[00:00] Speaker 1: (intro music playing)

[00:19] Speaker 2: Welcome to Hollywood and Horsepower, the show about the story behind the story. Today we are joined by a very special guest. It's a honor to have her with us. She is listed in, I mean, countless awards, Marquis Women We Admire, Top 50 Women Leaders in 2025. There... You know, we could spend the entire show going down through her awards. MB Gray is, m- in my opinion, a top healthcare consultant in the US. And with all the challenges we've got today, I thought it'd be kind of fun to have her on and talk a little bit about this, 'cause I think most people don't realize this. So MB, welcome to the show.

[01:02] Speaker 3: Well, thank you. It's an honor to be here. I'm blushing.

[01:05] Speaker 2: Well, it's an honor to have you. I mean, it's, you know, not- not very often that, you know, we're- we're, uh... distinguished guests show up here. Most of my guests are kind of Schweppes. (laughs)

[01:16] Speaker 3: (laughs) You're funny.

[01:20] Speaker 2: So I wanted to jump right into it. I mean, y- you're one of the to- if not the top healthcare consultant in the US, and, you know, I think most people don't really realize what that is. So, I mean, could you tell us a little bit about it and then we'll kind of go back and, you know, kind of come up to where we are?

[01:41] Speaker 3: Yeah. So healthcare consulting is, um, my job is specifically to work on behalf of employers, um, in negotiating with the insurance, uh, carriers for better terms, better pricing. Um, we manage the vendors to expectation as much as possible, which is difficult these days. Um, but yeah, so we design employer-sponsored health insurance, which, I don't know, 60% to 70% of the United States gets their healthcare through their employer.

[02:15] Speaker 3: So-

[02:15] Speaker 2: Sure.

[02:15] Speaker 3: ... our job is to try to make sure that it's as affordable as possible for employees and their family members, and it's easy to access care, which is part of the problem that we have in the US today. Our- our healthcare system is very complicated and not easy to navigate.

[02:34] Speaker 2: Well, and I think that's something that a lot of people don't realize. I mean, I know for my- myself, I didn't realize that until, you know, several years ago when you and I met and, you know, I learned a little bit more about what you did. And it's, um, interesting to me that I- I think the average person doesn't even realize that there's- there's people like you out there kind of, you know, working on their behalf to get better coverage at a better cost and, you know, improve everything from pharmacy to actual office visit coverage. And, you know, I- I think that that's a very serious thing, because when you look at it today, it's becoming a huge part of everyone's budget. And I mean, I'm not- I'm not trying to get into politics, but, I mean, it's definitely become more noticeable, you know, over the last year or two, and- and it's definitely something that affects almost every household.

[03:28] Speaker 3: Absolutely. And it's, uh, second, it's the second highest business expense for businesses. Um, Warren Buffett, uh, called it the tapeworm of American business profitability. Um, it's going up, uh, in double digit increases, and for the past two years with no end in sight. And, you know, for a business, we need to offer good benefits to retain and attract our good talent that runs our business. So it's a business imperative, and it has to be, you know, top of mind for the C-suite, as, you know, something that they have to focus on, and, uh, really wrap a strategy around it. Because CFOs are looking at this, and they're seeing, you know, 10%, 12% increases.

[04:18] Speaker 3: Uh, and what that equates to is if you have a $10 million spend-

[04:21] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[04:21] Speaker 3: ... on healthcare insurance, that'll double every 7.25 years, right? So almost every, uh, 7.3 years, you're gonna take your $10 million to $20 million, and it's become unaffordable. And the... I think the worst part about our American healthcare system is that we spend so much money on healthcare, and it feels like we get very little results in return. So if you take somebody who's suffering, uh, uh, let's say, um, you get a scary cancer diagnosis, for example, right? Um, somebody goes to the doctor. They find, you know, cancer, and the person, especially if you're a layperson, you might work in manufacturing or retail, uh, or w- uh, an American business where healthcare isn't your primary expertise area, you have no idea where to go.

[05:12] Speaker 2: Or ho- or host a low-grade terrestrial radio show. (laughs)

[05:19] Speaker 3: (laughs) You're funny. You always are funny. Um, yeah, but I mean, think about it. The average person doesn't know where to start, you know? What doctor do you go to? Where... Who do you ask? You end up asking friends who are not qualified to answer your question, or you go to a local doctor.

[05:37] Speaker 2: Especially my friends.

[05:38] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[05:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's very true. I mean, it's- it's, you know, you... they just give up and go to the beach. It's, you know, I- I- I do see that, you know, and it's a very good point. It seems like this is becoming the challenge, you know. It used to be if you had a good job and you had good benefits, it really wasn't that big of a factor to you personally. Today, it seems like even if you have a good job with good benefits, it...... still takes a large chunk of your income to cover your portion of the medical expenses.

[06:12] Speaker 3: Yeah. So you've seen most employers-

[06:12] Speaker 2: And that seems to be a big thing that's changing.

[06:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, most employers are covening- covering 80% of the cost of insurance, but then there's an additional 10 to 15% when the person goes to use the insurance, right? So-

[06:26] Speaker 2: But then what I'm talking about-

[06:27] Speaker 3: ... it's not the-

[06:27] Speaker 2: ... the out-of-pocket seems to have increased-

[06:29] Speaker 3: Right.

[06:29] Speaker 2: ... for most people.

[06:30] Speaker 3: Right.

[06:30] Speaker 2: Most people you talk to, like, they go to the doctor and the copay is more and the, the uninsured portions are more and it just seems like it's becoming a snowball out of control. You know, healthcare costs in this country just came to- seem to keep rising and rising. I know, much like you, I have a lot of friends that are from all over the world and it's funny, I have a lot of friends that are from the UK that have said, "If I, if I ever get critically ill, I'm, I'm gonna go back to England or I'm gonna go back to Italy because the costs are so much more safer."

[07:04] Speaker 3: Yeah. And the outcomes are better quite frankly, which is sad.

[07:07] Speaker 2: (coughs) True.

[07:08] Speaker 3: So, um, they have... But every other country, uh, developed country has, um, nationalized health insurance that, uh, their taxes cover. And I know that, again, not to get into politics, um, but we poo-hoo that in the United States. But the definition of socialized medicine is Medicare and it works.

[07:31] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[07:31] Speaker 3: Everybody likes it.

[07:32] Speaker 2: Exactly.

[07:32] Speaker 3: Nobody's, nobody's saying they hate Medicare. It pays.

[07:35] Speaker 2: Well, and the sad part about-

[07:36] Speaker 3: Everybody participates.

[07:38] Speaker 2: ... is that, I think is what's missing. I think a lot of people don't-

[07:41] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[07:42] Speaker 2: ... understand. There's been a stigma-

[07:44] Speaker 3: Right.

[07:44] Speaker 2: ... system attached to socialized medicine and when people hear it, they automatically, you know, they picture the Third Reich marching through Germany and it's like-

[07:52] Speaker 3: (laughs) .

[07:52] Speaker 2: ... "No, that's, that's not what we're talking about here." It's like, you know-

[07:56] Speaker 3: Right.

[07:56] Speaker 2: ... you're already have it, it's just not called that.

[08:00] Speaker 3: Right. Right. And it works. Medicare works. Everybody loves it.

[08:06] Speaker 2: (laughs) Quite frankly it works better than private insurance.

[08:06] Speaker 3: There's... I have never met a 65-year-old... Yeah, I've never met a 65-year-old that hates Medicare and doesn't think it's good. They, they all love it.

[08:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's what I was saying. Qu- quite frankly, it seems to work better than, than private m- insurance.

[08:22] Speaker 3: Yeah. In some ways it does.

[08:23] Speaker 2: And it's kind of remarkable.

[08:25] Speaker 3: Yeah. It does. Well-

[08:26] Speaker 2: So going back, so you grew up in Erie, Pennsylvania, if I'm not mistaken.

[08:31] Speaker 3: I, I did. Erie, PA.

[08:33] Speaker 2: So I've seen, I've seen-

[08:34] Speaker 3: Shout-out to Erie, PA.

[08:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen the bronze, yeah, the bronze statue is still there.

[08:38] Speaker 3: (laughs) .

[08:38] Speaker 2: The, um... So growing up, I mean, obviously, I'm sure running around the playground as, as a young girl you didn't think, "I'm gonna grow (laughs) up to be a healthcare consultant." Where was it that you kind of discovered this and how did you point yourself towards it?

[08:59] Speaker 3: You know, that's a funny story. So I definitely didn't think about, um, healthcare, uh, consulting, but I did actually, back in the day, want to be a nurse. Um, so in high school, Fairview, Pennsylvania, um, applied to-

[09:14] Speaker 2: See, knowing you now, there's part of me that would obviously think... I couldn't picture like, a six or seven-year-old girl on the playground wanting to be a healthcare consultant, but then there is part of me that could see you standing on top of the slide saying, "Have you guys thought about your healthcare?"

[09:30] Speaker 3: (laughs) .

[09:30] Speaker 2: "I mean, are your parents really getting the most out of their program?" (laughs) .

[09:36] Speaker 3: I was very precocious and problematic when I was a child. (laughs) . I definitely was not-

[09:41] Speaker 2: Not good.

[09:41] Speaker 3: ... one that, uh, was sitting and behaving with their, with their dress on. (laughs) I was a tomboy, um, definitely, uh, I was a handful. I'll just leave it at that. My poor parents. But, um, I was the last child in the bunch and, um, you know, just ran around with my German shepherd, but, um, I went to Penn State and, uh, Penn State's a fantastic, uh, college, university and I found the College of Health and Human Development and I really was thinking about nursing, um, and nutrition, um, and ended up in health policy and administration, which, um, led me to my career. So I've kind of been in this space for a very long time, let's just leave it at that, uh, a couple decades, um, and I love it.

[10:34] Speaker 3: I do feel like I am able to make a difference, um, for the cost of healthcare for, for the average employee and their family, but much more, you know, um, not to get in the weeds, but more than cost and affordability, um, I think employers and, and people in the US need to understand the American healthcare system is about making money.

[10:59] Speaker 2: Sure.

[10:59] Speaker 3: And it's sad because if you get cancer, the, the money-making element in cancer treatment is billions and billions of dollars. So they don't get paid to cure you or keep you from getting cancer, they get paid to treat your cancer, and, um, it's competitive to, to get people into their facilities to treat them with cancer. And I'm not saying there's any nefariousness about it, but it is a money generating machine and where you get cancer treatment matters. So for employers, cancer's the number one cost driver in the US for employers today and we're seeing a huge surge in early onset cancer. So people under 30 getting cancer is up 30% in the last five to eight years and it's significant. And people, professionals in our industry are talking about it 'cause we're trying to figure out why, um, and a lot of people have anecdotal feelings about why. It could be the plastic, it could be the food, um, it could be viruses that are, are newly affecting our bodies.

[12:09] Speaker 3: Genetically, as human beings, we haven't changed much, so it's not genetics, um, it is definitely environmental, but what in the environment is causing that?

[12:17] Speaker 2: But it is interesting that you don't see the same rates in other countries.Like it doesn't track across the board.

[12:26] Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean-

[12:26] Speaker 2: Like the level of cancers in say the United States versus the level of cancers in Italy are significantly different.

[12:34] Speaker 3: Yeah. And, and it, it is (laughs) it is attributable to our food and what's in our food, uh, and what we're ingesting on a daily basis and definitely the plastic in our environments, right? Um, and our food packaging. You know, you get a loaf of bread and it comes in a plastic bag. So, uh, particles of that get on your food and then you eat it and it stays in your body. So, it is concerning. It's concerning for employers because these people are workers. You know, if you're under 50, you're, you're employed, um, and it requires a completely different strategy, uh, than somebody that's 80 or 70, right, on Medicare. So, it is a challenge. It's something that's facing us and it's something that we need to really focus on. How do we get people to the highest quality of care at the lowest cost? And there actually is a way to do it.

[13:30] Speaker 3: So there is, um, new, uh, I, you know, you've heard me speak before at conferences but, um, I liken the American healthcare system to technology and medical advancements as George Jetson and our benefits plans and with our employer groups is Fred, Fred Flintstone. And hopefully people in the audience can relate to that and understand what I'm saying but, um, it, it probably dates me. But, um-

[13:57] Speaker 2: Those are the two that I understand.

[14:00] Speaker 3: (laughs) Um, yeah, so I, we need to capture some of the new stuff and put those elements into our healthcare plans so people can take advantage of them. Like genetic testing. Simple things that are readily available and not expensive.

[14:17] Speaker 2: And, and that kind of brings me to another point that, and you touched on it. I think a lot of people don't realize that they have a little bit more control over their treatment and that there are alternatives. And I'm not talking about, you know, somebody taking you down to a creek and putting leeches on you. But I mean there's alternatives in medicine that people don't realize like MD Anderson and some of the other ones. You know, can you speak to that a little bit about say if somebody does get the unfortunate diagnosis, what, what then?

[14:51] Speaker 3: Well, it's really, really critical and m- like life altering to go and get the proper test done when you're diagnosed. So the biomarker test. Understanding, you know, breast cancer for me would be breast different than breast cancer for the person sitting next to me because genetically we're different and we have different enzymes in our body and we react differently to medicines. So if, you know, second opinions. Um, Walmart did a, uh, a Cancer Center of Excellence strategy in their healthcare, uh, benefits and they, I think they partnered with, uh, the Cleveland Clinic, um, and the first 10 people from Arkansas that they sent to the Cleveland Clinic, eight were properly diagnosed but the path of treatment changed, and two people were misdiagnosed. They didn't even have cancer and they were going to be treated for cancer, uh, locally.

[15:45] Speaker 3: With that second opinion they were able to see, um, the pharmacogenomic test and I know that's a big word but if you take it and break it down it's pharma, medicines, co, with, uh, genomics and that's your genomic makeup. So the pharmacogenomic test is a mouth swab and it's a couple hundred dollars. It's, it's not expensive in the, in the, in the big scheme of things, right? And if you do that pharmacogenomic test you can tell what medications will work more effectively for somebody than others. Um, I will tell you that chemo and radiation were developed in 1967. They're old technologies and they may not be the best course of treatment for somebody. Maybe the best course of treatment for somebody is immunotherapy, right? So if you look at MD Anderson which you mentioned, um, there's a guy there named Jim Allison.

[16:41] Speaker 3: He was actually on a billboard in Chicago not too long ago, but he won the Nobel Prize for medicine in 2018 and he discovered, um, and perfected immunotherapy which he asked a question that, you know, you sit and you think like why didn't any other scientists ask this question in cancer treatment before? But he said, "You know, why don't our good cells, our T cells, our immune systems seek out and destroy cancer cells the way they do any other virus?" Right? We, we have a, an incredibly complicated human body that is a machine and we look for viruses, we look for bacteria and our T cells go and shut them down so we don't get sick. But it doesn't work that way with some cancers. And he said, "Why? Why don't our T cells do that?" And fabulously, he figured out that they were covered with a protein, um, and I'm, I'm not a clinician so I'm, I'm simp- simplistically describing this and, and, uh, you know, remember I'm not clinical.

[17:40] Speaker 3: Um, but he discovered a way to take the protein off the cancer cells so our T cells can see it and know that it's a foreign entity and knows that we need to go get it. So it's, it was protecting itself with this covering, um, to hide against the immune system. And then he took pieces of the cancer cell and pieces of, you know, our immune system and used the mRNA technology which is the same that we, uh, did with the, uh, COVID vaccine. Again, not political. Science-based factual evidence teaching our T cells to recognize the cancer cells. And the difference with immunotherapy is your T cells and your immune system will go seek out and find that cancer cell no matter where it is in your body. So when you're targeting radiation on a, a particular, you know, tumor-Those cancer biomarkers are moving through your body, it's not just staying there.

[18:41] Speaker 3: So you're treating-

[18:42] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[18:42] Speaker 3: ... one part of your body and then it shows up some place else three years later because the cancer cells have moved. So immunotherapy will, will teach your T cells, your own immune system, to go seek out the cancer cells no matter where they are in your body. And people are going to the wrong places for cancer care, like local hospitals that don't even know anything. It takes 17 years for something to be proven effective in the United States for it to trickle down into common practice in, you know, oncology and hospitals across the country. It's really, with AI I hope that, um, AI is gonna speed it up. Um, and, you know, people are, physicians and hospitals and doctors are gonna be able to look up certain types of cancer. I did the, uh, pharmacogenomic test and you know me, I'm always kind of, like, trying things out, uh, myself to see, like, what is that? Let me see if it works. And there's a whole host of cancer drugs that will not work for me.

[19:43] Speaker 3: So I don't have the enzyme to break those drugs down and make them effective, so can you imagine a doctor putting me on Tamoxifen? It would be six to eight months before they figured out that it wasn't working for me. So I'm (overlapping)

[19:56] Speaker 2: Well and I think that's why there's so many failures in it. And I, and you know, you told-

[20:01] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[20:01] Speaker 2: ... me something. I mean, how many other things are we using that were developed in 1967, have really never had a change to the process and we're still doing the, the exact same way? I think what we're talking about, and I think one of the things people need to be more aware of, is, you know, there have been, you know, strides and advances made in cancer treatment and cancer discovery and diagnosis, and I think the critical part is, you know, getting ahead of it.

[20:33] Speaker 2: So doing the tests-

[20:34] Speaker 3: Right.

[20:35] Speaker 2: ... and getting... and then looking at all of your options. So I've had a little bit of experience with this myself personally. As you know, I sit on a board of a, of a retired thoroughbred horse farmer. I did, I'm, I'm not on it active anymore, I'm more of an advisor. But we had a horse, very famous horse in fact, named Alphabet Soup. Alphabet Soup was a world championship winner, it actually won the world championship several years back, Breeders' Cup. And he was a very light skinned w- white horse. And white horses are no different than fair skinned people. They are more prone to, you know, melanoma and different things.

[21:12] Speaker 2: And he developed skin cancer and he had-

[21:15] Speaker 3: Aw.

[21:16] Speaker 2: ... um, tumors on his nose and on his back, like a rump. And there was a company that was actually affiliated with MD Anderson out of Florida that did more animal treatments and they came up, took biopsies, developed those therapies you were talking about, came back, and treated him. And those tumors actually dried up and fell off, and I saw it myself. It, they vanished, which was a- amazing, and they vanished in a matter of about eight weeks.

[21:49] Speaker 2: And the horse went on a real-

[21:49] Speaker 3: Isn't that crazy that the horse is getting better treatment than some, (laughs) South Americans?

[21:54] Speaker 2: Well, the horse is more open-minded.

[21:57] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[21:58] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[21:58] Speaker 3: Amen to that. Horses are beautiful.

[22:01] Speaker 2: (laughs) But, you know, they don't have preconceived notions, you know, they remember what happened this morning and that's about it. So... but no, it was, it was remarkable to watch it because the, the tumors literally just dried up and fell off.

[22:19] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[22:19] Speaker 2: And, you know, I mean historically people think that's just a horse. The treatment for a horse is kind of remarkably similar to the treatment for a human and generally if something like that had happened eventually, you know, you would have lost the fight because it would have spread and you would have just had to, you know, do the right thing by the horse and put him down. And the, um, that horse went through that treatment and lived, don't quote me on this, but I mean, another eight, ten years.

[22:50] Speaker 3: Wow.

[22:50] Speaker 2: And he ended up passed old age. But, he did pass, but it was like, you know, at a regular, you know, old age for a horse, late 20s. So it's pretty remarkable when, you know, the technology is out there, but I think what's missing is people's awareness of it. And you kind of touched on it that it's, you know, it's a profit driven industry, there's a lot of money in certain types of treatments, and there is a certain, I mean, I'll say, you probably can't say it, but it does feel like there is a certain protection for some of those treatments.

[23:27] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[23:27] Speaker 2: Like they try to guide people towards that because there is, you know, partnerships or advantages, whatever you want to call it. But there's-

[23:36] Speaker 3: Well and that's the thing now-

[23:37] Speaker 2: ... there's things that they do-

[23:37] Speaker 3: ... you know, taking... yeah, taking the nefarious part out. I, you know, oncologists, you know, I, I believe, uh, that doctors and, and nurses are o- obviously, uh, in the, in the industry and in that profession because they wanna help people, they want to make them well. I think it's just that's what they know and they don't understand the advancements that have happened in the last five years. I mean, we're seeing more change in healthcare in the next five years than we have in the last 50.

[24:10] Speaker 3: So it's-

[24:10] Speaker 2: That's amazing.

[24:10] Speaker 3: ... changing so rapidly, it's hard for them to keep up. You know, you see 15 patients a day or maybe 20 patients a day and then on top of that we're asking them to keep up with all this medical advancement, which is why AI is going to be so critically important. And it's also aggregating anecdotal data so that we can see trends better and see patterns better. Like, why are people under 50 getting cancer at a higher prevalency rate-And it was something that was anecdotally discussed among doctors like, "Oh, I saw four pa-" you know, uh, oncologists. "I saw four patients this week that were under 40 with colorectal cancer." Th- that's unusual.

[24:54] Speaker 3: So they were aggregating-

[24:55] Speaker 2: And that really does-

[24:56] Speaker 3: ... data anecdotally.

[24:57] Speaker 2: ... point to something environmental or something in that area, wouldn't it? I mean, if you have four people in the same area with the same type of cancer in a na- in a certain age group, wouldn't that point to something in that area?

[25:11] Speaker 3: Uh, potentially, but I think we're seeing it across the country. So potentially, and I agree with you. You know, is it the water supply? I mean, I think people need to dig into it more and the people that we count on to do that is governmental agencies, and, um, I'm gonna be bold-

[25:30] Speaker 2: Scary. (laughs)

[25:30] Speaker 3: ... they're failing us right now. (laughs)

[25:32] Speaker 2: (laughs) Shocking.

[25:35] Speaker 3: So-

[25:35] Speaker 2: You're telling us-

[25:36] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[25:36] Speaker 2: ... the government is failing in some manner. What a shock.

[25:39] Speaker 3: Hmm.

[25:40] Speaker 2: (laughs) This is gonna be dark side.

[25:41] Speaker 3: Yeah. I wanna go back and start-

[25:44] Speaker 2: So-

[25:44] Speaker 3: ... talking about horses again. (laughs)

[25:47] Speaker 2: (laughs) So to jump back and forth 'cause I wanna, I really want people-

[25:50] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[25:50] Speaker 2: ... to understand a little bit, and I know you, I know you don't like talking about yourself, but we're going to anyhow. So I mean-

[25:55] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[25:55] Speaker 2: ... going back, you know, you go to Penn State, you get into an insurance carrier I'm assuming. It's after graduation.

[26:03] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[26:03] Speaker 2: And then, you know, how does it evolve for you? Because you obviously go from that to being a national speaker to, you know, top healthcare consultant and, you know, 50 women we admire.

[26:17] Speaker 3: Oh, you're so kind. Well, after Penn State I did go to work for one of the, um, we call them BUCA carriers, the national large carriers, uh, one of the largest carriers in the country and I worked there for, I don't know, 10 to 15 years. I managed national accounts, um, in my, my last stint I was their youngest manager. Um, and I kind of grew up there. They trained me, they put me through group school, and I kind of just learned the industry from the inside out. And then I decided, you know, I wanna, I, I don't like everything I'm seeing. I think there's a better path for me. Um, and I went to work for, you know, one of the largest, uh, consulting firms in the country. Um, and then I moved to, uh, my current position almost 25 years ago. So I've been working for, uh, Marsh for 25 years and, um, I do love what I do. I... So now I, I have a team. I have a wonderful team. I love my team. They're like my family.

[27:21] Speaker 3: Um, and we are national speakers, so we go to a bunch of conferences, uh, every year and I'm either a, a, a speaker, uh, in the conference or an opening keynote speaker to the CFO conferences. And I think, you know, um, what I hear back from, you know, I'll give you an example like the CFO conferences that I do, is this is so critically important and people don't understand it because it's so complicated. There's so-

[27:49] Speaker 2: Yep.

[27:49] Speaker 3: ... many hands in the pot and it's so complicated to unwind what is going on. Like in pharmacy, you know, the pharmacy benefit managers, the insurance companies that just do pharmacy are on the front page of the newspaper every single day now for the, um, misalignment, I'll call it, with employers. Employers are trying to lower the cost of medications so that they pay less and their employees and their family members can go to the pharmacy and a- afford their medicine. Right? It's important to take the medicine in order to treat the illnesses that we're seeing. And there's a misalignment because the insurance market is trying to make a lot of profit and adding cost. Instead of trying to help employers lower the cost, in many cases they have programs and fees and, um, rebates and GPO fees and file fees and all kinds of program fees and clinical program fees that are just cost additive, um, and maybe aren't driving down, uh, the cost of healthcare.

[28:55] Speaker 3: We want the lowest net cost drug on the formulary and if they're taking a part of the rebate, they don't want that. They want the one with the highest rebate because that's how they make money. So there's a misalignment in the industry and I think employers need people like me to kind of unwind it and explain it. And you know, the funny thing that people don't really understand is the vast majority of employers in the United States offering insurance to employees are self-funded. So it's not the insurance company that's paying the bills, it's the employer.

[29:28] Speaker 2: It- it's your employer. And I can-

[29:30] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[29:31] Speaker 2: ... as you know, I've, as you know, I mean, I've been senior vice president of corporations and I've, and my background is marketing and, and sales and I can tell you firsthand from companies that I've been involved in and on the executive team, we've run into financial problems due to, um, too many employees in one year having catastrophic illnesses. And it, it affected-

[29:58] Speaker 3: Yeah, high cost claimants.

[29:59] Speaker 2: ... the company. I mean, it-

[29:59] Speaker 3: Yep.

[30:00] Speaker 2: ... literally, it, it affected the company to the point where we had to make, um, adjustments.

[30:07] Speaker 3: You're-

[30:07] Speaker 2: And I don't think most people realize that.

[30:09] Speaker 3: ... and you're seeing that more today. Yeah. Mark, and you're seeing that more today unfortunately. The high cost claimants are driving everything. It's 90% of your dollars being spent by 5% of the population and these new specialty drugs, um, they're driving cost, you know, 60% of the cost on pharmacy for an employer is 2% of the population on a specialty medication. So again, kind of looking at how we've advanced in medicine, but these specialty medications are biologic living organisms. So you remember back in the day when we were kids-You know, we went to the pharmacy, we got a bottle of pills and you took 'em until they were finished and they were flat chemical pills in a bottle. And today, you know, we have these specialty medications that are living organisms, injectables that are thousands of dollars, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars for one employee, um, and it's driving 60% of the cost and only 2% of the population are on one of those.

[31:13] Speaker 2: Wow. And what's amazing to me, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like some of the ... and I hate to use the word alternative, but, uh, o- other treatments, I- I'll, I'll say it that way, like MD Anderson or like, you know, the other one that comes to mind is we have a, and we, we promote them here on the show is, we have a, a group that's near and dear to our heart, No Fallen Heroes. No Fallen Heroes is headed up by a former Top Gun adversary pilot, good friend of mine, Matt Wiz Buckley, um, everybody knows my background was navy aviation. I didn't make it to the fleet but I was close. Matt did make it in the fleet. Matt was actually the real life jester that was portrayed in the Top Gun movie. He was the adversary pilot that taught navy pilots how to dog fight. Since Matt has gotten out of the navy, he started a group called No Fallen Heroes.

[32:10] Speaker 2: They promote like the micro juic- dosing of certain drugs that help, you know, our former heroes, including guys like Marcus Luttrell went through his- their tr- program.

[32:23] Speaker 3: True.

[32:23] Speaker 2: And Matt showed where this saved the VA and insurance companies hundreds of thousands of dollars in treatments for PTSD and other s- sorts of, you know, things that the veterans and first responders face. And, you know, as Matt said, you know, unfortunately the navy does an exceptional job of training us when we go in. They're a little weak on the exit program.

[32:53] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[32:53] Speaker 2: So a lot of guys have a hard time adjusting to civilian life. Real- a real hard time. You know-

[32:59] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[32:59] Speaker 2: ... sometimes they've seen things or experienced things that they, they have never really fully dealt with, and this is where Matt's program kind of steps in. My point being though, is that his program, which would be considered alternative medicine, is kind of frowned upon when in fact it's more cost-effective and has a higher success rate. And it's been proven-

[33:24] Speaker 3: And it's approved in other countries.

[33:26] Speaker 2: ... Absolutely. In fact when he started No Fallen Heroes, he would raise the money to send these veterans to another country to get this done

[33:36] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I've read the studies.

[33:39] Speaker 2: And today, now finally-

[33:41] Speaker 3: I've read the studies and it-

[33:41] Speaker 2: ... they're starting to get it here. Like Colorado-

[33:44] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[33:45] Speaker 2: ... has it. There's a place in Texas that has a program and that's where he sends ... he does a lot in Aspen. But the point is, it's like, this is something that should be widespread. And I'm not talking about anything that's like a theory or a, or some hair-brained thing. Matt's testified in front of Congress about this multiple times, even-

[34:04] Speaker 3: Right.

[34:04] Speaker 2: ... you know, late in the 25. He's a real well ... you can look him up, I mean, he's a very prominent advocate for this because he truly wants to help these veterans because he went through it himself as a fighter pilot. When he came out, he'd dealt with these things and-

[34:23] Speaker 3: Right.

[34:23] Speaker 2: ... and it almost destroyed his marriage, you know. Unfortunately it didn't-

[34:27] Speaker 3: It's hard. It's, it's very hard. They're, they're doing, um, all kinds of brain scans and brain studies and what they're finding, um, and you know I have, uh, two in the navy.

[34:39] Speaker 2: Yep.

[34:39] Speaker 3: So, uh, navy's near and dear to my heart as well. Um, but they're finding that it's not the big explosions, uh, it's not just the big explosions, right, that damage the brain. It's the constant small, um, explosions and gun firings that they go through in their training. So when one of our, uh, service people goes through the training and they're shooting guns every day and they're, they're training on, you know, shooting missiles and all of the things that, you know, we need them to be capable and confident with, those cause little tiny fishers- fissures in the brain and over time they heal and, um, my understanding is that's what's causing the plaques, is what's causing, uh, some of the issues and the depression issues and it's so prevalent. And you're so right that we spend gobs of money training our people and then when we're done with them, we don't take care of them and it's heartbreaking.

[35:44] Speaker 3: Um, I, uh, am a, a f- uh, supporter of the Navy SEAL Foundation, um, and they help the families of the fallen, um, and, um, it's, it's very concerning, uh, the number of people that have, you know, traumatic brain damage and they're not being helped and they're not being treated on the back end. It's so true. It's, it's very concerning.

[36:08] Speaker 2: And, you know, there was a study that came out late last year that, um, fire pilots dealt with a lot of brain injuries and they, they attributed, especially navy, because of the launch.

[36:20] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[36:20] Speaker 2: You know, they had tracked it back to, you know, there was some, you know, issues with that. And I know several of the guys, you know, like, you know, M- Matt's experience that I know a couple of the guys that Matt and I know that are Blue Angels, they've experienced it, and it's, um ... The part b- part I'm getting to though is, I guess the part that's hard to understand is why when you have a alternative program like MD Anderson or like what Matt's doing with No Fallen Heroes, is that not-... better accepted because it's actually more cost-effective with a higher success rate. The previous treatments for a lot of these issues actually don't have that good of a success rate because a lot of the guys that Matt gets in No Fall Heroes have already gone through years of treatment at the VA or through, you know, conventional medicine with very little success and, you know, usually one or two treatments with him and their life turns around.

[37:22] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[37:22] Speaker 2: I mean, I think the most prominent one, you know, is Marcus Luttrell, the Lone Seal. You know what I mean? He was a Navy SEAL. He went through some horrific experiences. He was the only one of his unit that made it back out of a mission and he dealt with some problems for decades and then-

[37:40] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[37:40] Speaker 2: ... he met Matt and went through the program. Night and day. And he speaks about it. He's gone in front of Congress as well as an advocate for this. But the part that's frustrating is, you know, you have a treatment plan that's proven at a lower cost and is still met with pushback.

[38:00] Speaker 3: Yeah. So, um, I would say that those two comparisons are apples and oranges. You know, MD Anderson is approved by the FDA. Immunotherapy is approved by the FDA. They're beyond clinical trials. They're-

[38:12] Speaker 2: And I agree, and I apologize-

[38:13] Speaker 3: ... proven effective and you can access those-

[38:15] Speaker 2: ... I didn't mean to, I didn't mean to get your thoughts like that. I guess what I'm getting at is-

[38:16] Speaker 3: Yeah. No, no, no. But you can access those-

[38:18] Speaker 2: ... why aren't there more doctors that are sending people there?

[38:21] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question and I think it's the lack of knowledge is my, my, um...

[38:26] Speaker 2: And that's fair. No, right?

[38:27] Speaker 3: Yeah. I-

[38:28] Speaker 2: That, that's very fair. They just aren't aware.

[38:31] Speaker 3: Right. But the, but the, but the, the treatment with LSD and some of the other medications that the, that the, uh, that you're talking about with the, with the Navy, those just aren't, um, approved yet in the United States. But as you know, you can go to another country, um, and get those treatments which is problematic 'cause we need it to be available. If it's proven effective, we need it to be available.

[38:57] Speaker 2: It needs to be done correctly.

[38:58] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[38:58] Speaker 2: You know, and the other thing is too, and this is one thing that Matt r- really advocates for, and I apologize. I didn't mean to make it sound like it was the same as MD. I, I, I realize MD is much different, but I guess what I was getting at is more of why is the, why is, are some of these things not pro- now, now there have been some advancements made with what Matt's doing with No Fallen Heroes to where there are two, I think three locations now in the US where it is approved and they can do it legally.

[39:26] Speaker 3: Right.

[39:26] Speaker 2: And, um, the, you know, the, the beauty of it is they're, they're, they're working towards getting it more mainstream and approved. But the, but the bigger challenge I see with both, where they do have something in common, is that it seems to be something that people almost come across on their own or through a friend rather than having a healthcare provider. And, and I think you're right. I, it very well could be just a lack of knowledge that the healthcare providers aren't knowledgeable about this enough to say, "You know, this isn't something I can do, but I think you should go talk to these people."

[40:07] Speaker 3: Right. Well, and that's, that's where employers come in. So when I speak to these national audiences, that's the one thing that I'm saying. If anybody's going to change the way we access healthcare in the United States, it's going to be the employers because the employers are the payers in the system. So they need to set up second opinion programs for people that are diagnosed with cancer. They need to have navigation support tools for employees and their families of you get cancer and here's where you go, here's who you talk to, here's who will help you try to figure out, you know, what you need to do next, what's your plan of treatment, what's your course of action. And those programs are extremely effective. So we have to take it on ourselves because the healthcare system isn't going to do it on its own. It's too fragmented.

[41:03] Speaker 2: And that's-

[41:04] Speaker 3: It's... Yeah. It's-

[41:05] Speaker 2: ... that's a great point.

[41:05] Speaker 3: It's up to the, it's sadly up to the employers in the United States.

[41:08] Speaker 2: No, but that-

[41:09] Speaker 3: It is.

[41:09] Speaker 2: ... but you know what I'm saying. But there's two ways to look at it. I mean, that's a brilliant idea, believe it's you to come up with it, but it's like it is, you know, that is genius that you, you know, that is a great way to tackle this rather than, you know, it is hard to compete with tens of thousands of pharmaceutical reps running around promoting things to doctors. But if you can get employers to encourage their, their employees to take more ownership and control of their own healthcare and that there are options-

[41:39] Speaker 3: Exactly.

[41:40] Speaker 2: ... to educate people that, that hey, you know what? There really are alternatives and options here that you can explore 'cause I do think that's another breakdown in our system. I think if peop- the average American goes to the doctor, doctor says, "Okay, you need to go over here for this treatment," they just think that's what you do. They don't even question it.

[42:00] Speaker 3: Right.

[42:01] Speaker 2: It's like, "Okay."

[42:02] Speaker 3: Right.

[42:02] Speaker 2: "Well, I'm going over there."

[42:02] Speaker 3: And you know, that's generational, Mark. That is, you just hit, you just hit on a very important point. That is generational. So our parents never asked questions of doctors. They were like, "Well, that's a doctor. He, he or she knows way more than I do and, and they are going to lead us to where I need to go."

[42:22] Speaker 2: And the idea of a second opinion was a last resort. That was almost like-

[42:26] Speaker 3: Right.

[42:26] Speaker 2: ... oh, this is the funeral home so I may as well go try it.

[42:30] Speaker 3: Well, and now I'm saying get out in front of it early and make sure that you're going to get the second opinion first. Like you get a cancer-

[42:38] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[42:38] Speaker 3: ... diagnosis, the first thing you should do is go get a second opinion. There was a brilliant woman, um, worked for a, a very large company. I, I'm gonna try to tell you this story without, without any names. But she was di- she was the president of this huge company. Huge.And, uh, she got breast cancer and she said, "I'm in the industry and I know people and I went to four different doctors and got four completely different diagnoses with the same scans, the same blood work," (laughs) the same visit.

[43:15] Speaker 3: So it's not-

[43:16] Speaker 2: Wow.

[43:16] Speaker 3: ... a precise science. That's part of the problem as well. You look at something and people have different opinions on how to treat it, different opinions on how to tackle it. Um, AI is gonna help us though because it is aggregating data and looking at scans and picking out things that the human eye might miss. So, um, it does require obviously a lot of human intervention but I think we can use AI as a tool, uh, that can help us, not on its own, but help us. Like reading scans, it's better at reading scans. First of all, it reads scans faster and it finds things that the human eye might miss, right?

[43:57] Speaker 3: So it's good for a double-check, run it through AI first, the radiology report and then where it's pinpointing potential problems, then give it to the radiologist for them, you know, him or her to say, "Oh yeah, I do see that now." So I think you-

[44:15] Speaker 2: Well, I think the, you know, ... what strikes me, the common thread seems to be information. And I'm not trying to oversimplify it, but-

[44:24] Speaker 3: No, uh, you're right. You're right.

[44:25] Speaker 2: ... it, it, it breaks it down to get information and I think that is where, um, and I know you don't like take credit for stuff like this, but I mean, I think that's where what you do is so remarkable and makes such a difference. And as I've said before, no question saves lives. But what people don't realize is, and not just you, in all fairness, I mean, every, the, the other consultants, everybody that does what you do, I don't think people realize the hours and hours and hours that you put into research and study and taking the time to read these clinicals and read these research papers.

[45:01] Speaker 2: And in all fairness, and I'm not trying to pick on these, the, any profession, but in some ways you're kind of filtering everything and picking out the usable information that's most accurate to be able to give to these healthcare providers and employees, employers, because they don't have the time to do-

[45:23] Speaker 3: Right.

[45:23] Speaker 2: ... what you do. I mean, look at the time, the hours that you spend putting into that type of research and I, I dare say the, the average doctor probably doesn't have that. You know, you do it because that's what you do, but you're, then you can bring it and break it down and present it in a way that these people can actually use it.

[45:48] Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I do love listening to these things and it is actually enjoyable, so it's almost like a hobby that I listen to these Harvard Medical podcasts. And, um, I just sat through, um, uh, a Dr. Bikman, uh, I don't know if you've ever heard his podcast, but really helping people understand insulin and glucose and diabetes and how you can undo, um, prediabetics by just understanding how to eat food. And we should be teaching our kids in school the, the health, uh, ramifications of what you're eating and how you're eating it.

[46:26] Speaker 3: You know, um-

[46:27] Speaker 2: Don't eat hotdogs for breakfast.

[46:29] Speaker 3: ... I know you love restaurants. I'm going to pick on you for a minute, Marg, 'cause I know you love restaurants.

[46:33] Speaker 2: (laughs) Don't eat hotdogs for breakfast.

[46:34] Speaker 3: (laughs) You're like me, you're a foodie. Um, but you go to a restaurant and what's the first thing that happens when you sit down at a restaurant? They ask you what you want to drink and they big- bring you a loaf of bread with butter.

[46:45] Speaker 2: Absolutely.

[46:45] Speaker 3: And carbohydrates and bread-

[46:47] Speaker 2: Yep. That's, that's your, they did.

[46:48] Speaker 3: Spikes your glucose. Yeah.

[46:50] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[46:50] Speaker 3: And, and it's the absolute worst thing to start eating, is a piece of bread with an empty stomach and a glass of wine. I know we love it.

[46:58] Speaker 2: Well, rarely is my stomach empty.

[47:00] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[47:00] Speaker 2: So it's probably not as much of a threat for me.

[47:03] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[47:03] Speaker 2: (laughs) As Buck puts it-

[47:05] Speaker 3: Listen, you and I are kindred spirits on that.

[47:06] Speaker 2: ... you know, I do six meals a day. (laughs) What's that?

[47:11] Speaker 3: (laughs) You and I are kindred spirits on that, although I don't eat hotdogs for breakfast.

[47:16] Speaker 2: It... But see, it's really not a hotdog. We've had this ongoing debate. (laughs)

[47:21] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[47:21] Speaker 2: It's gourmet breakfast sausage. (laughs)

[47:25] Speaker 3: (laughs) It's a hot dog. (laughs)

[47:29] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[47:29] Speaker 3: Oh gosh. Yeah, so-

[47:31] Speaker 2: But the truth, there is, the truth, the information is so critical because most people don't... uh, you know, they aren't aware of this, which is part of the reason I wanted to do this, because I don't think people are aware that you have options, that you can control your treatments and your healthcare. And I will tell you, and you could tell a lot more than I could, I, I won't name names, but I have a very good friend of mine, he actually, him and I were involved in business at one time, and he was diagnosed with stage four esophageal cancer. Basically went home and thought, this is, th- they basically told him, "There's nothing you can do." And this was not that long ago. And he, he, a really good friend of ours said to him, "Get off the couch, quit moping, and go get another opinion." And he's like, "What difference is it gonna make?" He goes, "I don't know, but it, it can't hurt anything. And if they tell you the same thing, you've lost nothing." So he did.

[48:33] Speaker 2: He goes to U of M, University of Michigan, and University of Michigan partnered with Cleveland Clinic and they said, "We're gonna call it stage three, and we need you to understand there is no treatment, cure for what you have. There's only treatment." So they put him through it and he was the second person in the Midwest that had ever had this, this procedure done where they removed part of his esophagus.... he's been cancer-free now for going on 14 years.

[49:04] Speaker 3: Wow.

[49:05] Speaker 2: Had he listened to the first doctor that he went to, he wouldn't be here.

[49:12] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[49:12] Speaker 2: I mean, the first doctor was not wrong. He had esophageal cancer.

[49:17] Speaker 3: Right.

[49:17] Speaker 2: There's no question about ... You know, I'm not saying that the doctor was wrong. What I'm saying is, I don't think people realize that with the exact same diagnosis, many times there are other tools at other people's disposal. So where one-

[49:33] Speaker 3: Well, and there's so many new things too, Mark. I mean, there's so many-

[49:37] Speaker 2: Y- yeah, absolutely. But in his case, it turned out, in all fairness, and I want to be fair to the doctor that diagnosed him originally, that doctor did not have access to the treatment that he was given.

[49:49] Speaker 3: Right.

[49:50] Speaker 2: At that time, it was declared experimental and he was allowed to get it because it was in a university hospital. But what I'm trying to get across to people is, had he never taken it upon himself to go-

[50:03] Speaker 3: Right.

[50:03] Speaker 2: ... to that university hospital, he wouldn't be with us today.

[50:07] Speaker 3: Right. Well, two things. You need to be your own advocate, right? In healthcare, period, end of story. You need to drive your own bus on healthcare. And, um, there's new things happening. So where you ... The, the point of your story is where you go matters.

[50:25] Speaker 2: Absolutely.

[50:26] Speaker 3: So-

[50:26] Speaker 2: No, that's what I'm trying to get across.

[50:27] Speaker 3: It, it really does. And, you know, if you think back-

[50:30] Speaker 2: There actually is a difference. That's what a lot of people don't realize. They think all hospitals are the same, all ... You know what I mean? And I don't think they realize there, there are ... Where you go matters.

[50:41] Speaker 3: Yes. Where you go for treatment matters. And, you know, if you look at even just some of the significant scientific breakthroughs. You know, when we were kids ... Do you remember the Jerry Lewis Telethon on, on Labor Day?

[50:53] Speaker 2: Absolutely. I love Jerry Lewis. I mean, that's the difference.

[50:57] Speaker 3: Yeah. So-

[50:57] Speaker 2: You listen to podcasts on like, you know, uh, insulin, and I listen to podcasts on Jerry Lewis and Saturday Night Live.

[51:06] Speaker 3: (laughs) Well, I listen to both, 'cause I do love those. But when we were kids, we, we watched the Jerry Lewis Telethon, uh, to raise money for muscular dystrophy, right? Kids in wheelchairs, and it was a devastating disease and their longevity was shorter, um, by far than an, uh, uh, a normal, uh, kid born in the US. (clears throat) We've all but cured it. So there's a gene therapy that will, um, recognize that the baby at birth has muscular atrophy, right? There's a problem. And they take genetic material from the baby and they bring it to a Petri dish at the pharmaceutical company, and they tweak the incorrect lettering in the human genome and they fix it with molecular scissors, proliferate that genetic material, bring it back to the baby in a 21-day infusion, and it staves off the progression of muscular dystrophy. And the, the baby's able to run and walk and l- not be confined to a wheelchair and live a normal life.

[52:06] Speaker 3: The problem with that gene therapy treatment is it's $2.3 million with the h- with the hospital stay.

[52:14] Speaker 2: Wow.

[52:14] Speaker 3: So, you know, the, the challenge that we have is that we've had these miraculous breakthroughs, right? And it's not just muscular atrophy. There's gene th- there's, you know, a plethora of gene therapies that are, are FDA approved or in clinical trials right now. Employers are afraid of these costs though, you know. Rightfully so. You get ... You know, I had an employer in Chicago that had a claim come through for $2.1 million and the CFO called me and he said, "Mary Beth, we just got wired for $2.1 million." And I said, "What's the DRG code attached-

[52:52] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[52:52] Speaker 3: ... to the, you know, the, the wire?" And he said, "Zolgensma." And I said, "You had a baby that got a gene therapy for muscular atrophy that j- the Zolgensma treatment, the gene therapy, is for that." And it is 1.3. It's gonna be, um, I'm sorry, 2.1. It's gonna be 2.3 with the hospital stay, roughly. And it's unbudgetable. And as a self-funded-

[53:15] Speaker 2: So what-

[53:15] Speaker 3: ... employer, that gets bet- that claim gets put through and then you have to wait for your stop-loss reimbursement. So, it is very traumatic for an employer to navigate these expensive gene therapies and these specialty medications, because although they're curatives, um, for je- you know, we've lived with these diseases for generations as Americans, we're solving them, but the price tag is crippling, um, our-

[53:43] Speaker 2: But what drives that?

[53:44] Speaker 3: ... entire health care-

[53:45] Speaker 2: What is it that makes that cost like that? And I, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I-

[53:49] Speaker 3: It's precision ... Yeah, no, it's precision medicine. It is preci- it's ... It is medicine for one person. So that treatment is bioengineering, uh, or genetically modifying that particular baby, individually.

[54:07] Speaker 2: Oh, I-

[54:07] Speaker 3: It's-

[54:07] Speaker 2: So it's not something that they're making ... That treatment wouldn't work the same for every child. It has to be unique to that child.

[54:15] Speaker 3: It's their genetic, uh, information. So it's literally, um, if you Google CRISPR, w- that was the, uh, original one. 10, 15 years ago I was talking about it. Um, that is where they've identified, once we understood the human genome, which was the Human Genome Project for 20 years, um, w- we now understand, we've decoded the human genome. So now we can look at genetics for, for you, Mark Otto, and we can say, "This is your genetic lettering." And then if you have a particular, um, genetic disease that runs in your family, you can see that the genetic lettering is different from you than it is for me. So we, we've gone from just generally treating things to precision medicine, where it's not treatment for all, it's treatment for one.

[55:09] Speaker 2: I would fully expect-

[55:09] Speaker 3: And it's expensive.

[55:10] Speaker 2: ... you know, decades from now, 100 years from now when the archaeologists dig me up that they'll look at it and stand around scratching their head and go, "You know, it's amazing and I, I really don't understand what, what was, makeup was but there seems to be several objects shaped like a hotdog and a couple of things"

[55:25] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[55:25] Speaker 2: "shaped like a donut that are still there." My daughter actually, my daughter which you know very well, she has, um, actually gone into psychology, which I tell people is probably so she can figure me out. (laughs)

[55:40] Speaker 3: (laughs) Well, Grace is a rock star and, uh-

[55:43] Speaker 2: For sure.

[55:43] Speaker 3: ... I hope she helps us all. (laughs) She's probably gonna be creating a cure someday for something.

[55:48] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[55:48] Speaker 3: That's amazing. Yeah.

[55:51] Speaker 2: It is amazing though to me that the, I mean that's the part to me, and that's why I think what you do is so remarkable, is the, the knowledge. And I don't even think you recognize it. I mean, I think you know it, but I mean, and I don't think you realize how impactful this is because from somebody like me who, you know, simple organism, approach it a lot more of a, um, you know, just this stuff wasn't aware. I mean, I had-

[56:19] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[56:19] Speaker 2: ... no idea before I met you that a place, MD Anderson, ever existed. I mean, and you know-

[56:25] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[56:25] Speaker 2: So then you, the first thing that hits your mind is, you know, "God, how many," you know, we, there isn't probably a family out there that hasn't been affected by cancer.

[56:35] Speaker 3: Right.

[56:35] Speaker 2: You know?

[56:36] Speaker 3: Right.

[56:36] Speaker 2: So how many people have lost people that could've been saved had they known where to go?

[56:44] Speaker 3: Well, and that's, that's the key to success and, and, um, tackling anything healthcare related is really understanding what's out there, understanding what your options are, and, you know, I, one of the, one of the, uh, podcasts that I attended a couple of weeks ago, I think it was Harvard Medical, but they were saying right out of the gate when you get a diagnosis, you must do the cancer biomarkers to understand what the most effective course of treatment is for you. And if you don't have that done right at the beginning and you get the wrong treatment, so somebody who doesn't, you know, get that biomarker, uh, analysis done and they get chemo and radiation out of, you know, from a, from a physician, from, from a hospital, it might preclude you from going into a clinical trial that would actually work for you.

[57:42] Speaker 3: So that's-

[57:43] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[57:43] Speaker 3: ... I think people don't understand if you go down the path incorrectly initially, it might actually detrimentally impact your ability to get to the right place and get to a treatment that would potentially either solve the issue or cure it or stave it off so that you have, you know, many years of life ahead of you. So, um, precision medicine is here. It's here to stay. It, it really is critical that employers educate people because they're the ones that are spending all the money. They're, they're the ones that are footing the bill. And it is absolutely less expensive, healthcare, to get somebody to the right place the first time for care versus the hit or miss hodgepodge system we have in place today.

[58:32] Speaker 2: And I think that's what we have to leave people with is number one, you know, be the captain of your ship. Recognize that you do have options, seek out the information. If you're diagnosed, heaven forbid, with cancer or somebody you know, get the test, get the biomarkers done so that you can get the proper treatment. I mean, we're, we're up against our hour here so we're gonna have to wrap up. I'd be absolutely remiss and I couldn't let you go without a couple of hard questions. Um, we are absolute restaurant freaks on this show. So what's your favorite restaurant? You're well traveled.

[59:10] Speaker 2: You've probably been more places-

[59:12] Speaker 3: (sighs)

[59:12] Speaker 2: ... than anybody I know. Um, where's your favorite place on Earth?

[59:18] Speaker 3: Uh, wow. That is such a difficult question. So my son, uh, my oldest son Nick, who you know-

[59:25] Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

[59:25] Speaker 3: ... is a foodie beyond foodies.

[59:27] Speaker 2: My son's the best at that.

[59:27] Speaker 3: Yeah. No-

[59:27] Speaker 2: Not only is she an amazing professional in, in professionally, she is probably one of the most remarkable moms and I, I would argue this with anybody, including my own. Obvious, well, my own, she prob- she has a lot of explaining to do. But-

[59:41] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[59:41] Speaker 2: ... the, um, she's, her, her two sons are remarkable. I mean she has one who is in cybersecurity in New York City. Great kid. Amazing. I shouldn't call him a kid. Great guy. You know, newly married, you know. Uh, uh, he's gonna be another MD. You can see that he's gonna rise. And then, you know, her, her other son is an officer in the Navy. Went to the Naval Academy, you know, is stationed out on the West Coast, is engaged to another Navy officer. So she is as successful if not more as a mother than she is as a professional.

[01:00:20] Speaker 2: But-

[01:00:20] Speaker 3: Yeah. And that-

[01:00:20] Speaker 2: ... back to the restaurant-

[01:00:21] Speaker 3: ... that is definitely what I'm most, most proud of. Um, but yeah. He-

[01:00:24] Speaker 2: And you should be.

[01:00:25] Speaker 3: (laughs) Thank you for that. You're sweet. So Nicky is a foodie and he really leads me down the right path. So every time he's with me, we, we, you know, he researches and takes me to these off the beaten track restaurants that are amazing. Um, some in, you know, uh, Lou, my youngest, always says, "The sketchier the area, the better." (laughs) I'm not sure I agree with that. But The Four Horsemen in Brooklyn was an amazing event for him and I. Uh, we, uh, him and his, uh, new wife, Lindsay, uh, we, we went, uh, for a brunch. Um, and it was just tapas and it was just the most amazing little bites of amazingness, um, that, uh, it was a, it was a great place to go. So if you're in Brooklyn, The Four Horsemen, um, was a great restaurant.

[01:01:17] Speaker 3: And then of course the Versace Mansion in, uh, Miami is also-

[01:01:21] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

[01:01:21] Speaker 3: ... uh, a favorite. Right?

[01:01:22] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:01:22] Speaker 3: Just the atmosphere, the food. Everything's amazing.

[01:01:27] Speaker 2: And we would be absolutely remiss if we didn't mention the Palm Miami.

[01:01:31] Speaker 3: Oh. (laughs) Of course.

[01:01:32] Speaker 2: So, if you're anywhere near the Palm anywhere, you have to go to the Palm. The Palm Miami is a special place. But we can't thank you enough for joining us. I really appreciate it. MBGrayHealthcare.com. If you have employees, you have healthcare questions, do yourself a favor, do your employees a favor, reach out to her, she can and will help you. Uh, there, there's- it is, uh, tricky. As you could tell, we talked for an hour, you could talk for six hours and still not scratch the surface. But I think the thing we need to leave people with is, take control of your own treatment. Don't just assume that that's your only option. Seek information, go get the test, get the second opinion. It could make a difference and save your life. So, thank you so much for joining us.

[01:02:21] Speaker 3: Thank you so much for-

[01:02:21] Speaker 2: I really, really appreciate it. It's been an honor.

[01:02:24] Speaker 3: My pleasure.

[01:02:25] Speaker 2: And we, we- this has been Hollywood and Horsepower with MB Gray. We appreciate you folks joining us. If you get a chance, check out Go Gaffy Apparel. Penn Entertainment, great partner of ours. Obviously, MBGrayHealthcare.com. If you have employees, you have healthcare problems. Reach out to her, she'll help you. Earnhardt Outdoors if you're looking for an adventure. And please take a minute and go look at No Fallen Heroes. You know, the people helping people, and I can tell you, the vast majority of the support comes from Matt "Wiz" Buckley. So, thank you everybody. Appreciate you being with us. Thank you, MB, for being on the show, and we will see everybody again next week.

[01:03:10] Speaker 2: (instrumental music)