went from god to god or goddess, or from goddess to god.

[44:56] Speaker 11: Mm-hmm.

[44:57] Speaker 2: Yeah?

[44:58] Speaker 11: Mm-hmm.

[44:58] Speaker 2: Okay. So what do you believe in?

[45:01] Speaker 11: (laughs) Um, I would... Well, the practice that we, practices that we, um, observe here at our grove, um, which is an outdoor ceremonial area, and people attend it for, throughout the year for the various Wheel of the Year ceremonies. Um, the ne- next one is tomorrow, uh, at Samhain, which is Halloween.

[45:23] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[45:23] Speaker 11: Um, we, we observe, um, the, um, uh, the reclaiming tradition practices, basically, um, Wiccan r- reclaiming tradition. But I personally, you know, have more of an Earth-based spiritual practice. Um, I, um, I, I mean, I rely on, on the concept of certain goddesses when I, when I need some connection to, to certain support, um. But, you know, I live in the woods, I live, I live in an off-grid community in the woods, and, I mean, spirit is all around, you know, in the land, in the trees, in the wind, and all of the birds and animals. And, you know, I, I connect with that every day. So what do I believe? Well, as Joseph Campbell said, you know, "I don't have faith, I have experience." And so I just, you know, I'm just open to what I'm experiencing energetically, um, from the land around me and then, you know, from the people that I encounter. So I don't know if that answers what I believe, but it's what I experience.

[46:29] Speaker 2: Okay. So do you believe that there is something in the afterlife?

[46:36] Speaker 11: Well, I, I do, because I have experienced, you know, trances and, and out-of-body experiences that, that tell me that I've been in other places in other times. Um, they did tell me.

[46:51] Speaker 2: So reincarnation is what you, uh, is that what you're talking about?

[46:54] Speaker 11: Well, I, I think... I mean, who knows, you know? These are all human constructs. But I like the explanation of reincarnation, that means that we... our spirits survive and move, you know, through time, um, to be in, you know, in other situations, in other places, in other bodies.

[47:14] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[47:14] Speaker 11: Um, I, I like that idea. Now, whether or not that's actually what happens, who knows? (laughs)

[47:20] Speaker 2: Well, you know, I always looked at it too, 'cause I, I've spoken to people who are extremely spiritual, extreme- or some very, very religious, some atheists. I mean, I've talked to them all, believe me. (laughs) I've been doing this a long time.

[47:34] Speaker 11: Mm-hmm.

[47:35] Speaker 2: Um, and I always used this as an example, and see if this fits into what you're talking about. Uh, we're made of energy.

[47:44] Speaker 11: Okay.

[47:45] Speaker 2: Everybody is made of energy.

[47:47] Speaker 11: Mm-hmm.

[47:47] Speaker 2: Um, and if I remember right, scientifically, uh, energy can't... Uh, it, it's created, but it can't at a- it can't die. It's always gonna be around.

[47:59] Speaker 11: Right.

[47:59] Speaker 2: It could change forms, but it doesn't go away.

[48:02] Speaker 11: Yeah.

[48:03] Speaker 2: So I remember as a little girl, Catholic school, my catechism, and the definition of god was always was and always will be. What's the difference between that and energy?

[48:16] Speaker 11: (laughs) Sounds like the same thing.

[48:18] Speaker 2: (laughs) Yeah. Uh, and, and no one could ever explain that, you know, especially when you talk to scientists and that. And I say, "Well..." 'Cause they used to say, "Well, you just have faith, and faith is what you believe in." Well, okay, but scientifically, (laughs) you know, if we're made of energy and we really don't die, uh, we just change forms. And isn't that sort of like a cre- reincarnation too?

[48:45] Speaker 11: That's exactly. Yep.

[48:47] Speaker 2: Huh.

[48:48] Speaker 11: I, I agree with that.

[48:49] Speaker 2: Interesting. So do you, you believe in god- uh, a goddess, goddesses? What?

[48:58] Speaker 11: You know, people ask me that question, and I, I, um, I think that, (clears throat) that the goddesses...Um, we, they take on human... We give them human form so that we can relate to them more comfortably, you know? We, we, we understand... It's easier for us to relate to a, to somebody in a human form than it is to, you know, that breeze that's blowing through the trees, or, you know, the leaves that are, that are falling, um, down to the ground, or that little chipmunk, you know, that's trying to get into my bird feeder. I mean, you know, that human form that we give, uh, thi- spirits basically, is something that we can relate to more.

[49:42] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[49:43] Speaker 11: And so, um, and, and I find that true for myself. I mean, when, when I have the need for support, you know, I, I will, um, you know, uh, I will appeal to, to some goddess that I am aware of that, that, um, that, you know, whose, whose, um, specialty basically, is that. You know? And that's very reassuring to me. Um, but see, that's how I really think of, as Go- as goddesses, you know? I, I experience the Earth Mother, um, and, uh, if I didn't turn... But I don't know.

[50:18] Speaker 11: I think that, that the goddesses -

[50:19] Speaker 2: I, you know, I, I look at it this way, and see if, if you kind of relate to that. Uh, it's a higher power.

[50:28] Speaker 11: Hm.

[50:29] Speaker 2: I don't care what you call it.

[50:31] Speaker 11: Yeah.

[50:31] Speaker 2: It's a higher power.

[50:33] Speaker 11: But let's look at that concept though, because one of the things about Earth-based spirituality is recognizing that, that spirit is, is, i- is in the here and in the now in this time and this place, and also, it is in everything, including us.

[50:51] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[50:52] Speaker 11: So when we talk about a higher power, you know, we, I mean, that's something that's in us right now. And, you know, we can, we can think of it as a higher power, but actually, it's right here, you know, with us, with our feet on the ground. (laughs) You know, I-

[51:06] Speaker 2: Well, it could be... Yeah, and I've spoken to some, some, um, people who have that feeling that we are part of the higher power. We are, uh, a portion of it, a piece of it. And so, yes, I mean, uh, it's been said, God is in all of us.

[51:23] Speaker 11: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree with that. I guess sometimes I, I, I am afraid that people think of the idea of higher power as something which is not accessible to them, and of course, that spirit is accessible to everyone.

[51:37] Speaker 2: Hm. Okay. Yeah. I, I, I mean, it's... Uh, of course, we don't totally understand it. (laughs) I said, to me, you know, we talk about heaven and hell. I said heaven to me would be when I pass over and I go, "I get it." You know? (laughs) I now understand it all. But that may be joining with the higher power or the universe. I, I don't know. We don't... Because our, our fo- poor little feeble brain, uh, cannot conceptualize something like that. We, we just can't. We're not made to do that.

[52:09] Speaker 11: Yeah.

[52:09] Speaker 2: What do you think?

[52:10] Speaker 11: Well, I think that, that the hu-... Although we venerate the human brain, and it's capable of quite a lot, um-

[52:18] Speaker 2: I don't. (laughs) I don't. I don't venerate the human brain.

[52:22] Speaker 11: Well, um, but, but it's not capable of understanding, um, everything or experiencing everything.

[52:27] Speaker 2: No.

[52:28] Speaker 11: Our intellect is, is our intellect, um, and then our spirit is our spirit. And what are we gonna rely on, um, ultimately, to, uh, live our lives?

[52:38] Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, absolutely. And it, it's like the old saying, live the life that you can possibly do the best you can, uh, and, uh, respect others, you know? And, and I'm sure you do too. Now, you're... I gotta ask this. You're a pagan minister. What does that mean?

[52:58] Speaker 11: Um, well, what, what that means is that I have gone through, um, uh, ordination training, and been ordained by a registered church in the state where I live. Uh, so we're a 501c3 church.

[53:15] Speaker 2: Okay.

[53:15] Speaker 11: And we, and we're... And our, our clergy is, is, um, uh, licensed, um, to perform, you know, legal weddings and, and other ministerial duties.

[53:25] Speaker 2: Okay.

[53:26] Speaker 11: So, that's what it means for us.

[53:27] Speaker 2: But, but define pagan for me.

[53:29] Speaker 11: Oh, pagan comes from the Latin word pagano, which means the countryside. It's just like the word heathen comes from the word heath, that countryside that's beyond, you know, civilization, beyond, beyond the pale, beyond the walls of the city. And so pagan originally means of the land, you know? In other words, um, practicing Earth-based spirituality.

[53:58] Speaker 2: Hm. Because-

[53:59] Speaker 11: It's taken on other meanings now-

[54:01] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[54:02] Speaker 11: ... um, which are much more, I don't know, human construct and intellectual, but that's the original meaning of pagan.

[54:08] Speaker 2: Yeah, 'cause when you say pagan to a person, they say, "I don't believe in anything."

[54:13] Speaker 11: Well, (laughs) okay. Well,

[54:16] Speaker 12: (laughs)

[54:16] Speaker 2: I, I'm, I'm not saying I do. I'm saying-

[54:18] Speaker 11: (laughs)

[54:18] Speaker 2: ... if you throw that out to somebody and say, "What does pagan mean to you?" And they'll say, "That means you don't believe in anything-"

[54:25] Speaker 11: Hm.

[54:25] Speaker 2: "... like atheists or something," uh, y- you're clarifying what it really means.

[54:31] Speaker 11: Yes. And I mean, nowadays, you know, Walt Disney and, and company have, have helped to, to sort of change our, our understanding of pagan to mean basically witches, which means Satanists, which means, you know, people who can't be trusted because they're evil. Um, so, I mean, there's a lot of ideas about pagans out there that are just not correct.

[54:55] Speaker 2: Okay. (laughs) So Anu, you're not a witch, right?

[55:00] Speaker 11: Well, I am a witch.

[55:01] Speaker 2: You are a witch? Cool. Are you-

[55:03] Speaker 11: See... Yeah, I mean, see... And then people say, "Oh, no, a witch, that's a person who cast- cast spells on, on people, and, uh, she wears a black robe with a pointed hat-"

[55:12] Speaker 2: Oh. (laughs)

[55:14] Speaker 11: "... and has magic wands." I mean, come on.

[55:15] Speaker 2: Yeah.Yeah. But there are, I mean, people who cast spells, uh, they can be good spells, too.

[55:22] Speaker 11: Sure.

[55:22] Speaker 2: Don't have to be bad.

[55:23] Speaker 11: But I think that, I mean, we have to understand what does that mean to cast a spell. You know, there's, there's just so much misinformation out there-

[55:32] Speaker 2: Oh, oh.

[55:32] Speaker 11: ... about that.

[55:33] Speaker 2: Yeah, or misinterpretation is, (laughs) is what a lot of it is.

[55:37] Speaker 11: Right.

[55:37] Speaker 2: Uh, and, and, and believe me, we're human beings. We're so judgmental. (laughs) So, uh-

[55:44] Speaker 11: Well, it helps us to, to feel in control.

[55:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. You're right. You're right. Okay, so what do you want people to take away from The Goddess of the Runes, your book?

[55:57] Speaker 11: Well, the, the book, my book is entitled The Goddess Casts the Runes.

[56:01] Speaker 2: Oh, okay.

[56:02] Speaker 11: So, uh, what I want people... If, if people are interested in, in the runes, then I want them to, to read my book and understand that, you know, we're n- I mean, we're not talking about, you know, big, tough guys with, with helmets that ha- have horns in them and big, thick, white beards-

[56:20] Speaker 2: Oh. (laughs)

[56:21] Speaker 11: ... you know, that are, that, that are shaking their, you know, their spears at you. I mean, the runes are, are wonderful, um, uh, symbols that represent the, the gifts from the, from the Earth Mother, and the responsibilities, the challenges that are given to us in order to help us grow stronger. And also, the responsibilities that are given to us so that we can, um, help our communities stay strong and supportive of each other. And when we look at the runes that way, I think that they can be very empowering, uh, for us in our lives, and also, in, you know, helping us to face a lot of the scary stuff that's going on in the world today.

[57:04] Speaker 11: (laughs)

[57:04] Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's so interesting. While you were doing that, I just picked out another rune.

[57:08] Speaker 11: Oh.

[57:08] Speaker 2: And you'll never guess which one came up.

[57:11] Speaker 11: Which one?

[57:11] Speaker 2: Uruz.

[57:13] Speaker 11: Uruz, yes. The, uh, the second rune, the, the, uh, the primal mother, the mother cow, uh, and the Rune of Energy. And that's what everybody needs in their life. I mean, we're so, we're so lucky. You know, our hearts are beating. Our lungs are breathing. We can take steps forward. Um, it's so, if we, it's so necessary for us to live our lives.

[57:37] Speaker 2: Hmm. Yeah, 'cause it says, "power, manhood, femaleness," uh, "and a wild bull." A wild bull? Really? I mean... (laughs)

[57:48] Speaker 11: No. I know. You see, the, you see, the, the modern way of interpreting these things is just so masculinized, you know. But-

[57:54] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[57:55] Speaker 11: ... but actually, the, uh, Uruz was actually the, you know, the primal cow, you know? And it was her milk, her sacred milk, which we find venerated all, you know, cultures around the world, but it's her milk which gives us the energy to live our lives.

[58:11] Speaker 2: Amazing. Do you have a website?

[58:14] Speaker 11: You know, people have asked me that, and I should probably get one. So, but let me say that it's in development. (laughs)

[58:20] Speaker 2: Oh, okay. All right.

[58:21] Speaker 11: (laughs)

[58:22] Speaker 2: Uh, the book, uh, The, uh, Goddess Casts the Rules, uh, Runes.

[58:26] Speaker 11: Mm-hmm.

[58:27] Speaker 2: Uh, where is it available?

[58:29] Speaker 11: Um, at this point, since it's just come out, um, we're, we're still, you know, getting it into bookstores. The best way to find it is either to go to the publisher, which is Inner Tradition, or to go to your favorite bookstore and, and get your bookstore to order it for you. Good way to, to support the local economy.

[58:50] Speaker 2: Fantastic. Well, this is fascinating. I'm, I'm always fascinated with all this. I mean, I, I love looking at all sides, a- and then I'll make my decision as to who or what I am (laughs) and what I'm trying to do.

[59:04] Speaker 11: Uh-huh. Yes, you should.

[59:04] Speaker 2: Uh, and we need a lot more of that, to be honest with you, uh, because we're, we're kind of controlled, and told what to believe. And I... Don't tell me what to believe. I'll believe because there's something inside of me that says it's the right thing to do, and that's the way it should be. But in meantime, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us, and come back and visit again.

[59:26] Speaker 11: Thank you. I'll look forward to another invitation.

[59:28] Speaker 2: You betcha. Take care now.

[59:30] Speaker 11: Bye-bye.

[59:30] Speaker 2: That's Anu Dudley, and again, The Goddess Casts the Rules. In the meantime, live simply, laugh often, love deeply, and above all else, dare to dream. (instrumental music)