[00:13] Speaker 1: Welcome to Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host, and we're a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a law enforcement perspective. And let me introduce our, our panelists. We have Dr. Joel Schultz on the show, retired police chief. He's in the Colorado, uh, area right now. Uh, we like to say... keep it at an undisclosed location. He's had, you know, some people. He's had, he's had basically a fan base, you know, and we're just trying to protect him from the fan base, so. But good to have you back on the show, Chief.

[00:42] Speaker 2: I'm not worried about the fan base. It's the death threats that, uh, are bothering me.

[00:46] Speaker 1: (laughs) It's the de- it's the death threats. Oh, okay. And, uh, and guys, a shout-out to our sponsors. Please support our sponsors. They go to great lengths to bring this, this good quality content to you. We've got our title sponsor, gaulus@gaulus.com. Uh, Complyant Technologies, our satellite sponsor. We have gunlearn.com, MyMedicare.Life, Safeguard Recruiting, our streaming sponsor, and thanks to them, we're streaming, um, to over a million followers during the live show right now. And also, 2belles.com, they built a new online store at leoroundtable.com. So if you want, uh, cool gear like the shirt that I'm wearing, go to leoroundtable.com. Go to the online store. Or the mug that the chief is showing off, and go to leoroundtable.com and, uh, and, you know, place your order. We don't make a dime off of anything on the store, and, and when I ever... when I'm buying stuff, I do it the same way you do. I, I, I go to the online store. I make a purchase.

[01:34] Speaker 1: I have no discount code or anything. I just, I make it because it is bare rock-bottom prices and, uh, we, we keep it that way to get our gear out there. So again, we don't make anything off the store. We're just trying to get our gear out there. Um, also a, uh, shout-out to Bryan Burns for the Tampa Free Press at tampafp.com. Thanks for carrying our content, Bryan. And Ray Dieter at formerlawman.com, and Travis Yates with lawoficer.com. Thanks to all those entities for helping make the show happen. And now, what in the world are we talking about today? We've got a couple, uh, a couple, two main stories. They have a tendency to be, you know, a little bit deeper, but our first one, we have two more people arrested in the Minnesota church invasion. Now, remember, that was, uh, not Minneapolis, but that was, you know, Saint Paul. So, you know, Minneapolis-Saint Paul, right next to each other.

[02:17] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[02:17] Speaker 1: So we're gonna be covering that. We've also got Portland mayor demands ICE leave after they use tear gas at a protest. We got charges being dismissed against a former North Carolina police officer in a fatal officer-involved shooting, but he did lose his job. Then we have a motorcyclist being fatally shot when he points a gun at officers during a struggle after a pursuit. Um, we got Bakersfield Police. There's a body cam showing a police officer shooting a, a, a suspect, leaving him in critical condition. We've got Christopher Taylor, um, being reinstated as a police officer and getting his license back to p- to, uh, to be a cop. Uh, Jacksonville police officers fatally shoot a domestic disturbance suspect when he pulls out a gun. And then Greenville Sheriff's Office determines that a deadly deputy shooting of a knife-wielding suspect was justified. So there you go. So we'll, um, we'll cover...

[03:06] Speaker 1: If this, if it's okay with you, Chief, we'll cover the, the main stories one at a time since they're kind of like in, in, in, in jurisdictions, you know, across the country. Um, so the-

[03:15] Speaker 2: Sure.

[03:15] Speaker 1: ... the first one, uh, we'll start off here in the Minneapolis area, but we're actually, um, you know, where that Minnesota church, uh, is at. Um, The Daily Signal, i- it's really the libertydaily.com. Two more arrested in Minnesota church invasion. And federal authorities arrested two more people in this Minnesota church invasion, and this is according to our favorite AG, Pam Bondi, and she made this announcement on Monday. And she said, "If you riot in a place of worship, we will find you." A- and I believe her. Um, we made two more arrests in connection with a coordinated attack in Cities Church, which is in Saint Paul, Minnesota. And Ian Davis Austin and Jerome DeAngelo Richardson, uh, they both got added to the list, so they've been popped. Um, both Austin and Richardson appear in the indictment, uh, that a federal grand jury handed down on Thursday. So these people are actually being indicted.

[04:05] Speaker 1: And Minnesota Public Radio reported that authorities arrested Austin on Friday, and this group of anti-ICE agitators, they interrupted the Sunday service last month at Cities Church in Saint Paul. It's a non-denominational Christian church. And according to the indictment, both Austin and Richardson, the two latest additions to the indictment list, they met with Nikema Lebby-Armstrong and Shawntel Louisa Allen before they invaded the church. And now, of course, we've got the name we've been waiting for, former CNN host and independent journalist Don Lemon. He told Richardson, quote, "Don't give anything away," unquote, while speaking to his online audience as he was live-streaming the invasion.

[04:43] Speaker 1: Both defendants allegedly joined Lebby-Armstrong and Allen and Lemon in the church, and they engaged in, quote, "menacing and threatening behavior," unquote, toward those in the church service such as physically obstructing them, uh, uh, attempting to exit or move, uh, about within the church, which is just... You know. And, and that, I, I'm assuming it appears that that is the actual language they used in the charging instrument in the affidavit or, or the indictment. Um, Austin allegedly stood with other agitators in and around the main aisles in the church, so this has turned into ch- a, a church service. And, and they were intimidating or acting to intimidate the church members, obstructing and interfering with their freedom of movement, approaching the pastor and the congregants in a menacing manner, and near the end of the operation, they loudly berated the pastor with questions about Christian nationalism and Christians wanting to have their faith be the law of the land.

[05:35] Speaker 1: It's just crazy. Richardson allegedly joined Don, Don Lemon, uh, and independent journalist Georgia Fort as they surrounded the pastor. Are you kidding me? And then on Friday, uh, Pam Bondi, our attorney general, announced the arrest of, of Don Lemon, uh, uh, and, uh, Fort, Traherne Cruz, and Jamal Lundy. In the week before, law enforcement had arrested Lebby, Armstrong, Allen, and William Kelley, who's the guy that posted videos of this incident online under the handle of Da Woke P... farmer of all names. So there you go. Chief Schultz?

[06:11] Speaker 2: You know, Chip, as I was reading, uh, the assignment to, to, to look at this material today, I, I went down a rabbit hole and I started seeing, you know, the, the Twitter feeds and the, or X and, and, uh, different kinds of spouting off of, of folks like the w- the woke guy. Um...

[06:31] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[06:31] Speaker 2: And I... You know, we talked about this, this, uh, church invasion in, uh, at the ShopSaro on the live show. But at the time, I didn't know the details. I was just appalled that somebody would choose a church as a target and disrupt the service. But when you look at the indictment, there's over 20 individual points of, uh, alleged illegal behavior and, you know, the intimidation, the, um, refusing to let people leave, keeping parents separated from their kids downstairs. Uh, uh, it, it, it just... And, and is, was super organized as all of these things are. We, we've said this time and time again on this show that, that these, that these things are not spontaneous. Um, so not only do we have the recordings of the plan, but we see the plan executed in the video. So the, the folks went in kind of en masse but they, they deployed as planned within the church and they just sat there for a little while and then they went into disruption mode.

[07:33] Speaker 2: Um, and s- and some of the language and some of the a- accusations and the perverted theology that was being spouted out by, by Lemon and others, Lamont or whatever his name is. Um, it just... It, it just gets worse and worse the more you look at it.

[07:50] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[07:50] Speaker 2: Um, and, and I, I am... I'm just, I'm just convinced, uh, not in any conspiratorial way but this is really a battle of ideology which is largely anti-Trump. And I understand some of the sentiment, uh, but, but it's, it's really not about us. It's not about us at all. It's about, uh, organizations that are being funded and deployed and planned and, uh, uh, uh, aided by technology and surveillance and, um, uh, communication, um, in order to disrupt the, the presidency. I'm, I'm, I'm confident of that. And I say that because, you know, as everybody knows if you look at the statistics, the small percentage of ICE activity that's going on in Minneapolis that has the eyes of the nation focused on it, um, the most, most prolific ICE activity is down in Texas. 25% of the stuff that's going on with ICE is, is actually in the state of Texas. I, I just don't remember seeing any riots. I don't remember seeing anybody shot.

[08:55] Speaker 2: I don't remember, um, you know, the news being filled with, with, uh, uh, images of, of pepper spray being sprayed in protester's faces. So it, it's not about a, a true national movement although we, we... they have moved the needle on the sentiment, um, anti-ICE to, I think, uh, im- impugn the reputation and the credibility of the, uh, Trump Administration. And again, the, the White House has done some things that, um, that, that present bad optics, um, and, uh, using a lot of the political capital, uh, in a way that's been kind of frittered away. So we see some changes. We see Homan going out there and trying to negotiate which is a... just a super very interesting contrast in the way that the administration has handled conflict. It's usually like, "Okay, I've, I've got the bigger bulldozer, I've got more guns. I'll go do what I want to do and you guys can sort it out later." Um, and s- so these negotiations or, or even simply communication I think is a good step forward.

[10:02] Speaker 2: But, uh, you know, the, the, the feds are using, um, LPRs, license plate readers and facial recognition and, uh, drones and, uh, probably other types of surveillance that we may not even realize. But so is the other side and it's super highly organized and super highly financed and the American people are, are eating up the propaganda. You know, the, the fake pictures of kids in cages, uh, the fake pictures of just a moment in time when somebody's getting pepper sprayed but you don't see that they were attacking the officer. Uh, this glorification of people like Good and, and Priddy and bless their hearts. I'm sorry they're... uh, you know, that they got shot. Um, but, but this protest movement is coming with so much baggage. If anybody takes any time to try to rationally look at the best sources and, you know, who knows what the truth is, um, but it, it's a battle for the mind. It's not just a policy issue. It's a battle for the mind, the hearts and minds of the American people.

[11:07] Speaker 2: Um, and, uh, the, the rational middle ground is losing, uh, ink time and air time to, to, uh, to those folks that are trying to undermine the, uh... our democracy really in the name of preserving democracy and being against oppression.

[11:26] Speaker 1: What do you think about them using the Ku Klux Klan Act and the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act as charging instruments for these guys? You got 15 seconds.

[11:37] Speaker 2: I think it's very appropriate. You know, uh, w- when they, when they did the Protect the Abortion Clinic Act, I'm glad somebody said, "Okay. Well, let's, let's make sure that they're equally treating other institutions." Um, and so that's appropriate. And the KKK says, "You can't deny people their... your civil rights as an organization." Absolutely appropriate.

[11:57] Speaker 1: All right. Great. Commercial break. We'll be right back, guys. (instrumental music plays) My family only cares about one thing; that I come home safe.

[12:07] Speaker 3: At Galls, every order begins with a promise. Made with purpose.Stitched for support. Back with pride. Answered by dedicated hands. Delivering the standard you have sworn to uphold. We serve more than the mission. We serve the person. Each piece is engineered to help get our first responders through the shift and back home safe.

[13:00] Speaker 1: Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host. We're joined by, uh, former chief and doctor currently, Joel Schultz at joelschultz... Uh, well, you've got... oh, I see, joelschultz.blogspot.com. That is a new one I just noticed, Chief.

[13:20] Speaker 2: (laughs) Yeah, um, i- if people want to see more about what I write about and some opinion pieces and, and articles that I've had posted other places, they can, they can take a look at that. Um, it just... I thought I'd give people the opportunity to-

[13:32] Speaker 1: Nice.

[13:32] Speaker 2: ... uh, to take a look at that and go through the history of, of, uh, articles.

[13:36] Speaker 1: So are you ready? We've been talking about... and, and you brought up a good point too that, that during SHOT Show, we were live there a couple of weeks ago, uh, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday of that week, and we were covering, I mean, all the stuff that just happened. I mean, we were talking about Minneapolis and St. Paul and Portland and just all the stuff. Um, and, and it, it, it really made our jobs a lot easier because there was just so much going on in the news cycle. Just talking about... just talking about that was enough. There was just so much to talk about. Um, but are, are you ready to move on to Portland from, uh, from St. Paul?

[14:11] Speaker 2: Well, that's, um... (laughs) That's an interesting, interesting shift. I'm not, I'm not sure we're really changing the subject matter that much to go from Minneapolis to Portland. But yeah, yeah, we can talk about Portland.

[14:22] Speaker 1: Well, well, uh, but there i-... We are gonna be talking about chemical agents, though, which I, I, I... you know, with this Portland thing. Um, which, which excites me because I had a conversation with Jeff Wininger, former LAPD, and, and I asked Jeff... because we're talking about riots, riot control and, and about a judge limiting LAPD's, uh, uh, ability to use, like, the 40 mil-... 40 millimeter less lethal launcher. But then I started... I, I just asked Jeff out of curiosity, "Do you guys use gas?" You know, uh, like chemicals and, and, and there's a difference between what kind of gas you use. But he said no. And I'm just like, "Oh my gosh. No wonder you guys have so much... so many problems if you're not even using gas." I mean, even in Tampa. Look, we've had three days of riots and all kind... but we got everything under control because... I tell you, gas is, is fantastic. So we'll, we'll talk about that more in a second. But lawofficer.com is where this story's from.

[15:13] Speaker 1: Portland mayor demands ICE leave after tear gas at a protest. So the mayor didn't like that and, uh, I guess he'd rather people get shot with 40 millimeter less lethal launchers and, and hit with, you know, expandable batons that are like metal pipes. But Portland mayor demands ICE leave after federal agents use tear gas during a weekend protest outside an ICE facility, according to city officials. Mayor Keith Wilson, that's his name, don't forget that, uh, said the daytime demonstration was peaceful and posed no danger to federal agents. But I suspect the feds would, uh, would differ from that assessment. According to reporting, thousands of demonstrators arrived at an ICE facility in Portland's South Waterfront area on Saturday. Now, thousands of them. What are the odds in Portland that, that that's gonna be peaceful? Witnesses described federal agents deploying tear gas and other less lethal munitions as the crowd approached the facility.

[16:08] Speaker 1: So they were encroaching on the area, including in areas where parents and young children were present. Now, the mayor, Keith Wilson, issued a statement that night calling on ICE to leave Portland. In the same statement, he criticized the use of chemical agents during what he described as a peaceful daytime protest and urged ICE personnel to resign, to quit the agency. Now, the AP, the Associated Press, reported that Portland police, they monitored the protest. And I... it, it kind of reminds me of Minneapolis police, which are all sitting inside a police headquarters while the... you know, instead of wanting to get involved in the action and help ICE out, or Border Patrol, and prevent it from escalating to where people are getting killed. It sounds like Portland police are doing the same thing. They're monitoring the protest.

[16:49] Speaker 1: And here we got the feds having to, you know, launch, you know, chemical agents and stuff and less lethal munitions to protect themselves and, and maybe other people, and, and they're just monitoring. And it says that the paramedics treated the people affected by the gas. So I guess they were willing to step in to treat people affected by the gas. The AP also described the building as a federal immigration processing center used to determine the immigration statuses. So, um, you know, when it... when it... when it comes to gas, I, I mean, just in, in short, what I would like to say, Chief, is that, you know, you've got... they say tear gas. You've got OC and CS gas, right? So OC, uh, pepper spray, typically not a dispersing agent because people... your eyes will shut. It's involuntary. You, you can't help it. Even if you want to open up your eyes and you've, you've been sprayed with OC pepper spray, you're just simply not gonna be able to hold your eyes open. It's just...

[17:37] Speaker 1: it's just the reaction. But with CS gas, you can breathe. It will... it will burn. Your eyes are gonna water, your nose and nostrils are just gonna be... you know, snot's just gonna pour out of your nose and stuff. But it just... it's just... it gets uncomfortable but it's a great dispersing agent because you can run away, walk away. You can see what you're doing. You're totally aware of everything going on. And, uh... and if you're a cop, you can also protect yourself, you know, uh, because you can see too. Um, so... uh, because there's always that... that cross-contamination thing. So I, I love gas. I love gas as a... when you're trying to do a vehicle extraction and you just put a little... you have a canister with a little hose that gets in the doorjamb where the window is, and you're just spraying it and people vamoose. But I don't see that being used a lot anymore, even in demonstrations like this. And, and when we had the Tampa riots, we had guys with these...

[18:25] Speaker 1: with these, um, CS gas canisters. And I mean canisters like, like scuba tanks on their backs with sprayers, and they would just hose people down. And, and I'll tell you, it, it was perfect. And this is in the hood, in the projects. And-... man, they just vamoosed and the people that were throwing Molotov cocktails and rocks and bottles and stuff, and setting dumpsters on fire and all kinds of stuff, they cleared out and, and, and it, it accomplished what we wanted. I don't know what your exposure is, chief, but your thoughts?

[18:52] Speaker 2: Well, I've been exposed, believe me, both to ... And, and I was glad when we, uh, transitioned from, uh, CS, uh, CN2, uh, pepper spray because, you know, the way it works a little different and, and, uh, uh, the effect is more immediate with, with the pepper spray. Um, but, we ... You know, the, the, the broader issue of less lethal, um, the, the, the courts and sometimes public opinion will want to take those tools away from us, but then you still have the problem and you've got to put in another tool. So you know, they, they took away the lateral vascular restraint, you know, erroneously called the chokehold. That was a great tool, a great tool. PR24, a l- a lot of departments quit using those. Very versatile, uh, effective tool. Um, taking away the 40 millimeter, you know, and then the, as you said, wh- what are you left with? The important part about this Portland thing is they didn't just, just see, "Oh, there's a group of people.

[19:50] Speaker 2: Let's pop 'em with, with, uh, with, uh, tear gas."

[19:54] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[19:54] Speaker 2: It's like they were encroaching on the property. They were, they were app- apparently trying to get in the gates. They were trespassing. They had stopped being, uh, uh, demonstrators and they started being, uh, trespassers, and you've got a facility that you have to prac- uh, protect the staff and you've gotta protect the assets and you've pro- gotta protect whatever mission is going on in there. You can't let just people storm the gates. You've got to stop that, and that's what gas does. It doesn't punish people, uh, when you're ticked off at them. It- it's, it's a message to move away and stop doing what you're doing.

[20:30] Speaker 1: Good point, and perfect timing, Chief. It's time for our next commercial break. Stick with us, guys. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about Compliant Technologies at complianttechnologies.com. In today's world, protection goes beyond physical safety. It's about safeguarding those on the front lines from what we call hidden threats, and that's where Mitek, which is a division of Compliant Technologies, comes in. Now, Mitek provides advanced protective solutions designed for law enforcement, corrections, and first responders. Their Eagle Protect nitrile gloves, they offer four-hour fentanyl and xylene protection, giving you peace of mind in high-risk environments. Plus, the MyShield disinfectants and their sanitizers, they eliminate 99.9% of germs, bacteria and viruses on contact, and they continue to kill for up to 28 days, helping you stay protected both on and off duty.

[21:10] Speaker 1: So when safety is non-negotiable, you can trust Mitek to deliver the protection that you need, and you can learn more about how to equip your team today by simply going to complianttechnologies.com/mitek. Again, that's complianttechnologies/mitek because the best defense starts with the right protection. And hey, if you haven't been to complianttechnologies.com yet, go there and check out the gloves as well, complianttechnologies.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock and I'm your host. We're joined by Dr. Joel Schultz, former police chief. He is in, uh, the Colorado area. And Chief, um, I know that we've been talking about, golly, uh, St. Paul. We've been talking about Portland and are, are, are you ready to leave Portland and, and go to, uh, North Carolina?

[21:57] Speaker 2: I, I would just say that, that we all probably need to pull out our copy of the Constitution, mine's on my bedside, I don't have it in front of me, and look at the First Amendment. What does the First Amendment protect? Uh, first of all, it's not a ... There's nothing in the, uh, uh, in the Bill of Rights that was voted on or given to government. This is a list of God-given rights that we want to ensure and enshrine in the Constitution to keep the government from violating or suppressing those rights. So when we look at the First Amendment, um, uh, freedom of speech, uh, freedom of assembly, freedom to petition the government for redress, freedom, uh, from government interference with religion and freedom to, uh, freedom of exercise of religion, there's nothing in there that is a license to commit, um, and, and, uh, to, to act in a way that infringes somebody else's First Amendment right.

[23:00] Speaker 2: And nor does it give you a license to, uh, claim some type of moral superiority that I, I know people have a, a right to, to have church, but my cause is so much greater, I'm gonna use my so-called First Amendment right to interfere with their First Amendment right. That's not there. Uh, to say that I can march wrong- along the sidewalks with signs, absolutely, but to hit somebody with that sign or to, uh, interfere with a police operation or to, uh, trespass on, on some other person's property or protected property or state property, none of those things is covered by the First Amendment. When Don Lemon says, "Well, I'm a journalist. I'm cov- Anything I do basically is, is, uh, um, protected by the First Amendment," no. Absolutely not. It, you, it is not a, a permission to take some self-proclaimed moral high ground, um, and interfere with other people's rights, and that's your sermon for today.

[23:58] Speaker 1: (laughs) Okay. Thanks, Chief. Hey, I notice we've got a Don Turpin on Facebook saying, "Go ICE." We've got Fran Wayne in, looks like she's on YouTube.Uh, so thanks for the commentary, guys. Uh, we appreciate it and, and for the support, and for, uh, you know, backing up what we're saying. You know, the goal of the show is to make you guys among the smartest people in the r- in the room when it comes to news items. But of course, we make... we don't apologize. We tell the news from a law enforcement perspective, uh, but you guys are getting, you know, the inside scoop on a lot of things from the law enforcement perspective too. So, um, so thanks, Chief. I appreciate it. And let's go in and, and hop over to North Carolina real quick. We've got an update article. It's from globalordinancenews.com.

[24:38] Speaker 1: Charges dismissed-

[24:39] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[24:39] Speaker 1: ... against a former North Carolina officer in a fatal officer-involved shooting. So, uh, this is Greensboro, North Carolina, but, a Gulaford... or I guess, I guess it's a, a, a Guilford County court dismissed manslaughter charges, which is something you never want to get charged with as a cop. Uh, but this guy's a former Greensboro police officer. His name is Matthew Edward Hamilton and they dismissed the charges on Friday. So, I'll bet he's feeling a little bit better, uh, today. Uh, Hamilton had been on trial, uh, since January the 12th for the November 2021 shooting death of a guy named Joseph Lopez, uh, of Greensboro. Um, so to put that in perspective, so that trial started, um, I guess over, over four years... Well, I guess it had been over four years ago is when that incident happened and this guy was in the middle of trial. Superior Court Judge David Hall, he was presiding over the case.

[25:28] Speaker 1: Uh, they expected it to extend through the week before the winter weather closes the court early this week, and he dismissed it. Uh, Hamilton was part of a group of officers who searched for Lopez at a home in Greensboro back in 2021. Lopez was wanted for multiple charges of possession of a firearm by a felon and, uh, assault inflicting serious injury. So, when Lopez refused Hamilton's command to come out of a dark shed, Hamilton released his K-9 into the shed and then fired a shot that ended up killing Lopez. And it doesn't give a lot more information on that. Hamilton, um, said in 2021 just after the incident, they had seen what he thought was something in Lopez's hands, uh, but investigators determined that the guy was unarmed. But it didn't say whether there was anything in his hand that maybe was not a weapon or, or maybe could have been construed as a weapon.

[26:16] Speaker 1: So, the trial, uh, came nearly four years later after Hamilton was indicted on the manslaughter charge, but he ended up being fired from his department and that happened back in, in 2022, the, the, the very next year. Chief Schultz?

[26:27] Speaker 2: You know, I worked a, a similar case where, uh, a felon was... uh, uh, came out of a playhouse, that, uh, uh... he'd been hiding in somebody's backyard and the officer, uh, fired and, uh, made some unfortunate... the officer made some unfortunate res gesta kind of statements, uh, s- spontaneous utterances. If, if you shoot somebody, shut up, (laughs) I would say, uh, as a general rule. Um, and, uh, they charged him and fortunately I had been doing some research through FSI, the Force Science Institute, on one of my own officer-involved shootings. And, uh, I, I went to the prosecutor and I said, "This is bogus. It's a bad charge." And so I really... you know, I had a flashback to that when I read about this case. The... there, there are a couple of things I, I'd want to say and I don't need to chew up, you know, my whole time here with it. But, um, you know, when, when they... when you say, "Well, we didn't find a gun." You know? Uh, well it doesn't matter as you, as you implied.

[27:27] Speaker 2: It's what the officer reasonably, objectively believed at the time, um, and, and made a split-second decision on. And hopefully that's what the judge looked at that and said, "Well, you know, I, I, I don't think this guy, you know, should be criminally charged." But meantime, for years and years and years, um, you know, I still hear this statement, "Oh, c- cops just want to shoot somebody." That's the last thing... we absolutely have to be ready to any moment, but that's the last thing any cop wants to do. You can be sued in state court, you can be s- uh, sued in federal court, you can be criminally charged in state court, you can be criminally charged in federal court, you can face department sanctions, and your life is gonna be absolutely disrupted. Your career is gone. Uh, the emotional toll is huge. The family pressure is huge. The, the PR... you know, getting doxxed to getting hate mail. It's, it's...

[28:19] Speaker 2: i- i- it's no wonder that, um, in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases, and we can prove this through research, officers who have the legal, moral, ethical, uh, tactical, uh, r- justifiable belief to use deadly force, don't, um, because they'll do everything they can to avoid it. So, there are just so many consequences for this poor guy. And here we are, uh, five years later from the event, no job, probably drowning in bills, um, no telling what has happened to his family and, and, uh, reputation in the community, and all for the ultimate result of saying, "Nah, you're okay." He, he can't just walk away from that. He can't go back to his career after that.

[29:03] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, there's... yeah, there's, there's definitely fallout, so... Well, I'm glad that the judge dismissed the case and hopefully he can get some portion of his life back and recover after this, you know, be... but, uh... but yeah. And I can only imagine the, uh, the bills from the... I don't know about if he had a union or a... you know, an attorney sup- you know, supplied for him, but, but wow. You know, he, he likely is in debt hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, on this thing too, so...

[29:29] Speaker 2: I, I... you know, I never had one. I was never in a union. I never had a protection plan. Um, uh, I, I naively for most of my career thought my department was gonna take care of me. I have since believed that that's never true. (laughs) Um, yet, you know, Randy Sutton's story is, is really illustrative of that. Uh, y- you may remember, you know, he had an on-duty injury and, uh, they delayed in trying to, uh, take care of him and he finally realized they were just, uh, waiting for him to die because it would have been ch- cheaper for the department, um, f- for him to meet his demise than to, you know, to, to, to pay out, uh, what, what he needed to s- survive. Um, so m- my word to cops out there and if you're a loved one of a cop, uh, ask them, "Do you have legal insurance? Do you have coverage? Do you have..."... an attorney's name in your speed dial.

[30:19] Speaker 2: Um, you need somebody like, uh, Lance LaRusso that, you know, has been on the show-

[30:24] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[30:25] Speaker 2: ... uh, and, and defends officers. Your typical defense attorney is not gonna have an understanding of the depths of use of force, um, and maybe even a, a full understanding of the laws of, of self-defense or the, the, uh, uh, privileges that police officers have or think that they have. Um, so it, it's just... It, it can be very, very devastating and I'm, I'm very fortunate that I never had to pull the trigger. Had plenty of opportunities to, I'm sure you did too, but we just, we just, um... M- Most of the time, we, we can, we can resolve it without that. Often at great risk to our own lives, uh, because we, we don't want to do that. And, of course, as many commentators have said on this show, um, this de-escalation mythology, uh, and training out there is, is really risking people's lives because they're delaying and trying to accomplish something that is not going to be accomplished without the cooperation of the suspect. Um, so it's, uh...

[31:19] Speaker 2: I'm, I'm glad for this officer, um, but he's gonna have to rebuild his life completely for something that was absolutely justified.

[31:27] Speaker 1: No doubt. You know, my last six years were with the, uh, police union and, uh, so it was an elected position, but I was, you know, full, you know, full-time police officer getting paid by the city, but on full-time release to the union, so it was kind of a unique set-up. Uh, but I'll tell you, a lot of... Some people... Most people were, were, were members of the union, but there were some who were not until they got in the grease and then all of a sudden they wanted to join the uni- union to get that free representation. And a lot of it's about relationships too. There were... I can tell you, before we had a, a labor rep, I would have to represent the officers and there's a lot of deals that go on behind closed doors. It's all about relationships and about exit strategies and stuff. It, it's... You know, it, it's important, guys. If you guys... Don't miss your opportunity to be... To get that representation or be part of that union if it, if it's there. Commercial break.

[32:15] Speaker 1: We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about GunLearn at gunlearn.com. You know, as law enforcement officers, we deal with guns and ammunition every day, but it's what we don't know about them that gets us into trouble. Injuries, civil lawsuits, accidental discharges, misidentifications, lost prosecutions and disciplinary issues, but gunlearn.com, they have your back. You can quickly become extremely firearm knowledgeable by simply learning 14 training modules from the convenience of your home or your office or by attending a live seminar at gunlearn.com. You can also become a safe, accurate and competent certified firearms specialist like our very own Captain Brett Bartlett and also Attorney Ken Apianco. Now, the course has had huge success in raising the bar of firearms knowledge and GunLearn has been a trusted source since way back in 2011 by gun manufacturers, federal agencies, forensic organizations and police departments nationwide.

[33:02] Speaker 1: Now the founder, Dan O'Kelly, has got a deal for you if you have your own agency. If you're a chief or a sheriff, you can host a seminar for absolutely no cost. It's an amazing opportunity. You can go to thegunlearn.com to get more information. Again, that is gunlearn.com. Welcome back. Leo Round Table at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock and I'm your host. We're joined by Dr. Joel Schultz, retired police chief. Wow, we've been talking about a lot of, a lot of different things. Just an update story that we covered a second ago, uh, about an officer, um, uh... You know, them, them dropping a, a manslaughter charge on him. Uh, any, any final words on that, Chief, or are you, are you ready to go on to our, our video story with the motorcyclist?

[33:41] Speaker 2: No. Just, again, if you're a cop, uh, or a loved cop, make sure they have an attorney, make sure they have an insurance program. You need that expert testimony or you'll never make it through most, uh, prosecutions.

[33:50] Speaker 1: That's right. Good, good advice. Um, guys, rumble.com is the source of this story. It's the, uh, video channel called This is Butter. Motorcyclist fatally shot when he points a gun at officers during a struggle after pursuit.

[34:03] Speaker 3: (sirens blaring) Good boy.

[36:19] Speaker 1: ... patrol jumps into it. So we got troopers and, uh, they're chasing this guy for about 20 minutes over a 15-mile area and the sheriff's office says the pursuit ended in a, in a, in a fiery crash in an intersection. Not, not really. Um, the guy gets forced off his, uh, off his bike. Um, he ends up having to go off the roadway because the, uh, you know, they, we're, they were getting... It's been 15 miles in 20 minutes, they're getting tired of the chase and so they just kind of make him uncomfortable on the roadway, he goes off the roadway, looks like he loses control and he goes into the brush and, and, and then he lays the bike down, and then he bails off on foot. But there, but there is a... I don't remember whether it was a trooper or deputy (laughs) but they're like some dude. And I, and I was wondering, "Who's gonna shut the bike off?" 'Cause you can hear the bike winding, you know, it's still going and I'm thinking, "All right.

[37:06] Speaker 1: We got this deputy that's about 100 pounds overweight or a trooper." I, I doubted it was a trooper because it's mostly... We don't see troopers that look that bad out of shape, right shape. It's always, it's always, you know, the, the cops or the d- or the deputies. So, so this big dude is... And I'm thinking he's probably got a Harley parked in the, in the, uh, you know, parked in the garage that he hardly ever gets on and I'm expecting him to, like, shut it off. And then all of a sudden he jumps back because all of a sudden a flame starts coming from the bike because it had been running, I'm sure, and it was, like, all heated up on the grass and stuff. So it catches on fire, but it really wasn't a fiery crash. And meanwhile this guy is running away and then they cut to another video that where the bad guy, he's on his back and they're trying to get him to roll over and they send the K-9.

[37:46] Speaker 1: The K-9's already latched onto him and so, um, about the time they start verbalizing that, you know, "Gun, gun, gun," they see him, he's got... looked like he had a gun in his waistband in the front, because remember he's on his back and they're, like, fighting with him and stuff. And they're trying to get him to roll over in a prone position face down and then about that time the dog, whatever the dog had grabbed onto with his mouth, he rips it off the guy and it looked like maybe a fanny pack or something. I don't know. The dog was happy that he retrieved whatever it was he was latched onto, but he no longer has the bad guy anymore. And then a guy, it looks like a cop, goes in to grab the gun, secure the gun that the bad guy is going for in his waistband right at the time the cops start to shoot. And so that guy abandons the gun, going for the gun in, in the bad guy's waistband and falls back on the, in the field and they, and they light this guy up A- a- a- and he's dead.

[38:38] Speaker 1: He's been identified as Jerry Pegram, uh, was his name. Commentary, Chief Schultz

[38:44] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[38:45] Speaker 4: (laughs)

[38:45] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[38:46] Speaker 2: Uh, you know, I, I don't, um... I- I'm usually not... and I'm not gonna be critical in this event either, just some observations. I, I don't know what I would have done if I'd been one of the 16 cops who showed up on this thing. First of all, it sounds like it might have been a parade chase, you know. Um, m- most protocols now is, you know, you got a lead car, a second car may be involved and they do the radio, and then maybe a third car. But after that, everybody's, you know, normal speeds. Um, but, but judging from the number of cops that showed up, uh, on this thing, um, it's hard to coordinate and most of us, particularly rural officers, are not really used to working in a team, particularly with other agencies that may have different policy procedure training. Um, so there's a real potential for a, a cluster, uh, to happen when you have that many officers. And, you know, there, there were... I- I don't know what the K-9's role was here.

[39:38] Speaker 2: You got all these officers, some of them are gonna, uh, lose sight in this dense underbrush that they were going through, um, and, and, uh, y- you know, you could be right up on this bad guy and, uh, and not know it until you get the brush a- apart. So it's, it's a challenging environment for what amounted to a foot pursuit. Um, I don't know... Y- you know, you should at least know where all the other officers are. I saw a lot of, uh, potential crossfire situations where, where muzzles were not, uh... And I thought... You know, I've run with my weapon out and in my hand. I, I would not recommend that ever. You know, try to keep it holstered or at least keep it low ready. But to have that gun, you know, going like this when you're jogging and you got possibly some knucklehead that's gonna get you and you've got branches in, in your face. Um, a- and, you know, most of us have lost our shoulder mic at some time during a pursuit or during a wrestling match. Um, but, you know, some...

[40:36] Speaker 2: one really basic kind of rookie advice is do a, do a jump test before your shift and see if anything falls off, uh, because there's nothing more aggravating tha- than to have to retrace your pursuit steps to find your, your

[40:49] Speaker 1: Uh-huh. Yeah.

[40:50] Speaker 2: ... your gun and your radio (laughs) and your Taser.

[40:53] Speaker 1: Yeah. Good point.

[40:55] Speaker 2: Um, a- and I... 'Cause I saw a mic flying around, you know, and, and that happens. I, I get it. Um, and what wa-... So you had a K-9 there. Like, "Okay, guys, let's line up, get ready to do a s- a grid pattern." And, and I know things were happening fast and you don't know if you've got an armed subject and there's a lot of excitement, so, you know, looking back from, from my point and saying, "Oh, you, you should have organized a, a command center and, and, uh, uh, lined up to do a, a grid search." Um, but you had the dog there. Let the dog go. Let the dog do what the dog does. That'll locate the person and perhaps, uh, disable them. Then you can go on from a much more strategic position. And again, that's just an observation. I'm not gonna hammer anybody about it. But, um... And the (laughs) other thing, I haven't worked a lot with K-9s 'cause, uh, I've...

[41:41] Speaker 2: you know, if I call in a K-9, I'm gonna get in my car and lock the doors 'cause, uh, you know, they can smell fear and they'll come after me. Um, but, but this, this (laughs) this dog apparently thought its mission was to get an article of clothing off the bad guy-

[41:55] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[41:55] Speaker 2: ... and then retreat, you know? It's just like, you know... Th- this dog is so proud, "Look, I got part of a shirt." Uh, like, no, you should be (laughs) arresting this guy. The other curious thing, um, is did you see the, the ammo they took out of that revolver? That... I wanted to ask Brett about that. I think that was one of these, uh... one, one of these revolvers that, that can have a, uh, 410 shotgun shell in it. 'Cause that, that was not a typical cartridge.

[42:22] Speaker 1: Oh, interesting. Yeah.

[42:23] Speaker 2: So, that, that was a, that was a big gun. And again, in the heat of the moment, um, I think an evidence tech would say, "Why did you d- disassemble and empty and, and do all that to the weapon?" That, you know, some, some of the evidence might have been destroyed or the position of the next round or primer, uh, impressions but, you know, when you're there and you wanna make it safe and you've just shot somebody then, you know, uh, i- I get it. Um, so it, it just (laughs) a lot of things going on. Uh, for you rural officers out there, you know, when you saw that, that motorcycle go on the gravel road and get off the pavement, gravel means your pursuit's gonna end badly. And, and I'd say nine times out of 10 it's gonna end badly for the officer because it's a whole different driving experience. It's like driving on ice and, uh, m- motorcycles are particularly not good on, on gravel.

[43:15] Speaker 2: So when, when he, when he flamed out there, even though it was almost like a side pit kind of bock in- boxing thing with the one sheriff's office, I thought this, this pursuit's not gonna last very long.

[43:25] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[43:25] Speaker 2: The fire was a, just a, a Hollywood special effects addition to the whole event.

[43:31] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[43:32] Speaker 2: It's, I was just as surprised as the, as the, uh, the-

[43:36] Speaker 1: The guy that jumped?

[43:37] Speaker 2: ... that face. Yeah.

[43:37] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[43:38] Speaker 2: Well, I got somebody that I'm gonna ch- "Oh my gosh, there's a bomb just went off." So it, it was a, (laughs) it was a, a very interesting, um, uh, convolution of a lot of different factors there. Uh, it'd be a good, uh, be- be a good roll call video to, to watch and, and think about.

[43:55] Speaker 1: I agree. The dog, the dog was happy though. He got, he got what he wanted, whatever that was-

[43:59] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[43:59] Speaker 1: ... in his mouth.

[44:00] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[44:01] Speaker 1: You know? So, uh-

[44:01] Speaker 2: I, I, you know, I get, ask that trainer, is that, (laughs) is that, is, is that what you trained him to do, go pick his pocket and then come back, you know, 10 feet away-

[44:08] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[44:08] Speaker 2: ... and let the officers deal with it?

[44:10] Speaker 1: It makes me wonder if he ever really was latched onto the bad guy or if it was just this like, you know, bag or pouch that he had. But, uh, another, another great show. Chief Schultz, thanks so much for being on the show. I do wanna mention The Wounded Blue at thewoundedblue.org and also our sponsors. Please support our sponsors, guys. We have gaulus.com, complianttechnologies.com, gunlearner.com, mymedicare.live, safeguardrecruiting.com and twobells.com. We'll see you guys back tomorrow, 12:00 noon Eastern.

[44:38] Speaker 1: (rock music plays)