Beyond the Pew: Dissolving Judgment and Reclaiming Compassion

00:00

Speaker 1
Coming home. Coming home inside. I remember who I am. I don't have to hide.

00:26

Speaker 2
Welcome to SOS For The Soul: Coming Home. I'm your host, Jennifer Elizabeth Masters, transformational teacher, trauma recovery guide, and author of Unbecoming. This is where emotional healing meets embodied awakening, and each week we explore what it really takes to dissolve trauma, reclaim your inner authority, and remember who you truly are beneath survival patterns so you can live with clarity, confidence, and deep self-trust. If you're ready for real transformation, you're in the right place. Today, we're exploring a topic that touches every human life, sadly: judgment. (laughs) We judge others, others judge us, and often the harshest judgment of all is the voice inside of our own head. Judgment shows up in families, communities, religion, politics, and of course social media. But where is it coming from? And why are humans so quick to judge? And what would it look like if we replaced judgment with curiosity and compassion?

01:50

Speaker 2
So, that's where I'd like you to rest your, your heart on for the next few moments. So today, we are joined by the delightful and beautiful Reverend Katie Donaldson. Katie first felt called to ministry when she was just 18 years old, shortly after high school. By the time she was 19, she'd already received her first license as a minister, and even then, she felt a clear calling. As she described it, her desire was to help people know that they're loved, that they matter, and they feel truly... That they are truly seen, and that is a beautiful thing. I've experienced that with her myself. Over the years, that calling has taken many forms. Katie has worked in youth ministry, camp ministry, ministry abroad, and eventually discovered a deep love for preaching and teaching. Her academic journey reflects her dedication.

02:57

Speaker 2
She earned her associate's degree at the national sciences from Santa Rosa Junior College, her bachelor's degree in sociology from Point Loma University, and her master of divinity with an emphasis on cross-cultural ministry, interesting, we'll get into that, from Nazarene Theological Seminary. When she graduated with her master's degree, Katie was six months pregnant with her first child. And during her first United Methodist pastoral appointment, she discovered she was expecting her second child. Today, Katie may not be currently serving as a pastor within a church, but people in her community still honor her with the title Reverend, and that is what we consider her. So welcome, Katie. Welcome to SOS For The Soul. I'm so glad you're here.

03:58

Speaker 3
Thank you. It's a privilege to be here with you, Jennifer. I really appreciate the ask.

04:03

Speaker 2
Well, um, I have so much to talk to you about because, um, judgment is something that I've encountered, um, with other people, with myself, um, growing up in an environment where judgment, uh, from my mother was rampant. Um, I grew up being judgmental myself, and so it is something that, in my spiritual journey, I know I've struggled with it. You know, I, I might see somebody on the sidewalk wearing clothes that I don't think are c- respectful and I'm hearing my mother's voice in, in my head that translate as judgment. So, um, why do you think people judge others?

04:50

Speaker 3
I love what you... I have to first mention, I love what you've got there that there seems to be this generational pass-on-ness. Yes-

04:58

Speaker 2
Yes.

04:58

Speaker 3
... you get to make up words at some point in your life.

05:00

Speaker 2
Yeah. (laughs) You do.

05:03

Speaker 3
Um, and, and I think that's... Kind of gets at the heart of it, right, is we're almost taught how to judge from the very beginning, um, whether you want to or not. Um, and so when it gets at this idea of where do you think judgment comes from, I think it comes from, honestly, like, the opposite of goodness and everything that is right, 'cause goodness and rightness is coming together. That's why I talk with my hands, so they come together. Versus as soon as judgment enters it, right, people's, like, shackles go up or, um, they... You have a division occur. That's not wholeness. That not, that's not goodness. Um, but we kind of naturally fall into that as human beings.

05:50

Speaker 2
So do you think it's a... Is it a, a self, um... Is it self-criticism that comes out as, as judgment? Is, is-

05:59

Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.

05:59

Speaker 2
Do you think that's what it is? Or, or is it, uh, (laughs) a kind of an, an authority that, "I'm better than you."And, and maybe a little-

06:08

Speaker 3
I think it's more of the second. Um, I don't think it's intentional, by no means, right? Oftentimes, it's not, 'cause you can also judge in a positive way almost, right? Like, so you judge the person for, "Oh, I can't believe they're wearing that outfit," right? Like you said, like, you still, you find your mother's voice in the back of your head. It's real. Um, "I can't believe they chose to wear that." There also with that can be that sense of envy, right? Of, "I wish I had the body that could wear that. I wish I had the confidence and the audacity to do something that crazy, um, to break outside of those norms that our world has put on us." Um, does that make sense?

06:54

Speaker 2
Y- yes. So, it's, it's comparison in some ways then. Yes.

06:57

Speaker 3
I think it's comparison and that natural instinct within us, um, many of us. I haven't found a person who doesn't do it, so. But there might be someone out there who's good at not doing it, um, of trying to be one above. You wanna be better. You wanna be perfect. You wanna be the one that's picked for the game, um, the one picked for the job, whatever it is, right? It looks different every stage of life, um, and I think that's where then, um, depending on the voices you are... My minimal amount of childhood psychology classes and things I've taken and parental books and the like, right? Um, I think that then that's where it then depends on what you are raised with, and that's where that voice in your head gets formed, right? Your kid comes home and says, "Ugh. I felt like I got made fun of today." Well, there are a lot of ways that the, um, adult who's present can influence that negative experience for good or bad.

08:10

Speaker 2
Right.

08:10

Speaker 3
Or they can allow it to be neutral, right? And it's those voices that then you hear when you're a grown adult as you're looking in the mirror or you're looking at other people. That's where I say, I think it's, a lot of it is just added onto you. It's thrown onto you. I think that's where when we t- once we become, uh, aware of it, we then, I think, have the job as decent human beings, um, to make the decision of, "I don't wanna live that way towards myself or towards others.

08:45

Speaker 3
I want to pursue that avenue that is good and right and bringing together wholeness in this world."

08:59

Speaker 2
In, in my experience, I think judgment is one of the last vestiges, like, when trying to be more like Jesus, trying to be more loving, right? Judgment, I think, is the, the last thing that we are able to eliminate. We, you know, the low self, we can work on the low self-esteem and, and self-honoring and not abandoning ourselves. But that judgment piece, I think, is, it's very slow to unwind and, and I wanna ask you specifically about what you encountered at a particular church. Um, y- you experienced judgment and I witnessed some of it secondhand. Um, I wa- wanted just to ask you, what do, what was your interpretation of what was going on? And, and if you could share a little bit of your story, because I know your heart is in the, the place of wanting to share love and allow everyone to be seen. What a beautiful thing for your congregants to feel, to feel loved and fully seen, and yet you were judged. How, how so?

10:17

Speaker 3
Um, yeah. So, you and I met at my last appointment, so current city where I'm at in Ojai, right? And my experience was, I think, sometimes one of the things as an individual, and then it gets into an institution, as an individual you run into is, when you realize you're judging, or you're being closed off, which often is s- a defense against judgment, right, is you're like, "I'm just gonna close often." That often happens. Um, you don't like anything new. You don't like anything that stirs the pot 'cause it's risky, which it is. It is risky 'cause you're potentially asking for something new which is unknown, and that's terrifying. That, that's a whole natural fear, flight, like, response.

11:11

Speaker 2
Right.

11:11

Speaker 3
It's literally ingrained in us.

11:14

Speaker 2
Hmm.

11:14

Speaker 3
And I feel like that's what I... I'm still processing it. It's been less than a year since I exited that appointment, but I think that's what I ran into. And so, verbally, when I first arrived at the church, almost three years ago now, um, I was told, well, "Oh, thank God you're coming. We need a pastor who's willing to get out in the community." I was like, "I found my people 'cause that's what I'm called to do." That's why, like, the cross-cultural ministry emphasis, the sociology, like, I love people in society. And, um, unfortunately with that, I tend to dislike the things that divide us. And oftentimes, buildings do that or titles and different things like that. And so, I came in like, "Oh, they're open to this change, this newness," before they even knew who I truly was, like, they knew. And so, I went out on a limb,... of being authentically myself, which is what I feel called to be as a leader, to be authentic, to be vulnerable, and I have no regrets about that actually.

12:26

Speaker 3
Um, I've done leadership where I try to fit a mold. That hurt a lot worse than this right now 'cause I have no shame and I don't feel any guilt about anything I did. Um, versus when I'm not authentic, I feel guilt about it. I s- I start judging myself. I try to be something I'm not. Um, but it also, at the same time, it made it harder because once it became clear that the church did not actually want the change, they did not actually want my emphasis to be outside, that they wanted better Sunday morning worship, or better sermons, or whatever it is, that either I would be stretched way too thin and I wouldn't be good at anything, um, let alone my health which went down the drain the last couple years.

13:17

Speaker 3
Um, and, yeah, and so by the end of it, just felt really judged in terms of, yes, on paper it sounds-

13:29

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.

13:30

Speaker 3
... beautiful to have a pastor who wants to go find the people. Uh, one of my favorite verses or stories of Christ is going out, leaving the 99 to find the one, 'cause the 99, in theory, those are the ones that already have met Christ, who already understand-

13:46

Speaker 2
Right.

13:46

Speaker 3
... that they are beloved, right? So, the shepard, Christ, who we're trying to emulate, right? If you are trying to be like Christ, guess what you're gonna do? You're gonna, potentially if it's your calling, which I feel like it is mine, I wanna go find the one. I wanna go meet, um, the Jennifers, and the Lynns, and the Carols, like, these people I don't know yet. I don't even know their spiritual journey because that's not the point. The point is I want them to know that they are loved and they are beloved already, period. Um, and the judgment came when thing, that just wasn't enough. It, it wasn't helping the people in the congregation feel that love. And something I found out early on and a wise, wise soul, also known as my therapist, um, said, "You can't force people to trust you. You also can't force yourself to earn it." You're, like, that's also not how it works; it comes from shared life experiences.

14:56

Speaker 3
And if people aren't willing to do the shared life experiences with you, if they don't have that interest, you can't force it. And so, Jennifer, even though you and I have known each other less time than I was at that church with some of those congregants, you and I have way more trust than I did with most of that congregation 'cause they just, they didn't show up to things and they didn't want to. They didn't actually want that change, um, which became really clear.

15:23

Speaker 2
Yeah.

15:23

Speaker 3
And, um, and that's where the judgment comes in from that, right? From me not being enough.

15:29

Speaker 2
I, I'm an emp- I'm an empath. I'm an empath, Katie. This is making me wanna cry 'cause I, I, I feel what that, what that did to your heart, you know, that you-

15:37

Speaker 3
Well, you saw me right after too, so...

15:39

Speaker 2
(laughs) You were out there with your heart on, you know, f- f- for, for all to see. So, looking back, and, and I know hindsight's 20/20, if you had a chance to do it over again, and, uh, we're going to get much deeper on this, but, uh, I just wanna finish this little ass- you know, assets of this story.

16:05

Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.

16:06

Speaker 2
Would you do it differently if you were to do it again?

16:14

Speaker 3
There might be a, like, I would, I would still do it. I would still, um... I'm this weird, um, spot in the United Methodist Church with, um, getting an appointment 'cause I'm not an ordained elder yet, or deacon. I'm not ordained yet. So, in theory, I technically am allowed to say, "No, thank you." Um, I would still say, "Yes, please." I have no hesitation about coming to Ojai. Um, I have no hesitation of pastoring at that church. Um, the relationships I made and things like that, priceless, um, within the church and outside of the church. Um, there are some conversations that is the hindsight of like, oh, that's where it started to go wrong, and I didn't know the history yet of the past for why things went wrong, like glitter in the church. I near lost my job over saying I wanna do confetti in church with paper.

17:16

Speaker 3
But when I said confetti, they went to glitter and it, glitter and confetti are different things, but anyways, there's, um, hard feelings around glitter in the church that I didn't know. Um, and so I didn't know that I needed to explain, "Oh, no, it's this instead." That, that type of hindsight, which seems so minimal, but again-

17:38

Speaker 2
Huh.

17:38

Speaker 3
... people and institutions, they have a longer history, especially if you're new. Um, that's something you learn in seminary in school is some people say the first 100 days you do absolutely nothing, you just get to know the people. Um, there still are things, like is glitter okay or not, confetti okay or not? You're gon- you're not gonna know. Um, but things like that I'd redo, those little conversations, but who knows if I would've picked up on it or not.

18:09

Speaker 2
It's such a small detail. Su- such a small detail. I mean, and, and yet, it, it obviously, it, it got under somebody's-

18:17

Speaker 3
I had to make it a person.

18:18

Speaker 2
What's that?

18:19

Speaker 3
I had a, I had a person step off my trustee's board over it.

18:23

Speaker 2
Really?

18:25

Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.

18:26

Speaker 2
Wow. Okay.

18:29

Speaker 3
And they don't remember that though, so that's interesting. But it is on paper, so we're fine. (laughs)

18:33

Speaker 2
So-

18:33

Speaker 3
So things like that.

18:35

Speaker 2
... h- h- how did the experience affect you personally?

18:41

Speaker 3
As I said, being in a, a job, it's a job. In the end of the day, like yes, I'm a pastor. I'm still a pastor right now. Being, um, being called to do what I'm called to do, that doesn't stop wha- if I'm actually serving a church directly. And some people will disagree with me on that. And we can have that debate later. Um, but leaving it has been very freeing.

19:10

Speaker 2
Interesting.

19:11

Speaker 3
I'm still, yeah, I know. I'm still figuring that out. Um, and part of it is, like, the larger s- my larger story as a pastor because I've moved denominations before and that time was not by my own accord. This time it was. I said, "I need to be done." Um, and I'm glad, um, 'cause now, and again, in hindsight, there are so many things I was unaware of while in it.

19:42

Speaker 2
Right.

19:42

Speaker 3
So I was unaware that my family was feeling, I don't, I have a six-year-old and three-year-old, um, and when we stopped, started to, um, I... Sorry. The church had me go to part-time, um, a bit before I quit and being part-time, I stood up that that means I have a Sunday off every month and they tried to fight me on that. And my boss came to my aid and I'm very grateful. And so we started attending another local church on that Sunday and it became apparent real fast to me that my daughter didn't like going to my church.

20:21

Speaker 2
Wow.

20:22

Speaker 3
She'd ask, "Well, where are we going?" "We're going to church, baby. Like, I have to preach. It's why I'm..." Like, I wore a collar and stuff. And she's like, "Can I stay home?"

20:32

Speaker 2
Oh.

20:32

Speaker 3
And which, for the record, I would. Like, if she sincerely did not want to go to church, I would do that. But I didn't see it. I didn't see it until I was, like, done. I turned in my notice but I had to finish off my month. And then I started, I saw it and I was like, "How long have you been asking me not to go?" Like, I just, I literally do not know because I know it didn't start right then. It had to have started before that. And she absolutely loves going to the new church we go to. Um, she feels loved and adored and like she matters and she has a place and she has friends who are not necessarily her age. They're just grown adults who give her cookies at snack time and don't judge her for running in circles.

21:25

Speaker 3
Like, but she got s- she got so much judgment-

21:29

Speaker 2
Okay, let's talk about that.

21:31

Speaker 3
... at my last appointment.

21:32

Speaker 2
Let's talk about that because-

21:33

Speaker 3
There's your word. (laughs)

21:35

Speaker 2
Oh, yes. (laughs)

21:35

Speaker 3
I didn't even realize till I said it.

21:38

Speaker 2
Being, being in, uh, being a mother and a grandmother, uh, eh, if my children were hurt, that would hurt me too.

21:48

Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.

21:48

Speaker 2
Probably I, I would be more concerned about my children being hurt than myself. I, you know, I can deal with a lot. Holy cow. How did that, how did that impact you?

22:01

Speaker 3
It made it easier for me to leave.

22:04

Speaker 2
Oh, okay.

22:04

Speaker 3
I think, um, if I did not have children involved potentially, I would be like, "Okay, yeah. No, find your new pastor and then let me know when I can leave." Like, I need, I, gives me extra time to pack, whatever. But I was the one that said, "I'm done. I need to be done. I can't do another advent. I cannot give up another holiday season, um, to this. I, I don't have the energy or the capacity for it." Could I have forced it? 100%. Did I want to? I was done.

22:37

Speaker 3
Um, and so the judgment on my ki-

22:43

Speaker 2
Can you, can you specifically cite w- what type of judgment your children had, had received?

22:49

Speaker 3
Uh, they weren't a- one, they weren't allowed to be kids. Um-

22:54

Speaker 2
What do you mean by that?

22:55

Speaker 3
And so... Great question, because it was an anonymou- this is one of my things later if we get to it I'll talk about, it was an anonymous complaint multiple times. Um, so I couldn't actually even ask, "What was it about the children that was distracting you from worship?" Which, by the way, first, I don't believe children are a distraction. Um, I just, I don't think that's a thing. Two, um, I also don't think they are children and we are the worshipers. I think y'all are the worshipers. So you literally, when my children were said they're not, we don't want them in the service during the sermon anymore 'cause they're too distracting, you literally just kicked out an age group of people from worship.

23:42

Speaker 2
Oh.

23:42

Speaker 3
And they didn't see it that way. They saw it, "No, we want them to make, we wanna make sure they have good, like, age appropriate teaching." I was like, "You, nobody else here has the training to give them age appropriate training." And they didn't. Like, um, which is why they didn't wanna go to church anymore. Um... Ah, yeah.

24:06

Speaker 2
S- so their, their expectations obviously that w- were, were set were very high. Now, let's talk about the demogra- demographic.

24:16

Speaker 3
Okay. Yes.

24:18

Speaker 2
That, that might have something-

24:19

Speaker 3
(laughs)

24:19

Speaker 2
... to do with the judgment, right? Because I know how-

24:23

Speaker 3
It's always a culture shock.

24:24

Speaker 2
I know how my mother is about children.

24:28

Speaker 3
Yeah. Theirs-

24:28

Speaker 2
What was the truth?

24:31

Speaker 3
And it affects them on a couple levels, right? There's one other judgment I didn't get at, but I think I will now. Um, the ages above the age of 60, um, uh, probably above the age of 70, but I want to be generous and say they ... With a handful of people under the age of 70, 60. Um, they're older, um, and yes, they have hearing aids. Um, yes, we actually did have the equipment to tie in their hearing aids to the speakers if they wanted and nobody used it. That's fine. Um ... Um, so that's the age. And the other judgment that happened that I want to mention is my daughter got it a lot more than my son. Um, and I remember speaking with my lay leader about it, and he's like, "No." And I was like ... "Look at this." And I told him a couple specific instances, and he's like, "I, honestly, I don't want to believe you, Pastor.

25:31

Speaker 3
I don't want to believe that people are being sexist against a child." And he's like, "But I'll pay attention, and can I talk to you about it later?" I was like, "Please do." And sure enough, that next Sunday, he's like, "Pastor, can I talk to you in your office?" And I was like, "Please." (laughs) So I knew what was coming 'cause I saw it happen. Um, and all it was was ... And it's little things, right? And it was that my son, who was two at the time, was invited to go get donuts with the matriarch, old- the, one of the oldest ladies of the congregation. Took his hand and she said, "Let's go get some donuts, Shay," while he's right standing next to Sam. And then she looks at Sam and says, "Pick all that up.

26:14

Speaker 3
You need to clean up better."

26:18

Speaker 2
What?

26:19

Speaker 3
And you know what Sam did? She picked up the toys. And then she went and she got the donut. I was too far away to confront the person, 'cause I would have.

26:28

Speaker 2
Wow.

26:29

Speaker 3
Um, but I saw it out of the periphery of my eye and I saw my lay leader standing close by and I was like, "He's gonna see it." Because I also know this is the person who's done it multiple times to my daughter.

26:39

Speaker 2
Hmm.

26:40

Speaker 3
Um, and no, I never had a conversation with her about it. Um, not directly. Um, I think if I would've stayed, I would have. Um, I- I know I would have, but I'm-

26:54

Speaker 2
Interesting, 'cause I-

26:54

Speaker 3
... I think it's a cop-out.

26:55

Speaker 2
I was gonna ask you-

26:56

Speaker 3
It's-

26:57

Speaker 2
... the, the sex of the person involved, but I, I, you already gave it up. It's a female.

27:01

Speaker 3
Oh, yeah. It's ... Yeah, it's a old, old lady.

27:05

Speaker 2
Oh.

27:05

Speaker 3
Like, lovely lady.

27:07

Speaker 2
Oh.

27:07

Speaker 3
Like, don't get me wrong.

27:09

Speaker 2
Yeah.

27:09

Speaker 3
But, like, it's one of those things. And I think it's a cop-out to say, "It's just that generation." No. Everybody can grow. Everybody can learn.

27:16

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.

27:17

Speaker 3
And you also can make the personal decision that you don't want to.

27:21

Speaker 2
W- well, here's the thing. (laughs) What, what did Jesus say about children?

27:28

Speaker 3
I had a congregant ... So in the middle of worship, um, there were ... So we got there. Shay was only ... My youngest. He was only ... He wasn't a year yet. Um, it was, um ... And so we had him in worship, and my nanny or my husband would be in the back with him, and he would make noise. He's an infant who was still taking milk and would gurgle and laugh and all the things, right? And it was a new concept. This church has no regular children attenders. Not one. And so it was a new concept to have children. And again, at first, they're like, "Oh, this is great change. Look at us." And then they realize, "Oh, but then that means we have to change how we do things." And which includes we need to be okay with a little bit of noise. Natural noise. I'm not saying loud toys, but gurgling sounds or little chuckles. There's one congregant, and I love this man.

28:30

Speaker 3
He, every single time, no matter what part of the service, we're in middle of a prayer, a song, the sermon, meditation, he'd say, um, he would quote Jesus, and he'd do it better than me right now. But, um, "Bring the little children unto me." And he'd verbally say it out loud, loud enough for the whole room to hear. And every time, it made me feel less shame for bringing in the distraction, right? And that's that judgment that I took on.

29:03

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.

29:05

Speaker 3
Um, and every single time-

29:07

Speaker 2
Do you, do you think-

29:07

Speaker 3
... that man melted.

29:07

Speaker 2
Do you think he sensed it? Do you think he sensed what you were feeling?

29:13

Speaker 3
I don't know. Um, like, I got to know him pretty well, and I don't think he's very, um ... He's empathetic-

29:21

Speaker 2
Is it-

29:21

Speaker 3
... but not empathic.

29:22

Speaker 2
Intuitive?

29:23

Speaker 3
Intuitive, yeah. Like not that type of emotional connection type of a thing. Um, but he loved children in, specifically in church. He did-

29:31

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.

29:31

Speaker 3
... in the past, he was the one, only person who volunteered with my youth group with me, other than my nanny.

29:37

Speaker 2
Oh.

29:37

Speaker 3
And he would volunteer with, um, vacation Bible school. Like he was very ... He used to volunteer with camp ministries a decade ago, like before I got here. Like, he's very passionate about the younger generations.

29:50

Speaker 2
Yeah.

29:50

Speaker 3
And so, honestly, I think it was less to do with me and more to do with he knew what people were thinking.

29:56

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.

29:56

Speaker 3
And he knew that that's not okay.

29:58

Speaker 2
Wow. Interesting. Well, um, (laughs) I, I have heard that there are no more divisive than Christians. Or, uh, a particular religious sects within their own, within their own.

30:19

Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.

30:19

Speaker 2
Very divisive. What do you feel about that, Kate?

30:25

Speaker 3
Hmm. I'm thinking about...... the different, like, history of religion as a very broad statement, right? If we're going to make that assumption that Christianity is the most devise- divisive, um, I think modern day, I feel comfortable making that- that assumption. Um, historically, I'm less inclined to say that just because there is so much more, there's always been that this is our group. And you can see that in all the different religions, I think. I feel pretty confident saying that.

31:23

Speaker 3
Even if it's a matter of we're just, this is our region-

31:27

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.

31:27

Speaker 3
... of whatever. Um, and so maybe the dividing lines were different. I think today there's enough studies out there that I am comfortable calling out, which is some days are the most divisive days of the week-

31:48

Speaker 2
Yes.

31:48

Speaker 3
... the most divided days. And it's because people like homogeny. You like things that are like you.

31:56

Speaker 2
Like you.

31:56

Speaker 3
That's why you will have the churches that are- speak one language and they'll meet in the same building as another group that speaks another, but they're not the same church. They're two different congregations that may not know a single name of the other person. They're not a church, they're two different congregations. Um, and so that type of a thing. But again, that's natural in humans to separate because you want the familiar.

32:22

Speaker 2
Familiar.

32:22

Speaker 3
And that, yeah, and that just goes to, and it's more than just language, it's how people appear, it's the linguistics of it, it's all the different factors. What type of music are you going to want to hear? What scriptures do you want to study? What... So on and so forth. So I don't, I think current day, probably, I feel comfortable saying it's Christianity, but that's also because I think Christianity being a bit younger in terms of itself, right? So we, Christianity does have the First Testament as, um, some people call it the Old Testament, that's part of our creed. We have that and that is Judaism at its core. So we go all the way back. But Christianity alone, on its own two feet, like, that's new. We're less than 3,000 years old. That's new. Of course we're still trying to figure it out.

33:24

Speaker 2
W- well, one of the things (laughs) that I wanted to ask you is abou- about the mental picture that people had of what their minister should look like. Do you think the judgment had anything to do with how you looked? How you appeared? The fact that you were female?

33:42

Speaker 3
Oh, yeah. Um, but it's not new, right? Especially being in ministry for so long. Being, you know, one of... I get, I used it in this interview already, is "y'all," that was one of the first complaints I ever got. I wasn't asked, "Why do you say it?" Or anything like that. It was actually a judgment right off the bat. Like, "I understand that you came from Kansas City." "No, I'm from California, actually." "Oh, okay. Well, people are having a hard time with you saying 'y'all.'" And I was like, "Okay, that's how I say everybody, but everybody just, it doesn't flow as well for me. Y'all just flows naturally for me, so I prefer that word." And I knew, this just is a thing, if I was a man, they wouldn't come up with me with that. Why? Why would they?

34:35

Speaker 2
Seems like splitting hairs.

34:38

Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.

34:41

Speaker 2
So what-

34:42

Speaker 3
Or (laughs) one of my favorite things was, I wore, just becau- this is a female thing because most men don't wear eyeshadow, and I wore green eyeshadow on Pride Sunday my first year. It was distracting.

34:57

Speaker 2
People told you that?

34:59

Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.

35:00

Speaker 2
(laughs)

35:00

Speaker 3
It- it made it in to my report to my boss.

35:02

Speaker 2
Really?

35:03

Speaker 3
Mm-hmm. He was like, "Are you serious?" I was like, "Please go read their review of me. I promise I'm actually doing better than what this sounds like." (laughs) Um, but yeah. Like, it was little nit-picky things like that. And if you talk to male ministers, they're like, "Nobody ever gives me any crud about any of that type of stuff." It's like, "I know." Like, all female ministers know this. We know going in that we're gonna be judged 'cause in general, it's just we l- we do, sorry to tell you if you are unaware, we do still live in a patriarchy where men are held higher than females. It shows in our wages, all the different things. It's one of the reasons why I went to get my Master's of Divinity versus my Master's of Theology. Divinity is held to a higher standard than theology majors. I do not think I'm above a theology major, for the record, but it makes it easier for if somebody sees me against a man who's a theology major, they put me up here for some reason. I'll take it.

36:01

Speaker 3
It gets me one thing ahead. Sure. Why wouldn't I? (laughs) Like, that's just the mentality you go into when you go into leadership as a female, is, "How can I stand out more?" And you have to work your butt twice as hard. And you still get complaints about your eyeshadow.

36:17

Speaker 2
Wow. Well, I was going to ask you how- how expectations shape judgment, but there- there you go. It's like, well, the eyeshadow. Um, do you think culture ha- has become more judgmental with social media and, you know, everybody seems to be able to comment on- on each other, on each other's life? And- and even- e- well, even the way you speak-

36:45

Speaker 3
Yeah. I was hoping you were going to ask something like this. Um, no, I don't think so. I think it has allowed us to expand who we judge. I don't think it has changed how we judge. I think judgment has been around since the beginning of time. You see it very early in almost any religious document of some moral story about judgment, um, of how, like, humanity has judged each other, for the record. And I think, yeah, now it's easier in the sense... Well, not easier. People are meaner when they judge on social media because you can do it without a face.

37:24

Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.

37:25

Speaker 3
It's one of the reasons I did the cross-cultural ministry emphasis. And I know you don't know this, but one of the reasons I did that is because I was having a really hard time with the church and with God, and I was like, "I don't want to study any of that. I'd rather study people and culture," cross-cultural ministry. So, that ended up being my, like, fun thing, and that's more of my core of who I am, and then the other stuff fits into that core. Um, and so I think that judgment's always happened, whether it was in a wheat field back in the day or the grocery store that you had to walk 12 miles to, whatever, like you still judged.

38:05

Speaker 3
"Did you hear what Jennifer bought from the grocery store the other day?"

38:08

Speaker 1
(laughs) And how much was it?

38:10

Speaker 3
"I don't trust her or she."

38:11

Speaker 1
(laughs)

38:11

Speaker 3
Like that type of stuff. But today it's easier 'cause you can get onto social media and you can anonymously say, "Jennifer went and bought all the ice cream from aisle 13. Can you believe it? She probably did that just to spite me." I highly doubt it, but I'm glad you got that off your chest. Like, (laughs) and you can be, I want to say, more petty about it. And that's where the anonymous, I tie in the anonymous thing with that, is, um, you can't work with anonymous things.

38:46

Speaker 1
Right.

38:46

Speaker 3
So, it's called triangulation-

38:47

Speaker 1
Right.

38:47

Speaker 3
... where people instead of talking directly, that lovely communication, um, they go ahead and they go to somebody else and they say, "Hey, have you heard what Jennifer did? I just can't believe it." The proper response is, "Hey, have you talked to Jennifer directly about it? I think you probably should 'cause she probably has a reason." And then you find out, "Oh. Hey, Jennifer, I heard that you bought all the ice cream off of aisle 13." "Who told you that?" "You know, somebody." Well, you can't work with somebody. But if somebody came to you and was like, "Hey, Jennifer, I saw you bought all the ice cream from aisle 13. What in the world is going on?" "I'm having an ice cream social. Can you believe it? And I needed that much ice cream." There it is. Nothing bad about buying all the ice cream off of the aisle.

39:34

Speaker 1
Just ask.

39:36

Speaker 3
Just that, be direct about it without any judgment present, just that curiosity. And I don't think that's new. That's why I don't think the judgment is happening differently. Um, I think it's just broader because of globalization because we have the means to know more, and I don't think that's wrong. I think that's just our new reality as humanity. We now know everything, um, or we can if we so desire.

40:04

Speaker 1
We th- or we think we do.

40:07

Speaker 3
And then... We think we do. (laughs) And then we get to make the decision of what we do with it.

40:11

Speaker 1
I, I wanted to, um, to look at this.

40:15

Speaker 3
Oh. What a concept.

40:17

Speaker 1
(laughs) Um, judge not lest ye be judged.

40:24

Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.

40:25

Speaker 1
So, what do you think Jesus meant by that?

40:28

Speaker 3
So, um, knowing that this lovely interview was going to be on judgment, I went ahead and did what I do. I did not study Greek in seminary, I'll just let you know right now. I did take it for funsies during COVID though, because you had to do something, and apparently that's what I like to do is study a language. But in preparation for this, I went ahead and I looked up in scripture what word is used in the New Testament, which would be Christ's words, for judgment. It's krino. Sorry if I'm saying it terribly. Um, but it's krino, which, yes, can be translated to judge oftentimes in English, but I love when you actually parse it out more, which is it means to separate or to make decision about something.

41:16

Speaker 1
Oh.

41:17

Speaker 3
You get to make the decision. You get to decide if you're going to separate that thing.

41:23

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

41:24

Speaker 3
Um, and so the judge not lest ye be judged, well, do you want to be separated from God? Do you want to be separated from society? Do you want to be separated from your family because you chose X, Y, or Z? Does that make sense?

41:42

Speaker 1
Yes, it does. It does.

41:46

Speaker 3
Versus we... I think oftentimes when we hear judge, we make a connection with, like, justice, um, which just pure coincidence there are two J words. That's just English.

41:55

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

41:55

Speaker 3
That's not other languages.

41:57

Speaker 1
Yeah.

41:57

Speaker 3
But I think we often tie them together 'cause that's how we work often, and so we think like, "Oh, it's justice to judge somebody, to say they're good or wrong." That's not what it... That's actually not what-

42:09

Speaker 1
Mm-mm.

42:09

Speaker 3
... that word means.

42:10

Speaker 1
Yeah.

42:11

Speaker 3
Um, it doesn't have anything to do with justice. I think it gets a lot more at the heart of what Christ constantly was doing, which was what's the greatest commandment?

42:23

Speaker 1
Love your neighbor.

42:24

Speaker 3
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your-"

42:26

Speaker 1
Oh.

42:26

Speaker 3
Yeah, with your whole being. And similarly so, the second is like it, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Right? If you're judging people-

42:38

Speaker 1
You're doing the opposite.

42:40

Speaker 3
... where are you loving... Yeah, where are you loving God in that? Where are you loving yourself in that? And that, I, I know, silly ice cream narrative that I'm gonna stick with now. I'm sorry, Jennifer, but like-

42:51

Speaker 1
No. (laughs) I'm gonna have to go buy ice cream. (laughs)

42:54

Speaker 3
Can that person... Can you imagine how much stress that person put on themselves trying to figure out why you bought the whole aisle of ice cream-You know how many phone calls they probably made to try and figure out that mystery versus just calling you? Like, how silly. Um, the same thing for going back to why my kids are adjoined in service. I still don't actually know how they were a distraction. Nobody ever came up to me directly to tell me how.

43:22

Speaker 2
I'll tell you how.

43:23

Speaker 3
I, yeah, I never knew.

43:26

Speaker 2
They-

43:26

Speaker 3
The first week, there was one thing with Sam. She went and danced on, like, near the alter, which humble opinion, not a big deal, but it was a big deal apparently. So, you know what I did? 'Cause I was told directly what it was, "Hey, Sam, I need to set a boundary and you can't come up these steps unless I say you're invited, okay? There's fire up..." There were candles. "There's fire up here, and there's things that are really breakable." And you know who never came up there after that? Sam. Unless I said it was okay. Like, and she didn't know. That's not her, and she didn't need to know that as a kid, but that's where that came from. This anonymous complaint about what's going on, that they're a distraction, I don't know how they're a distraction.

44:09

Speaker 2
I sat through-

44:10

Speaker 3
I can't work with that.

44:10

Speaker 2
I sat through a service w- where they were in the service, and I found them nothing like that at all. They were not a distraction. They were a delightful addition, in fact, handing out little hearts.

44:23

Speaker 3
Yeah, I was like the service you were at, they were distracting, so.

44:26

Speaker 2
(laughs) No, they were sweet as could be. I found them to be very well behaved.

44:32

Speaker 3
Thanks.

44:32

Speaker 2
So, th- the next, the next verse I want to talk about just a little bit, uh, is John 8:7, "Let h- him who is without sin cast the first stone." And what does this story tell us about humility and our tendency to condemn?

44:50

Speaker 3
Yeah. I think that gets back at what we talked about earlier is one of the reasons we condemn so often is because we're trying to put ourselves at a higher bracket than somebody else. We seem to have all this self-righteousness of, but I'm doing it right.

45:08

Speaker 2
Mm.

45:09

Speaker 3
You're doing it, like literally, you're pointing down at somebody. That's what condemning is. Is you can't believe that. Um, but big surprise, um, who's actually, like, looking at the big picture of the story of the earth, of the universe, of humanity?

45:32

Speaker 2
Us.

45:32

Speaker 3
Not us. It's God.

45:34

Speaker 2
God.

45:35

Speaker 3
And that's where the judgment is going to come in. And oftentimes, people think, "Oh, G- judge, um, God's going to judge me." The amount of times that I've had people say, "Thanks for the invite, Pastor, but I don't want to bring lightning into your congregation." Like, and yes, there's a degree of humor in that statement. There also clearly was a degree of trauma from past experiences in church in those statements-

46:01

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.

46:01

Speaker 3
... of being afraid that they were going to be condemned by the divine for whatever they did here on Earth. Nothing we do here on Earth is new. Badness has been badness. Goodness has been goodness. And we should be striving for the goodness. Like, you're not going to get judged by God with lightning, um-

46:21

Speaker 2
Well, I have something I- I want to sh- ask you about and, and it's a bit of a diversion, but not.

46:26

Speaker 3
Okay.

46:27

Speaker 2
I was in the tunnel of light in 2014.

46:30

Speaker 3
Okay.

46:31

Speaker 2
And what I experienced was no judgment. There, there was no judgment. When I said, "I guess they're taking me to show me the other side," the guides that were on either side of me didn't say, "No, you're wrong. Boy, are you stupid." They're, they're, I could tell they didn't agree, but there was no judgment.

46:53

Speaker 3
Yeah.

46:54

Speaker 2
So, what is, what's that indicating about what the afterlife is going to be for all of us? What's, what's, is God really going to judge us? Or is it us in heaven that judge ourselves?

47:08

Speaker 3
I, actually, somebody talked to me about this today a little bit, and it was actually from a book they read, which unfortunately I don't know the title of, so I can't recommend it, but they highly recommended it, and it's actually written by an atheist. And it got at that idea of what the afterlife is, but that kind of the purgatory-ish, like that phase bef- like, after death but before you're in heaven. Um, so call it a tunnel, whatever word you want.

47:35

Speaker 2
Garden. Garden.

47:35

Speaker 3
There's a bunch of different... Yeah. A bunch, there's a bunch of different traditions of what words are used. And one of the ideas was, is how can we expect people to be loving in heaven if they haven't been loving here? I've never actually considered that before. For that's where the judgment comes from is, well, are you going to be able to love your neighbor if I let you through? Um, I'd never considered that before. Like, literally, just this morning had that pop up. But in terms of what you're saying, what I have thought of and contemplated, two parts. One, I don't think we have a clear answer of what the afterlife looks like. I think a lot of it is so mysterious, which I think is beautiful, and I think every religion has that aspect, right? Nirvana, whatever. Like, it's mysterious. It's, but it's beautiful, it's right, it's good. We all can agree on that. Um, and with that, I also, I don't remember which verse it is off the top of my head, apologies, but it's from Revelation.

48:48

Speaker 3
And I remember when I took, I took the course of Revelation 'cause whenever, when else am I ever going to want to study that book of the Bible? Now it's my favorite book of the Bible, by the way.

48:58

Speaker 2
Oh.

48:58

Speaker 3
So, I'm really glad I took the course. But it's, I think the last chapter, or the last two, pretty sure it's the last one, of Revelation, it...... mentions the gates of heaven. And within it, it specifically says the gates of heaven will never be closed to anyone. So, if there is something like a purgatory or a time of where there's need for self-reflection or whatever, well, guess what? The gates are never closed. So, you get there and you're like, "Oh, this is beautiful. But, you know, this is really weird, I'm probably dreaming and I just, I want to go back. I don't know," right? Like, well, guess what? You will get a round two if you so desire to make the decision of would you like the peace and the goodness? Which is a mystery, sure, but would you like that? I don't think a lot of people are going to say no to it.

50:03

Speaker 2
Well, all I know is that it's a way more loving place than this planet is. Way more loving.

50:09

Speaker 3
100%.

50:13

Speaker 2
So, I- I have some questions for our listeners, Katie.

50:16

Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.

50:17

Speaker 2
And, um, i- i- i- these are things that you've spoken about. You know, what I'd like you to look at is, have you ever been judged unfairly for who you are? I know I have been.

50:31

Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.

50:32

Speaker 2
Have you ever caught yourself judging someone before knowing their story? How often does that happen? You see somebody, maybe a- a homeless person, and you have no idea. I- I've had a homeless person stay in my home and he was the most generous person I have ever met. I- I- I was just absolutely blown away. And so clean. Cleaner than me.

50:58

Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.

50:59

Speaker 2
So, so there are some things that we have in our mind about, about certain types of p- people. Um, ww- what would happen if we replaced judgment with curiosity? We talked about that too, Katie. And most of us have experienced this from both sides, being judged and judging others. So, my final question for you is, if there's one thing that you'd like people to remember about judgment and compassion, or maybe a lesson to be taken away from this, what would it be?

51:36

Speaker 3
Oh. Um ... Go read the book Compassion by Henri Nouwen. I'm pretty sure it's Nouwen. Um, it's one of my favorites. My takeaway would be, you don't have to be perfect. Um, but, I know people don't always like when there's a but or a comma, but you are supposed to be growing. Physically, mentally, emotionally growing into a compassionate soul for yourself, for others, for the world. So it's a- it's a little less of a reprieve to get wherever is next. 'Cause I think, at least for me in my faith, um, here and now is filled with the divine. It's filled with thin space moments where, oh, there's that beautiful thing I wish I knew before. Why didn't I see it sooner? So go hunt for those compassionate moments, those beautiful God-given gifts. They're right here right now. You just have to be willing to see them in yourself and in others.

53:04

Speaker 2
That's beautiful, Katie. It has been a joy and a pleasure having you. Thank you so much for- for sharing, uh, from your heart and- and so authentically. I love you, Katie.

53:18

Speaker 3
Love you too, Jennifer. Thank you.

53:20

Speaker 2
If something resonated in your heart today, that your nervous system is recognizing truth, I work with people ready to release old programs, old emotional patterns, and step fully into their next chapter to be able to live in joy and peace. You can b- book or learn more at my website, jenniferelizabethmasters.com. And if you're a host, producer, or event organizer looking for conversations that bridge trauma, healing, consciousness, and embodied leadership, I'd like you to connect. And next time, remember, healing isn't becoming someone new. It's unbecoming everything you were not meant to carry. Katie, if there is a way that people can reach out to you if they would like to, d- do you have resources or a contact where people can learn more about you?

54:18

Speaker 3
Yeah, for sure. Um, I will actually just make sure to pass them along to you, Jennifer, so-

54:22

Speaker 2
Okay.

54:23

Speaker 3
... let me know if anybody needs to get ahold of me and I'll say you can.

54:26

Speaker 2
I will. They will be at the- at the bottom of this show, I will have those posted for you. Thank you so much for being here, Katie.

54:35

Speaker 3
Thank you.

54:35

Speaker 2
Good night, everyone.

54:38

Speaker 1
Coming home. Coming home to me. I don't have to disappear. I don't have to leave. Ah. Ooh.