[00:00] Speaker 1: (instrumental music plays) Welcome to Hollywood to Horsepower, the show about the story behind the story. Today, we are joined by a very special guest, Matthew Wiz Buckley. Matt is a actual Top Gun graduate. He was a Navy fighter pilot. He... And I will let him tell the stories. He's gone on since then to become the founder of No Fallen Heroes and Top Gun Options. And I have to say, it's an honor to speak with him today, and I can't thank him enough for joining us. Wiz, welcome to the show.

[00:55] Speaker 2: Thanks, Mark. Thanks for having me, man. I appreciate it.

[00:58] Speaker 1: I certainly appreciate it. And we have a lot in common, and I'm really looking forward to talking to you. Um, always fun to talk to somebody else who's a fellow aviator. So, you-

[01:10] Speaker 2: Exactly.

[01:11] Speaker 1: ... have an amazing career. And, I mean, it, it goes back. And really what I'd like to do today is kind of go back and have you kind of bring us forward. So, you know, as a kid, and I, you know, I think I know the answer to this, because it's very similar with almost every aviator I've met. But, um, what was it, what ir- early age do you remember first getting the bike, getting the bug? And what was it that made you want to fly? Was your dad in the Navy? Or what was it?

[01:42] Speaker 2: Uh, no. It, it, it was actually a neighbor across the street. So, uh, growing up, my, my best friend growing up lived across the street. And his dad, uh, was a pilot in the, a fighter pilot in the New Jersey Air National Guard. And he flew F-106s out of Atlantic City International Airport. And, uh, and this guy was larger than life. I mean, um, I'm going to date myself here, but I grew up in the '80s. And that was, you know, the height of the Cold War.

[02:10] Speaker 1: Sure.

[02:11] Speaker 2: And, you know-

[02:11] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[02:11] Speaker 2: ... there was Russian, uh, Bear Bombers that would launch in and out of Cuba and fly up the Eastern Seaboard. And they'd, you know, kind of drift into our airspace and, you know, time our reaction time, uh, of, you know, uh, s- scrambling the fighter jets. So this guy drove a Trans Am, he, you know, wore an orange flight suit, and he was just larger, uh, larger than life to me. And, uh, I remember, uh, you know, getting ready to go to school one day. And he told my, my buddy and I, "Hey, when you guys get off the bus after school, make sure you stay at the bus stop. Don't m- don't move." And I'm like, "Well, that's weird. The bus stop's right up the street from us on the, on the top of this little hill. It's right over there. Why? I, I don't, I don't understand. We don't need a ride or anything." But he was kind of an imposing character, so I listened to him. So we got off the bus and we're just kinda standing at the top of this hill.

[03:08] Speaker 2: And I remember looking across the bay, you know, towards Atlantic City. And I remember seeing this smoking dot, just a little dot on horizon that was smoking. And before I could register what it was, this F-106 was literally right on top of us, pulled straight up in max afterburner, and blew me and my buddy around, and our books, and, you know-

[03:32] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[03:32] Speaker 2: ... I had like rocks in my teeth and my hair. And I remember looking straight up at this, uh, this fighter jet doing aileron rolls as it went straight up. And I said, "Yeah, that's, that's pretty much what I'm gonna do the rest of my life." And, uh, you know, I, I, I grew up watching, you know, a lot of war movies with my dad. And, and, uh, you know, The Bridges at Toko-Ri and The Flying Leathernecks, and all sorts of other kind of, uh, you know, Battle of Midway and all those type of movies. And, you know, an- anybody can land on a, on a runway. And it always struck me that naval aviators not only had to go out and fly a mission, but they also had to come back and land aboard a boat. So, kind of from my earliest age, I, I knew I wanted to be a pilot, but I also knew I wanted to fly fighter jets for the Navy, uh, off of aircraft carriers.

[04:19] Speaker 1: That's amazing. And it's always amazing to me when people are so driven at a young age and, and, you know, actually achieve the goal. So you go through high school, you... What, at what point did you enlist? Did you... How did you come about going in?

[04:36] Speaker 2: Uh, yeah. So graduated from high school in, in New Jersey, Saint Augustine Prep. And then I went down, uh, to college in Florida. And I was... I went through, uh, Navy ROTC. So-

[04:46] Speaker 1: Okay.

[04:47] Speaker 2: ... uh, graduated. Yeah. So I graduated from ROTC and selected, uh, flight. Uh, and then, uh, went to where all naval aviators are born. Went to Pensacola Naval Air Station, uh, in Florida.

[05:01] Speaker 1: Very cool. So what year was it that you went in? When did you join the fleet?

[05:07] Speaker 2: Yeah. So I, uh, I, I got commissioned in 1991. And-

[05:11] Speaker 1: Okay.

[05:11] Speaker 2: ... uh, i- initially there was kind of a, a, a bubble in the pipeline. So I got stashed down at Naval Air Station Key West for about eight months, which was just-

[05:21] Speaker 1: Not a horrible place to be.

[05:22] Speaker 2: .... I mean, it was absolute... Yeah, exactly. It was, uh, (laughs) it was a dream job. I played volleyball and went to the beach. And then there was a lot of two-seat S-16s, F-5s and A-4s in this adversary squadron I was stashed at. So I think I got like, I don't know, 50, 60 hours in the backseat of these fighter jets before I even went to flight school for the Navy (laughs) . So, uh, eventually went to flight school, uh, in Pensacola. Uh, and, you know, naval aviation is a pyramid, right?

[05:52] Speaker 2: You, you gotta get-

[05:53] Speaker 1: That's true.

[05:53] Speaker 2: ... to the top. 'Cause, you know, at the bottom, the Navy, uh, uh, you know, everybody wants to fly fighter jets unless, you know, people say, "Oh, I just, I just wanted to fly helicopters," which I never believed. But everybody kind of goes in the bottom of the pyramid.... and then it's based on grades. You have to be at the top of, of primary flight training. So, I finished, uh, at the top of my class in primary and selected jets. Uh, and when I selected jets, I went down to Kingsville Naval Air Station in Texas, right outside of Corpus Christi. Uh...

[06:25] Speaker 1: I know it pretty well.

[06:26] Speaker 2: And then when... Yeah. And, and then when I selected jets, guess what? It's, it's another pyramid, because the Navy at the time had a lot of jets. They had S-3s, you know, doing anti-submarine. They had A-6s doing attack. They had, uh, jammers, you know, a Prowler. They had F-14 Tomcats. And then obviously, at the time, when I was going through flight school in the early l- '90s, the, the F-18 Hornet was the, the brand new, you know, awesome jet.

[06:53] Speaker 2: So-

[06:53] Speaker 1: That was the hot run.

[06:54] Speaker 2: ... I busted my ass. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I busted my ass in, in, in flight training, uh, in jet training, and I selected at the top of my class and got Hornets on the West Coast.

[07:07] Speaker 1: That's so cool. So how long were you in before you got selected for Miramar?

[07:15] Speaker 2: Uh, so I did two deployments when I was based up at Lemoore Naval Air Station, right there in the middle of, of California. I deployed on the Abraham Lincoln and the Kitty Hawk. So I did two deployments over to the Persian Gulf, did the no-fly zone missions, uh, over Iraq, and then... So that's called a sea tour.

[07:35] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[07:36] Speaker 2: Once you do a s- a three or a sea tour, then you go what's on, uh, what's called shore duty. So I s- uh, I asked to go down to... It was El Toro at the time, Marine Corps Air Station El Toro. So I went down to El Toro '96, '97-ish, uh, and I was an LSO. So the, uh... It was a Marine fighter attack training squadron, so we taught Navy and Marine aviators how to fly and fight the Hornet. But I went there specifically to be an LSO, so I would teach the young men and women who were learning to fly the Hornet how to land aboard the boat for the first time, day and night. So I was in El Toro for about a year, and then El Toro closed because of, you know, BRAC, Base Realignment, uh, stuff. So that's when our squadron moved down to Miramar. So I finished up, uh, my two years of... My last two years on active duty, uh, down in Miramar.

[08:33] Speaker 1: Okay. That's really cool. And then, so you get out and you start, at that point, I'm assuming, you know, Top Gun Options. Was that really when that was born?

[08:44] Speaker 2: Well, no, it didn't. It, it was a bit

[08:46] Speaker 1: Before that even, yeah.

[08:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So there's... So I got off active duty in 2000, and I won the lottery. So winning the lottery in, in the year 2000 was getting off active duty and getting hired by an Air Guard Squadron or a Reserve Squadron and still flying fighters, you know, part-time, while also being an airline pilot. So-

[09:08] Speaker 1: Okay.

[09:08] Speaker 2: ... I got hired by Sh-... Yeah. I got hired by FedEx, and I got hired by Strike Fighter Squadron 201 at Naval Air Station Fort Worth. Um, so I, I was sitting on top of the world, man, flying fighters part-time, and, uh, gonna go be a rich airline pilot. Well, here's what happened. Um, you know, being based, I lived in Fort Worth, and, you know, flying, uh, flying fighters, but I was having to commute from Memphis... or, uh, from Fort Worth up to Memphis to, to do all my FedEx trips.

[09:41] Speaker 1: To go to work, yeah.

[09:42] Speaker 2: Uh, and it sucked. You know, I was in my early 30s, and I gotta be honest, man, it was kicking my ass. I could not... I hated it. I hated flying, you know, from midnight until 8:00 in the morning, and trying to sleep during the day in a hotel. It just... That was not for me. I remember specifically getting off a FedEx trip and going into the squadron, and I was, like, falling asleep in the ready room, you know? I'm, like, sitting there, and a buddy of mine... You know, most g-...

[10:11] Speaker 2: I'd say out of the 15 to 17 pilots in my Reserve Squadron in Fort Worth, I'd say about 14 of them flew for American Airlines, uh, 'cause, you know, that's where AW-

[10:22] Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense. Dallas.

[10:24] Speaker 2: That's where...

[10:24] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[10:25] Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was sitting in the ready room, and a buddy of mine slid his cellphone across the table, and he's like, "Hey, man, do me a favor. Since it looks like you're falling asleep here and you're not flying, you know, I'm gonna go do a 1v1 dogfight, and I'm sitting reserve for American. So if my phone rings and it's crew scheduling, do me a favor and, you know, lie. Tell them you're me, and you'll be there in, like, two hours." And I was like, "Are you kidding me?" So, you know, my buddies were sit-... you know, sitting reserve for American, getting paid, and flying for the Navy. And I said, "You know what, man? That's it." So I quit FedEx, and I went to American. And then, as luck, or actually not luck, would have it, uh, the morning of September 11th, uh, 2001, I was packing for my first trip, uh, as a pilot for American Airlines.

[11:16] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[11:17] Speaker 2: And, uh, my wife came in the bedroom and said, "Hey, you better, uh, come look at the TV," so, you know, somebody hit the, hit it with a... They hit the World Trade Center with a plane, and I said, "You know, busy woman, probably bad weather or small airplane," and she just kind of had this look on her face. So I, you know, I'm like, "Uh-oh." W- I went out and saw the TV, and I saw what everybody else saw. Beautiful day in New York City and just a big fiery smoking hole. And I remember standing there going through my mental aviation checklist of how that could have happened and boom.

[11:50] Speaker 1: Exactly.

[11:50] Speaker 2: The next plane hit.

[11:51] Speaker 1: I think, that's one of those moments I think everybody remembers in history. You know, they say that... Like, my dad always told me, "Everyone remembered where they were when JFK was shot." Like, he, he-

[12:02] Speaker 2: Exactly.

[12:03] Speaker 1: ... told me, he said, "I knew exactly where I was. I was crossing the street in Lincoln Park. I, I, I knew where I was."I feel like 9/11's that same type of thing. Everybody remembers-

[12:14] Speaker 2: Absolutely.

[12:14] Speaker 1: ... where they were.

[12:15] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[12:15] Speaker 1: I was sitting at my desk, and I did the exact same thing that you did. I'm literally computing what it would take to make this happen in the most secure airspace in North America-

[12:27] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[12:27] Speaker 1: ... and here comes the second plane.

[12:30] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was, uh, it was, it was insane. So in, in the blink of an eye, I knew we were under attack. So I raced into the bedroom, and I still had my American Airlines uniform from that day. It's still wrapped in plastic 'cause I, I ran into the bedroom, and I slid that out of the way, and I threw on my flight suit. I threw on my boots, didn't even tie my boots. I hopped into my old Porsche, and I, I did about 150 miles an hour out the Naval Air Station Fort Worth. And I got out there just as they closed it and went to a combat posture.

[13:02] Speaker 1: Wow.

[13:02] Speaker 2: Yep.

[13:02] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[13:03] Speaker 2: Uh, me, me and one other pilot from my squadron made it out there, uh, and we called down to maintenance and told the chief, "Hey, man, get, you know, get two jets, uh, uh, fueled at least." We didn't ha- you know, we're a Naval Air Station in the middle of Texas. We didn't have any, uh, air-to-air missiles, but we had bullets. So I said, "Hey, l- load 'em up." And then that's when the general called from next door. There, uh, there's an Air Force Reserve Squadron next door to us called the 457th Fighter Squadron, the SPADS. So the general called over and said, "Hey, Wiz, w- who do you have?" I said, "It's me and Gruff, sir." He said, "Well, get over here to our command post. I got four F-16 guys that made it on, and, uh, let's brief." So Gruff and I ran next door, you know, went into the ca- command post, and it was like Lexington and Concord, you know, six part-time aviators, uh, planning to get airborne to, uh, defend our country. Um, they had missiles.

[13:59] Speaker 2: You know, it's a rich Air Force squadron. So the, the general was barking orders to, to get us armed after the F-16s got armed. Um, and as we were in there, the command post, or I'm sorry, the, uh, the Pentagon got hit. It was just a incredibly surreal moment.

[14:14] Speaker 1: Unreal.

[14:14] Speaker 2: So the F-16s, uh, got ready before us, and they got airborne. And Gruff and I went to the end of the runway and sat there with our engines turning, waiting for them to land, and then we were gonna get airborne. But obviously, after, you know, they were airborne for, like, an hour or so, everything in the country had landed, uh, by that point. So Gruff and I didn't get airborne, but we still sat there with the engines turning, uh, just in case. So, uh, yeah, so that, that, that was, you know, that was my airline career. I, I got a photocopied letter from American Airlines' HR, uh, like, you know, a couple weeks later that said, "Dear Crew Member, you're furloughed." So I lost my, you know... In the blink of an eye, I lost my healthcare, my pension, my rich airline job. But I, you know, I couldn't feel too sorry for myself, man, you know, looking at the tens of thousands of lives that had been changed or, or taken on that day. So I, I, I kind of had to stop feeling sorry for myself.

[15:10] Speaker 2: Um, but thankfully-

[15:10] Speaker 1: How long did you stay on, on call then at the, at the base?

[15:16] Speaker 2: Well, we, for the next three days, we were sitting alert. Matter of fact, on September, I think it was 14, I launched. Gruff and I actually prepared again, just the way the flight schedule came out. We were, uh, sitting alert, and I, I launched on a contact that got airborne. Uh, if, if you remember, after 9/11, each day, they tried to get the airspace open, right? They're like, "Oh, we're gonna try and open it today," and then they didn't.

[15:40] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[15:40] Speaker 2: "Uh, tomorrow, we're gonna try," and then they didn't. Well, the... Uh, I guess this guy thought the airspace was open, and he tal- took off out of Waco, and we actually, uh, intercepted him and forced him to land into a grass strip. So we were, we were sitting alert, uh, sitting alert all the way up until the, I think September 15th, maybe, they opened, uh, the airspace. Um, so yeah.

[16:01] Speaker 1: Mm. Yeah, I remember that because I had guys stuck in, um, Las Vegas at a trade show.

[16:08] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[16:08] Speaker 1: When this happened, they called me, and they were like, "What should we do?" And I said, "Go get a rental car. Do not tell them what you're doing. Go to a s- department store, get as many gas cans as you can, and put them in the trunk and fill them because you're probably gonna be driving back to Michigan." And that's what we did.

[16:25] Speaker 2: Right.

[16:25] Speaker 1: And they, uh, we did a lot of explaining to explain why we were returning a local rental car in Michigan, but it was what you had to do to survive. (laughs)

[16:35] Speaker 2: Yeah. That's exactly... Yeah, you had to do what you had to do. I mean, most of the guys, it w- you know... I went from potentially flying in an airliner that day to shooting one down, um-

[16:44] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[16:44] Speaker 2: ... to even pot- you know, to potentially shooting down a squadron mate. I mean, most of the guys in my reserve squadron were airborne that day. So imagine being ordered to shoot down an airliner full of civilians, let alone one flown by your, you know, one of your best friends. Uh, so pretty, pretty str-

[17:01] Speaker 1: No, no, no. I think that's something that most people don't, can't comprehend. That's, that's a very... Yeah, I mean, that's something only an aviator can comprehend.

[17:11] Speaker 2: Yeah, tru- trust me, man. It, it, it, it was a very surreal... (laughs) And still, when I talk about it, I, I, I, it's almost like, uh, it, it had happened to somebody else, so. Um, but yeah, so after that, you know, thankfully, my reserve squadron got, uh, you know, a, a ton more money, so I could... We call it reserve bumming. So I essentially turned into a reserve bum, uh, to feed my family and, and pay my mortgage. But after that, you know, in the background, uh, you know, you don't, you don't join the Navy to get rich, obviously, clearly.

[17:45] Speaker 2: You join the Navy to see the world and-

[17:48] Speaker 1: Yeah, different calling.

[17:48] Speaker 2: ... you know, yeah, defend your country and stuff like that. But in the background, I was always interested in finance. Like, you know, I was like, "Hey, man, I'd like to retire rich or make additional money." So I taught myself how to trade, you know, stocks and options when I was on active duty. I, you know... Trading's a form of combat when you think about it. Somebody's gonna win, and somebody's gonna get, you know, their ass kicked. So why wouldn't I use all the same methodologies that, you know, I used flying a fighter, uh, in my trading? And it worked incredibly well.Um, uh, also around that time, I did a little business consulting, and I ended up popping up on the radar of a large options trading firm headquartered in the Chicago Board of Trade. So I went up there for a weekend and, you know, worked with the company to teach them how to ... you know, some fighter pilot stuff; how to plan, how to debrief, how to manage risk. Uh, and you know, had a great time.

[18:43] Speaker 2: Got along with the owners of the company. He was from Jersey, I'm from Jersey, kind of the same age, so really a great time. And you know, I hopped on the plane and flew home, and didn't think anything ab- about it. You know, on to the next consulting client type of thing. And they picked up the phone Monday morning and said, "Hey, when do you start?" I was like, "What are you talking about? I'm, I'm not a pro- a professional trader or Wall Street guy." And they said, "It doesn't matter. We, we just ... when we see good people, we, we, we scoop 'em up." And you know, I, I like to tell people they went, uh, you know, Don Corleone on me. They, they just made me an offer I couldn't ... 'cause I'd never seen that many zeros in my life. So I picked up, packed up the wife and kids, and we moved up to Chicago. And, uh, I helped run this multi-billion dollar trading firm for a couple years.

[19:31] Speaker 2: Um, which was great, but, you know, uh, no offense to anybody from the, from the Midwest, but y- you can keep it, man. I'm a beach guy, I'm a Navy guy. I need sun and sand, and you know, February in Chicago just ain't, ain't for the Wizz Fighter. So ... after-

[19:47] Speaker 1: No. I get it, I get it. I'm the exact same way. Grew up in Michigan, been all over the country. I'm definitely a Florida guy. I spend more of my winter there every year, and in fact, probably after this year I'll be there full-time. But same thing. I mean, I think it's in your blood. I mean, it's like you get a taste for the sea-

[20:05] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

[20:05] Speaker 1: ... and it's hard to break that. I mean, I was NAVCAD class of '89, so I'm kinda getting myself a little bit too. Did make through. I was in the top 2% of my class. Well, I went all the way through to the very end, and Navy doctor walks in and he's like, "You have any stomach pain?" "No."

[20:24] Speaker 3: Uh-huh.

[20:24] Speaker 1: "He says, "You will have." And I'm like, "Why?" And he goes, "You got kidney stones." I'm like-

[20:29] Speaker 2: Oh, man.

[20:31] Speaker 1: He goes, "It gets worse than that." I'm like, "What do you mean?" He goes, "You can't fly." I'm like, "What are you talking about?" (laughs) He's like-

[20:38] Speaker 2: Hm.

[20:38] Speaker 1: ... "It's an automatic ground. You're done." And I had a really good captain who was the head of this program. He was a re- ... He was such a cool guy. He was a retired, um, Vietnam combat fighter. He took on this program in NAVCAD, kind of babysat a bunch of idiots that didn't know what they were doing, and kind of was teaching us how to slowly become, you know, Navy pilots. Our next stop was going to be, um, Pensacola.

[21:05] Speaker 2: Uh-huh.

[21:06] Speaker 1: And he's like, you know, "Well," you know, he thought it, but there was no getting out. So yeah, I totally understand what you're saying, and a lot of this is really reminiscent for me and kind of takes you right back to where I was with those guys. I mean, it was a, a really tight-knit group of guys. We had ... in class of, um, '89, I believe there was 124 of us that entered, you know, entered the program. I was in the top 2% and there was 24 that graduated. I believe there's less than 12 of those guys still flying.

[21:40] Speaker 2: Oh, man. Wow.

[21:41] Speaker 1: Due to age. But it's like ... well, keep in mind, some of these guys retired, went on to other stuff. But it's like, it was like ... it shows you just what you're saying, how hard it is to get to that front seat. You know, you, you set these goals-

[21:56] Speaker 2: Right.

[21:56] Speaker 1: ... you want to do it, but it, it's, it's an achievement, so it's ... that's what makes it all the more exciting to talk to you because it is, it is ama- ... I know what it takes to get there, and it's, it's real cool.

[22:06] Speaker 2: (laughs) Well, I, I joke and even tell people, I mean, they, they must have been asleep at various stages through, (laughs) through my ascension through the program. Um, like, you know, getting ... you know, at 2003 or '04, uh, I got to go to Top Gun through the adversary course and oh my God, man. That was ... you know. Uh, people like, "Oh, you flew combat sorties over Iraq," and, and I go out of my way to tell people, my quote, air quote, "combat sorties" over Iraq were without a doubt the most boring flying I, I did flying a fighter jet.

[22:37] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[22:37] Speaker 2: Um, the, the scariest part of a Operation Southern Watch with combat sortie was landing aboard the boat, or getting fuel in the air at night off a KC-135. The toughest flying I ever did as a Naval aviator was at Top Gun. Um, and it sucked for me-

[22:56] Speaker 1: That's amazing.

[22:56] Speaker 2: ... because you know, it sucked for me because, uh, you know, I told you I was an instructor pilot in the F-18. So by the time I went through Top Gun, I think three or four of my former students were at Top Gun as instructors. So when I walked in the door, they're like, "Oh, (laughs) Wiz, hello." I'm like, "Oh, no." So they, uh, they gave it back to me pretty hard. Um, but it was, it was great going through Top Gun, especially as a bad guy, as an adversary. So, uh, there's two courses at Top Gun. There's the, the blue course, uh, that's really long and in-depth and it's for good guys. And then there's the red course, the adversary course, 'cause we need bad guys, right?

[23:36] Speaker 2: We need bad guys-

[23:37] Speaker 1: Sure.

[23:37] Speaker 2: ... to train the good guys. So if you saw Jester or, you know, whoever else in, uh, in Top Gun. So th- those are called adversary pilots. Um, and, and, uh, our squadron in Fort Worth, one of our main missions was to be an adversary squadron. So our jets were painted camouflage and, you know, we flew all the bad guy tactics and stuff like that. So, um, that's why-

[23:58] Speaker 1: And there's an art form there. I mean, that's tough flying.

[24:01] Speaker 2: Well, yeah. You not only have ... you have to be a very good good guy to get selected to be a bad guy, because you have to know everything about the Hornet and our tactics to be able to, uh, give a good red air presentation. So in addition to having to know all of your stuff as a good guy-... I had to know everything as a bad guy. I'd been... You know, I, I knew more about the MiG-29 and their missiles at some point than I did the Hornet. (laughs) You know, uh, I, I, I could build some of their missiles from memory. So, you know, I, w- w- we had to dig into their tactics. We had to dig into their weapons systems. We had to dig into their, uh, mindset and their training. So yeah, I, I, I fully immersed myself in, in the Red Air role. It was, you know, o- our job as a Red Air pilot is to die for the motherland, right?

[24:49] Speaker 2: If we're, if we're out there-

[24:50] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[24:50] Speaker 2: ... slaying good guys, we're in a lot of... We're in trouble. (laughs) So, you know, usually in a, in a two-week adversary detachment, you know, maybe the first three, four days, we're out there, you know, kicking some, some blue ass.

[25:04] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[25:04] Speaker 2: But for the next week and a half, we'd better be dying for the motherland or, or we're in a lot of trouble. Um.

[25:10] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[25:10] Speaker 2: So yeah, so went up to Chicago, helped run this trading firm, and then I said, "You know what, man? I can do this on my own." You know, you hear the term smart money or legendary investor. After three years on Wall Street, uh, I, I... And being in boardrooms and trading floors and seeing everything, there's no such thing as the smart money. I mean, un- unless we're all smart. I, I've been in rooms with multi-billionaires who couldn't think their way out of a paper bag. So I'm like, "You know what? I can do this on my own, man.

[25:43] Speaker 2: I, I just need to leave to Chicago."

[25:44] Speaker 1: Without the Chicago roots.

[25:46] Speaker 2: Um, yes, exactly. You know, my wife's from, uh, Boca Raton. I call it God's waiting room. My wife's from, you know, from Boca-

[25:54] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[25:54] Speaker 2: ... and, uh, you know, I dragged her around to some pretty bad, you know, Navy bases, like Kingsville and Lemoore, so I promised to get her home. So in about 2009, we moved from Chicago down here to Boca Raton, and I started, uh, Top Gun Options. So that, that's how Top Gun Op- Options came about.

[26:13] Speaker 1: Okay. So tell us a little bit, without giving it up, because I'm... I mean, not that it's an infomercial, but I want to talk a little bit about that. I mean, what makes Top Gun Options different than just another brokerage firm? Because I know it is very different.

[26:28] Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's, it's, uh, you know, again, I, I, I thank the Navy for their... The world-class training, because I just copied and pasted it. Um, a lot of other tra- So, you know, people talk about financial education, right? Like, "Oh, I'm gonna have a... There's a financial education." The world is full of educated derelicts. Education does nothing.

[26:49] Speaker 1: Yeah. No question.

[26:49] Speaker 2: Training, you know, training gives you a skill. Fighter pilots are trained, doctors are trained, plumbers are trained, right? So training... So I do financial training, um, and I just took the, the Navy training process. You know, when I showed up to Pensacola, there was two guys in my class that were polar opposites. One guy had never been... His first flight on an airline, on an airplane was from, like, Montana to Pensacola.

[27:17] Speaker 2: He had never-

[27:18] Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

[27:18] Speaker 2: ... been on an airliner, an airplane or anything. So his first flight was to flight school. And there was another guy with 6,000 hours. He was a Learjet pilot, you know, he was, like, a corporate pilot and, you know, said, "You know what? I, I want to fly for the Navy." So those two guys, classmates of mine, both entered the same training I did. Uh, and in a short amount of time, you know, they were steely-eyed killers flying off the pointy end of an aircraft carrier.

[27:45] Speaker 2: But the guy with 6,000 hours almost flunked out, 'cause the Navy is like, "Hey, man, this is how you fly an airplane." And he's like, "Oh, I was taught this." And they're like, "Are you not listening to us?"

[27:58] Speaker 1: I can see that.

[27:59] Speaker 2: "This is how you fly."

[27:59] Speaker 1: No, I can see that. There's something to the blank slate. And it-

[28:03] Speaker 2: Correct.

[28:03] Speaker 1: For people that don't know, the Navy fly is different than, than even the Air Force. I mean, there's definitely-

[28:10] Speaker 2: Right.

[28:10] Speaker 1: ... the Navy way of flying.

[28:12] Speaker 2: That's exactly right. Navy, Marine Corps, completely different way of flying than, uh, anybody else. So, um, so I took, you know, that same training process and methodology that can get somebody who's never even seen an airplane before, and in a short amount of time get them up to speed. Same thing with Top Gun Options. I take that same training program, and in a short amount of time, somebody who's never even... You know, they might know what stocks are. Uh, I, I can get them up to speed pretty quickly. And I use the demo-do approach. Same thing in flight training. You and I sit in a brief, and I look at you and say, "Talk me through how to do a loop." "All right, sir, here's how I do a loop." And I say, "Okay, good." When we get airborne, I'm gonna demonstrate how to do a loop. I'm gonna have the jet, I'm gonna do this, do this, do this, and I'm gonna do the loop. Then you are going to do the loop. So we call it demo-do.

[29:05] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[29:05] Speaker 2: So at Top Gun Options, we have training. I have a bunch of training sessions where I teach you all about options and stuff like that, and then the practical application part of that, the do, is Monday through Wednesday, I do a live trade brief. So people log into a, you know, a briefing room with me, and I go through what I call SOT, strategic, operational, tactical. I'll do an hour brief, where the first 10, 15 minutes is a strategic brief. What's going on around the world? What's going on in Israel, Iran, Ukraine, Russia, China? You know, what's going on around the globe? Because a lot of retail traders are very tactical. They get up in the morning, they put their bunny slippers on, take a sip of coffee, and, you know, they don't even know what they're doing for lunch, let alone what they should be investing in two years down the road. So I, I break them of that habit, and I go strategic.

[29:58] Speaker 2: And after we do that, you know, 10- to 15-minute strategic part of the brief, then I get operational and I cover everything that's going on in the United States. What's going on with the Fed, interest rates, what's going on in DC, what's going on with earnings. And then, and only then, after I do the strategic and operational brief, can we get tactical and trade. Most other folks would log into a, a, a seminar like that and go, "Okay, where are the trades? What am I doing?" And I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no."We got other stuff to do first, man. Trading's combat. You gotta go from the strategic level, to the operational level, before you can look at any trades or do anything, uh, tactically. So, that's kind of the, the difference between me and, and, and everybody else, uh, is, is that methodology that I just copied and pasted from the, from the Navy.

[30:48] Speaker 1: It's amazing you say that, because I've done the same thing. I mean, I've... Not to go off on it, but, you know, my background's all sales and marketing and branding. And it's funny, because I've, I've worked for some of the biggest companies in the world, luxury brands, and, um, I've applied those same things. You know, the, you know, the art concept and, you know, it's, it's something that I think is ingrained in you.

[31:11] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[31:11] Speaker 1: And when you get it, it, it kind of... Once it makes sense, it makes sense to everything. You can apply it to anything you're doing. And that's obviously the same for you with trading as it is... You know?

[31:24] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[31:24] Speaker 1: Like what I've done with sales and marketing and branding. So, that's really cool. I think that's, that says a lot. And, you know, another shout-out to the Navy, I guess.

[31:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

[31:37] Speaker 1: So, it, it... Not to, you know, digre- you know, zigzag around, but, you know, through this, and I think another thing that was really critical, was some of the things that you saw veterans struggling with, which, you know, I commend you on. You know, there's a lot of... One of the things I think that's amazing is how effective your program No Fallen Heroes is.

[32:04] Speaker 2: Mm.

[32:04] Speaker 1: And, you know, how did that come about? You know, you've got, you know, Top Gun Options. At what point did No Fallen Heroes become part of this?

[32:14] Speaker 2: Well, (laughs) it, it, it actually had to do with trading, uh, a little bit of it, because in 2020, uh, I timed, I predicted the COVID market crash literally to the day. Uh, I, I had a buddy who was in the White House as a military aide. You know, I, I called him my Deep Throat. He was kind of, he was like, "Dude." H- he told me this in December of 2019. He said, "Hey, man. People are freaking the hell out. A, something escaped from the only level four weapons lab in China, and it's gonna rip around the world, and it's, you know, it's like a bio weapon, man. They're freaking out." I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" He's like, "Nope." Uh, so I started telling my members everything I was hearing. And then I'll never forget, January 22nd, uh, Donald Trump was in Davos.

[33:07] Speaker 2: You know, Switzerland, they, they do the annual-

[33:09] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[33:09] Speaker 2: ... beautiful people get-together, right? Um, and as a matter of fact, you, you know, you can put this on Ray Dalio's headstone. Now, Ray Dalio is the largest hedge fund manager in the world. But th- this famous quote will live in infamy. Uh, he said, on that day, uh, "Cash is trash." Meaning, if you're not in the stock market right now, you're an idiot. So, Ray Dalio said that, and then Donald Trump, on the morning of January 22nd, was, uh, giving an interview on CNBC. And Joe Kiernan was interviewing. And, you know, standard interview, Trump, Trump, Trump, all talking about himself. And at the end, it was almost like a throwaway question.

[33:53] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[33:53] Speaker 2: Joe Kiernan's like, "Wait, hold on, Mr. President, before you go. What's up with this China bug or flu or, or something?" And Trump was Trump, man. He's like, "What a dumb question. Why are you even asking me that? You're an idiot. It's not coming here. I trust Xi Jinping. Great dude. Been to Mar-a-Lago, got a good back swing. You're an idiot, not coming here." I looked in the... Uh, I was in a live trade brief with my members, and I looked into the camera, and I said, "Get out." I said, "He's lying. Get out." I said, "Buy puts on the S&P 500, get long volatility." And then, I think a day or two later is when we started the implosion.

[34:33] Speaker 1: Wow.

[34:33] Speaker 2: And then that's why, you know, a little earlier, I was making fun of the smart money, right?

[34:37] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[34:37] Speaker 2: 'Cause do you remember what happened every day the Dow went down like 1,000 or 3,000 points? All the smart money, like Kyle Bass or Ray Dalio or Bill Ackman, they were crying on CNBC. I think it was Kyle Bass-

[34:52] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[34:52] Speaker 2: ... who was like, "We, we need to close the markets." And I'm like, "No, no, no, no. No."

[34:56] Speaker 1: "Lock it down."

[34:56] Speaker 2: "That's not how."

[34:57] Speaker 1: (laughs) "Stop the risk."

[34:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm li-, I'm like, "No, no, no, no, that's not how this works, man. I'm on the other side of your bullish trades. I am making money as this thing burns." Uh, so the, the smart money, you know, each day they're like, "Oh, this is the bottom. I'd be a buyer here." I'll never forget, and I have a screenshot of it, 'cause he deleted it. But Donald Trump quoted, uh, wrote a tweet one morning, one of those mornings, that said, "Stocks are looking good here. I'd be a buyer of stocks." The next day, the Dow went down 3,000 points, and I think I made about $75 grand. It was obscene. So, here's what I'm getting at. I, I think we made, uh... T- I, in front of my TGO members live, in two and a half weeks, we made $2.5 million worth of profitable trades. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. So, I bring that up because, you know, my dad, God bless his heart, um, you know, h- he, he always would instill in me, "It ain't about the money," right?

[35:57] Speaker 2: Or, "You don't," you know, "You can't take it with you, Matthew," he'd remind me often. Um, you know, "You're, you're not a pharaoh. They're not gonna put the, put all the money in your casket." So, around that time-

[36:08] Speaker 1: "They're not going to bury it with you," yeah.

[36:10] Speaker 2: Yeah. So, you know, when I went to Chicago... So, I left my fighter squadron in Fort Worth. Uh, and the ethos of a fighter squadron is you trust the men and women in that organization with your life, or, or they're not-

[36:23] Speaker 1: Absolutely.

[36:23] Speaker 2: ... a part of that organization anymore, right? They're gone. And I went up to Chicago...... where the atmosphere was, I couldn't trust somebody to watch my wallet, y- you know, when I went to the bathroom for five minutes. Uh, it was just a disgusting environment. I mean, these people, some of these people would push their own mother in front of a bus for, for a, for a dollar. So I, I was pretty lost in Chicago, man. So, you know, living in Fort Worth with all my fight- fighter squadron buddies, we- I had infrastructure, I had support. And then I went up to Chicago and just completely disconnected from my mission and, and my ethos and my- I felt l- I, I had to take a shower, like, 10 times a day. It was g- gross. So I was hurting. I hit the booze, I started dabbling in drugs and just trying to numb, uh, numb all of it.

[37:16] Speaker 2: And, uh-

[37:17] Speaker 1: So you're not flying at this point?

[37:19] Speaker 2: No, no. I, the last time I had flown was 2006. The last time I had flown was in the Hornets.

[37:27] Speaker 1: And you're facing this from a desk? Yeah.

[37:27] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so I'm numb to something-

[37:29] Speaker 1: And that's tough. That's a big adjustment. I remember going through that when, when I got out. Tha- that was hard. I mean, it's kind of, like-

[37:36] Speaker 2: Right.

[37:37] Speaker 1: ... part of your identity.

[37:38] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It, it was a large incredible part of, of who I was. And, you know, it, it... And, and then I jumped into just a different just career all together with different people. So that was, that was tough. So all that was going on in the background. And then right around that time in 2020, uh, you know, in, in 15 years of flying fighters, I lost 16 brothers. Um-

[38:05] Speaker 1: That's scary.

[38:05] Speaker 2: Not one combat loss. It was mechanical failure, stupidity, you know, pilot error, weather, um, and all of those issues sprinkled around. Not one combat loss. But just because they weren't combat losses doesn't make it any easier, right? I still lost 16, you know, best friends, acquaintances, and, and in-betweens. It was, it was brutal.

[38:29] Speaker 1: I understand. I've lost, I've lost seven I know of. I, I kinda understand that one.

[38:32] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[38:33] Speaker 1: Same thing. Not combat. Everything from situational awareness to, to ..........................

[38:39] Speaker 2: Yep. And then in addition to the 16, I lost three F18 brothers to suicide. Uh-

[38:47] Speaker 1: Those are the, those feel terrible.

[38:48] Speaker 2: And one was my groundsman. Yeah. You know, Captain Eric Swenson, man. He, he flew Hornets in the Marine Corps. He and I got winged together in Kingsville. I mean, he was just... He had five kids and, and just decided to check out. So around that time in 2020, I looked at my wife and I said, "We just made all this money. I, you know, I like having a nice house and a nice car, but w- w- let's do something about veteran suicide." Because back then I think the number was, you know, maybe Uncle Sam was using, was 17 to 20 veterans take their own lives every day. And I'm like, "You know what, man? That's just, that's obscene. That sounds like a mass shooting on a daily basis in the veteran community." Um, so that's when I, I said, "You know what? Let's start a foundation. Let's, let's do something about veteran suicide." So I started, uh, a foundation called the Top Gun Fighter Foundation. Uh, and I had no idea what I was gonna do to, uh, to end veteran suicide. You know, what do you do?

[39:49] Speaker 2: How do you keep somebody from killing themselves? You know, buy a house, write a resume, buy a suit? We were... I was clueless. So around that time, a buddy of mine said, "Hey, there's a group of Navy SEALs and special warfare guys that go down to Mexico and they do psychedelic assisted therapy to heal their, their trauma and their traumatic brain injuries and stuff, you know. And there's a really cool group going in a couple weeks. Do, do you wanna go?" And I said, "Man, go to Mexico and do drugs with some Navy SEALs? That sounds like a great weekend. Sign me up." (laughs) Um, but I had absolutely no clue what I was in for. Um, so I went down, I, I, I went to San Diego and the, the cool group was, the first cool guy was Marcus Luttrell. So everybody should know who Marcus Luttrell is.

[40:43] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[40:43] Speaker 2: He's the Lone Survivor. You know, wrote the book Lone Survivor. And then obviously Mark Wahlberg played him in the movie, Lone Survivor. So me, Marcus, and then JT, Jared Taylor, he's one of the founders of Black Rifle Coffee. Uh-

[40:58] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[40:58] Speaker 2: Another-

[40:58] Speaker 1: Oh, I know those guys, uh, 'cause I've done a lot of work with Bass Pro Shop.

[41:03] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So me, JT, Marcus-

[41:06] Speaker 1: Sure, sure, guys, those guys.

[41:08] Speaker 2: Uh, JJ, who was another Navy SEAL veteran, and then an NFL veteran, his name's Robert Gallery. He was an All-American at Iowa, and then played, I think, for the Raiders for, like, eight years. And he was in a, he was in a pretty bad place. So five of us met in, uh, San Diego. You know, didn't know each other from a hole in the wall. And by the time we got back to San Diego on Monday, we were best friends for life and completely healed. I mean, we went down to a place called The Mission Within just south of San Diego, because if you do what I'm talking about in San Diego, you're a criminal. It's a felony. If you do it half an hour south of San Diego or an hour, it'll save and change your life. Uh, go figure.

[41:57] Speaker 1: Good, good.

[41:57] Speaker 2: So-

[41:58] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[41:59] Speaker 2: Yeah, we sat with a medicine called Ibogaine, which is the most powerful, uh, psychedelic on the planet. Um, uh, you know, we don't have enough time for me to fully dig into the journey, but suffice it to say it was-

[42:11] Speaker 1: You have all the time you want, Wiz. I mean, one of the beauties-

[42:14] Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Well-

[42:15] Speaker 1: ... of XM Radio is we can just go. So it's whatever you're-

[42:18] Speaker 2: Yeah. True.

[42:18] Speaker 1: ... you have available, I've got available.

[42:21] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[42:22] Speaker 1: And I would-

[42:23] Speaker 2: Also, yeah.

[42:23] Speaker 1: ... like to hear more of your story, like, about your sister and everything. So whatever you feel like sharing.

[42:27] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I, I, we, we didn't talk about it yet, but before...... you know, all the military trauma, I had some pretty significant childhood trauma. I lost a sister to a drunk driver when she was 19. She was a freshman at Villanova University, uh, where my brother, my older brother, and my other sister were going. So, I had three sisters and a brother at Villanova, and they all, uh, went to a fraternity party. And my brother and my sister Marilyn said, "Hey, we're gonna head back to campus. You know, do you want to come with us, Monica?" And she said, "No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ride with these folks." And you know, that- that- that, that made all the difference 'cause she got hit by a drunk driver. She was thrown from the car and it broke her neck. Um, which is just an absolute... I was getting... I was going into high school, getting ready to go into high school, which is a tough time for a young man anyway, let alone, you know, the...

[43:24] Speaker 2: Uh, that was just the hand grenade. My sister, Monica, was the middle, she was the middle, kind of the middle child of our clan. You know, we were a typical Irish Catholic family from South Jersey, South Philadelphia. Stereotypical, man. I was an altar boy and just the whole nine yards. It- it- you didn't get more Catholic than us. And then, uh, my sister died and I just, I was done. I lost my faith. Very tough high school years for me 'cause I lost my parents too, technically, man. My, uh, you know, my dad... Uh, I- I- I played sports in high school, so I'd miss the bus after school and my dad would usually pick me up. And in between, St. Augustine Prep and our home, uh, was the cemetery. And my dad, he pulled in there every day and he got out of the car every day, and he cried at her, uh, grave every day. It was, it was tough. And I remember years later when I had kids and I remember sitting next to my dad as we're watching our kids, my- my kids play and I...

[44:28] Speaker 2: He knew what I was talking about because I looked at him and I just said, "Dad, how- how did you do it?" And he looked at me and he said, "I had you. Um, I had you." And he said, "When they lowered Monica into the ground, I wanted to jump in there with her, but I, but I had you." Um

[44:48] Speaker 1: That's something nobody should ever have to go through.

[44:49] Speaker 2: So, he... Yeah, he, he... Ever since he died, he, he... I- I- I could not remember him being happy again, uh, or smiling or- or anything like that. I bring that up because on the medicine, uh, and it's not a hallucination, it's not you're tripping. Ibogaine is actually a waking dream. You're wide awake. I mean, you have eye shades on. You lift your eye shades up and look around the room. There's Marcus, there's some nurses. All right, eye shades back on. It's a movie. It is a- i- i- it's a movie. But at one point, uh, you know, yeah, my, my sister Monica came to me and, uh, she was perfect. She was angelic and she was just, she was perfect and I was at peace.

[45:33] Speaker 2: Uh-

[45:33] Speaker 1: What

[45:33] Speaker 4: You know, you don't think-

[45:33] Speaker 2: ... and then my dad... Well, uh, yeah. And- and my dad died, uh, years later. And we all, all of us agree, he died of a broken heart. He died at 65 getting on a treadmill in the garage, and he was dead before he hit the ground. So, uh, we- we all said he- he died of a broken heart. So, Monica was with me, and then all of a sudden, my father, uh, was there as well with Monica and he was smiling. And I hadn't seen him smile since I was a kid, uh, since before Monica died. And, uh, it was a peace that I hadn't felt in decades. And then they, they started to, uh, I guess I could say dissolve or kind of go away. And I... It was a horror. I was ter- I was screaming at, I was yelling at them not to leave me again. But they... The- and then they came back and they smiled at me again. Uh, and then they started to kind of drift away again, and then I followed them this time. I watched. And then my- they went into... Monica went into my daughter.

[46:41] Speaker 2: They both went into the trees, and the sun, and the- and the wind. They just, they went every... They went into me, they went everywhere. And they left me with this feeling of, they never left. They're here right now. They're, they- they've been here this entire time. Um, and I was healed. It absolutely healed me. Um, and ibogaine is a system reset. I was a drinker. I don't know if you can be a good drinker, but I was a bad drinker. And I couldn't even... Eight months, eight months after the ibogaine, I couldn't even smell alcohol. It made me retch. Or look at, if I looked at alcohol, pee, like a bottle of vodka would make me want to dry heave. Um, now, I can, you know, have a glass of red wine with my steak or some pasta if I want to. Um, but old Wiz, a glass of wine was a bottle or maybe two or three. But that guy's dead. It just doesn't even... Alcohol has zero, uh, impact in my life. So, it completely destroyed alcohol in my life.

[47:49] Speaker 2: Um, but it was, it was without a doubt the most spiritual and life-saving and changing, uh, experience of my life. Uh, I- I... When I got home, I had to, uh, learn a new SAT word, ineffable. And ineffable means you can't put something into words. So, it... You know, sometimes I- I hesitate to talk about this experience because it just doesn't... All the words that I'm saying right now are failing to even come close to describing everything I experienced. Um, couple days later, uh, we did, uh, a medicine called 5-MeO-DMT. Uh, and I- I physically flipped in the bed. I can't remember as a child...... successfully flipping into the pool. Uh, maybe tried once or twice and always landed on my back. But as a 52-year-old former fighter pilot sitting on a mattress in Mexico, I absolutely flipped in the bed, um, which was just (laughs) absolutely insane. The Ibogaine was a 12 to 14-hour experience, whereas 5-MeO-DMT is a 10, you know, 10 to 15-minute experience.

[49:02] Speaker 2: But don't let the time, uh, fool you, because that was a more intense experience than the Ibogaine. Um, but I got home and I, I hugged my wife and I said, "This is how we're going to end veteran suicide." So, I changed the name 'cause Top Gun Fighter Foundation sounded a little too, uh, you know, top, uh, fighter pilot, Maverick-ish. So I said, "You know what? Let's go big tent." So we changed the name and made it the No Fallen Heroes Foundation. So, we provide healing grants to veterans, first responders, and their families. Why first responders?

[49:42] Speaker 2: Well, a lot of guys and gals-

[49:45] Speaker 1: Their mission.

[49:45] Speaker 2: ... get off... Yeah. Well, they get ou- ... W- Well, a lot of them are veterans, right? A lot of them-

[49:50] Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of them are veterans, yeah.

[49:50] Speaker 2: ... take off their ... Yeah, a lot of them take off that uniform, but they don't take off the trauma. And they go home and they become a state trooper or sheriff or fireman or EMT. They become a first responder. They just put on a different uniform. Um, you know, I have a buddy down here in South Florida. He's a 20-year Marine, and he went to, uh, fire rescue down in Coral Gables and he said, "Wiz, my, my trauma as a Marine i- it pales in comparison to what I saw as a first responder. What people can do to children and to another human." He's like ... So, yeah. So, veteran first responders and family members, because family members serve too.

[50:33] Speaker 2: Especially-

[50:34] Speaker 1: No question about it. Yeah.

[50:34] Speaker 2: ... Gold Star, you know, Gold Star wives, parents, children. Um, they serve too. Um, so we help, uh, those three, those three groups. And over the past-

[50:46] Speaker 1: And I think that's really cool that it includes those. I mean, my, my dad was a 27-year Detroit vice cop.

[50:54] Speaker 2: Mm.

[50:55] Speaker 1: Navy veteran from World War II. That was where I ... And it was interesting. He toured Marshall Islands, South Pacific, over towards Tokyo, and never talked about it a lot. So, there was obviously things. He just ... It was not something he ever talked about. The little brief stories obviously made an impact on him.

[51:17] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[51:17] Speaker 1: 27-year veteran.

[51:19] Speaker 2: Exactly.

[51:19] Speaker 1: And it was funny, just what you said, the trauma. You know, he was tough. He wa- he was tough on us. And I remember my mom-

[51:28] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[51:28] Speaker 1: ... saying what really changed him was he had a drunk driving call that killed a family of four. And there was-

[51:39] Speaker 2: Oh, God.

[51:39] Speaker 1: ... two young twin kids in the back seat. And she said, "He was never the same from that point on."

[51:46] Speaker 2: He was a sad... Yeah.

[51:48] Speaker 1: And so, I understand firsthand what you're talking about. And you're absolutely right. Family serves with them, and you, you live a little bit of it, not understanding completely until you're older-

[52:00] Speaker 2: Right.

[52:01] Speaker 1: ... what they really are dealing with.

[52:03] Speaker 2: That's exactly right. Ah, that's brutal, man. Yeah. Yeah. A- and trauma is trauma. I mean, th- i- if something's hurting you, you know, you, you deserve to heal. That's one of the, the things I stress to people, is don't trauma shame yourself, or trauma grade, right? I remember, you know, when I heard who I'd be going to Mexico with, like, I'm like, "Marcus Luttrell? I, I, I don't deserve to sit in the ro- same room with that guy. I was up at 30,000, 40,000 feet doing operational fly zone missions, man. As this guy loses his three buddies. My trauma's not, you know, significant." No, no, no, no. You gotta, you gotta stop that. Trauma is trauma. And, and don't ... A- and as a matter of fact, a- another reason we have a big tent at No Fallen Heroes is for this reason. I got back and I started calling some, you know, some of my fighter brothers and sisters.

[52:55] Speaker 2: And I remember talking to a couple of the ladies, and they said, "Wow, Wiz, you know, we love to heal, uh, our trauma." And I'm like, "Oh, okay. Well, here's what we do and this is how it works." And both of them both said, "Well, yeah, you know, it, it's not from combat. It's from rape and sexual assault."

[53:16] Speaker 1: Oh my God.

[53:16] Speaker 2: And I was blown away, man. So, I kicked over this rock, and it turns out there's a lot of, uh, what they call MST, military sexual trauma. So, there are women and, unfortunately, men. There are women and men who never even saw the enemy or got shot at, but they suffered significant trauma. I mean, you expect the enemy to shoot at you or try and kill you or harm you. You don't expect your squadron mate to do it, right?

[53:50] Speaker 2: So-

[53:50] Speaker 1: Right.

[53:50] Speaker 2: ... you know, in, in the past couple years, we've given healing grants to some women who have experienced MST, and they were never in combat, but they still suffered horrific trauma and, and deserve to heal. So, that's why we kind of went big tent at No Fallen Heroes, 'cause there's a couple other foundations. There's one that just helps Navy SEALS with the medicine. There's another who just helps combat vets. And I'm like, "Well, I'm not either of those." Uh, and, and people, people need to heal. Uh, especially the family members. I mean, my wife, God bless her, 99.9% of her trauma is me induced. (laughs) So, uh... And, and I want to cover this, because it's important to, to talk about. Um, when I got home, I, I was...... is probably the guy she met in college. Maybe not even that guy. I mean, she didn't even know me when I was this guy. Happy, you know, just lighter. She's like, "Wow, this is a ... Y- you know, you are a completely different human being.

[54:56] Speaker 2: I mean, you're still Matt, but holy crap." So, there was a little bit of tension, because, like, for the first 30 days, I'm like, "Let's go, Susie. Get up. This is great. Life is great. The world's great. I love you. Everything's, you know, sunshine and lollipops." And she's kind of like, "Well," you know, "Yay for you." (laughs) You know, "What about, kinda, w- what about me?" Um, so, you know, I- I- I'm like ... A- and- and, you know, about two months later she's like, "You know what? Maybe we sh- I should go sit with the medicine." So she went down to the same place, The Mission Within, and, uh, she went with a couple wives. I think one of them might've been a Gold Star wife. And, uh, she sat with psilocybin and also the 5-MeO-DMT, and she came back, and I'll tell you, man, we- we've never been a better couple. We've never been better parents and- and- and better humans. So, uh, I- I'm so glad she went and sat with the medicine too.

[55:55] Speaker 2: So she also-

[55:55] Speaker 1: That's amazing.

[55:55] Speaker 2: ... works with, yeah, our female grant recipients. So, it- it's critical-

[56:00] Speaker 1: And that's really a cool story too. I mean, you don't see ... You know, y- you hear about the- the unfortunate endings of divorce and the trouble with ... I mean, I know-

[56:10] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[56:10] Speaker 1: ... and you probably the same thing, I- I lost count of, you know, the guys that- that I was in NAVCAD with that are divorced. I don't think-

[56:19] Speaker 2: Uh-huh.

[56:20] Speaker 1: You know? It was like, you know, unfor- it's just kind of unfortunate. But, so to hear a positive-

[56:25] Speaker 2: Correct.

[56:25] Speaker 1: ... is- is great. I mean, it's like, it, that-

[56:28] Speaker 2: Yep.

[56:28] Speaker 1: That's a success in itself and, and I haven't met your wife, but I will say, I've never seen her without a smile on her face.

[56:36] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[56:37] Speaker 1: You know? She seems like-

[56:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, she's, uh-

[56:38] Speaker 1: Uh, you too, but I mean, she- she just seems like she's always happy.

[56:44] Speaker 2: She's a, she's a ray of sunshine, and if- if she is having a bad day, it's- it's she doesn't let me see it. So, she is definitely a, uh, a gift from God, and, uh, I'm, I- I am ... Uh, she stuck through me, w- w- she stuck with me through all- all the bad. So she, uh, she's an incredible human being. But the medicine really kinda tightened up, uh, you know, our- our relationship-

[57:10] Speaker 1: Sure.

[57:10] Speaker 2: ... and- and- and who we were. It- it just, it knocked off decades of trauma. And it's so funny, you know, five years ago, me, if I heard me talking like this, I- I'd kick my own ass. I just d- you know? But that guy died-

[57:23] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[57:23] Speaker 2: ... on- on a mattress on a floor of a home in- in- in Mexico. Uh, it's- it's just so hard. I- I can step outside of me and listen to me for a second and go, "There's no way this a- happened in 12 to 14 hours." It absolutely did. And I have over, I think by now, 50 grant recipients of No Fallen Heroes. Knock on wood, we haven't had one person come home and go, "That was a complete waste of time," or, "That sucked," or, "I'm worse." Not a single one. As a matter of fact, I mean, I try and go on every retreat, but there's been a couple I couldn't make it to, and each one of those retreats I didn't go to, I got texts, each one , a couple of them, "Whiz, I don't want to kill myself anymore." I mean, you can't even, you can't even ... Y- y- you can't put a dollar on that. You ca- I- I can't even express the feeling when you get a text like that, like, "My brother ... Oh, my God, I don't want to kill myself anymore. God is great." You know?

[58:24] Speaker 2: "I'm- I'm back." I'm like, "Oh, man, this is fantastic." So, it- it really is-

[58:29] Speaker 1: And what's amazing is you don't hear those with any other treatments. And I'm not trying to bash anything. I'm not- I'm not a doctor. I don't advocate for anything, but I'm just saying, we don't hear these success stories-

[58:40] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[58:40] Speaker 1: ... with the other forms of treatment, you know, where they medicate people-

[58:44] Speaker 2: Right.

[58:44] Speaker 1: ... or the antidepressants, and it generally ... And- and there isn't ... I don't understand it obviously like you do, but, I mean, the one thing I do understand, 'cause unfortunately I've lost some, you know, friends and colleagues to the same thing, it's- it's not a, you know, it's not a choice. It- it's very real-

[59:04] Speaker 2: Mm-mm.

[59:04] Speaker 1: ... and there- there's no running from it when, you know, when you feel like that, that- that's hard to get away from.

[59:12] Speaker 2: Right.

[59:13] Speaker 1: That's ... You know, so-

[59:14] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[59:14] Speaker 1: I mean, to have something that not only fixes it, but fixes it in one treatment rather than-

[59:21] Speaker 2: Correct.

[59:21] Speaker 1: ... decades of narcotics is amazing.

[59:25] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Well, one of the-

[59:27] Speaker 1: And the-

[59:27] Speaker 2: One of the guys, eh, we had a SEAL who was on 15 medications, five to wake up, five for lunch, five to go to bed, and he hasn't taken a medication since. I've seen-

[59:39] Speaker 1: Wow.

[59:39] Speaker 2: ... brain scans, I've seen brain scans of team guys with, you know ... And- and the brain scans look dark, or gray, or, "What's that black spot over there?" Months after the medicine, completely white. The- the neuroplasticity of these medicines can regrow dead neural pathways and create new ones that you didn't have. Um, so it's just, it- it's incredible. It's not a magic pill or anything like that. But, to your point, what we're currently doing isn't working. So, a little while ago, I said, "Hey, in 2020, when I started all this stuff, the number that Uncle Sam gave us was 17." Well, a couple small community colleges a year and a half ago, Alabama and Duke, these two institutions dug into the veteran suicide numbers, and they came out with a report that said the number is closer to 44.

[01:00:39] Speaker 1: Per- percentage, yeah.

[01:00:40] Speaker 2: And I- I just ... It's insane.So could you ima- uh, I hate even talking like this, but could you imagine if 44 children, not once a year, were killed in a school shooting?

[01:00:54] Speaker 1: That's insane.

[01:00:54] Speaker 2: If 44 kids were being shot every day in schools? Even the pro-gun nuts would, would freak out, right? We would do something.

[01:01:01] Speaker 1: Absolutely.

[01:01:02] Speaker 2: But ch- 44 veterans a day, y- you know, the, it, the, the Biden administration didn't have a press conference, did they, and say, "Hey, guess what we learned today? The numbers actually double, uh, what we th-" You didn't hear a peep. You didn't hear a word, and we just kinda keep going o- on our way here. So clearly, what we're doing is not working. I, I, I tell people that radical trauma might need radical healing, and this could be considered radical healing. There's so many different healing modalities. You can meditate, do hot yoga, walk on the beach, climb a mountain in Nepal. There are so many different ways to heal, but this should be included as, as one of them.

[01:01:45] Speaker 2: But, you know-

[01:01:46] Speaker 1: And sometimes-

[01:01:47] Speaker 2: ... to be honest.

[01:01:47] Speaker 1: ... the severity requires, like you say, a radical ... You know, you don't, y- people don't understand unless they've been there, when you get to that level, you know, where, like, somebody says, you know, "I'm thinking this is the first time I ever thought about killing myself." It, most people don't understand that, you know, you hear these people all the time that are like, "Oh, just, you know, just, you gotta, you gotta stop thinking like that."

[01:02:09] Speaker 2: Right.

[01:02:09] Speaker 1: That's, that's like saying, you know, "Just breathe through your left nostril." It's not that easy.

[01:02:15] Speaker 2: Exactly.

[01:02:16] Speaker 1: You know?

[01:02:16] Speaker 2: Right. Yeah.

[01:02:16] Speaker 1: I mean, there's more to it than that. There, there's something, uh, you know, you've got damage, you've got trauma, and until that-

[01:02:23] Speaker 2: Right.

[01:02:24] Speaker 1: ... gets handled, it doesn't just go away. So-

[01:02:27] Speaker 2: Correct. Well, a- and, and the-

[01:02:28] Speaker 1: ... you know, in, in most of the treatments here just mask it.

[01:02:32] Speaker 2: Correct. And, and the sad part about, uh, the high number of veteran suicides is that it all, it's, it's kind of, empowering's a, uh, a bad word, but if veterans are on the edge, they kind of look around and go, "Well, shit, there's a lot of other guys offing themselves, so I guess it's okay." You know? So, you know, if veteran suicide was really low, it, it might self-reinforce that it's low, but the fact that it's high actually gives air cover to some folks who are close to checking out.

[01:03:01] Speaker 2: Um-

[01:03:02] Speaker 1: Mo, one of the things that I've heard you say, and I've seen this myself, you, you've said this and I agree, the military, and I don't care what branch you're in, they do an amazing job of trainings on the front end. They don't do a great job of reintegrating you to society. When it gets to the end, it's kind of a slap on the back and, you know, "Hey, thanks a lot. Here's a hat and a hoodie." Y- you know, it's just kind of like you're out the door.

[01:03:29] Speaker 2: Right.

[01:03:29] Speaker 1: And, and, as you know, now, kind of like what you were talking about earlier, like when you went to Chicago, you go from this camaraderie, this brotherhood, this absolute I've got your back mentality, and people you trust with your life because you're trained that way, to ... and, and a system that you understand, a culture, to the outside world that is, um, you know, unpredictable. And, and at times for some, especially if a guy's been in for a while and, uh, you know, like retirement age, he comes out and it's like th- none of this makes sense. There's no order here.

[01:04:09] Speaker 2: Right.

[01:04:09] Speaker 1: There's no rhyme or reason. I can't, you know, there is no algorithm that I can put together. And it's ... and I'm not an expert, but it just seems like that is where some of this stems from. Like these guys, you know, they've got trauma, but then they also are just kind of shoved out the door.

[01:04:28] Speaker 2: Correct. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The, the, the reintegration is s- seriously lacking. But they, they got what they needed, right? They got their pound of flesh, they chew you up, and then they spit you out. And they, uh, you know, they hand you off-

[01:04:41] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:04:42] Speaker 2: ... to a, to a broken VA system. Uh, you know, I've been in DC a couple times to talk, you know, I'll call them lawmakers, I'm not gonna call them leaders because they're not leading. But I've talked to some lawmakers and I'm like, "Hey, do you not realize that the veteran suicide issue and the way you treat veterans is a national security issue? You guys can't hit your recruiting goals. Why? The number one source of recruits is veterans telling their kids to join."

[01:05:12] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:05:12] Speaker 2: I have ... Well, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm one for one. My, my middle son Jack is like, "You know what, dad? You're right. I'm not going in." My oldest son, not listening to me, he's, he's Russian, uh, an air guard squadron up in Jacksonville. He, he wants to be a fighter pilot like his old man, but I know hundreds, probably thousands of veterans, I think I can count on one hand the number of veterans who are telling their kids to go in. The exact opposite is going on. Every ve- almost every veteran I know is steering their kids away from serving. So it's a national security issue. Uh, and, and, and they're just so shortsighted that they don't see it, right?

[01:05:51] Speaker 2: When you, when you lose-

[01:05:52] Speaker 1: And it isn't that we don't support ... I mean, uh, all, all of us support all the branches. And as we've all been taught, you respect the office even if you're not able to respect the person.

[01:06:06] Speaker 2: Correct.

[01:06:07] Speaker 1: But you-

[01:06:07] Speaker 2: Absolutely.

[01:06:08] Speaker 1: But it, so it, it ... I don't want people to think it's a lack of patriotism, because it's not. It, it's, it's how things are run and you, and you're just having a knot in your stomach about your kids being in this.

[01:06:21] Speaker 2: Yeah. Correct. No. Well, and, and, you know, kinda I also look at what's going on around the world. I mean, we got troops sitting on-

[01:06:28] Speaker 1: Absolutely.

[01:06:29] Speaker 2: ... bases in Jordan and Iraq and we're taking punches. We have ships in the Red Sea that are getting shot at. We're, we're just taking punches and we're not delivering them. I don't want my kids sitting in some tent in Jordan getting killed, uh, by, you know, Iranian proxy forces that we're not attacking back.... uh, it's just, it's maddening to me. Um, but, y- you know, like I said, man, it's a machine. It's a ... The military industrial complex. We have nothing but fail... We haven't won a war since World War II.

[01:06:58] Speaker 2: I mean, people like to correct me and say, "Desert Storm." I'm like, "How's Iraq look now?"

[01:07:03] Speaker 1: (laughs) Yeah, pretty-

[01:07:03] Speaker 2: We might have won that little, that little quick one. You know, the last two-

[01:07:06] Speaker 1: They didn't let us finish the job.

[01:07:07] Speaker 2: ... really solid ge- Yeah. Well, I mean, the o- the last two solid generals we had were Schwarzkopf and, and Powell. McChrystal-

[01:07:15] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:07:15] Speaker 2: ... a- all these other guys are liars. They sat there for two decades and swore in front of Congress, said, "Oh, everything's great in Afghanistan and Iraq." And then look at where we are. But they don't care. They get their cushy retirement, and there's a revolving door between the Pentagon and the defense contractors. (laughs)

[01:07:32] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:07:32] Speaker 2: They go right next door and make a couple million bucks a year as a Raytheon consultant.

[01:07:36] Speaker 1: They pull their salary. Yeah, exactly.

[01:07:37] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And, and while as a staff sergeant, you can't even get seen at, at a VA hospital as these clowns are, are making money. So, you know, that, that's why a lot of people are like, "Whiz, why are these medicine ... If these are so incredibly life-saving and changing, why are they illegal?" Well, answer your own question, man. Follow the money. You think Big Pharma wants any of this? (laughs) There's, there is no way on God's green Earth Big Pharma is gonna, is gonna put up with this. Or unfortunately, 'cause there's a, you know, there's a lot of psychedelic publicly traded psychedelic companies that are doing research and getting these medicines ready for FDA approval. The, you know, if you're the CEO of Pfizer sitting in your headquarters smoking a cigar and reading the Wall Street Journal, you're just gonna swoop in with a checkbook and scoop all these things up, uh, because there is no money in healing, right? They're gonna have to figure something out.

[01:08:30] Speaker 2: But I always remind people that God is a smart pharmacologist. You know, you can't patent a root or a fungus and you can't trademark a toad. So, you know, God put all of these things on this planet out in nature for us to be able to heal. So I, I do have faith that, you know, healing is free, but if, if Big Pharma gets their tentacles in this, it's, it's gonna be pretty ugly. I mean, I follow-

[01:08:54] Speaker 1: Well, it's similar to like cancer treatment. I mean, you look at MD Anderson in Houston, and I know you're familiar with them and, you know-

[01:09:01] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:01] Speaker 1: ... I've seen this firsthand. So, you know, I worked, I worked a lot in marketing with horse racing, automotive racing, aviation, and you know, there was a really famous racehorse that developed cancer, and there was a company similar to MD Anderson, came up, started treating it, you know, in the way they do with the cells, with a stem cell, n- nothing invasive, no chemo, no nothing. It vanished. And I said, "So if you know this technology exists, how come this isn't going further?" And the doctor said, he said, "It's, it's the chemo companies." He said, "You can't-"

[01:09:40] Speaker 2: Sure.

[01:09:40] Speaker 1: "... fight them. They're too powerful."

[01:09:42] Speaker 2: Correct. Yep. Well, it's, it's, man, it's, it's depressing. I, I remember I was in ... You know, this congressman, and shall remain nameless, but I was in DC and behind closed doors, this congressman said, "Whiz, I love what you're doing. You know, keep doing what you're doing. But you're gonna have a problem with the, you know, the Big Pharma and tobacco and alcohol folks." And I looked at that guy and I'm like, "W- what do you mean I'm gonna have a problem? Isn't that your job? What are you doing?" (laughs) You know. Um, it, it, it's ugly.

[01:10:14] Speaker 2: It, it's-

[01:10:14] Speaker 1: Can't dirty my hands with that.

[01:10:15] Speaker 2: You know. Oh, it, it, it was awful. Uh, well, and the same guy ... You ready for this? I was, I was in hi- uh, this office with Julianna Mercer, brilliant lady, former Marine, healed with the medicine, and I remember hitting this guy with like, the suicide numbers and everything like that. And he just, you know, he just kind of was like ... I could tell he, he almost really didn't care about the suicide numbers, and Julianna and I were both like, looking at each other, and then she rolls in with the numbers. She goes, "Well, um ..." And I forget. I'm, I'm speaking extramarineously 'cause I should know the numbers, but I don't. But she's like, "You know what? The, the DOD or the, the VA spends, let's just say, $10 billion a year on PTSD, you know, treatments and medications. You know, if we, you, you know, did this MDMA therapy, you could potentially save that money." That's when the guy started paying attention.

[01:11:12] Speaker 2: He's like-

[01:11:13] Speaker 1: Sure.

[01:11:13] Speaker 2: ... "All right. Well, yeah. Now, now you're talking. Uh, what else?" And she's like, "Oh my God." So she starts rippling off money. And then I, I, I kid you not, man. You ready for this? After he was kind of bought in with the, "Oh, man. This could save a lot of money," you know what this guy said? He said, "Well, and if we heal these veterans of their PTSD, we won't have to pay them disability." And I swear to God, man, I almost knocked that guy out.

[01:11:46] Speaker 2: I was-

[01:11:47] Speaker 1: But it's true.

[01:11:47] Speaker 2: Wh-

[01:11:47] Speaker 1: I mean, it's funny. Chris Rock, the comedian, said, "If you wanna solve anything that has anything to do with medicine in this country, follow the money." They will never-

[01:11:58] Speaker 2: Yep.

[01:11:58] Speaker 1: ... figure out a way to cure it. They want to figure out a way to treat it. But if you can-

[01:12:02] Speaker 2: I looked at this guy, man. I said-

[01:12:04] Speaker 1: Crazy.

[01:12:05] Speaker 2: Y- y- y- yeah. I, I, I looked at him, I go, "Let me get this straight. This veteran's suffering from PTSD for all these years for serving his country. We get him healed with some MDMA. Now you're gonna take his disability payments, the only money, the only income that you're gonna take is three grand a month, and now he's homeless and gonna be broke and doesn't have a job." (laughs) "So you're gonna give him PTSD again?"

[01:12:28] Speaker 1: Yeah. It's awful.

[01:12:28] Speaker 2: Uh, oh, it's, it's, it's awful, man. It, I, I was ... L- uh, like I said, going to, going to DC is like going to Chicago for me. It's scuzzy people who are just separated from source and God and, and truth. And I could not ... I, I, I haven't been back to DC after that one visit, 'cause I'm like, "You know what? I'm done." I am convinced this is a We The People moment. This is not going to come-... from them down. It's going to come from us up. We're just going to have to, to keep the groundswell going, because, you know, these guys are not ... This ain't coming from them.

[01:13:04] Speaker 2: I'm not writing the checks big enough to compete-

[01:13:05] Speaker 1: And that's why it's so important what you do. I mean, that's why No Fallen Heroes, to me ... That's why part of the reason I wanted to have you on. I mean, part of the reason is I really like what you do and I think you have an amazing story. But, you know, I really believe in No Fallen Heroes, and I really think this is something-

[01:13:20] Speaker 2: I appreciate that.

[01:13:21] Speaker 1: ... that more people need to know about.

[01:13:23] Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and it's awareness, you know, just, you know, doing your show and, and getting the word out there, it, it helps raise awareness. Because we're, we're s- we're getting there, right? Because, you know, when wa- when we got back from, uh, Mexico, Marcus, uh, you know, ****** and Luttrell. So Morgan and Marcus are both Navy SEALs. I mean, they're twins. It looks like their mom hiccuped, you know, when she was pregnant.

[01:13:48] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[01:13:48] Speaker 2: Um, so-

[01:13:49] Speaker 1: Just letting us know.

[01:13:51] Speaker 2: Marcus got home, and, uh, look at you. So Morgan went down to Mexico. As he tells it, "I got my ass kicked." (laughs) He's like, "I totally got my ass kicked." And he was healed. So shortly after him coming home and getting healed with the medicine, he's now congressman, uh, Luttrell (laughs) from, from Texas. So Dan Crenshaw, you know, Luttrell, Congressman Zinke. So all the Navy SEAL congressmen are on board and support legislation for this. Um, and, and it's so funny, because this is the only issue that I have seen in years that at a high level has bipi- partisan support. I remember seeing a news story like a year and a half ago. The headline said, "AOC and Dan Crenshaw." And I was like, "What's the next headline?

[01:14:49] Speaker 2: Killed each other?"

[01:14:50] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[01:14:50] Speaker 2: It said, "AOC and Dan Crenshaw Agree on Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy for Veterans." So it's interesting, because, you know, it, it's the Potomac Two-Step, where everybody publicly supports this type of stuff, and then you get behind closed doors and the checks clear from pharma-

[01:15:07] Speaker 1: And the lobbyists come in.

[01:15:09] Speaker 2: ... and alcohol, and, and tobacco.

[01:15:11] Speaker 1: And, you know, that's the sick part of this. It, you know ... You, you hesitate for a minute, and I'm ... For our listeners, we're with Matt Wizbuchle. He's a Top Gun graduate, founder of No Fallen Heroes. We're talking about-

[01:15:23] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:24] Speaker 1: ... the psychedelic treatments for veterans. And one of the things that is disturbing to me, even ... and we've brought it up several times, is ... You know, you hear the words tobacco and alcohol mentioned, you think, "Well, what, what would they have to do with this?" And those-

[01:15:38] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:38] Speaker 1: ... slime bags actually fight against things like this because it affects their profits.

[01:15:45] Speaker 2: Yep. That's exactly right.

[01:15:47] Speaker 1: And, and that is-

[01:15:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, man.

[01:15:48] Speaker 1: Like, I mean, there isn't a l- There's gotta be the darkest corner of Hell reserved for those guys. And I mean it-

[01:15:54] Speaker 2: Yup.

[01:15:54] Speaker 1: ... that we've seen this show multiple times. And, you know, I try to educate-

[01:15:58] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:15:58] Speaker 1: ... people on this every chance I get, that, you know, it's kind of like the vape sticks. I mean, those things were developed-

[01:16:04] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[01:16:04] Speaker 1: ... by Philip Morris. It's like you- you know, they're monsters.

[01:16:09] Speaker 2: Correct. It's, it's awful, man. I, I, I ... If you look at the harm scale, harm to yourself or harm to others, on the left side of the chart, the biggest harm to yourself and others drug is alcohol. Then it's like-

[01:16:24] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:16:24] Speaker 2: ... cocaine and meth, and then it's tobacco. (coughs) And then all the way on the right side of the harm to yourself and other scale, that doesn't even register a blip, is psilocybin and Ibogaine, these medicines that we're talking about. Completely separate ones by all means.

[01:16:40] Speaker 1: And you're talking about trace amounts, too. You're not talking about, like, crazy, you know ... You're not, you know ... a night in Vegas. It's ... You know, this is a very controlled-

[01:16:48] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:16:48] Speaker 1: ... process.

[01:16:50] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. This is ... Uh, it ... The, the, the ibogaine thing is not recreational at all, man. You are not taking Ibogaine and going out to a club. I didn't move-

[01:16:59] Speaker 1: And I think it's important people recognize that, you know. This is a, this is a treatment, and it's a treatment that's proven. It's a treatment that works.

[01:17:05] Speaker 2: Well, that's why we call it medicine, right? We don't call it ... And this is-

[01:17:07] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:17:07] Speaker 2: People are like, "Oh, you did drugs?" I'm like, "Nope, I did medicine, man." This is the only medi- the main medicine that I've taken in my life that actually healed me. I remember Marcus looking at Doc Martin, who, who runs The Mission Within down there. Like, before we left, he gave him a hug. He said, "You are the first doctor in my life that healed me." And this is a guy who's been through hell, and been through doctors and repeated surgeries. Um, so these are medicines. These are not drugs. And even when I was on Capitol Hill, there was a guy from Michigan, I forget his name, who kind of gave me the little bit of like, "Well, isn't this just like weed, or, or, or drugs? Isn't it fun?" And I gave him my five-minute quick s- speech. Anybody I talk to who thinks these are drugs and whatever, once I give them a little bit of a brief, they're completely changed. That's why ... You know, I, I got no problems with hippies. I love my hippie friends, and wearing their drug rugs and stuff.

[01:18:00] Speaker 2: But the last time we had this ... or tried to have a psychedelic renaissance, it was tough, because it was associated with the counterculture. You know?

[01:18:09] Speaker 1: Sure.

[01:18:09] Speaker 2: "Hey, I'm or- you know, I'm ordering you to fly around the world and go kill the yellow man that you've never met before." "Nah, I'm not gonna do that. I love the yellow man." "Well, why?" "Well, I took these mushrooms and they make me love people." "All right. Well, now those are illegal, and here's your rifle. Go kill the yellow man." Right? So Uncle Sam and Nixon, the War on Drugs, just slammed, and, and they obviously tied cannabis, uh, to African Americans. And w- what's his name? Uh, uh, I forget. It just flew out of my head. Nixon's, like, chief of staff, before he died, admitted that. He's like, "Oh, yeah. We used weed. We tied weed to African Americans, and, you know, the psychedelics to the antiwar people. It was all by design." So we have a lot to overcome. So maybe this psychedelic renaissance, so to speak-... if it's being led by a Navy SEAL like Marcus Luttrell, or a fighter pilot, or a first responder, or, or...

[01:19:03] Speaker 2: And I, I, you wouldn't believe it, or maybe you would believe it, how many active law enforcement officers and first responders are on our grant request list. Now-

[01:19:14] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[01:19:15] Speaker 2: ... 100%.

[01:19:15] Speaker 1: I would completely buy that-

[01:19:16] Speaker 2: 100% confidentiality. We've-

[01:19:17] Speaker 1: ... because most of those guys get it.

[01:19:19] Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I, I have state troopers, I got, we got... And I, we are a 1,000% confidential. Who you work for, your employer is between you and God, man. It's none of my business. But if you are a veteran, first responder, or family member, and you're looking to heal, I'm here to help you. I'm also going to tell you that we have active airline pilots who have sat with the medicine and they are completely healed human beings. And if that causes you pause, let me give you a choice.

[01:19:49] Speaker 1: Ah.

[01:19:49] Speaker 2: Would you rather your captain flying you from New York to LA continue to self-medicate, drink-

[01:19:57] Speaker 1: Stay at the hotel all the time.

[01:19:57] Speaker 2: ... or lie about y- y- their condition? Or would you rather them go take a week off and get their mind, body and soul right? I know what the answer everybody is gonna tell me is, right?

[01:20:09] Speaker 1: And I think the key is-

[01:20:09] Speaker 2: So we have a lot of airlines-

[01:20:10] Speaker 1: ... and I think this is where the education really needs to focus is that, you know, this is a treatment and it, and it's not a ongoing treatment. It's a treatment-

[01:20:21] Speaker 2: Right.

[01:20:21] Speaker 1: How many treatments do we have in medicine today that actually fixes something? Everything is based on-

[01:20:29] Speaker 2: You can be-

[01:20:29] Speaker 1: ... you coming back.

[01:20:31] Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah. You can be one and, you know, people ask me this often, you can be one and done. There are a lot of folks who are one and done. And then there are a lot of folks who say, "You know what? I'm gonna do an annual knock the rust off." And I think Marcus has gone back maybe once or twice, or JT, just to kind... It's a tune-up, but it's annually. It's not every week, every night, every six months. It's, you know, once, once in a-

[01:20:55] Speaker 1: Or three times a day-

[01:20:56] Speaker 2: ... couple of years.

[01:20:56] Speaker 1: ... like I was doing. Yeah.

[01:20:58] Speaker 2: Exactly. That's exactly right. So a lot of people can be one and done, but the gift of the medicine is that gift of self-awareness. Like old Liz, if I was... if I'm in it, if I'm getting some ice buildup on my wings or some rust buildup, I'd spiral down and be in not a good place. Drinking, drugs or making bad decisions. Now, before I spiral, I know I can stop that spiral. I can go knock the, knock the... I can go de-ice if needed with a little bit of a medicine journey.

[01:21:30] Speaker 2: And man, I treat these things-

[01:21:33] Speaker 1: That's it, man.

[01:21:33] Speaker 2: ... and, and we treat these things like a combat mission. This ain't just, "Hey, I'm going next weekend to, to sit with the medicine." This is weeks of preparation, diet, exercise, intentions. You need to, you need to go in with a briefing card of, "This is what I want to work on. These are my intentions. These are my questions for the medicine."

[01:21:53] Speaker 1: This is your plan.

[01:21:53] Speaker 2: So this is not some, you know, just, "Hey, I'll, you know, I'll meet you in Mexico." This is a well-thought-out, detailed, uh, process. And then, I didn't believe this ratio when I did the medicine. You know, I, I woke up that next morning in Mexico and I'm like, "I am healed. I am a new man. Thank God. God is great." And I remember my guide and Doc Martin looking at me and they're like, "Okay, Wiz. Let me tell you something. 5% is here. 5% is the medicine. 95% is the integration and what you do when you get home." And I remember going, "Nah, whatever." I think they're wrong. I go 199. I think 1% is the medicine and 99 is what we call the integration. Because you're going to come home a clean piece of paper. Everything will be scrubbed. If you fall back into old habits or routines or stuff, you're gonna... it's gonna be a challenge. But for those who, those who... A- and integration means, you know, one call a week with your integration coach. It means journaling. It means meditating.

[01:23:05] Speaker 2: It means exercising. If you come home and you integrate, you're, you're, you're, you're on the right path. But the integration is-

[01:23:13] Speaker 1: Well, it gives you new ways-

[01:23:14] Speaker 2: ... absolutely critical.

[01:23:14] Speaker 1: ... to cope with it. Yes, new ways to cope with it. The same problems-

[01:23:18] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[01:23:18] Speaker 1: ... will exist. But it's how-

[01:23:20] Speaker 2: Correct.

[01:23:20] Speaker 1: ... you cope and react to those problems that's going to be the difference between success and failure.

[01:23:24] Speaker 2: That's exactly right, man. I, I remember leaving Mexico and getting to the airport. The Uber driver missed like my drop-off point. Old me would have been yelling. New me just smiled. I'm like, "Is that right, man?" And I remember going, "Oh my God, I can't believe I'm acting like this." I got to the gate. Flight was getting canceled. I was nice to the gate agent who was getting yelled at by a thousand people and I would have been one of them a week before. But now I was like super relaxed and nice guy. They ended up putting me in first class. It was just so funny, man. I'm like, "Wow, it takes so much more effort to be sad or angry or depressed." The, the medicine really knocked off decades of, of layers of crap and it really allowed me to see souls. It really... I, I stopped seeing sex, race, you know, whatever. And I really started looking at people as who they truly are underneath all of this stuff, which is just a, a, a soul.

[01:24:23] Speaker 2: A-

[01:24:23] Speaker 1: That's incredible. Yeah.

[01:24:24] Speaker 2: And I remember that... I remember at one point at the beginning of my journey when I just dropped to my knee, there was this big massive white light. And intuitively I'm like, "Oh boy, that's probably God." (laughs) And I remember just dropping to my knees and saying, "I am just... I am... Please forgive me. I have not been a good father, husband, or human, and I am awful." And just with a wave of its hand or a wave of something, it was all gone.... uh, it- it- it- you know, it was like God just kind of said, "That 100-pound backpack you've been carrying, son, is not yours." And just took it and put it down, uh, away from me. And I remember getting this feeling of God looking at me and saying, "Matthew, I don't make imperfect things. You are perfect. Now your external shell, and obviously your ego and all that crap, we can work on." But ...

[01:25:24] Speaker 2: And, and, and, and that- that has stayed with me, and that will stay with me for the rest of my life, is that everybody, I don't care if you're Jeffrey Dahmer or Vladimir Putin, at the most basic level, we are the same cosmic stardust that God ... We- we all started perfect, and underneath all of this stuff is the ability to heal. You can get rid of all that stuff. I tell people I am absolutely convinced if I could kidnap Putin, Zelensky, Netanyahu and, and whoever the head of Hezbollah is for the next two minutes, uh, if you put them on a retreat and did the medicine, there would be no war. I guarantee that.

[01:26:04] Speaker 2: And that's another reason I tell people, when people are like, "Hey, why are these medicines illegal?" I'm like, "They have the potential to turn warriors into peacemakers." And people are like-

[01:26:16] Speaker 1: I love that.

[01:26:16] Speaker 2: ... "Oh." They can-

[01:26:18] Speaker 1: Lo-

[01:26:18] Speaker 2: ... turn warriors into peacemakers.

[01:26:21] Speaker 1: I love that. And I hate to cut you off, and I definitely want to have you back again, but they're- we're up against our time. They're- they're beeping-

[01:26:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, man.

[01:26:27] Speaker 1: ... at me here. But-

[01:26:29] Speaker 2: You got it.

[01:26:29] Speaker 1: ... how can people get involved? No Fallen Heroes, tell us a little bit real quick, because I want people to be aware-

[01:26:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, you got it, man. Go to nofallen-

[01:26:36] Speaker 1: ... know how to get-

[01:26:37] Speaker 2: Yeah, go to nofallenheroes.com. That's our website. And then obviously our Instagram is, is that as well, nofallenheroes. And then my Instagram is officialwhizbuckley, W-H-I-Z, uh, Buckley. And then check out our YouTube channel. The No Fallen Heroes YouTube channel has a ton of content of veterans, first responders, and family members healing, uh, telling their medicine journey and their healing journey. So the, the YouTube channel has a ton of great content. If any of this resonated with you, you can check it out there.

[01:27:09] Speaker 1: Okay. I really appreciate you joining us. One last quick thing I got to ask. How did you get your call sign?

[01:27:16] Speaker 2: Oh my God, man, you saved that to the end? Let's just say-

[01:27:19] Speaker 1: Well ...

[01:27:19] Speaker 2: ... that call signs ... In the old days-

[01:27:22] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[01:27:22] Speaker 2: ... call signs were not a complimentary thing. So, uh, since we don't have a lot of time left, I'm gonna say it has nothing to do with intelligence.

[01:27:32] Speaker 1: It has everything to do with your show. Gotcha.

[01:27:33] Speaker 2: Exactly.

[01:27:33] Speaker 1: I had ...

[01:27:34] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[01:27:34] Speaker 1: So this is funny. Mine was, as you could guess, Hollywood.

[01:27:37] Speaker 2: Ah.

[01:27:37] Speaker 1: And it was-

[01:27:38] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[01:27:39] Speaker 1: It was funny because they were yelling at me during training, could not get my attention. I always had sunglasses. And the captain finally said, "Hey, Hollywood," and I looked up.

[01:27:50] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[01:27:50] Speaker 1: That was it. It stuck. (laughs)

[01:27:53] Speaker 2: I love it, man. We had a guy who-

[01:27:55] Speaker 1: And on that, we're gonna have to say goodbye. But Wiz, we really appreciate you joining us. This was Matt "Whiz" Buckley, founder of No Fallen Heroes, Top Gun Options. If you're looking to expand your portfolio or deal with any type of trauma, please take some time, look at his website, get to know what he's doing. He does amazing work, and we will definitely have him back on this show again. Thank you for joining us.

[01:28:22] Speaker 1: (instrumental music)