[00:00] Speaker 1: (instrumental music plays) Welcome to Hollywood and Horsepower, the show about the story behind the story. Today, we are joined by a very special guest, and someone who is an honor for me to speak to. I've known about his family for a long time. They're a legend in this industry, both in Hollywood and in horse racing. So, without any delay, I want to welcome Billy Koch to the show. Billy, it is an honor to have you on.

[00:51] Speaker 2: Oh, you- you are way too kind, my friend. Way too kind.

[00:53] Speaker 1: Oh, no, I gotta tell you. Uh, you don't know-

[00:56] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[00:56] Speaker 1: I mean, so I am a huge old Hollywood fan.

[01:00] Speaker 2: Okay.

[01:00] Speaker 1: So your grandfather and dad, to me, are royalty. (laughs)

[01:05] Speaker 2: Well, they're- they're royalty to me, too, so that's, uh, that's a good, that's a good start.

[01:10] Speaker 1: I can completely see why.

[01:10] Speaker 2: We have- we have a lot in common.

[01:12] Speaker 1: And, you know-

[01:13] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[01:13] Speaker 1: ... I wanted to kind of ... So a little bit about our show, and you have, you have an amazing show yourself, which we'll get to. Um, this is kind of like what people don't know, right? So people-

[01:26] Speaker 2: Right.

[01:26] Speaker 1: ... know, obviously, Howard in cred- Howard Koch, right?

[01:32] Speaker 2: Yes. He always had the W in there.

[01:34] Speaker 1: Yep.

[01:34] Speaker 2: That's my grandfather.

[01:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, Howard W.

[01:36] Speaker 2: Because he, he didn't-

[01:36] Speaker 1: And then-

[01:37] Speaker 2: ... because I guess there was another Howard Koch.

[01:39] Speaker 1: ... I always refer to your dad as Hawk.

[01:41] Speaker 2: Yes, my dad is Hawk. Yes. And they-

[01:43] Speaker 1: Yep.

[01:43] Speaker 2: My grandfather used the W in his name because there was a, uh, the writer of Casablanca was Howard Koch, and he never wanted credit-

[01:52] Speaker 1: Right.

[01:52] Speaker 2: ... because that was a different person.

[01:55] Speaker 1: That's amazing. I, you know what?

[01:57] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:57] Speaker 1: Casablanca is my favorite film of all time, which may or may not-

[02:01] Speaker 2: Wow.

[02:01] Speaker 1: ... be bad with your family. No, it is. It's like there's something about it-

[02:04] Speaker 2: My grandfather used to ... (laughs) Mark, you'll like this. My grandfather had a hat that he would wear sometimes that says, "I didn't write Casablanca."

[02:11] Speaker 1: (laughs) So then ... So I have to tell you a really funny story. Michael Blon, who we obviously both know, is founder of Old Friends ...

[02:21] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[02:21] Speaker 1: So Michael was the entertainment writer for the Boston Globe for like 27 years. I- I know that he's-

[02:27] Speaker 2: Wow.

[02:27] Speaker 1: ... he's met your dad. And he may have even, I don't know how many other people he would have known, but the interesting thing was, he was really good friends with Julie Epstein.

[02:38] Speaker 2: Oh, wow.

[02:38] Speaker 1: And I have the notes, graciously enough, that Michael gave me of the, um, some of the censorship and some of the notes back and forth between Warner Brothers on Casablanca.

[02:51] Speaker 2: Interesting. Wow.

[02:52] Speaker 1: It's-

[02:52] Speaker 2: Look at you. You are a historian.

[02:54] Speaker 1: So, so, yeah.

[02:54] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[02:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, it is-

[02:55] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[02:55] Speaker 1: ... it's kind of, it is funny, so these full circle moments. But, I mean, going back, I mean, for people that don't know him, and, you know, I'm not sure what rock they were living under if they don't. But I mean, you know, your grandfather, he, you know, Howard W. was, you know, a director, a producer, an actor, you know (laughs) , production company.

[03:14] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[03:14] Speaker 1: I mean, it's- it's amazing-

[03:16] Speaker 2: I- I don't think he- I don't think he acted, I don't think he acted a lot, Mark. And- and I don't think he really liked acting, either.

[03:20] Speaker 1: He has a credit. He does. He actually has a credit-

[03:23] Speaker 2: Well-

[03:23] Speaker 1: ... in the, in the, on a movie from 19 ... way back, and it was like-

[03:28] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[03:28] Speaker 1: ... he was a cast feature film. (laughs)

[03:31] Speaker 2: W- w- way before my time. No, way before my time. No, he- he was, I mean, listen, uh, you know, he- he- he worked with his buddy Walter Matthau and did all those movies, Odd Couple and all those. And, you know, as- as, uh, he really loved the Academy and he produced many of the Academy- Academy Award shows back in the day. Um, he- he won the, uh, Jean Hersholt Humanitarian Award back in like, I think it was like 1990 I want to say, or '89. Um, and- and obviously probably best known for producing Airplane!

[04:06] Speaker 2: and Ghost were his two-

[04:07] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[04:08] Speaker 2: ... kind of big, big movies that, uh, you know, I know he was very proud of.

[04:13] Speaker 1: Which is another full cir- I mean, Dean Martin was one of my favorite, favorite guys of all time. And Airplane!, you can't, I can't think of that without thinking of him.

[04:22] Speaker 2: (laughs) Yeah, well, it's- it's funny because, um, actually Larry Coleman, who calls the races and now just is taking over for T- Trevor Denman, who retired yesterday, um ...

[04:35] Speaker 1: I saw that.

[04:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, that- yeah, that's, uh, that's Larry's favorite movie. And, uh, he quotes, I- I get usually an Airplane! quote once a week from, uh, from Larry.

[04:45] Speaker 1: That's hilarious.

[04:45] Speaker 2: And it, you know, it's really, you know, it's funny because in this, in this world of, uh, canceling things, uh, Airplane! seems to have skirted by some- somehow. Uh, you know? Uh, and it's, if you watch it today, it's still, it's still funny.

[05:00] Speaker 1: Absolutely.

[05:01] Speaker 2: Like, it's really funny.

[05:01] Speaker 1: No, it's funny how many-

[05:02] Speaker 2: And it- and it makes fun of everybody.

[05:03] Speaker 1: It shows how well it was done, really. You know, of far-

[05:07] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[05:07] Speaker 1: ... and it's kind of one of those ones that I call an evergreen. It gets bigger and brighter as the years go on. It's kind of fun.

[05:13] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[05:13] Speaker 1: You know, it's- it's- it's like Tommy Boy or Caddyshack or Animal House.

[05:18] Speaker 2: Yep.

[05:18] Speaker 1: They just, they just continue to go on. And it's kind of funny, some of these weren't that strong out of the gate, and they've actually become stronger as time's gone on.

[05:30] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, uh, it's definitely a rewatchable, and, uh, if you haven't seen it lately, I highly suggest ... And by the way, the runtime is like, you know, it's like an hour and 15 minutes. It's not very long (laughs) , which is-

[05:42] Speaker 1: I know. It's a- a little bit different.

[05:43] Speaker 2: ... a super short film, very well done.

[05:45] Speaker 1: But-

[05:46] Speaker 2: And the other thing that to me is fun about that, kind of similar to like the old Love Boat episodes, is watching-

[05:53] Speaker 1: Yep.

[05:53] Speaker 2: ... Airplane! and seeing people that later became more famous.

[05:59] Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah.

[05:59] Speaker 2: So you see these people drift in and out, and it's like, "Oh my God, I didn't know he was in it." (laughs)

[06:04] Speaker 1: (laughs) Yep. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty good. It's really good. Those guys were geniuses. I mean, I think the- the- the- the Abrams brothers and, uh, they were just, they were just, they were ahead of their time. They were geniuses.

[06:16] Speaker 2: ... period.

[06:16] Speaker 1: So, another hilarious story, and you mentioned Massau. So- and I'll bet- so your dad ha- or, I'm sorry. Howard had to be friends with, um, Wal- with, uh, Epstein too.

[06:30] Speaker 2: I don't know.

[06:30] Speaker 1: You know, he kind of ran in that circle. 'Cause Julie and Walter Massau were really good friends and, you know, another-

[06:36] Speaker 2: Okay.

[06:36] Speaker 1: ... funny story is towards the end, you know, when they're, he's in the home and, you know, things, it's sort of it's getting bad. Michael kind of went to see him and he said they're sitting there watching some show that the home is putting on and it's horrible, just a terrible play, you know, and it's just... And he said, into the door busts Walter Massau and he's like, "Julie, Julie, there's, they're- they're racing at, they're racing at Santa Anita." And he grabs his wheelchair and runs him into the other room and turns the TV on so they can watch the races and Michael follows him in and he says... He sits there for a minute and Julie looks at him and he goes, "That was a horrible play." (laughs) And that was the only thing he said, like all day.

[07:20] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[07:20] Speaker 2: (laughs) That's pretty funny.

[07:22] Speaker 1: But I guess that Massau used to go horse racing.

[07:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, he was the... He liked the horses, yeah.

[07:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, he loved it.

[07:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, no.

[07:26] Speaker 1: And that's kind of, you know, where I wanted to lead in. It's like, it's always been interesting to me the intersection between Hollywood and horse racing. You know, it-

[07:36] Speaker 2: Right.

[07:36] Speaker 1: ... you go back and, you know, you look at, you know, countless movies and there's always references to Santa Anita. There's even some on Del Mar and, you know, La Salle, and, you know, I- I love that, and I think it's really cool how there is so much of a- of a weave between Hollywood and horse racing.

[07:59] Speaker 2: Yeah, and my grandfather was kind of influential on that, bringing stars to Hollywood Park all the time. That was his stomping grounds. He was on the board of directors for many years there and- and, um... Yeah, but you go back in time, I mean, Del Mar is Bing Crosby, right? He- he's the one who did it.

[08:14] Speaker 1: Absolutely.

[08:15] Speaker 2: So, I mean, uh, th- the- the parallels are- are right there in front of you and I think, you know, even today, you know, you look at the Kentucky Derby and everybody shows up, whether it's Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, or whoever it is. Like, that's- that's where the stars want to be and that's... You know, they- they call it the Sport of Kings and, uh, there- there's a reason for that because, you know, you look at Queen Elizabeth, right? I mean, she loved it probably more than anything. And so it's- it's one of those sports that it's infectious and I think from people, uh, in the movie business that- that are very competitive an- obviously in a- in a massively competitive field, um, they like it. And I- I think it's as simple as that, uh, you just have to have a thirst for the competition, the love for the animal, um, and just the passion for- for- for the whole game as a whole.

[09:12] Speaker 1: No, it's very true. I was at the Fontainebleau Stakes last week at Gulfstream, um, coming to you from Miami right now and it was, you know, Tom Brady was sitting behind me. You know, I mean-

[09:24] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[09:24] Speaker 1: ... it's- it's um... In fact, he had a horse in the undercard that- that did well. So-

[09:28] Speaker 2: Yep.

[09:29] Speaker 1: ... it- it is true that it still intertwines and, you know, one of the ones that was really critical out there, that is one of my favorite tracks of all time was Hollywood Park.

[09:39] Speaker 2: Yep.

[09:39] Speaker 1: And you talk to anybody, and I only went there a couple of times before it closed, but... 'Cause I- I did work in LA and worked in the studios for a while and it was like Hollywood Park was like, just like a playground for anybody in the industry. It was like you- you couldn't-

[09:54] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[09:54] Speaker 1: ... hardly walk there on a afternoon not- not seeing, you know, directors, producers, actors, you know, executives and, you know, it's kind of funny to me how many meetings were held at Hollywood Park.

[10:09] Speaker 2: (laughs) Yeah, you're probably right about that. Yeah, I know, back in the day, definitely and Hollywood Park is missed. I mean, that's... That was my kind of home track when I was a kid just because my grandfather would pick me up on... And my sister, he'd pick us up on Saturday and Sunday and we'd go out there and we'd get dressed up and we'd go up to the director's room and, um, that was just our weekend. Uh, and- and that was our li- that's all we knew. And, uh, it was just... It wa- it was... It's- it's a shame that- that we lost it and uh, you know, looking at horse racing as a- as, again, as a whole, um, it is... We're not going to gain any tracks. Uh, you know, we just lost Golden Gate. We lost Hollywood Park.

[10:53] Speaker 2: Uh, you know, there is a- there is contraction in our game and it's unfortunate because those tracks, you know, even going back to Bay Meadows, I just lifted three tracks off the top of my head that all were fantastic places and especially from when I was growing up and it's, uh, it's just a shame. It's- it's too bad, but you know, maybe-

[11:13] Speaker 1: It does.

[11:13] Speaker 2: ... maybe it's good for the game. Maybe it's good for the game. I- I- I'm a positive guy, so...

[11:17] Speaker 1: And you know, it's a tough thing, because Hollywood Park is... I have... You'll appreciate this. You're probably one of the few people that would appreciate this. (laughs) Um, I have a Hollywood Park saddle cloth and outrider cloth hanging in my office and a free house race cloth from Hollywood Park.

[11:36] Speaker 2: Wow.

[11:36] Speaker 1: And it was... And it was because-

[11:38] Speaker 2: I- I got- I got you beat.

[11:40] Speaker 1: I'm sure you do, but I love Hollywood Park. It was my favorite place.

[11:43] Speaker 2: I have a... Yeah, I don't know. I have a barn sign from... That's... I think it's Barn 79 front... Like, it's huge. It's actually hanging in our kitchen and then I also have the, um... They... When you're in the box seat area, they had these little hanging signs that said like, you know, section four or whatever it was, box 300, and I have one of those at our house as well. So, um, those were my two keepsakes from Hollywood Park, along with a whole lot of memories. In fact, I just did a... I just did on my last pod, um, we're doing this derby draft which we're having fun with and going back through history and doing categories and stuff and, um...... I took Seattle Slew as my first pick in a, in a, in the Hall of Fame category, and I was at Hollywood Park when he got beat by J.O. Tobin, and I still think it's affecting me.

[12:35] Speaker 1: Oh, wow. That's so funny. So I was, I was actually, um, pretty close to Cruge for quite a few years, 'cause he was a regular fixture at a lot of the events in Kentucky. And you want to talk about a character, he's hilarious.

[12:50] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. They all, yeah, that, that, those were good times, my friend, good times.

[12:55] Speaker 1: I, I really wish that I had been born a few years, decade or two earlier that I could have enjoyed more time at Hollywood Park, because I feel like that was... I mean, I love Santa Anita's, don't get me wrong. Santa Anita to me-

[13:09] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[13:09] Speaker 1: ... and Are, you walk through there and you feel like the walls could talk to you. But-

[13:14] Speaker 2: Absolutely.

[13:14] Speaker 1: ... it's like Hollywood Park was special. It was a different feel. And it's so funny to me, you know, there, and you would know this better than I would, but I'm, I'm more, like, guessing at times, but it looked like there was quite a few movies that were shot there. Just looking at-

[13:31] Speaker 2: Well, I, I know (laughs) I, I know that, um, they did reshoots for Let It Ride there, 'cause my grandfather got brought onto that movie, which I think would make a great remake, by the way. Um, and I, I, I remember because I went to the, to see the sh- the, the filming, and I told my grandfather I was going to, uh, run around the racetrack, 'cause I just wanted to see if I could make it around. And I'll never forget, he's like, "Yeah, go ahead." And I literally got to the clubhouse turn and just turned around and started walking home. I mean, you know, and it's a little tough when you're... I don't even know how old I was, 12, uh, you know, and it's a mile track, which I didn't understand really what a mile was at that time probably.

[14:16] Speaker 1: (laughs) Insane.

[14:16] Speaker 2: And, uh, you're running on, and you're running on quicksand. Yeah. I was like-

[14:20] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[14:20] Speaker 2: ... "This isn't going to work." So I turned around and go- and went back. But yeah, no, it's-

[14:23] Speaker 1: I just like your grandfather's response though. Howard W.'s like, "Yes, go ahead."

[14:27] Speaker 2: (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. He's like, "Go ahead."

[14:29] Speaker 1: "Catch me." (laughs)

[14:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really funny. Yeah. That was, that was... And listen, like you said, I mean, look, it's called Hollywood Park. I mean, it's Hollywood. I mean, it-

[14:38] Speaker 1: Doesn't get any better.

[14:39] Speaker 2: ... the name says it all, so I mean, right. Like, it's a... And they were really the first, like, Friday night racing was awesome. It was so much fun. Uh, it's just a shame. Uh, uh, that's it.

[14:51] Speaker 1: And I've got a few little pieces, like, I've got some Hollywood Gold Cup glasses and little things like that, but it is nothing like you've got, nothing im- like, the memories. I mean, to grow up r- with that is amazing. Now, did your family... When did they get into horse racing? Was it your grandfather?

[15:10] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was my grandfather way back-

[15:12] Speaker 1: Okay.

[15:13] Speaker 2: ... in the day. Um-

[15:13] Speaker 1: Or was it even before him?

[15:16] Speaker 2: No, no.

[15:17] Speaker 1: Like, his dad?

[15:18] Speaker 2: It started with my grandfather.

[15:18] Speaker 1: Okay.

[15:18] Speaker 2: He just, yeah, he just loved it. Well, my, my great-grandfather was, uh, who I'm named after, uh, was a bookie.

[15:27] Speaker 1: Oh, that's great.

[15:29] Speaker 2: So, um, that, that Billy Koch, and not to be, uh, confused with the baseball player for the, uh, A's and the Blue Jays, uh, he, the, he was a bookie, so it was kind of, I guess, it was in our blood, right? Um, and he, uh, my grandfather just loved it. And, and he had horses with, uh, Walter Matthau. I'll never forget, they called it, uh, Billy Charlie Stables, uh, which, and, uh, uh, so Charlie was Walter's son. And we were just fixtures at, at the races and at the track when I was a little kid. And back in the day, you'll like this, the, um, when you'd break your maiden, the jockey would give you their whip. So my grandfather had all these whips at his house. And I used to run around, they had a little swimming pool in the back, and I used to listen to Bill Garr call the races, uh, for, uh, Horse and Jockey, uh, and Dave Richards. And, uh, I would go around the pool just pretending I was a jockey. I wanted to be a jockey, but that didn't last too long, as I am now, like, 6'2", 225.

[16:28] Speaker 2: So, uh-

[16:29] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[16:29] Speaker 2: ... didn't quite work out for me. But, uh-

[16:30] Speaker 1: Yeah. You were shaped cool.

[16:32] Speaker 2: ... th- those were, you know, that was, that was the day. No, we had... You know, my first horse that I ever loved was a horse named Doc Simon, that, you know-

[16:39] Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

[16:39] Speaker 2: ... obviously was named, uh... Yeah. That was probably in, like, 1971, I would say. So I was a little kid. And then our big horse was Telly's Pop, who my grandfather, um, owned with Telly Savalas. And Telly Savalas was obviously Kojak.

[16:56] Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

[16:56] Speaker 2: So there you go-

[16:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, I-

[16:57] Speaker 2: ... another Hollywood connection. Yeah. And he won the Two-Year-Old Western Triple Crown. He was one of the favorites for the Kentucky Derby, got injured. Mel Studie was our trainer. And, uh, Telly would come to the races, and I've told this story numerous times, so anybody listening, forgive me. But, uh, you know, Telly would bring a, a, a bag of lollipops. That was his thing, for those of you listening who don't remember Kojak, he always had a lollipop.

[17:22] Speaker 2: And he-

[17:23] Speaker 1: If you don't remember Kojak-

[17:23] Speaker 2: ... would have me-

[17:24] Speaker 1: ... get a life and look it up. (laughs)

[17:26] Speaker 2: Well, you know, we gotta, we gotta be careful. There's a, people, pe- people don't remember those things. So, no, but he would give me the, the bag with the lollipops and any, like, y- any girl at the track, Telly would be like, "Give that, give a good lollipop to her." So I was the, like, the kid that walked around handing out lollipops for Telly Savalas at all the racetracks in, in California. Um...

[17:48] Speaker 1: I'll tell you my story.

[17:48] Speaker 2: So those were, I mean, yeah, those are my earliest-

[17:51] Speaker 1: Go ahead.

[17:51] Speaker 2: ... memories. I mean, I, I've been at the track-

[17:53] Speaker 1: So cool.

[17:54] Speaker 2: ... I, I, you know, since I was five years old. I mean, I, you know, people always joke that the kids learn to read by reading the racing form. I've heard that, uh, cliché over and over again, but mine was absolutely true. I mean, I, I loved looking at the form and picking horses. And my grandfather, we'd go to the track and my grandfather would give my sister and I, he- he'd give us both 20 bucks. And my sister was really diligent. She'd bet $2, she'd bet the show, she'd make a little money, and at the end of the day, she'd give him back the 20 and she'd keep her winnings. And I would bet my $20 on a daily double in the first two races, and I'd get, and I'd lose and I'd ask him for more money.

[18:33] Speaker 1: So that was the difference between me and my sister.

[18:35] Speaker 2: (laughs) That's so funny. So I-

[18:39] Speaker 1: Yeah. You know what's hilarious is, I did not grow up in it. I actually kind of fell into horse racing through marketing, and was very fortunate to meet the right people at the right time that were very kind and gracious to me, and, and kind of drug me along, like Michael Bowen, Baffert, and you know, Terry Finley, and just countless people that have always been, yourself, people- (laughs)

[19:02] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[19:02] Speaker 1: ... they're just nice to me for no apparent reason, people that I can do nothing for. The funny thing is-

[19:07] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[19:07] Speaker 1: ... my son did grow up around it. So I was taking my kids to the races because they were small. He's now 22. So funny story, when he is about seven years old, we go to a high school football game at, you know, the, their school where it's away from horse racing, and we're with another family, and we're walking in, and the, the wife, a friend of mine's wife says, "Oh, we've got to get a program." (laughs) My son, without missing a beat said, "You don't need a program unless you're going to bet." (laughs)

[19:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

[19:44] Speaker 1: And everybody is like, "Hey, take your kid to the track much?" (laughs) You know?

[19:48] Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that's good.

[19:50] Speaker 1: But it is-

[19:50] Speaker 2: I like it.

[19:51] Speaker 1: ... kind of funny that it's, it's missing, that is something I feel is missing is we're in the first generation where as a, as a country, they didn't go to the track. Like, in, in my family, even growing up in Michigan, there was horse racing at the Detroit Fairgrounds. There was actually pretty-

[20:09] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[20:09] Speaker 1: ... you know, it was a local, in Hazel Park, you know? It was, it was not like Kentucky or New York or California, but it was definitely an attraction. So you grew up going with your parents, and I feel like that's something that you don't see as much today. And I kind of wish that... I encourage it all the time, I tell people one thing that is really cool about this sport, it is very accessible. So you can, for a-

[20:33] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[20:33] Speaker 1: ... very reasonable cost, go to the races, whether it's Santa Anita, Gulfstream, you know, New York, Kentucky, and you're right up close and personal. And it's not odd to look over and, and here's an owner, here's a trainer, and they will talk to you. I mean, that's kind of how I kind of crawled through this, is it's like, I would just start talking to people, and they, they were very gracious and kind, and, and they not only talk to you, but somebody else. And it's, and that's something that I feel is unique because, you know, I, I've worked with almost every professional sport there is. That's not common.

[21:09] Speaker 1: Like, you go to an NFL game, you're not going to probably have a chance to talk to a coach or a player, you know, unless you have certain-

[21:16] Speaker 2: No, that's a good point. Yeah.

[21:18] Speaker 1: ... connections. Yeah.

[21:19] Speaker 2: No, super valid. It's very accessible. Obviously, you know, through partnerships like our own, Little Red Feather, we're able to get, bring a lot of people into the game. And that was my goal when I started out was, I just wanted more people to be able to be involved. And there's an affordability aspect, there's a risk aspect, um, and so I like the whole fractional share approach. Uh, I always knew I wanted to be an owner. I didn't have any money when I was, you know, 20 years old, and I just put together money with my friends, and we just started buying horses, and that, that's how Little Red Feather became. Uh, so it's... But it, there's a, we're in different times, and we have to be realistic. And there's still, even though it's accessible, there's a barrier of entry. Uh, you know, you hand someone that's never been to the racetrack, the racing form, and it basically looks like gibberish, right? There's no, they don't know what anything means. So, there is a little bit of that.

[22:14] Speaker 2: I think we have to make it easier for fans to, and bring them back. Obviously, back in the day, as you well know, if you wanted to bet on a horse, you had to go to the track.

[22:23] Speaker 1: Yep.

[22:23] Speaker 2: Um, nowadays with, uh, FanDuel and, and all the other, uh, ways to bet, you don't even have to, you watch it in the comfort of your living room, and you can bet your horses and have a beautiful day at home, and you don't have to go anymore. So it's taken away from the brick and mortar business-

[22:40] Speaker 1: That's another part, right? You know, 'cause it's like-

[22:41] Speaker 2: Absolutely.

[22:42] Speaker 1: ... some ways good for the-

[22:42] Speaker 2: Absolutely. It's like-

[22:43] Speaker 1: ... for the handle. But in the other ways-

[22:45] Speaker 2: Yep.

[22:45] Speaker 1: ... it's like, you know, I feel like it's taken away from that in-person experience-

[22:51] Speaker 2: The experience.

[22:51] Speaker 1: ... on track, you know?

[22:52] Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[22:53] Speaker 1: And I do, I am concerned because the other thing it does-

[22:55] Speaker 2: I absolutely, and I love, I love going to the track.

[22:57] Speaker 1: I love it too.

[22:58] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[22:58] Speaker 1: It's the best. I'm, I'm there almost every weekend somewhere, and I'll be at Gulfstream tomorrow, I'll be at Gulfstream on Sunday. And I don't play a lot, I'm more, you know, it's more social and talking to people. But it's, I, yeah. It's, I tell people all the time, "If you are looking for something to do with your family, with your date, there isn't a better form of entertainment available today." Now, the double edge that I see that our industry is facing is, these electronic platforms that are opening up, making it easier, are also offering other things to wager on that distract people away from the sport.

[23:39] Speaker 1: So even NASCAR-

[23:43] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if I... I don't... I, I think we got bigger problems than that. So I... But I think-

[23:48] Speaker 1: (laughs) I can't see your face.

[23:49] Speaker 2: You know what?

[23:50] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[23:50] Speaker 2: I, I think the one thing, I think the one thing that I'm really kind of proud for, proud of is the way that our sport has, uh, come together for the safety of the animal. Um, I think-

[24:04] Speaker 1: Definitely.

[24:04] Speaker 2: ... if you look at the, you know, that, that bullshit New York Times article that came out last week was just a complete joke.

[24:11] Speaker 1: Yes.

[24:11] Speaker 2: And I think the, the group Light Up Racing, uh, had a great rebuttal, actually tweeted their rebuttal to it, uh, if you want to take a look at it. And it's, you know, I, I'm, I'm so done with all the negativity. Like, these horses are... There's a breeding operation, and mostly, you know, in Lexington, Kentucky, although we all have regional breeding programs, but you know, if you saw...... how these horses are treated and, and how they're taken care of, and just the, the care and the love for these animals. And they're, they're bred to do a job. This is their job.

[24:46] Speaker 2: So it's, it's frustrating-

[24:48] Speaker 1: Well, and they... And here's the thing. The thing I tell people all the time, they love their job.

[24:52] Speaker 2: Right.

[24:52] Speaker 1: So I'm very involved with Old Friends. Old Friends has been-

[24:55] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[24:55] Speaker 1: ... instrumental in, in caring for these retired athletes.

[24:59] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[24:59] Speaker 1: But here's the interesting thing. Michael is really big about, "Hey, let's let the horse be a horse." But what's the most interesting-

[25:07] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[25:08] Speaker 1: ... is you put Game On Dude and Little Mike in a paddock, they still have a race at least twice a day, up and down the hill.

[25:15] Speaker 2: I think, yeah. No, no.

[25:16] Speaker 1: They... This is what they-

[25:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

[25:17] Speaker 1: ... live for, and it's kind of funny. You see a couple of them starting to run, and pretty soon, the whole side of the hill is running. And it's just bre-

[25:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, they're, they're kind of bred to do. It's like-

[25:27] Speaker 1: Like you said, they're bred to do the job, but they enjoy their job.

[25:31] Speaker 2: Absolutely. And, and they're just so well taken care of, and I wish people were more educated. I wish our messaging was better at the horse racing-

[25:36] Speaker 1: They live better than people that are criticizing them, to be honest. And I tell people this the whole... a lot, because I'm very close to the farm level. I'm at... I'm on farms all the time, in Wellington, Ocala, Kentucky, New York, California. And I tell people all the time, the first thing you notice when you go to one of these farms, you don't even smell a horse. These barns are so immaculate, so clean, these c- they are so well cared for, it's the first horse barn you'll ever walk in that you don't smell horse manure. I mean, it... They... These things are... You go to Claiborne's stallion barn, it's cleaner than most restaurants. And I mean, I don't think people realize how they're cared for. Um, the other, the other thing I would say to people that, that look at this, and you understand this better than most, there's, there's an old saying in, in entertainment, welcome to Hollywood, and it refers to just this, like this negative press.

[26:38] Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many people I've talked to that have been part of a show or part of a, a production or a movie or whatever, they have somebody that comes for an interview, they think everything's good, the article comes out, and they pan them. And then they run into the guy six months or a year later, and he's like, "Oh, I really liked your work." And it's like, "Hold on. Hold on. You, you blasted us." And he's like, "Yeah, yeah. No, I did, but then somebody told me to take a look at it again, and you know, it's pretty good." (laughs) And it's like, "Really?" And that's what I tell people. You, you can't put everything on an article. It's one guy's opinion.

[27:19] Speaker 1: So take some time-

[27:21] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[27:21] Speaker 1: ... look around, listen. Because anybody who's in the spotlight for any moment of time has got blasted at one point or another. And-

[27:31] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[27:31] Speaker 1: ... you know, I just don't buy into it. You know, it's negative press.

[27:35] Speaker 2: I, I'm a negative press.

[27:35] Speaker 1: I would love to know-

[27:36] Speaker 2: Well, I'm... All I'm saying, all I'm saying is, is I don't think we, as a... as an organization, and I say we as just the horse racing community, has really done... had done a great job of counteracting against some of these media terrorists.

[27:54] Speaker 1: Could not agree more.

[27:55] Speaker 2: Um, I, I... And I think that now, we are starting, with groups like LetUp Racing, we're starting to have the, uh, the fuel and we have the numbers and the statistics to back up our claims that horse racing is safer than it has ever been. Do... You know?

[28:13] Speaker 1: No question.

[28:14] Speaker 2: Uh, it, it just is. Like, period. That's it. And, and you can't argue it because the numbers say so. So now, does that mean that it wasn't safe at one time? Yeah, that probably. There's some... Look, there's bad apples in every sport, right?

[28:27] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, but let's-

[28:27] Speaker 2: And there's bad... There are some bad trainers.

[28:28] Speaker 1: ... look at any sport. Football was not very safe at one time. Automotive racing was not very safe at one time. W- you know, I mean, every sport has gone through evolution on safety and improved itself, and horse racing's no different. The one thing, and I would agree with you 1,000%, horse racing could do a better job of promoting itself positively. We have so many good things, and I wo- and I do, don't get me wrong, I feel like there's a lot of that that's being done. I think there's... You know, like my race horse, I think like what you're doing with, uh, you know, Little Red Feather, I think, you know, with like some of the tours, I think the tours are really huge, like, you know, what Old Friends does, and what the Horse Park does, and what M- Horse Country does, because it lets... You know, Old Friends gets 70,000 visitors a year through the farm. The vast majority of them are from outside horse racing.

[29:26] Speaker 1: That can only be good, because they see firsthand-

[29:31] Speaker 2: Absolutely.

[29:31] Speaker 1: ... "Gosh, these, these guys are in great shape. They, they're happier. They're running around."

[29:37] Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if you know this, but I'm the president of CARMA, which is our-

[29:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, MANA.

[29:41] Speaker 2: ... uh, aftercare association here in Georgia and California.

[29:43] Speaker 1: Yeah, I had Aaron, Harris-

[29:44] Speaker 2: And you know who MANA is.

[29:44] Speaker 1: ... on the show a couple weeks ago.

[29:46] Speaker 2: Right, right. So I mean, it is my passion. I, I'm, I'm very, very much an advocate of all aftercare, and, and there's some great groups out there that are making sure that these horses, after their careers, have a place to go, so. And have a place to have a second care.

[30:02] Speaker 1: But I think that, like what you're doing-

[30:03] Speaker 2: Get them what they want.

[30:04] Speaker 1: ... and what Old Friends is doing, that's a real... We just need to promote it more. Let more people know about it, because there are a lot of positives. But I agree with you, I don't think we sound our own horn enough, if you will.

[30:17] Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, yeah, I agree. But it's, it's also... I mean, y- for years, you know, horse racing's been pretty fractured, right? It's state-run, it's... Every state has their own rules, um, and, and I think that was part of the problem. You couldn't get behind a national entity. We tried it with-... you know, NTRA back in the day with the Go Baby Go campaign. Um, but now I think people are starting to wake up and I think people are starting to get on board with, um, kind of one voice.

[30:48] Speaker 2: So that's what I would say-

[30:49] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[30:49] Speaker 2: ... is that, uh, we, we know we need to do a better job and I think people are working on it, and people who are much smarter than I am.

[30:55] Speaker 1: But in all fairness, I think we, to your point, I think we are doing a better job.

[31:00] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[31:00] Speaker 1: It's better today-

[31:00] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[31:01] Speaker 1: ... than it was a year ago. It'll be better next year than it is today. So I feel like i- i- you know, it's going in the right direction. And I, you know, I feel like it's kind of unfair for people to compare, 'cause you hear about this a lot, where people talk about something that happened in the past and it's like, you know, you could do that with any sport. I mean, we lost Dale Earnhardt Sr. due to a safety issue that's been corrected.

[31:26] Speaker 2: Right.

[31:26] Speaker 1: You know what I mean? This is not just horse racing. So you learn-

[31:31] Speaker 2: No, I think-

[31:31] Speaker 1: ... as you go, you evolve as you go, and you try and improve and I, and I do believe that horse racing is doing that. And I truly believe, and I tell people this all the time, the vast majority, I mean, 99.9% of horsemen, owners, and trainers, truly do want what's best for the horse. I, I think that the image of, you know, people doing things, you know, under- underhanded just to win races is, is not accurate. I mean, I'm not going to say it never happens, I'm not that naive, but I think the vast majority are trying. It's just, to your point, part of the challenges are, there's different rules in different states. So some of these violations you hear about are, are something that's legal in one state and not in another.

[32:19] Speaker 1: And it, i- i- you know-

[32:20] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[32:20] Speaker 1: ... there's So some of the... Sometimes I feel like these things get blown out of proportion, and it, and it isn't, you know, it's not like they were giving the horse some horrible thing. It was something that's perfectly legal to be used in training and it didn't get out of his system quick enough

[32:38] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[32:38] Speaker 1: But I feel like that's not a diabolical plan, you know? (laughs)

[32:43] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[32:43] Speaker 1: I think it's sometimes...

[32:46] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[32:46] Speaker 1: ... just maybe...

[32:46] Speaker 2: No, I, I agree.

[32:47] Speaker 1: You know what I mean? So I think-

[32:48] Speaker 2: I agree.

[32:49] Speaker 1: ... the positives are good and, you know, it's, it's been... You know, we continue to grow. So, you know, your, your grandfather Howard W. gets into it. Does Hawk then continues it, right? Does he st-... He's been involved-

[33:03] Speaker 2: No, it s- it, it skips a generation.

[33:05] Speaker 1: He skipped it. (laughs) He focused on Hollywood. (laughs)

[33:09] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. He was, he was busy making movies. So, uh, yeah, he... I mean, listen, he loves it and he loves watching our races and, you know, he's, uh, very, very-

[33:20] Speaker 1: He's a re-

[33:20] Speaker 2: ... supportive of... What's that?

[33:23] Speaker 1: And he's a regular at the track, right? He's still pretty in- m- ............................

[33:28] Speaker 2: My dad? No. My dad, my dad doesn't go-

[33:29] Speaker 1: Okay.

[33:29] Speaker 2: ... to the track a lot.

[33:30] Speaker 1: Never?

[33:30] Speaker 2: No.

[33:30] Speaker 1: Okay.

[33:31] Speaker 2: No. No. He, he'll, he'll go out once in a blue moon. He'll come down to Del Mar once a summer and, and hang out for a day. He likes it down there. But, uh, no, it's kind of not his thing. Like I said, it skipped a generation so I'm looking forward to my grandkids.

[33:46] Speaker 1: That's hilarious. (laughs) How do you... Now, so now, with your k... Do you have kids? Obviously.

[33:53] Speaker 2: I have three kids.

[33:54] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[33:55] Speaker 2: I have, uh, two twin boys that are 28, and, uh, I have another one who's 24, another boy that, uh... You probably d-... Do you watch a lot of TV? You watch Netflix and shows and stuff?

[34:05] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

[34:07] Speaker 2: Yeah. So my son, my son was, uh... Played Erik Menendez in M- The Monsters, uh, show that was just on Netflix.

[34:15] Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

[34:17] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Cooper Koch.

[34:18] Speaker 1: He's a beautiful man.

[34:19] Speaker 2: That's my son.

[34:20] Speaker 1: Okay. And-

[34:21] Speaker 2: And my other son P- my son Peyton is an editor and he was nominated for an Emmy for editing Only Murders in the Building, that show with, uh-

[34:29] Speaker 1: Great. Really?

[34:29] Speaker 2: ... Steve Martin and Martin Short. Yep. And now he's on a new show called Avatar: The Last Airbender, which is also on Netflix.

[34:37] Speaker 1: I saw that.

[34:37] Speaker 2: So... And my little one is a... Yeah, my little one is a, is a budding pop star. So he's a, he's a singer-songwriter.

[34:44] Speaker 1: Is it? Okay.

[34:44] Speaker 2: So a lot of entertainment in the family. They, they're, they, they, they do like going to the track, uh, they... But they are not psychopaths like me.

[34:53] Speaker 1: So they're... Do you don't see them... Do you see them more like your grandfather, maybe Hollywood first, horse ownership second?

[35:00] Speaker 2: (laughs) Uh, I, I try to steer them away from horse ownership. I know how difficult it is.

[35:07] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[35:08] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[35:08] Speaker 1: So may- maybe, maybe it's a generational thing. Maybe like you said, the grandkids ..........................

[35:13] Speaker 2: It is. Yeah.

[35:13] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[35:13] Speaker 2: Yeah. My nephew, my brother's son, loves horse racing, loves gambling. He's... I think he's, I think he's eight and he ha-... I think he has his own TVG account. Don't, don't let, don't let, uh, or FanDuel account, but don't, don't tell them.

[35:26] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[35:27] Speaker 2: Don't tell them he was eight, but he, he-

[35:27] Speaker 1: Yeah. He was born in 1956 according to FanDuel. (laughs)

[35:31] Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly.

[35:34] Speaker 1: (laughs) That's so great. So, you know, it comes up to, you know, that.

[35:39] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[35:39] Speaker 1: So how did Howard W. ever get into it? What got him hooked? What got him started? Do you know the story?

[35:49] Speaker 2: God, I don't, I don't know. I mean, he had... I, I remember the horses that he started with. One was, uh... God, it was way back in the day. He had a horse named, horse named Sweet Ott. He had a horse named, uh, like I said, Doc Simon was one of his first horses. Um, I think it was just friends who just got him into the game and he just-

[36:11] Speaker 1: That's what I wonder-

[36:11] Speaker 2: ... fell in love with it, you know?

[36:12] Speaker 1: ... if somebody ............................

[36:13] Speaker 2: Yeah. I think his-

[36:14] Speaker 1: ...... his friends, yeah.

[36:14] Speaker 2: I think he started with possibly Warren's studie and then was with Mel's studie. It was so long ago. I apologize, Mark, for not-

[36:21] Speaker 1: No.

[36:21] Speaker 2: ... knowing the-

[36:22] Speaker 1: Hearing it.

[36:22] Speaker 2: ... true story off the top of my head. I should have my sister come on. She probably knows. Um, but I think he just fell in love with the sport and I think he just got involved and then he started bringing other people involved. He partnered with Aaron Spelling when Aaron Spelling was really hot, doing all those television shows and they had a bunch of good horses. Um, and there's a famous story that my grandfather was in a meeting and they had a race...... and he actually took a helicopter to Hollywood Park, landed in the infield, watched the race, and then left after the race. Um, there was a, a gu- uh, Tom Kanous tells the story. Tom Kanous is an agent, he represents Antonio Fresu right now, and has had, you know, back in the day at every jockey.

[37:05] Speaker 2: And I guess my grandfather was in a really important meeting at Paramount, but he told his secretary, Laurie Abdo, who was, uh, an amazing person, um, he said, "Look," you know, uh, uh, y- "I'm unavailable for the next hour, but if Tom Kanous calls, put th- put him through." 'Cause they were drawing entries-

[37:22] Speaker 1: (laughs) .

[37:22] Speaker 2: ... and my grandfather wanted to know what, i- if the horse got in, and what race it's going to be, so, I mean, he was just really passionate. He just loved the game. And, and, um, I got obviously pass it down to me. So I mean, I was by his side. My grandpa used to pick me up, (clears throat) excuse me, after school, and we would go out to Hollywood Park and we'd stand on the backstretch, right near the starting gate, and he knew all the jockeys and they'd all wave, and I mean, that's like, that was my upbringing, was going to the track on, you know, Thursday afternoons.

[37:54] Speaker 2: So-

[37:55] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[37:55] Speaker 2: ... it, it, like I said, I use the word infectious, and it really is. It's, once you kind of, once it gets you hooked, you're, you're just in and you're in for a long time. Um...

[38:04] Speaker 1: I completely agree.

[38:05] Speaker 2: So-

[38:05] Speaker 1: And that, I mean, that's amazing to me.

[38:07] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[38:07] Speaker 1: I mean, like Hollywood Park has always been a favorite. Like I said, it was, I was fortunate, I mean, this is way before Amon was around the industry. I was working with, um, for a supplier to the studios, mostly around Burbank, and I would go just to go. And it was funny because it was ju- it is, it's infectious and, you know, certain names catch your, catch your eye and, you know, it's like, it is, it's just ... But that, you know, the, the history of it is so amazing to me. And, you know, there's, to me, there's no richer history than California racing. So Hollywood Park, Santa Anita, Del Mar, it's just every time I'm out there, it's, it's amazing. It's kind of like walking the back lot at Warner Brothers. You know, it's like there's so much history, it just blows your mind.

[38:56] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you look at the glory days, I mean, you see pictures of Santa Anita with the grandstands just full. I mean, I remember going to the, you know, going to the track and there'd be 40,000, 50,000 people there on a Saturday. You know, obviously we don't get those kind of crowds anymore, uh, but we do on big days, and that's where the kind of sport, you know, is heading. Obviously, you see what's happening at Churchill Downs with their, the financial investment they're making. You look at Belmont Park with the multimillion dollar project that they're doing. Um, you look at the crowds at Saratoga and Del Mar, you know, it's, there's ... Look, I, I have a house in Lexington and I, I go to Keeneland a lot, and if you go to Keeneland on a Saturday in April, the last thing on your mind is that horse racing is dead, because it is not.

[39:42] Speaker 2: Um-

[39:43] Speaker 1: It's- (laughs)

[39:43] Speaker 2: It is massive, it is ... The crowds are incredible. And there are young people there. So, you know, I'm, I-

[39:48] Speaker 1: And Kentucky's unique, right? Be- 'cause I lived in Kentucky for about six years and, and it was a real ... I loved it. In fact, I'll probably at some point have a place there again. And there, I'm there a lot and I have a lot of friends there, but Keeneland is almost part of the fabric of the city. You know, it's, even if a kid didn't grow up in horse racing, spring and fall, that's the place to be. And people dress to go to the races, you go to Malone's or Tony's after the races. It's just part of the society. And I, I wish more people could experience that, because like you said, you are not going to think horse racing's dead if you're in Kentucky on a Saturday.

[40:33] Speaker 1: And it really is-

[40:36] Speaker 2: No.

[40:36] Speaker 1: ... Keeneland, because I, I would dare say ... Now Churchill will get more people just because of the size, but I don't think there's a more loyal crowd than Keeneland in the, in Kentucky.

[40:49] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. In Kentucky, I mean, Keeneland's just incredible. And I know, and then as I've grown in this industry, I mean, I know a lot of people there, like Shannon Arvin who runs it is an incredible woman. Uh, Gatewood Bell is a good friend of mine. He is, he's now the, uh, head of racing. Um, you know, all the people there are, are great. They love racing and they love their customers. And, and I think that's really, you know, it's really important because when you talk about horse racing, a lot of times the customer gets a little bit overlooked. And I'm not just talking about the patrons that are going there day to day, but I'm talking about the, the gamblers, um, the handicappers.

[41:25] Speaker 1: Yep.

[41:25] Speaker 2: I mean, that's how, you know, people don't even understand that that's how purses are, are, you know, uh, derived. Uh, you know, people have to bet on this sport so that the purses can be paid out. Now, with the ancillary revenue that is, um, from these slots or horse rac- historical horse racing and, and, uh, casinos, yeah, that's all great, but you're seeing what's happening in Florida right now with the decoupling issue, and that's very dangerous.

[41:51] Speaker 2: It's-

[41:51] Speaker 1: It is very dangerous.

[41:52] Speaker 2: ... it's very dangerous precedent, um-

[41:54] Speaker 1: Really hope that-

[41:54] Speaker 2: ... for our, for our game.

[41:57] Speaker 1: I don't know what the over under is on that, but I really hope it doesn't happen. I hope there's a way to control it-

[42:03] Speaker 2: Coughs ] We're working on it.

[42:04] Speaker 1: I sat with Eric-

[42:05] Speaker 2: We're working on it.

[42:05] Speaker 1: ... Leback last weekend, and I know there's a lot of people way smarter than me that are trying to come up with solutions, and they seem pretty positive that there will be one, but you're, to your point, it's, I don't think that's healthy. I think we need to stay-

[42:21] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[42:21] Speaker 1: ... intact, work together, you know, for the good of both sides. You know, the, the track and the, the handle, you know, it's like, you know, that's, it's important. It's good for the horseman, it's good for the breeding, it's good for everything.

[42:36] Speaker 2: You, you, you hit the nail on the head, my friend. Yes. Uh, I-

[42:39] Speaker 1: So-

[42:39] Speaker 2: I have no comeback other than yes. (laughs)

[42:42] Speaker 1: We kind of come up to, you know, y- your career and you, as you said, you know, you started out with your friends. When did you start, you know, Little Red Feather?

[42:54] Speaker 2: Well, I started, uh-

[42:55] Speaker 1: Or, or was there something before that?

[42:58] Speaker 2: No. I, when I graduated, uh, I graduated Northwestern in 1991. I knew I wanted to be an owner. I had no money. Uh, I went to a couple buddies. We put together a little group. We have a... there was a Cuban restaurant that we all used to go to. It was called Versailles. And you'd eat the garlic chicken and you'd smell for, like, four days.

[43:18] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[43:18] Speaker 2: And it was just awesome. And, uh, so we, we... I created what's called the Versailles Racing Syndicate, and I brought in, like, 10 or 15 guys. We actually bought a horse. We, we named her No More Worries. We thought, you know, she was gonna be a champion, and we had a great time. And then I started these little, kind of, what I'll call claiming funds where I'd raise money and we'd claim horses and just for, you know, action. And then, uh, my good friend, Bruce Corwin, who we, we lost recently unfortunately, who was the head of, uh, Metropolitan Theatres out here, another Hollywood connection, um, loaned me some money to, to go buy some horses and I... 'cause I said I wanted to try to make it into a business, and he was kind enough to, to, uh, give me some money. And I went out and we bought three horses with a gentleman named Don Chatlos. And, uh, the second horse we ever bought, uh, in 2000, in, I think 2000, uh, was Singletary.

[44:13] Speaker 1: Wow.

[44:13] Speaker 2: And that was... We start... That was when we started Little Red Feather was, uh, with, uh, the group that was Singletary. We bought a group of three horses, and Don picked out Singletary. I give him all the credit. Uh, and, uh, all he did was, you know, go win the, uh, 2004 Breeder's Cup Mile, uh, at Lone Star Park, one of the greatest days of my life. And, uh, the rest is history. I mean, we've, we've-... I've-... I knew nothing. I, I readily admit that, that, uh, that was now 21 years ago. Uh, I, I have learned so much and I continue to learn. This is... The great thing about this sport and this game is you, you, you're... you have to be a sponge. You have to learn. You have to continue to listen to people that you trust and respect. And you can never stop learning. Um...

[45:00] Speaker 1: It's very true.

[45:01] Speaker 2: And the... You're never, you're never... you're, you're not always going to be right. You're not always going to be wrong. And you just try to, to limit your mistakes and to try to, try to, uh, grow and learn and, and continue to, um... especially for us who have... we, we, you know, we report to a lot of partners. I mean, Little Red Feather has, you know, probably over 500 active investors. Uh, we have a very large mailing list. And, and people trust us because they know, um, we're going to do the best we can to, to find the best horses we can, to treat them the best we can, to run them in the appropriate spots, to win races and to bring, you know, the thrill and the, and the energy and the excitement, uh, to horse racing. So that's, that's kind of that-... that's kind of the, the quick history of Little Red Feather. But trust me, there's been some lean times.

[45:49] Speaker 2: I mean, the 2008, when a recession was really tough, I didn't even know if we were gonna make it, um, because we need, we need investors. And we always need new investors. So we're always on the lookout for people who want to try this. But I'm extremely realistic with them, and when people call me and they ask, uh, "Well, can you show me the ROI of your last five partnerships?" I literally tell them, "You do not want to do that if that's your question."

[46:13] Speaker 1: Yeah. You're looking at this all wrong.

[46:15] Speaker 2: We don't-

[46:15] Speaker 1: You do this because you want-

[46:17] Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't... This is not an investment. This is not an investment. This is to... this is... this game is to be done with disposable income, um, and to have fun and to, to have the experience. It's all about the experience of, of owning a thoroughbred race horse. That's all it is.

[46:33] Speaker 1: Well, and it's... and it... and I think, you know, you to-... we touched on it in the beginning, and, you know, it's amazing to me that I really feel, and I'm not just saying this because I'm talking to you, but I really feel like groups like yours, you know, Little Red Feather, are, are really good for the industry because, you know, one of the things that we need is more owners, fresh owners, people getting invested.

[46:57] Speaker 2: Absolutely.

[46:58] Speaker 1: You know, I don't... I've said this for a long time. People like you, and most of my guests, have forgot more than I know about horse racing. But I've said, you know, I've been sitting in the audience watching the show for quite a while, and you start to see patterns. And one of the things that I noticed was, you know, and I'm kind of... I feel like I kind of straddle this, so I'm involved in horse racing, I'm involved in multiple other things in sports, and, and I've even raced myself SCCA Corvettes for 21 years. Um, and I've said this for a long time that the difference now is there's more competition for the guy with, as you put it, disposable income. So the young professional that is kind of successful, you know, why does he want to get involved in horse racing? What is it?

[47:47] Speaker 1: You know, we need to really do things to attract those people because there's other things going after them that are, quite frankly, shinier and brighter, you know, whether it's a big boat or a Ferrari or a racing or just pleasure or collection, you know, it's all kind of competing for that same, what I would call entertainment disposable dollar. So I really think things like Little Red Feather are great because, you know, you... what we... we need something. I mean, my area's horse is great, right? I have nothing... you know, I think it's a great idea. I don't have anything negative to say. Um, I know they get... there's some controversy. People like it, people don't. But I will say it's, it's... I look at it like an entry level. But then when the guy wants to go to the next step, it feels like there's a big, big step there. You know what I mean?

[48:40] Speaker 1: How do you take the guy-

[48:42] Speaker 2: Well, it's just... it's just more risk and more expense. That's all. I mean-

[48:45] Speaker 1: More risk but there's-

[48:47] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[48:47] Speaker 1: That's where I feel like organizations like yours, if more people know about it, they, they could get involved and kind of go to that next level.

[48:55] Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely.

[48:56] Speaker 1: You know what I mean? And that's where-

[48:58] Speaker 2: Absolutely.

[48:58] Speaker 1: ... you know, because I mean, like West Point Thoroughbreds, they do a tremendous job.

[49:02] Speaker 2: Yep.

[49:02] Speaker 1: But you've got to be fairly established to step into that, you know, because they don't like-

[49:07] Speaker 2: No. I mean...

[49:08] Speaker 1: You know.

[49:09] Speaker 2: Yeah. There's, there's... Listen, there's different, there's different platforms-

[49:12] Speaker 1: There's levels, right?

[49:12] Speaker 2: ... there's different companies, just like, just like in everything. And, and listen, there's a bunch of companies like Little Red Feather that do a great job. Uh, friends with all of them, we all have the same goals and aspirations, and we just want to provide our partners with the best possible experience. And that's the bottom line.

[49:29] Speaker 1: I agree. There's a lot of good people.

[49:30] Speaker 2: Whether I race horse or... Yeah.

[49:32] Speaker 1: My point is-

[49:32] Speaker 2: And you didn't even ask me about Little Red Feather. That's, you know-

[49:35] Speaker 1: ... my point is, I feel like the company, the word doesn't get out there.

[49:37] Speaker 2: Yeah. The name came from my grandfather.

[49:40] Speaker 1: Oh, that's so cool.

[49:42] Speaker 2: Yeah. My grandfather used to, when I was a little kid, he would tell me bedtime stories about a fictitious Indian chief named Chief Little Red Feather. And Chief Little Red Feather would always get into trouble and he'd have to figure it out. And that was kind of these stories, these bedtime stories that he would tell me when I was little. And so when he passed and I started Little Red Feather, I wanted to dedicate it to him. So that's where you get Little Red Feather from. And I have no, uh, I have no Native American, uh, uh, uh, ties other than, other than my grandfather's bedtime stories. So, um, there you go.

[50:15] Speaker 1: That's a cool story.

[50:15] Speaker 2: I, I hope we don't get... I, I hope we don't get canceled.

[50:19] Speaker 1: No, no. I... No, I hope, um...

[50:21] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[50:21] Speaker 1: Like I said, um, I don't know how you could. I mean, that's like, you know, to have it be... To have it come from your grandpa is pretty, pretty amazing.

[50:29] Speaker 2: That's pretty good. That's pretty good.

[50:30] Speaker 1: I mean, plus he was such a legend. I mean, it's just pretty cool. I think that-

[50:35] Speaker 2: No, I owe... Listen, I owe-

[50:35] Speaker 1: That just steps you up a notch in my world. (laughs)

[50:38] Speaker 2: Yeah. I owe a lot to my grandparents, I owe a lot to my dad and my family, and you know, also just... You know, it's like anything else, and it's like what I tell my kids is like, uh, if you, if you do something that you love, um, it's not work. And I've been extremely fortunate and, and blessed by the amount of people that have gotten involved with Little Red Feather and, and trust us and, and, uh, have provided, you know, a great life for my own family, um, that, that is all due to these horses. So I have great respect, great admiration for anybody who is willing to put their hard-earned money into this sport. And, um, I... Believe me, I thank my lucky stars every day. And if there's one lesson out there to learn as we wrap this up is that, you know, y- you, you know, I know it's cliche and, but you can follow your dreams, you know, you, you can do what you really want to do and, and you'll be successful at it.

[51:34] Speaker 2: If you work hard and, and, uh, surround yourself with people who are really better than you and smarter than you, and uh, I... Then y- y- y- you should do whatever you want. And, and I tell that to my kids and they know that, and, and we support them no matter, you know, when they're ready to give up and, and... I mean, my son was ready to quit acting and then got this job on, uh, the... This incredible role on Monsters. You know, he was literally scooping ice cream at an ice cream store, and he was just about ready to be done. And then this happens and it changed his life.

[52:06] Speaker 2: And you just have to, you have to support it-

[52:08] Speaker 1: How many times do you hear that from-

[52:08] Speaker 2: ... and you have to believe in yourself.

[52:11] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[52:12] Speaker 2: Yeah. You have to, you have to just believe in yourself, believe in what you're doing, believe in your product and, and, and work hard. But it's like, for me, I'm so lucky. I get to go to Florida next week and go to the two-year-old in-training sale in Ocala. And I love that and be around... You see the entire community come together and looking for that next superstar, and that's, that's my goal.

[52:32] Speaker 1: I agree. And, you know, it is, it is amazing. I couldn't agree with it more. I mean, I think that that's... I tell my kids, um, I have a son who's 22 and my daughter's 18, and I say, it's... I say very similar things. I always tell them, "You can do anything you want. You just have to want it bad enough."

[52:48] Speaker 2: Yup.

[52:49] Speaker 1: You have to want it bad enough to work for it. And, you know, if you really believe in it, put yourself into it, it'll come. And, you know, as we come up on the top of the hour, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention your show, The Owner's Box. And I've been wanting to ask you-

[53:03] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

[53:04] Speaker 1: ... how it came about.

[53:07] Speaker 2: I, uh... I was tired of-

[53:09] Speaker 1: 'Cause you were... So s-

[53:09] Speaker 2: I was tired of reading-

[53:11] Speaker 1: You were brought on this-

[53:12] Speaker 2: ... articles. I was tired of reading articles that said that this horse was Bob Baffert's horse, or Todd Pletcher's horse, or Phil D'Amato's horse. I said, "Why don't they talk to the owners?" So there was no show dedicated to talking to the owners of these horses and hearing their stories. So Michelle, you and I have been doing this for about 10 years now, maybe more. We really were like one of the first people to...

[53:36] Speaker 2: Before podcasting got really, really popular, um-

[53:39] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[53:39] Speaker 2: ... and we have archives of shows with incredible people, owners, bloodstock agents, vets, um, you know, and, and it's really become this like cult following. You don't think anybody's listening, and then you go to the track at Keeneland on a Saturday and people are like, "Hey man, love the show." And I'm like, "Oh, really?"

[53:55] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[53:56] Speaker 2: So-

[53:56] Speaker 1: I get it. It's, it's, it's fun.

[53:58] Speaker 2: It's been a fun... I never... Yeah, I don't... I, I, I, I tell people this all the time, I don't make any money. Um, I never wanted to be at the mercy of, of trying to make money to do a podcast. Um, and we do have some sponsorships, but I... It's not... It doesn't go to me. I just do it to get the word out, to get ownership, you know, out there and have people tell their... And have these owners who are so important to our game tell their stories about how they got involved and, you know, um, we've had everybody on our show. So it's, uh, it's pretty fun. It's a, it's a good listen, we're very positive. Try to stay out of the... A lot of the... We don't want to have a show where we're just talking about issues, although I do get on my soapbox sometimes. Um, but it is, it's called The Owner's Box, it's on a... It's on, uh, all your podcast channels and, uh, hopefully, uh, you know, it, it continues to go on. It's, it's fun to do. I enjoy it.

[54:49] Speaker 1: No, I think it's a great concept. It's kind of like this show where we just talk. I really try to focus on what people don't know, keep it positive. I mean, as you say, once in a while I take a jab here or there, but you can't love something if you don't...

[55:03] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[55:04] Speaker 1: ... and, you know-

[55:04] Speaker 3: Absolutely, man. Well, I appreciate the time, man. I, I thank you for-

[55:08] Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for-

[55:08] Speaker 3: ... uh, having me on and, uh, yeah, you're-

[55:11] Speaker 1: It is-

[55:11] Speaker 3: No, I'm wishing you, wishing you all the-

[55:12] Speaker 1: ... truly.

[55:13] Speaker 3: ... success with your podcast and, and, uh, you know, we'll definitely see you out at the track sometime.

[55:19] Speaker 1: I really appreciate it, Billy, and my best to your family. And I have to tell you, it's truly an honor, and I, you know, I would love to have you and your sister on sometime to talk more about this (laughs) .

[55:29] Speaker 3: Yeah (laughs) , she, she knows more of the stories than I. She has a much better memory than I do, so, um, yeah. I'll, I'll mention it to her and we'll see if we can do something.

[55:36] Speaker 1: That would be terrific. Thank you very much-

[55:38] Speaker 3: All right, Mark.

[55:38] Speaker 1: ... I really appreciate you joining us. Um, we've been, we gotta take a minute here and, you know, thank a few people. So if you have employees who have healthcare issues, take a minute and look at mvgrayhealthcare.com. She is the best of the best when it comes to healthcare consulting. I don't make a dime off this. I put this out there because I truly believe she's the best there ever was at this. Um, if you're in New York, go to King Umbertos. If you're in Miami, you have to check out The Palm, and we hope that you will take a chance and go to a track somewhere. Horse racing is an incredible way to spend an afternoon. Get out, see one, there's big tracks, small tracks, doesn't matter where you go, you'll enjoy it, and I guarantee, as Billy and I talked about, you'll be hooked for life. This has been Hollywood to Horsepower. We thank you for joining us, and we'll see you again next week.

[56:40] Speaker 1: (instrumental music plays)