00:02

Speaker 1
Okay. Good afternoon, Melbourne, good afternoon, Australia, and good day or evening to all our international listeners as well. I'm Helen Taylor. Welcome to my show, Inspired Radio. I'm here with you every Wednesday, 12 noon, Melbourne, Australia time, and Tuesday, 7:00 PM Central Time for the US, for conversations and stories to inspire you. This is the BBS Radio TV platform going live to over 190 outlets worldwide. Before I get started, I wanna thank my sponsors. Thank you to all of you that sponsor the show. You're my foundation, and you keep the show alive, so thank you very much each and every one of you. Inspired Radio is all about change and getting uncomfortable and shaking up the status quo, breaking free from limiting systems and embracing our infinite potential.

00:55

Speaker 1
My guests are here to tell their story and to reveal how they have overcome change and made- made better lives for themselves, and of course, for others, and to inspire you with their stories, because storytelling is creating the new world. So let me introduce today's guest, Madonna Santa. She has a voice that refuses to be silenced. She's a behavioral psychologist, a community worker, a fierce advocate, and an unapologetic social justice warrior. Madonna isn't someone who just studies human behavior, she challenges it, she questions it, and she calls it out. She was kicked off Facebook a long, long time ago, or for a long, long time, I should say, for speaking her truth. So instead of backing down, she just leaned in harder, because for her, the message has always been clear, your voice matters. In 2020, she put that fire into words and wrote a book, not just a piece of writing, but a statement and an invitation to think deeper. So who is Madonna Santa beyond those labels?

02:03

Speaker 1
What keeps her pushing boundaries when it would be easier to stay quiet? Let's find out. Welcome, Madonna.

02:11

Speaker 2
Wow, thank you so much. And, um, it's amazing. I'm so glad I'm here today and speaking with you. Uh, I found you to be actually quite a mirror, I love that, of the energy-

02:23

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

02:23

Speaker 2
... that, um, I bring forward. And yeah, it's really exciting to be here. Thank you so much. What an introduction.

02:30

Speaker 1
(laughs)

02:32

Speaker 2
It's interesting when someone puts your, especially your life or who you are into a little montage and you think, "Oh, yeah, that's me." And I was there nodding along-

02:42

Speaker 1
Yeah.

02:42

Speaker 2
... as you were saying it, going, "Yeah, no, yeah, that's- that's what I do. Yep, no, that's what I did." (laughs)

02:46

Speaker 1
Absolutely.

02:47

Speaker 2
Yeah.

02:47

Speaker 1
And that's why it's really nice to have other people as mirrors, isn't it? Because we know ourselves and our own energy very well, but we don't often know how it really is impacting and how other people are seeing it. So it is nice, it's valuable to get it back, yeah.

03:04

Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, that was amazing. Thank you.

03:06

Speaker 1
All right. All right. So-

03:07

Speaker 2
Who- who is Madonna Santa?

03:08

Speaker 1
Who is she? So- so, you know, if we talk to the 10-year-old Madonna-

03:14

Speaker 2
Yeah.

03:14

Speaker 1
... was she getting warned? Was she being prepared for this life that you're living right now?

03:20

Speaker 2
Absolutely, uh, when I think about a 10-year-old Madonna Santa, I was extremely quiet, I was very scared, hu- hugely fearful. Um, I used to... So fearful, and this is in my book, um, uh, called The What Will They Think Brigade?, I write about this because people, even my daughter that sees me now, I say, "I wasn't like this." I didn't, I wasn't born fierce, say, like this. I grew into it because things happened to me that gave-

03:50

Speaker 1
Yeah.

03:50

Speaker 2
... me that resilience, and I could have either been really quiet and shied into the background, but instead it actually created me to be quite fierce and walk forward. I think that part of that social justice is me saying, "I know I felt like that and I do not want to see other people, um, shrink, um, have to dim themselves to make other people comfortable anymore," and that's what I was doing.

04:12

Speaker 1
Yeah.

04:12

Speaker 2
In order to stay safe in my family and in order to, um, be... And so it was a safety mechanism in order to stay safe in my family of origin, which was extremely tumultuous. It was like being in a war basically, um, because I had an extremely alcoholic and sadistic father, um, so in order to be safe, I just shrank into the background, um, and diminished my light. I absolutely diminished who I was to make sure that I was, um, not, I guess, pointed out or picked on or raged against.

04:45

Speaker 1
So you just kind of-

04:47

Speaker 2
So much so-

04:47

Speaker 1
... faded back into the shadows, so to speak.

04:51

Speaker 2
Absolutely. So much so that at 10 years old, I would still be whispering to my mother if, like, we're at the dinner table, and back then, of course, we're in the 1980s, so everyone ate dinner together still-

05:02

Speaker 1
Yeah.

05:02

Speaker 2
... um, I would whisper what I wanted. So if I wanted her to pass the potatoes or pass the whatever, I would whisper-

05:08

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

05:09

Speaker 2
... um, in her ear, "Could you do that?" Because I was too scared to be heard, which is I would say weird for people who know me now-

05:16

Speaker 1
(laughs)

05:16

Speaker 2
... 'cause I'm the antithesis of that. Um, but when you know what it's like to, um, feel scared to be heard, the importance of being heard becomes amplified a thousand fold because you know what the opposite does to you, and it's soul-destroying, actually.

05:36

Speaker 1
Sure, yeah.

05:38

Speaker 2
Yeah.

05:38

Speaker 1
But it's fear, isn't it? It's fear of something that keeps you trapped in that state, right? How- how- how did you break through it?

05:49

Speaker 2
Well, you know, I have to say my mother has always been a real advocate for me, even though within that system, she was also subjugated and hold- held very little power, um, in my family structure.

06:03

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

06:03

Speaker 2
But I remember at 13 sitting with my mom, and I had-Um, I read a book and it was called... And reading's fantastic, by the way, whoever's listening to this. I know people listen to podcasts and have been listening to this podcast and listening to this. But reading was a fantastic vehicle for me to learn. You gotta remember, I'm a child of migrants who-

06:21

Speaker 1
Yep.

06:21

Speaker 2
... didn't know... They'd never even been to school. And with the amount of stressing I had, I don't even know how I became educated because honestly, you know, we... I had to learn my ABCs through teachers, not at home. But I started reading. I was really good at reading, really good. And I remember at 13, I read a book called Thirteen Going On Forty.

06:40

Speaker 1
Oh.

06:40

Speaker 2
And I don't even... I mean, I'd have got to look it up because I don't know if it exists, exists now or it must be online, but-

06:46

Speaker 1
Yeah.

06:46

Speaker 2
... I read about this girl who was 13 and had this really tumultuous family relationship and felt like she was 40. And I was like, "Oh, that sounds like me." So I went to my mum-

06:56

Speaker 1
It's like the book was written for you. (laughs)

06:58

Speaker 2
Absolutely. And, and, and very unusual because if you think about the time, um, people were not talking about their families of origin. And certainly mental health and domestic violence, family violence was not really spoken about. This is a real anomaly. And, um, I remember going to mum and saying, "I think there's something wrong with Dad."

07:17

Speaker 1
Well, we kept all of-

07:18

Speaker 2
And that's what happened.

07:18

Speaker 1
We kept all of our stuff behind the closed doors because I remember myself when I was 16, I mean, I wasn't allowed to have people over at our house. I wasn't allowed to go to other people's houses. But when I finally went to somebody else's house, another friend and stuff, and I saw how their father, um, behaved, and I saw how the mother behaved, and I'm like, "That's completely different to my place."

07:43

Speaker 2
Yes. Yes. Yes. That is exactly right. And so that... I had that experience when I was 11 or 12 years old.

07:53

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

07:53

Speaker 2
So I started realizing there's something wrong in my family.

07:56

Speaker 1
Right.

07:57

Speaker 2
And because I'm, I'm the child of a Southern Italian, so Sicilian/Calabrian migrant-

08:02

Speaker 1
Yep.

08:02

Speaker 2
... um, they were still, you know, treating us like... I mean, we used to say to my dad, "You're not living in Sicily in 1947," because the rules were like, you know, always-

08:09

Speaker 1
Were they the first generation here, were they? They were f-

08:13

Speaker 2
No, they were first generation in Italy. So my parents were born in Italy and came here.

08:18

Speaker 1
Okay.

08:18

Speaker 2
And so they really disciplined us with really archaic rules that we thought were archaic, like growing up. You know, like you can't walk around without shoes on because it's considered naked. Um, being in pajamas was considered naked. Uh, you couldn't have friends over, and you certainly couldn't have friends who were Australian born because you will be spoiled. So I did have a, um, friend who was Australian, and this was part of my awakening 'cause I was like, "There's something wrong in my family."

08:48

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

08:48

Speaker 2
"There's something wrong with my dad." Specifically, I was like, "There's... This is..." We'd never named it, and so I started naming it. And then in my family, I became the scapegoat. And so my other siblings, in- rather than being like, "Oh, okay, maybe there is a problem here," because they were too scared to confront the truth and the reality of the situation is that we were being abused horrifically, um, I became the problem.

09:10

Speaker 1
Yep.

09:10

Speaker 2
"There's something wrong with you, you're too sensitive. It's you, it's just you. If only you would A, B, C, and D, then this wouldn't happen." And I started to get blamed incredibly enough, and I've got these stories in the book. So whenever dad would go off or something would happen, they would blame me, the person with the least power in the household. I was the youngest of four children. They would blame me. "If only you didn't put your shoes there. If only you didn't move your chair that way. If only you didn't..." And I started to... So y- you start to crumble under that because you start to feel so wrong in who you are.

09:44

Speaker 1
Yep.

09:44

Speaker 2
Until, so weirdly that you should say that about when you were 16, when I was, uh, 12, I went to a friend's house for, um, a, s-, the Cup, Melbourne Cup. They were in a Melbourne Cup thing, which we never did in my household. And I remember, um, she turned around, her dad said something to her and she goes, "Oh, shut up, dad." And I remember feeling this... I started to... I actually started to feel fear. I started to like ho... I was sweating. I was like, "Oh my god. Oh my god." And I remember in that moment thinking, "She's gonna get bashed. She's gonna get da, da, da, da, da, da, da," like in that moment. And then he goes... He just laughed it off.

10:21

Speaker 1
Yeah.

10:22

Speaker 2
And I remember thinking, "There's something wrong with me."

10:26

Speaker 1
Wow.

10:27

Speaker 2
And then I thought, and then I thought, "Hang on a minute, is this how it's meant to be?" Because in my family, you would never say that in my family. I mean, we would not be there to tell the story.

10:39

Speaker 1
Yes.

10:40

Speaker 2
Um, and that was my awakening when I realized there is something wrong with me, but it's not that there's... But I think that I'm on the right path and maybe there's something more wrong with everyone else.

10:51

Speaker 1
You got an example, you got a comparison. That was really important.

10:57

Speaker 2
Yeah. And I realized that not all 12-year-old, um, children are scared of their dads or scared-

11:02

Speaker 1
Yeah.

11:02

Speaker 2
... of their mums, or scared of this huge, huge, huge, uh, consequence-

11:08

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

11:08

Speaker 2
... to, um... And, uh, to saying something, and also that you could joke with your... Like, it could be a joke-

11:15

Speaker 1
Yes. Yes.

11:15

Speaker 2
... that wasn't taken so seriously. And then that was the beginning of my awakening around control, fear, um, you know, me being part of this family system. I went on to become obviously a youth, well, a youth worker, community development worker, and I started to actually study-

11:34

Speaker 1
Hmm.

11:34

Speaker 2
... you know, family systems, psychology, and what happens when one person in the family... There was no word for narcissist, by the way.

11:40

Speaker 1
Yep.

11:40

Speaker 2
That wasn't even made up back-

11:42

Speaker 1
Yep.

11:42

Speaker 2
I mean, it was there-

11:43

Speaker 1
That's new.

11:43

Speaker 2
... but no one thought about it.

11:44

Speaker 1
Yeah. (laughs)

11:45

Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly, it's new and every second person's one. But I think, um, I mean, my... I think my dad was actually quite sadistic and so, um, took the pleasure in seeing people who had less power than him, considerably less power, actually feel fear to the point of wetting yourself.

12:03

Speaker 1
Yeah.

12:03

Speaker 2
You know, that's, that's a level of fear that is, um-

12:06

Speaker 1
That's terror. That's, that's terror.

12:08

Speaker 2
And I don't mean to... It's terror. It's terror. And I don't mean to, uh, like...... maybe trigger the audience, so you might want to put a trigger warning. I don't know. But certainly, I have lived that.

12:17

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

12:17

Speaker 2
And what people don't know about me on my platform, 'cause people say, "G-Mads, you've got no fear of anything. G-Mads, like, you're so strong." I'm very emotionally strong. And what I, the reason I wrote the book is because what I wanted to teach people, I thought if only people could learn what I learnt or learn what I know and then they could walk forward the same way.

12:36

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

12:36

Speaker 2
Because when this happens to people, you can go one of either way. You can actually diminish yourself so that other people feel better about themselves. And that's what nasty people, narcissists, you know, people with, um, psychopathic behaviors, you know, the Machiavellian, the Dark Triad, that's what they want. They want people to diminish their light so that they can actually feel better, better about themselves. Or you can just say, "Actually, I'm not scared of anything. I'm not scared of you, and I'm not scared of consequences 'cause I'm not punishable anymore." And that's when I realized my power.

13:07

Speaker 2
I was like, "You can't punish me."

13:09

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

13:09

Speaker 2
"You actually can't punish me." 'Cause the highest-

13:11

Speaker 1
Yeah.

13:11

Speaker 2
... punishment is, in my opinion, like for me was I was scared of, well, being hit, basically, or death. But then I actually faced death because my father-

13:23

Speaker 1
You looked it in the eye.

13:23

Speaker 2
... actually

13:23

Speaker 3
Yeah.

13:23

Speaker 1
Yep.

13:24

Speaker 2
Yeah, I looked it in the eye, and I won. And I was like, "I can, man, if I can scale this, this, um, to this level, you generally..." Then I just was like, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna invest in my intellect. I'm gonna single-handedly pursue what I'm passionate about." And, you know, you learn all the lessons on the way. The knockdowns, you get back up. The knockdowns, you get back up. And but my... The genesis was definitely thinking there's definitely something wrong, wrong with me, but it's not... There's something different about me, but I actually think I, I'm, I'm okay. It's everyone else that's not okay.

14:00

Speaker 1
Yeah.

14:00

Speaker 2
So yeah, it was amazing.

14:03

Speaker 1
It's a, an amazing story, without a doubt. And it, and it, you know, to overcome that sort of trauma and, and that sort of, you know, behavior, um, you know, because you look at your father and you think, "Well, somebody taught him that. Somebody taught him to be the way that he was." And you know, they were a generation that had possibly opportunities to break the cycles. But for some reason, a lot of them just didn't. So that left it to the people like you and I, the next generation, to break the cycle, which is exactly what you were doing, right? Your brothers and sisters, your siblings didn't do it, but for some reason, you did.

14:47

Speaker 2
You know what it was? And I don't know if you can, um, relate to this, but I'm sure people who are listening can. Uh, everyone can, I feel like. That's why I called it The What Will They Think Brigade. Because growing up-

14:59

Speaker 1
What Will They Think Brigade, yep.

15:00

Speaker 2
The What Will They Think Brigade, because growing up, the way that, um, people maintain control, especially European cultures, especially Arab, Indian Europe, European cultures, the way that they main- And people, even, I've spoken to people about this, you know, that come from Christian backgrounds or fundamental backgrounds, right?

15:19

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

15:20

Speaker 2
The way they control people, especially women, young women, is, "What will such and such? What will, what will your aunty think if you go out dressed like that? What will shebangabang think if you go out dressed like that? What will shebangabang think if you're gonna be friends with that person? What will they think if you actually don't become a doctor, but you become a" whatever, da-

15:35

Speaker 1
Actually-

15:36

Speaker 2
... you know, darbologist? ... that's, that's a really good point, right? Because I remember being even as young as seven and, you know, and listening to being told that by either my mum or dad, you know, "That's not what they do. That's..." And you know, it was... I, I just wondered who "they" were. I'd hear Mum and Dad talking to their friends and things and, you know, "Did you hear what they were doing and what they said? And did you, you know, read about bla..." And I'm like, "Who the hell's they? Who, who's they?" Because it seemed to me, even as a young child, that the adults around me were all doing what they thought, whoever they was.

16:13

Speaker 2
(laughs And so I started to think, "Why are they so important? Hmm. "Why is what they think-" Yes. "... so goddamn important to my life?" I started to really resent it. Because what's, what... We were, we were controlled by that mechanism. Mm-hmm. And you know, that we'd be told in Italian. And, and it actually served a purpose because when I went back to Italy to go visit where my dad and my mom grew up, and because my nonna would tell me stories, when they used to live in tiny little villages, women were predominantly, uh, controlled by rumor. So my grandmother, my mom's mom, used to tell me stories of back in Calabria, back in Sicilia, when a woman, when someone was to be completely eviscerated, their reputation was always hinged on their sexual promiscuity or lack thereof. So this is another thing in the book that I go into- Yeah. ... which is when you come from a culture where your honor could destroy a family, and the honor meaning your virginity or lack of, okay, or your promiscuity. Mm-hmm. So, so in, back in the villages, they would say to their children, "No, don't do that, don't do that, don't go there, don't be seen there," for the vi- for the view of impropriety on you. So when I went back in 2016 as a 38-year-old mature woman who had a child and been married, divorced, in the t- in my, in my mum's town, in Calabria, one of my cousins who I was walking... I said, "Oh, I wanna go get a coffee." And in, in, in Italy, they call it the bar. So you can walk into any little bar. It's not like here in Australia. The bar is where you get coffee. Mm-hmm. Takes you two seconds to do a short black. Yes. Swig it back, and off you go. Pay a euro, and away you go. So it's not like we sit down. A cappuccino here, it's a bit different. Yes. So I was like, "I feel like a coffee." She grabbed me and said... And she was younger by about eight, 10 years. She grabbed me and said, ƒa giunā," which is, "Cousin, I cannot... Don't go in there. Don't do it. Don't do it." And I said, "I'm going in there." "I can't come in there. I can't be seen with you in there." "Why?" "Because it's a male-only bar."Right. And I, living in that town and still not married, still in my late 20s, not married, if I go in that bar and they see me, they're gonna say that I'm, you know, a tart, whatever- Mm-hmm. ... prostitute descent and I have no marriage prospects. Wow. And she ran and I realized this whole what will they think brigade- Yeah. ... comes from that era. However, they're new to this country and I saw it as a weakness because I kept thinking to myself, "Why doesn't my dad, who admittedly was a very, very strong man physically and, and, you know, like he had a very strong mind, why didn't he just tell everyone where to go?" Mm-hmm. It really annoyed me. Why do you have to impose on me the value system and morality of other people and what they think? And then years later, when I found out all the family secrets. Yep. So I found out that these people who were like so instrumental in keeping me, you know, not promiscuous and not doing this and not seeing the wrong people and blah, blah, blah, whatever. Oh my gosh, they had skeletons in the cupboard. Yes. Oh, that's it. It's in the book. I said to my family, "Listen, I am uncovering it all because the truth shu- sh- shall set you free." And I don't know why you didn't say to those people, "Excuse me, um, my daughter would have to live a thousand years to do the absolute palaver that you've kept hidden in your closets, so, you know, don't throw stones," if you know what I mean. But they didn't because the culture, and this will be a lot of people who are in different cultures will know this, family secrets keep you trapped. It's actually biblical. It's a curse. They keep you tracked. Yes. And people do the same things over and over, but they, you know, they, they, they're ceremonious and they say, "But what will other people think if you do?" And then they start to say- And, and I too say, it's also here in the Western culture as well, absolutely. Of course. This generation, those generations or the last two, I saw it very strongly in those generations as well. And those, the people that are trying to hide or, you know, just lock away those secrets become the biggest hypocrites. And you can just... You know, for some of us, yeah, you, you can sense it or you can see it or you can hear it in their behavior. Well, children pick it up too. Yes. This is the thing. So infidelity... And I know, being a behavioral psychologist, I talk to... I've had thousands and thousands of clients, worked with thousands and thousands of couples and people. And the thing is they'll often say, um... So there are a lot of couples that you may think that are outwardly look amazing, but they ha- they do not love each other. Mm-hmm. And they stay together for the children. They may be high society. You know, um, it doesn't matter which side of the affluent scale, but they're more affluent. Yep. There's a lot of money involved, okay, in splitting things up. And so they, they will say, "Yep, I, I have someone else, a lover, and the other partner has a lover, but they just stay together for the family." The children pick up on this. Of course they do. They... And here's the thing, it completely devalues all of the moral, uh, lessons that we try to tell our children about, you know, being upstanding, having integrity, being honest, and being loyal, 'cause eventually they will find out and it crumbles the whole thing. Whereas I'm just open, I just say, "Well, look, let's just call it what it is." You know what I mean? Yeah. And the whole thing crumbles down. Now, you can imagine in my family, that is probably not appreciated. Hmm. Because we do defend him. Well, but nobody, nobody likes, nobody likes to be, um, seen that way because your mum and your dad had created their own identity of who they were as a man and a woman, as a mother and a father, and you were challenging the very core of their identity. Definitely. And this is what I love about my mom, who is still alive and I adore and we do little lives together, and my dad has passed away a couple of years ago, but, but my mom who I get along with, I challenge her a lot. Like I'm the child that, uh, you know, I don't mince my words. My mom's nearly 80 and it doesn't matter. I will absolutely like talk about lessons. And so sometimes when we talk about the family dynamics, um, and she might say something that kind of, you know, irks me a little bit, I'll say to her, "But, you know, you know, Mom, you know, you used to say..." Oh, 'cause we would say to her, as a kid we'd be like, "Please leave him. Leave him. Just divorce him." We used to ask her to divorce him, right? And she used to say, "I didn't, I didn't want my, my kids to be a statistic of divorce." Mm-hmm. Like, 'cause culturally bad. See, like not good, like, for a Calabrian woman to divorce her husband. Right. N- no, right? Yeah. So, but I said, "Mom." I said, "Mom, the thing is they were statistics, just not a statistic of divorce." Yes, absolutely. Right? Let's talk about the statistics. Yeah. You know, some in the family are alcoholic, workaholic, um, ama- ama- amazingly none of the... I've got two other female siblings, we're all extremely, um, we're not promiscuous at all, but, um, there are all other things that are going on. Do you know what I mean? Like there are all- It hit- ... other things going on. Yeah. It didn't hit... It was your self-worth. It was your mom's self-worth, it was the self-worth in who you all valued yourselves as individuals. That's what got hit. Uh, yeah. And so you've got all these other statistics. I said, "So don't worry about being a statistic of divorce that you were trying to stop yourself from," which again was what will they think brigade. Yeah. 'Cause in my mom's family, one of her sisters of, of, um, I... My aunt, I love her, adore her, she got divorced and the, the, the tribe, the family exercised this swift, "You're out of the tribe. It's your fault. How could you do that? I mean, he didn't hit you, so what's the problem?" Yeah. "I mean, there might have been other problems, infidelity, whatever, but he didn't beat you up, so what's the big deal? He brought the money home." Yeah. And my mom saw that and she was conditioned, "Uh-oh, what will they think brigade will eviscerate your life. They will excommunicate you." Mm-hmm. We see this in other like, you know, different communities where they go, "We... Y- you have this standard and if you sit outside that, we excommunicate you." And for a woman with four children, I think my mom, you know, really thought... She had to weigh it up, like, "What's, what's the bigger beast here?" And she did and, um, but she's willing, at nearly 80 years old...... to still talk about... This is what I like about my mom. She... Even if it's the hard truth, she would prefer that to a soft lie. And with me, there's no other choice 'cause I'm like, "Well..." It is true. True. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, I do love that about her because I would see it as challenging. I have a daughter and, and she's exactly like me. Yeah. She would tell me a hard truth, not a soft lie, which I prefer because a lie can never end, you can never end up in freedom with a lie. It was- A hard truth- What you were, what you were talking about before with, you know, the woman being made example of and being, you know, exited from the tribe, um, that's a classic example of what's been happening to all of us over the last five or six years. Anybody that would speak up against they, (laughs)

25:19

Speaker 1
right? The-

25:20

Speaker 2
Oh, yeah.

25:21

Speaker 1
... they brigade, right, yeah, um, was made an example of and then that deters anybody else from speaking up as well. So I think that your life from the beginning right up to now has been an example of how do I empower myself and now, you, you also are trying to empower others. Would that be right?

25:45

Speaker 2
Oh, absolutely because... And that's the whole reason I wrote the book 'cause I was... 'Cause what I want people to realize is... Well, in saying that, just the first thing you just said gave me goosebumps because I just realized in that moment, that is why for the last six years I really haven't had a problem with being that person because it's the first time it happens to you that's the hardest.

26:06

Speaker 1
Yep.

26:06

Speaker 2
So the first time, it's the first time you're cheated on or the first time you break up with someone, oh, it's gut-wrenching. But then every other time, you're like, you know, it gets easier and easier. And my whole life, and I'm nearly 48, this has been the road that I've traveled. I've been the one that's, you know, going, "Well, hang on a minute. Look over here, look over there." So when we were all excommunicated in that time, I was like, "Whatever." I, it, it didn't really phase me at all.

26:30

Speaker 1
Yeah.

26:30

Speaker 2
In fact, I realized what was going on, um, in that space and time. And that is-

26:36

Speaker 1
Oh. Sorry, that's a good point.

26:37

Speaker 2
What?

26:37

Speaker 1
Right? 'Cause it's when you've had an experience personally-

26:41

Speaker 2
Yep.

26:41

Speaker 1
... you can see it when it's starting to happen to others. You can-

26:45

Speaker 2
Yes.

26:45

Speaker 1
... see it a mile away.

26:47

Speaker 2
And, and actually on the platform what I talked about was the fact that... I talked about how the, the, the overarching government and everything that was going on in the world was actually a narcissistic relationship with our government, 'cause that was what... Because we were being punished. "Can't do this. We're gonna punish you. You can't do that. We're gonna punish you." And when you feel like you're going to be punished, it instills fear into you-

27:10

Speaker 1
Well, I said, I, I-

27:11

Speaker 2
... and fear is a mechanism for control.

27:12

Speaker 1
Sorry, love. Sorry. I did some public speaking in 2022 and part of what I was saying in that talk was e- exactly what you're just alluding to. Look at what your government's doing to you and if that was a relationship that you had with somebody, you would divorce them or you'd get them up for domestic violence or you would do something.

27:34

Speaker 2
Bravo. Exactly. So what I postulated back then, because one of the biggest questions I kept getting asked in Surround Sound and Neon Lights was, "Madonna, why do you think people are falling for this?"

27:47

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

27:47

Speaker 2
And I said, "Because people for so long have actually been in relationships where they're tra- trauma bonded with someone who, a human being, like an individual or a family system that relates to them like this, and all our institutions relate to us like this because there's an obligation." Just think Centrelink. You're obligated to do A, B, and C and if you, and if you don't do it, this is the punishment. But Centrelink or any other government organization can take as long as they want, they don't have to adhere to their own policies, da da da da da, and where's the punishment? There is none. So we've got this relationship with our institutions of which the family is the original institution.

28:24

Speaker 1
Yes.

28:24

Speaker 2
Um, and so I, what I postulated, and this was just a theory in my own mind because I was seeing this over and over and going, "How can this be?" And what I noticed was communities that were really used to being controlled by a religious institution, the family institution, or a secular institution, the government, for example, Indians, um, and I've spoken to a lot in that time, they just fell into place.

28:50

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

28:50

Speaker 2
Right? And I'm not... and there's a lot of Indian people that haven't done it up, but what I'm saying is this is a generalization.

28:56

Speaker 1
Sure.

28:56

Speaker 2
I found that women or people, the people that had traveled through this and won in their particular individual situation, their minds were open. They were like, "Oh, I've seen this before."

29:07

Speaker 1
Mm.

29:07

Speaker 2
And they started to call it out.

29:09

Speaker 1
Yes.

29:09

Speaker 2
But those who were still embedded in relationships where fear is used as a mechanism for c- control-

29:15

Speaker 1
Yeah.

29:15

Speaker 2
... what will other people think? A lot of people, you know, were given a experimental, um, you know, uh, medical, you know, a jab. They were given-

29:25

Speaker 1
Yeah.

29:25

Speaker 2
... a, a, an mRNA experimental drug.

29:27

Speaker 1
Mm.

29:28

Speaker 2
And a lot of people told me, not one person actually told me they took it 'cause they were fearful 'cause they were gonna die of a pathogen.

29:35

Speaker 1
Right. (laughs)

29:35

Speaker 2
What I... Right? A lot... Well, because I wouldn't know-

29:39

Speaker 1
They don't have a job or I'm gonna lose my family or, you know, the tribe says that, you know, if they're doing it, I should do it.

29:45

Speaker 2
I promise you, I've got friends that didn't e- they didn't even have to work. They owned their own businesses. They could get around. I have friends that were, you know, on the single parent pen- pension or for some reason they didn't even have to do it. But, you know, you know, Mad, but the, the women down at, you know, the primary school, everyone was saying, "Have you done it? Why haven't..." The tribe, the what will they think brigade.

30:06

Speaker 1
Yes. Mm-hmm.

30:06

Speaker 2
And I was the officer. I was like, "I don't give an F." I was like, "I don't care. I don't care what you say. So what?"

30:12

Speaker 1
Yeah.

30:12

Speaker 2
"Who are you to question me?" Bang. Straightaway. You don't get to ask me about a... I, do you ever ask me if I had the hep B shot or if I've had a pap smear-

30:21

Speaker 1
Or an abortion?

30:22

Speaker 2
Or even if you've been shot.

30:23

Speaker 1
Yes. (laughs)

30:24

Speaker 2
Right. So you don't get to ask me and you have no authority here.

30:29

Speaker 1
Mm-mm.

30:29

Speaker 2
Back off. Whereas most people go, "And, you know, she said to me..." I'm like, "Who the hell is she?"You know, it's this, "What will they think? What will others think if I don't..." People got their children inoculated because what will other people think?

30:43

Speaker 4
Mm.

30:43

Speaker 2
And I find that so abhorrent to my sensibilities. It's almost like, to me, as someone who's come through it, I, I find that actually like embar... I, I just, I, I cringe from it. The minute someone goes, "You have to be," I'm, my brain goes, "Whatever the hell I want." That's how I feel  

31:03

Speaker 1
Well, with all, with all due respect to all the people out there that may have done that or other things, I actually call it childish behavior because in my own experiences over the decades, I've realized that... You know, I realized it, I think the first time when I watched Parliament on the television, and that was a couple of decades ago. And as I'm watching them, these grown men and women, these mature, intelligent men and women just fall apart and start s- you know, smacking fists on the table-

31:40

Speaker 2
Yeah.

31:40

Speaker 1
... punching the air-

31:41

Speaker 2
Yeah.

31:41

Speaker 1
... yelling at each other, and carrying on. I thought, "They're all eight-year-olds. They're all behaving like-"

31:48

Speaker 2
Yeah.

31:48

Speaker 1
"... eight-year-olds." And that's-

31:49

Speaker 2
Yeah.

31:49

Speaker 1
... when I started to realize that a lot of people, their emotional maturity gets stunted at a young age, and they don't emotionally mature into-

32:02

Speaker 2
Yep.

32:03

Speaker 1
... an adult. So what you're-

32:05

Speaker 2
Yeah.

32:05

Speaker 1
... talking about with people just doing it and, you know, just doing as they're told, that's what a child does.

32:12

Speaker 2
Yes. When they... Yes, when they don't have, um, you know, autonomous control over themselves.

32:19

Speaker 1
Yep.

32:19

Speaker 2
They're used to being told what they need to do.

32:21

Speaker 1
Yeah.

32:21

Speaker 2
And I don't want this to come across... As you were speaking, I was thinking about the question before you said, so you wanted to empower others.

32:28

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

32:29

Speaker 2
I'm not coming across like, you know, I'm so sanctimonious, I've never done what other people say. In fact, no. I spent my life doing what other people wanted me to do and then-

32:38

Speaker 1
Yeah.

32:38

Speaker 2
... realized that every single time I did that, the outcome was horrific for me and I resented-

32:44

Speaker 1
Yeah.

32:45

Speaker 2
... them.

32:45

Speaker 1
That's a good   ... effective.

32:47

Speaker 2
Right? So, I'm not coming from an, "I'm the best, chuck out the rest." It's like, I made all the mistakes and I realized... And I remember my grandmother, my mother's mum, used to say to me, "Madonna, when you want to do something, you do it for yourself because if you do it because someone else tells you, it will not end up well." She taught me this when I was little. Well, I spent a lifetime of doing what other people wanted me to do and then realizing that the outcome every single time was not to my, my benefit because I was a people pleaser. I didn't want them to feel bad if I said no, I didn't want them to feel bad if I said yes, or the contrary, or I... I did so many things to please, even in workplaces, which got me in critical incidences that nearly lost me my life. Like, literally big, big deal things. So, the reason I want to empower others is because I like shortcuts and we just don't have time anymore. Like, I'm like, "Listen, I've traveled the road.

33:36

Speaker 2
I may be able to give you a shortcut from A to B that you wouldn't have thought of."

33:40

Speaker 1
Yep.

33:40

Speaker 2
And therefore, if you change your life and if you change your view of life, or whatever it is that you're needing, especially if it's a woman, you exponentially change the lives of your, of people around you. So it compounds-

33:55

Speaker 1
It does.

33:55

Speaker 2
... and that's why I love it.

33:55

Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. You, you know, the p- there's a point that you made there too. You walked both roads. You walked both roads. A lot of people that were very opinionated out there and all the rest of it haven't walked both roads. And, and what I mean by that is, I vaccinated my children, right? I did that. And when I started to learn more and question more and challenge more and want to walk my own path, I started to see that, oh, there were, there was another choice. There was another choice. I c- and I... And you've walked the road.

34:29

Speaker 1
As you've also said, when you have done what others tell you to do, it's a crappy outcome, but when you do-

34:36

Speaker 2
Yep.

34:36

Speaker 1
... what it is that you want to do for yourself, it is a better outcome, it's a good outcome.

34:43

Speaker 2
And can I say on that point, even if the outcome's bad, because I chose it-

34:50

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

34:51

Speaker 2
... I actually can swallow that.

34:53

Speaker 1
Uh, yes.

34:53

Speaker 2
And that's the point, right? Because consequence, good or bad, I made that decision-

34:58

Speaker 1
Yep.

34:59

Speaker 2
... um, independent of the what will they think brigade.

35:02

Speaker 1
Yep.

35:02

Speaker 2
I did it because Madonna decided-

35:04

Speaker 1
Yep.

35:04

Speaker 2
... that with her level of expertise and her level of... I may have done research or I may have looked at the risks. One of these. I lost a lot of money on crypto. A lot. Friends of mine. And these weren't... You know, it wasn't one of those scams where you think... No, no, no. Really good friends-

35:18

Speaker 1
Yes.

35:18

Speaker 2
... of mine invested their money.

35:19

Speaker 1
Me too. Me too, and it all... Yeah. I researched, I investigated, all of that stuff. Yep.

35:24

Speaker 2
I did it and when I lost... When they rang me to say, "By the way, your money's down the gurgler." It was $200,000. I'll name it. It was a big amount of money. I sold my house and put the equity in there, dah, dah, dah. You know, I, I just went, "Well, that was my fault."

35:38

Speaker 1
Yep.

35:38

Speaker 2
Because I took on board all of the advice, dah, dah, dah, and I still did it anyway. And when I tell people the amount, they're like, "Oh, my God." And I'm like, "Yeah, but you know what? If someone else had of, you know, put that in my mind or sta...", I was really gung ho about it.

35:53

Speaker 1
Yep.

35:54

Speaker 2
And so, and so I've accepted that. I've... I'm okay. I'm like, I accept that I wasn't... I shouldn't have done it. Big lesson. But you know what? Not the first, not the last. And people have lost millions and millions and trillions doing things. But when you do it because someone else tells you to do it, for example, jump off the cliff, jump off the cliff, jump off the cliff, there's going to be a body of water, jump in, dive in. And you're like, "Eh, uh, not sure, not sure." And you jump off the... you dive off and you think and you hit flat and you're like, "Oh, my God, that hurt," I get resentful. If only they had... If only I hadn't have listened to that person or if only... Do you know what I mean?

36:27

Speaker 1
That's... Isn't that respond... taking responsibility versus being the victim?

36:32

Speaker 2
Absolutely. And, and so now, I go with my gut instinct-

36:36

Speaker 1
Yep.

36:36

Speaker 2
... because your gut will tell you and in... And in the book, I actually talk about, I write...... absolute concrete examples of even from when I was little, like four years old when my gut was like, "Eh, don't do that," and I did it and something diabolical happened. And I didn't know it was the universe calling to me, "This is actually how we tell you, we warn you." 'Cause all, I mean, look around us, all animals have instincts, right?

36:58

Speaker 1
Yes.

36:58

Speaker 2
But we don't teach our children, "By the way, you have an innate ability to understand what's coming forward."

37:04

Speaker 1
Yeah.

37:04

Speaker 2
We don't say that. Although my mum did, she used to say, "Listen to your two-cent peace." Like it took-

37:09

Speaker 1
Okay.

37:09

Speaker 2
... years. So when, so when it came to the last six years, I was, I feel like I've been exercising that muscle.

37:17

Speaker 1
Right, yes.

37:18

Speaker 2
Does that make sense?

37:19

Speaker 1
Yes, yes.

37:19

Speaker 2
So for me, I've been exercising the muscle. And it doesn't mean I don't get it wrong. I get it wrong, but I don't, I get it right more of the time now.

37:26

Speaker 1
Well, I, I think, you know, we tune out, we're taught by listening to others or, um, what will they think brigade. By listening to-

37:35

Speaker 2
Yeah.

37:35

Speaker 1
... them, you turn off your internal dialogue. You turn off that con- or turn down that connection to that gut feeling or that instinct. So yeah-

37:46

Speaker 2
Yeah.

37:46

Speaker 1
... in the last six years, I think a lot of people have had to turn that back on and it doesn't go from zero to 10. It doesn't just, it doesn't work like that. It's, you gotta tune into it. And sure, sometimes you'll get it right and sometimes you won't get it right, but you've gotta keep consistently tuning into it to start really listening to yourself, don't you?

38:06

Speaker 2
Yeah. And recognizing this is our mechanism.

38:09

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

38:09

Speaker 2
You know, I wanna say to all the people, this isn't to make people feel bad, 'cause I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who would do things differently if they could do them differently, you know?

38:17

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

38:17

Speaker 2
They would do- have a do-over. But the thing for me-

38:20

Speaker 1
That's called, that's called hindsight. Hindsight's an incredible thing.

38:23

Speaker 2
(laughs) Exactly, exactly. And I always say this to my daughter, some decisions that you make can, you can take, you can do take-backsies. You can go, "Well, I can take back..." Even money, you can earn money again. But there are things that are lifelong that can actually really harm you. And I think in this instance, it's that, it's that kind of example of people actually being quite unwell and it's be- it's a lifelong journey now, they've gotta figure out what they're doing.

38:49

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

38:49

Speaker 2
But I just want to say that, for me, the biggest thing is about caring what other people say.

38:56

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

38:56

Speaker 2
People really hold high value to what other people are gonna say about them, and that is something that has been a massive lesson, the what will they think brigade. I care about people in my inner circle. I give people the resp- Like, if someone's a mentor to me and I feel, and I really respect them, then absolutely I will take that onboard with, with the... And it can be the really hard truth. And I've got people around me who tell me the hard truth.

39:21

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

39:22

Speaker 2
But I think wh- and this is one of the things I would say on my platform a lot, choose your leaders. You, you know, if you s- for example, for me, my highest value is honesty and integrity and safety. Now, I'm not gonna choose a leader who is inebriated all the time.

39:37

Speaker 1
Yep.

39:38

Speaker 2
I'm not gonna choose a leader who is a drug-taker the majority of the time. People do choose leaders. I, I don't, you know, I don't like leaders who talk about having amazing family structures, but have had, um, lots and lots of infidelity or lots and lots of different partners.

39:51

Speaker 1
Yeah.

39:51

Speaker 2
I find that really difficult to listen to. I'm not saying people are perfect. What I'm saying is choose your leaders wisely. And what we do in our life is make everyone a leader of our life.

40:01

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

40:02

Speaker 2
Especially people who haven't even proven that they can manage their own lives.

40:05

Speaker 1
Yes.

40:05

Speaker 2
Often I'll speak to, to, to clients and they'll say, "And my shabangabang says this and my girlfriend says this," so they tell me a lot about their girlfriend or the person. And I'm like, "So they, uh, have run their life into the ground and they're telling you what's what."

40:17

Speaker 1
Yes.

40:17

Speaker 2
How does that compute? And that's the point I want people to understand is that growing up, I was told to mind what other people said and manage my life even down to I wasn't allowed to laugh lest I be thought that I was stupid, um, what I was wearing, what I was saying, how I was looking, you know, anything to do with myself.

40:38

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

40:39

Speaker 2
And, um, and you find out years later as you get older, oh, these very people have the, you know, absolutely salacious lives that, you know, they don't actually adhere to these rules either.

40:50

Speaker 1
Yes.

40:50

Speaker 2
And so, um, I think that's, for me, empowering other people actually to be free.

40:57

Speaker 1
Yeah. Free of all of that. All of that.

41:00

Speaker 2
Free of this cage. I call it the birdcage of your mind.

41:04

Speaker 1
Yeah.

41:04

Speaker 2
And what I saw was, during 2020-and, and even now, like even this is what people do individually or en masse, I would say to people, "If you have a bird in a cage," right? This is one of the chapters, the birdcage of your mind. "If you have a bird in a cage and you have it in captivity its whole life and then you go to it, 'Hey, man, here's the cage is open, go and be free,'" do you know that that bird will go out, look at... And, and it's been looking for years out this cage going, "Look at all of this, you know, sky and the trees." It will go to the nearest tree, it'll look around and it'll go straight back into the cage.

41:36

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

41:37

Speaker 2
I did the opposite.

41:38

Speaker 1
(laughs)

41:38

Speaker 2
I was looking out going, "Oh my God, the big wide world's out there." The minute I got out there, I was like, "See ya."

41:43

Speaker 1
Yep.

41:43

Speaker 2
"I don't want to get back into my cage." And what people do, anything in captivity, will go back to the person that's keeping them captive and say, "Well, at least I'm safe there."

41:52

Speaker 1
Yeah.

41:52

Speaker 2
"They might hurt me, they might whatever me, but they feed me a little bit." Whereas I was like, "I don't want the crumbs, I want the banquet. Bye."

41:59

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

41:59

Speaker 2
And, um, made my own banquet. So it's, I want people to feel that energy because then that actually, that is a revolution they can't stop. Happiness and freedom, that's actually what they don't want us to be, right?

42:12

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

42:12

Speaker 2
For whatever reason, you know?

42:13

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

42:13

Speaker 2
And that sounds, you know, every... But it's true. Even abusers don't want-

42:17

Speaker 1
Well, even-

42:17

Speaker 2
... to know your friends.

42:18

Speaker 1
... in words, if we sat and we asked everybody that's listening to just take a moment to ask themselves are they really, truly happy, and are they really feeling that sense of freedom in their lives, I wonder what their answers would be.

42:34

Speaker 2
I think some people don't realize they're not free. I think some people-

42:37

Speaker 1
I don't think they even ask themse- I don't think they ask themselves-

42:40

Speaker 2
Oh, yeah.

42:42

Speaker 1
... the question.

42:42

Speaker 2
True, true.

42:43

Speaker 1
Yeah.

42:43

Speaker 2
Absolutely. And I think, and as, I'll ask, so if anyone's listening, this, what I would do is say-Is what I say in my own home being controlled? So does someone say to you, "Don't say that," or, "Don't do that," or, "Don't speak like that when you're in public"? I mean, I've had partners do that. "Don't laugh."

43:02

Speaker 1
Yeah.

43:02

Speaker 2
Is, is what you're thinking being controlled?

43:05

Speaker 1
Mm.

43:06

Speaker 2
A political, maybe, perspective or, you know, this is the way you've gotta think, this is the right way to do it, the right... it's right and wrong and you're doing it the wrong way and you need to see it the right way.

43:15

Speaker 1
And for kids-

43:16

Speaker 2
But I had everything-

43:16

Speaker 1
Are, are your parents doing that to you? Or for parents, are you doing that to your children in some way? Or for partners, are you doing that to each other? Take note.

43:26

Speaker 2
Yeah, because what I've found is, when people don't want people to be free... And we do wanna give our children moral compasses, right? That we do wanna say, "Hey, listen, the best way to go is this or that."

43:38

Speaker 1
Yeah.

43:38

Speaker 2
But what I'm talking about is beyond that. When... What people who like to control, and just think about what's going on with the government, questions are their biggest enemy.

43:49

Speaker 1
Yeah.

43:49

Speaker 2
"But why is it like that?" But why is it like that? But why is it like that? You know kids do that, "But why?" And then they're, in the end, "Because I said so."

43:57

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

43:57

Speaker 2
So if we teach kids that authority can say, "Because I said so," and you have to bow down to it-

44:02

Speaker 1
Yeah.

44:02

Speaker 2
...well, that, that's what people do in the end.

44:04

Speaker 1
That's a big thing, yeah.

44:04

Speaker 2
And I remember, um, when I was... I had two stepsons for a very long time in my life, and, um, before that, um, relationship ended. And when the kids were running around, I have three children, my daughter and the two boys, and they were running around, they would come to me and they'd say, "Oh, he hit me," and, "She did this," and, "She did that." And I just told them the truth. I said, "I am actually not interested in justice. I'm interested in peace.

44:30

Speaker 2
So, you all need to work it out because I am gonna punish all of you."

44:35

Speaker 1
(laughs) Okay. Yep, yep.

44:38

Speaker 2
And they understood quickly, rather than go, "Oh, you did..." or, "Don't..." or, "It's because I said stop, because I said so," I just told them the truth, "I'm not interested in justice right here. I'm actually tired. I'm an adult, for be- for reasons that are beyond your comprehensive- comprehension. But I'm not interested in justice." They knew that. "I'm interested in peace."

44:56

Speaker 1
Mm.

44:57

Speaker 2
"So either be peaceful or you're all copping it."

44:59

Speaker 1
Mm.

44:59

Speaker 2
And they all just went, "We gotta work this out."

45:02

Speaker 1
Yeah.

45:02

Speaker 2
And that's the difference in parenting, is just telling them the truth, you know what I mean? Rather than going, "It's because I said so."

45:06

Speaker 1
Yep.

45:06

Speaker 2
Because, you know what? Kids grow up and realize a lot of their parents don't... You know, have you ever grown up and realized, oh, my parent was an idiot.

45:14

Speaker 1
Mm.

45:15

Speaker 2
And, and it's because they said so.

45:17

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

45:17

Speaker 2
You know what I mean? (laughs) I mean, we're human. Parents are fallible. We're just men and women who didn't get a, you know, we didn't get a manual. And so-

45:26

Speaker 1
Mm.

45:27

Speaker 2
... you know, we're the supreme authority of a household, but sometimes the supreme authority of a household could be a colossal moron.

45:33

Speaker 1
Miss.

45:34

Speaker 2
You know?

45:34

Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely.

45:35

Speaker 2
Right.

45:35

Speaker 1
Absolutely. And that's where I saw with my own mum and dad, I mean, they did the best that they could with, you know, the education and the experience that they had and whatever, um, but I made a choice that I was not gonna raise my kids that way. I was gonna figure out new and more creative ways to raise them. And I still remember to this day, at one particular point, I was really having financial issues raising three kids, and one of my boys walked in as I was trying to figure the money out for the week and came and asked me if he could have 20 bucks for such and such at school or whatever, and I blew up. I blew up. And I actually sounded like my father. You know, "What do you think I am, made of money," kind of thing. And he slunk back out of the room. And I caught myself in that moment, and I picked myself up and I, I followed him back to his bedroom and I apologized. And I said to him, "I am so sorry, mate.

46:31

Speaker 1
That's my stuff, my stuff, and I should not have fired it at you." But I then turned it around and I said to him, "And I have to applaud you." I said, "You're the bravest boy I've ever come across." I said, "Because you knew I was gonna react in some sort of way like that, but you still did it."

46:49

Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

46:49

Speaker 1
"And I think bravery personified, so go you." And I said, "You've taught me a lesson at the same time."

46:56

Speaker 2
And I love that because it is a commitment to being a learner and a teacher.

47:00

Speaker 1
Yeah.

47:00

Speaker 2
And we, and we need to be committed-

47:03

Speaker 1
Yeah.

47:03

Speaker 2
... to be a learner and a teacher, and a learner and a teacher. No one can know everything. And so my daughter, I say to her, "You were, you were put here to teach me." You know, "I wanna be like you when you grow up."

47:13

Speaker 1
Yes.

47:13

Speaker 2
Because she really is the best man-

47:15

Speaker 1
Our children are our teachers, without a doubt, without a doubt.

47:18

Speaker 2
Absolutely.

47:19

Speaker 1
Yeah.

47:19

Speaker 2
And I think i- it really is a commitment, 'cause it doesn't mean that I don't blow up or I don't have my... Of course I do.

47:25

Speaker 1
Mm.

47:25

Speaker 2
But it's that commitment to, hang on a minute, what's going on in this... in, right now?

47:31

Speaker 1
Yeah.

47:31

Speaker 2
Um, and, and how do I actually manage that situation so that, you know, my daughter isn't brought up, um, you know, feeling that colossal fear, angst, anxiety. I mean, my, my, um, adrenals, my cortisol levels would've been through the roof as a baby. And, and, you know, down the track, um, I was, you know, diagnosed with an autoimmune disease, and-

47:51

Speaker 1
Right.

47:51

Speaker 2
... but I would have been primed for that because my adrenals were... I was scared-

47:55

Speaker 1
Yeah.

47:55

Speaker 2
... for a very long time in my life. And that's obviously-

47:57

Speaker 1
You can see the correlation, can't you, between your experiences and your health?

48:03

Speaker 2
100%. And so... And also, in saying that, earlier you said, um, about, you know, our parents, um, could have done differently, and I was talking about going back and seeing, you know, where they came from-

48:15

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

48:15

Speaker 2
... um, but I actually know of what happened to my dad as a child.

48:19

Speaker 1
Yeah.

48:20

Speaker 2
So, I actually kn- I know the way that he was brought up and the cultural narrative that he was given-

48:26

Speaker 1
Yeah.

48:26

Speaker 2
... and the traumas that had happened to him. And I think that, had it he... and I said this to my mum too, had they been born now, they may have been very different, um, p- people.

48:37

Speaker 1
Yeah.

48:37

Speaker 2
My dad probably should never have gotten married or had children, and he probably didn't want to, although I know he really loved my mum.

48:44

Speaker 1
Mm.

48:44

Speaker 2
But he was expected to be married and chose the best person that he, you know... She- my mum's amazing, and she- she is.

48:50

Speaker 1
Yeah.

48:50

Speaker 2
And he, um, even his brother was like, "You get her or I'm gonna get her." And that's a famous story, and I'm like, yeah, because again, they're seeing you as chattel.They know that they can... right? So you get her before I get her.

49:02

Speaker 1
Yeah.

49:02

Speaker 2
Um, and, uh, bu-but in saying that, um, I don't... I think my dad and even my mum, they didn't have choice. It was just fait accompli, you're going to be married and this is the way it goes. So I don't think it was-

49:14

Speaker 1
Well, they weren't doing what you said ear- earlier. They weren't asking why. They weren't asking questions. They were just doing as they were told.

49:21

Speaker 2
Yeah. And admittedly, my mum, you know, was leaving a terrible situation, her family system. So it was in that, you know-

49:27

Speaker 1
Yeah.

49:28

Speaker 2
... added my auntie and then she decided later, she's younger than my mum, to get divorced. So she was that next generation and it was just, you know, not good. But I think that had my mum, you know, been born now or in the last, you know, 20 years, she probably wouldn't have been married and I think she would have been an incredible businesswoman for... and she was, incredible, incredibly intelligent, um, as all the, the matriarchs in my family have all been incredibly intelligent.

49:54

Speaker 2
And what I saw systematically, and this isn't a man, man thing-

49:57

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

49:57

Speaker 2
... if anyone's grown up in an Italian space. I'm just saying-

50:00

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

50:00

Speaker 2
... I saw them all diminish themselves for the people in their lives that required that of them and I felt like that, I didn't want that to be my legacy for myself and or for my daughter.

50:09

Speaker 1
Well, we've, we've heard, haven't we, centuries and centuries of, of male dominance, male energy. Um, that's just, you know, that's what the one represents, you know. Um, and we, in the two, year 2000 moved into the two, which is the feminine. So there's certainly-

50:24

Speaker 2
Yeah.

50:24

Speaker 1
... a shift of some sort going on there. Um, but it was a very male dominant world and there's nothing wrong with that. I just think we're changing and evolving. That means that everything has to change and evolve. And that's our relationships, that's our thinking, that's the way this world works. You look outside your window right now and everybody's questioning every single system that's out there, aren't they?

50:49

Speaker 2
They are. And th- they are, which is fantastic. And I think that when it comes to the male dominance, men are great. I mean, I, I... when I see, I'm like, bless you for doing what you do because I couldn't do it. Men are amazing and I do love that about the difference in the male masculine and feminine energies. I think it's fabulous. But when you come from a culture where the men have an entitlement to who you are, what you say, when you say it, how you say it, where... what you dress like, um, who you speak to, who you converse with, whether you can do A, B or C, even over your, um, natural like, um, your health, whether you have access to healthcare or not have a- access to healthcare. And on top of that, you know, whether you can actually be, you know, hurt quite badly physically and their entitlement to that space.

51:45

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

51:45

Speaker 2
That is a lesson, let me tell you, when you grow up in that because you either fight back against it or you become an oppressor in that situation, so you become another matriarch that teaches-

51:56

Speaker 1
Yes.

51:56

Speaker 2
... the other, um, young women how to, um, sit still, be still, look the right way and behave and perform in order to survive this.

52:05

Speaker 1
Yeah.

52:05

Speaker 2
And I think for me, that book is about saying, I've come through all of that, but this is how I've achieved freedom.

52:13

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

52:13

Speaker 2
This is the way... these are some lessons that I had and I hope that that speaks to people's, um, souls so that they can, uh, you know, really just question. You know, we know that your questioning seems to be the biggest threat to, to everything and people are questioning right now, which is the best thing that they can do.

52:31

Speaker 1
Yes.

52:31

Speaker 2
I love that.

52:32

Speaker 1
It is. And I think, um, you know, the world wants to thank you, Madonna, at this point for, for breaking the, the, the cycles, for breaking the, um, the, the, the whole ancestral line of, of behavior-

52:49

Speaker 2
Yeah.

52:49

Speaker 1
... and conditioning and programming or whatever you want to call it, um, because as soon as you do that, it, it just, it shifts energetically, doesn't it? It shifts this planet-

53:02

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.

53:02

Speaker 1
... and it, it, you know, it flags it for somebody else to do it and then somebody else to do it. Um, it- it's just a beautiful thing. Thank you so much for doing it and being brave enough to do it and then being brave enough for, for getting out there, um, and starting... I mean, that's why you went into psychology, didn't you? What were you trying to figure out? You were trying to figure out how we're all thinking this way and how changes can be made.

53:28

Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. I, I just, you know, I just knew... I always... um, I, I was always good at the humanitarian subjects. I'm terrible at math.

53:37

Speaker 1
Yeah.

53:37

Speaker 2
I'm almost considered dyslexic, like numbers don't work for me, but I'm very good at human behavior. I've always been that way.

53:43

Speaker 1
Thank God for calculators, Madonna.

53:45

Speaker 2
I know (laughs) . Absolutely. And I... and, and so I've always... I'm very lucky because I've been in spaces, uh, in my career where I've been able to, uh, access i- the most exemplary people, uh, in, in my, in my, you know, area to be able to talk through what was going on-

54:05

Speaker 1
Right.

54:05

Speaker 2
... but also to make me realize and help me to realize, oh yeah, this wasn't actually normal.

54:11

Speaker 1
Yeah.

54:11

Speaker 2
And so it's been a lifetime-

54:12

Speaker 1
Yeah.

54:12

Speaker 2
... but I do love what I do. I actually love seeing people, you know, free themselves-

54:18

Speaker 1
Yep.

54:18

Speaker 2
... and feel better and stand straighter and realize they have a voice and that every voice actually does matter. And also, this is what you do. I mean, you, you get people... it's, it's inspiring. You get people to talk about their, um, lives and their experience so that other people who are listening, it may unlock something inside of them. And we, I don't believe were put here to be... uh, we've all got potential that's unlocked inside of us and sometimes it just takes one thing or one thing someone says that can unlock that potential and you're often amazing.

54:53

Speaker 1
Absolutely. Absolutely.

54:53

Speaker 2
You know-

54:54

Speaker 1
It's not enough to realize because yes, I've got a story and I wrote a book and all that sort of stuff, but you know, I realized and actually it's another thing my kids taught me, um, when I would plant some seeds or give them some insight as they were growing up, um, you know, I'd have o- o- other, other situations would happen where they'd come back with the same advice that I'd told them, but my sister had told them, their auntie or a friend.... mom had told them, you know. And they, you know, I realized it's like, oh my gosh, you know, people need to hear something in a different way. It's not always from you. It needs to be from, you know, a particular voice or a particular story or something said in a certain way. So I, yeah, I was smart enough to go, "I can share my story, but jeepers creepers, I think it's better to share everybody else's." Right?

55:44

Speaker 1
Because somebody hears-

55:45

Speaker 2
Right.

55:45

Speaker 1
... something in your story, and then the next guest I have, they hear something in that story. And it helps people, it inspires them for change. 'Cause that's what I said in the intro, this, it's, it's all about change and getting uncomfortable, so get uncomfortable, people. (laughs)

56:00

Speaker 2
Definitely, because that's where change happens.

56:02

Speaker 1
Yes.

56:03

Speaker 2
You know, I think we think that, you know, um, that in order to change, things just need to stay the same. Absolutely not. It is really uncomfortable. When I have to change something-

56:13

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

56:13

Speaker 2
... like think about it, if you're gonna lose weight, you've gotta go to the gym, or change something in your life, the way you eat, it's uncomfortable. It's, you know, doing a new muscle, especially when it comes to psychological health and emotional health. And unfortunately-

56:25

Speaker 1
But the more you do it, the less uncomfortable it is, right? 'Cause you start getting really used to it.

56:30

Speaker 2
And you start seeing, this is the thing around the punishment cycle that happened six years ago. One of the reasons people really lamented that is because the change that was happening was perceived as very negative, and it was negative because people were actually excommunicated from family members.

56:49

Speaker 1
Yep.

56:49

Speaker 2
And fr- isolated, right? And but it also brought out people's, um, ideologies.

56:56

Speaker 1
Yep.

56:56

Speaker 2
So, uh, a lot of stories around I had, you know, I love my cousin, we were so close, I love my... whoever it was, father, mother, sister, brother, best friend, all of a sudden at loggerheads because of our ideologies.

57:06

Speaker 1
Actually, it's like you said earlier in the piece, it brought everybody's skeletons out of the cupboard.

57:12

Speaker 2
It did.

57:12

Speaker 1
People would talk about things that they don't usually talk about, and they were finding the differences instead of the similarities.

57:20

Speaker 2
Yes. And absolutely. And so for people, they were lamenting those relationships, whereas for me, I was excited and happy about the fact that... don't get me wrong, I was like, "This is awful that, you know, I'm..." The people stopped talking to me, completely cut me out of their lives, I did the same to other people, but it actually opened up the way to find my tribe. 'Cause a lot of people-

57:41

Speaker 1
You had a different way of handling change.

57:45

Speaker 2
Definitely, 'cause I just embraced it. I thought, "Well, it is what it is." Some people I really lamented, but then I thought, "You know what? At the end of the day, what I saw happen was that punishment but reward." 'Cause it was like, oh, actually I'm finding people who really respect, um... well, not really about my point of view, but being respectful about like... I mean, I've got people in my space who don't necessarily agree with what I'm talking about, we have different ideologies, but it was came to a really res- from a respectful way, rather than this, you know, "You're this, you're that, you need to go." I mean, things were really hairy at that time. People were talking about, you know, "You should not have access to healthcare, you should not have this, you should not...

58:24

Speaker 2
you should be punished even further for who you are."

58:26

Speaker 1
Yeah. Hang on, hang on.

58:27

Speaker 2
But all you were doing...

58:28

Speaker 1
Hang on. We've got 30 seconds to go, love, and you're on a roll.

58:32

Speaker 2
(laughs) Oh. Yep, yep.

58:35

Speaker 1
So, I want people to know where they can, 'cause you offer sessions, you, you also have your own platform and things. So where can people find you?

58:44

Speaker 2
They can find me on my, uh, Facebook page, Madonna Santa. It's just Madonna Santa. People message me through Messenger. Um, you can email me, madonnasanta@protonmail.com.

58:56

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

58:57

Speaker 2
Um, and as soon as you message me, I mean, I'll give you my number. We can have a chat if you want to go ahead and chat to me one-on-one.

59:04

Speaker 1
Yep.

59:04

Speaker 2
Or you could just wanna see what I do online.

59:06

Speaker 1
Yep, that's great. And they can get your book that way as well?

59:10

Speaker 2
Yes. Uh, and i- it's on Amazon as well.

59:12

Speaker 1
Okay, okay.

59:12

Speaker 2

 

It's on Amazon, so you can search (...)

59:14

Speaker 1
So What Will They Think Brigade. Absolutely. My gosh, love, I wanna thank you for your professional insight. I wanna thank you for your personal insight today, and for sharing your story. Thank you, because it's not easy to share that sort of stuff with a lot, a lot of people. But you know you're helping so many people by doing that, aren't you?

59:37

Speaker 2
Yeah. Thank you. I've actually never been interviewed before, um, in the last six years, so this is the first time I've been interviewed.

59:45

Speaker 1
Okay, okay.

59:45

Speaker 2
And, um, it's been beautiful, and really it's been lovely. So thank you so much. I've loved this process.

59:52

Speaker 1
You're welcome. You're welcome, love. All right, thank you so much, and thank you all our listeners as well.