[00:03] Speaker 1: Welcome to Signs of Life, exploring survival of consciousness, brought to you by Forever Family Foundation, on the web at foreverfamilyfoundation.org.

[00:15] Speaker 2: I call your name. The echo is haunting. The echo is always the same. I call your name. The echo is haunting. An echo can never be changed. So I call your name. Your name.

[00:47] Speaker 3: And welcome to the gathering on Signs of Life Radio. I'm Bob Ginsberg, and I'm with Tom and Melissa Gould and Marta Kristen. Go- hello, everybody.

[00:58] Speaker 4: Hello.

[00:59] Speaker 5: Hi.

[00:59] Speaker 2: Hi, there.

[01:00] Speaker 3: Th- this is our show where we take your questions, and you have the opportunity to call in and speak with us. We'd love to hear from you. The number here is 888-627-6008. Feel free to, to give us a call. We'll, we'll be nice, we promise.

[01:21] Speaker 5: (laughs)

[01:21] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[01:22] Speaker 3: Um, s- some of you have emailed your questions in, and we'll, we'll get to that. Uh, before we start, I wanna mention that we have two open spots for our upcoming April 17th retreat in Florida. That, that retreat is for parents who have lost children, but registration is also open for our July general retreat in Connecticut, um, and, uh, all those details are on our website. Just go to the Event page and click on the July summer retreat, and you'll have everything there. Uh, I think that's all I have. Anybody else need to make any announcements?

[02:00] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[02:01] Speaker 3: No? Okay (laughs) .

[02:04] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[02:04] Speaker 5: (laughs)

[02:04] Speaker 3: All right, so, we have, um, some questions. Th- the first one was interesting. It said, "Hi, Bob, Marta, Tom, and Melissa." Oh, hi "Uh, I'm a fan of the gatherings. I, I love to hear your thoughts on the questions we send in. Uh, at the end of each show," Tom always says, "'And one day science is going to accept it,' or words to that effect referring to consciousness surviving death and so on. I've read many books on the science of the afterlife, on life after this life, s- some recommended by Forever Family Foundation and others, uh, and it seems to me that some ele- elements of science do accept the theory that there is life after life. Some of the books I have read are 10 years old now, and new theories are continually being put forward by the same scientists and others. My question or request is, could you please discuss what elements of science do seem to accept that consciousness survives death of the physical body and which parts of science do not?

[03:04] Speaker 3: Has the big picture moved over the past 10 years? Surely we can't be stuck on the same scientific place on this even now." Uh, well, thanks, Joanne, for that. Um, I guess, first, yeah, you know, uh, um, the way Tom ends the show, i- if you're a long-time listener, we used to end the show by saying, "And science is going to prove it," you know? But we felt that before we get to the proof question, which may be somewhat elusive, we have to get science to, uh, you know, all of science to accept the evidence that's there. Um, and, a- and so I, I think, um, that's why, you know, we made that change, you know? As to, um... You know, I was thinking about that. I don't know that we've ma- over the past 10 years that w- we've made any... that science has made any great strides in determining the nature of consciousness. It just seems to be a problem that, that's very hard to tackle. Um, you know, we've done more brain mapping of, of, of people that are i- intuitive, um, and...

[04:13] Speaker 3: you know, but s- sometimes I worry a, a little bit about that, because consciousness may have less to do with the brain than, than what we think, (laughs) you know

[04:22] Speaker 2: Sure. 100%

[04:22] Speaker 3: But, um, you know, a, a lot of the phenomena that we talk about on, on this show is spontaneous in nature, and it doesn't lend itself to laboratory study. So, you know, the hard proof, I think, that a lot of people are looking for, you know, may be, uh, difficult, uh, you know, to come up with. But, uh, uh, I think that when you take the, the, the totality of the evidence that we... and that alliance, a lot of science does accept, and, and, and, and, and mediumship and near-death experiences and reincarnation and so forth, and you combine it with, you know, telepathy and remote viewing and intuition, you know, survival of, of, of consciousness after bodily death makes the most sense. It's the most logical, I think. So that's the proof.

[05:09] Speaker 3: So I turn it over to you guys-

[05:11] Speaker 5: (laughs)

[05:11] Speaker 3: ... um, for your thoughts on this subject.

[05:13] Speaker 5: Yeah, that was, uh... I, yeah, that was the statement I used to do, and then one set at one... at a retreat, uh, one of the attendees came up to me and say, "You know, every time you say, 'And science is gonna prove it,'" but then you have talked about all the different studies and all the scientists who have, uh, concentrated on it and, and what the evidence they've come," and he says, "They have proven it. It's just a matter of the big-picture science accepting it." Uh, science like in the terms of, of doctors. When you tell a doctor that you, you saw a loved one and that, and they tell you, "Oh, well, you're just imagining," or, or this, or, or doctors who try to explain away near-death experiences as a, uh, a side product from the, the anesthesia that you're having, and, and all of this stuff has been dispelled, and yet science as a whole-... still pooh-poohs it, still dismisses it. So that's where I'm coming from, with that someday, science as a whole is going to accept it.

[06:26] Speaker 5: Because when I say science is going to prove it, as this attendee said, "No, they've already proved it."

[06:33] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[06:33] Speaker 5: It's getting them to accept it that's the problem.

[06:36] Speaker 6: Yeah.

[06:36] Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, I would agree. You know, uh, uh, I think that... I, I don't know whether we're ever gonna, um, have something, what people would consider to be concrete proof. I don't know what that would consist of-

[06:50] Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

[06:51] Speaker 3: ... but I think that, aside from science, maybe the, the, the, the best proof for all of these personal experiences that people have been having for thousands of years. You know-

[07:03] Speaker 6: Yeah.

[07:03] Speaker 3: ... it, it's anecdotal evidence, but you have to pay attention, because it's worldwide and it's been happening, you know, forever, so it can't be... you can't chalk it up to experience, you know. So, um... And, and oddly enough, we know from our various people that we've interviewed over the years, is that I think the scientists that... many of the scientists that buy into it the most are the physicists.

[07:27] Speaker 3: You know, w- we've-

[07:28] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[07:28] Speaker 3: ... talked about that before, that, you know, because they sound like spiritualists when you talk to them, you know. The everything's connected, a single point of light, you know, uh, so it's, i- i- it's amazing. You know-

[07:40] Speaker 5: Quantum physics is-

[07:41] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[07:41] Speaker 5: ... physics, and quantum physics is the science that will explain all of this, uh, and that, and that's relatively new, within the last 50 years.

[07:52] Speaker 3: Right.

[07:53] Speaker 6: Is that the space between the space?

[07:55] Speaker 5: Yeah, the s- ... Yeah, that the, the power of the universe is not in the material, but in the space between the material. Uh, yeah. It's for that. So yeah, that's, uh... A- and also, I'd like to say that, uh, uh, ever since the early '90s, I have been keenly aware of, of 11:11. It comes up in many different ways in my life. And, uh, one of the reasons I joined, uh, the Foundation, uh, was to see what w- what this 11:11 was all about, and what, what, how it relates to me. And one of the, um, theories that, that I was introduced to was a Native American belief that in the 11:11... and their belief is that the ancestors are going to return to the Earth, and then show us the way to a more utopian society. Uh, so that's, that's what's on the cusp of apparently we're, we're, we're in a new age that is dawning, uh, a, a 2,000-year age that is, is relatively about 15 years, uh, from its inception now. And with it will come that increased awareness. Um, e- you know, many...

[09:22] Speaker 5: if you talk to any of our mediums, they'll tell us that we have it in our body already, uh, to be our own mediums, to, to converse with, uh, the other side of the veil. And I think what the 11:11 and the new age and all of that, uh, is bringing with it, as I, as the Native Americans believe in the ancestors coming back, is basically that we, as conscious individuals, will start communicating on our own with the other side. And with that will come the understanding of what's important in our lives, and, and, and will bring us to that new state of awareness. And, uh, so that's, that's where that's all coming from, from my, uh, s- perspective.

[10:19] Speaker 6: You know, I like that you mentioned that having that ability, like everybody might be able to do this. I've mentioned it before, having studied development with some of the spiritual mediums and evidential mediums that are involved with the Foundation. And although I've never, ever felt that I have any of that ability, I also became aware that I do feel like I'm hearing from my loved ones when I ask a question. And it's subtle, and it's just a knowing. And it always appears on the left side of my hearing, my fa- uh, it's like, uh, right here. And, and not on this side, but right over here. And, and I just... Like, if I ask a question, you know, v- of a, of a family member who's no longer with us, like, "Can you help me with this?" I, I am aware of a response, not a, a voice, not an image. I guess more of a knowing, just a knowing. So I, I feel like it's...

[11:28] Speaker 6: it can be that subtle, and people are expecting some big wow moment, you know, lightning, an image, orbs, but I think it's very, very subtle, and just believing is part of the acceptance.

[11:45] Speaker 2: I don't know if this is off subject, but, um, with Artemis 2, uh, taking off, blasting off yesterday, um, I began to remember so many of the astronauts with whom I spoke have said that going into space changes their way of thinking about the universe, about life after death, about consciousness. And, um, so I, I, I think that, uh, w- you know, we're that speck of dust-... and, uh, you know, rolling around, and, and, uh, that there's so much more that we don't know. And so, the thought of life after death is something that is, you know, I think a question that everyone has, and there are skeptics. But, uh, the idea of, of going into the universe, uh, and seeing so, that there's ... It's so deep and, and, um, and, and, and so ... encompasses so much that the thought of time and space and, and, um, and life after death seems, to me, to be pretty, pretty obvious.

[13:02] Speaker 2: And, uh, I, I don't know whether I answered that question but, but, uh, (laughs) having been lost in space once, I, I guess-

[13:10] Speaker 6: Uh-huh. (laughs) .

[13:12] Speaker 2: (laughs) I might, I might have some thought about it.

[13:15] Speaker 6: (laughs) Yes.

[13:16] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[13:16] Speaker 3: Well, I, I, I would also explain w- the reason that Marta met so many astronauts is that the NASA invited some of the cast members of Lost In Space-

[13:26] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[13:26] Speaker 3: ... to, to go there. And then, uh, a bunch of astronauts, you know, came up to Marta and said that one of the reasons that they became, um, an astronaut, uh, the- their interest was, was, um, started when they used to watch Lost In Space (laughs) -

[13:42] Speaker 6: (laughs)

[13:42] Speaker 3: ... which was pretty interesting, but-

[13:45] Speaker 2: But, but, but the idea of, of, of being in space and seeing the blue planet and recognizing that there's so much we don't know, so much t- ... And that we're part of this amazing, um, universe and maybe other universes. Uh, and so, uh, you know, as Tom and Melissa were saying, it's, you know, it, that, it, there has to be a consciousness, a, a, a, a, a, a unity, um, of consciousness that, uh, you know, I'm, I'm not really, um, an expert on any of this. But as ... I haven't read all the hundreds of books that you guys have read, but I, but I have a, I have the feeling.

[14:30] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[14:31] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[14:32] Speaker 6: That's, that's an important thing.

[14:33] Speaker 2: Yep.

[14:34] Speaker 3: The, the, the other thing, um, on the subject of, of, of being up in space and looking at Earth, almost all the, the, the astronauts, uh, describe it as a spiritual experience, you know?

[14:48] Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.

[14:48] Speaker 3: Seeing this ... We think of Earth as being so vast, and seeing it as this little dot from up in, in space, you know, just self-contained and, you know, being suspended, you know, in the universe, I mean, it one- it makes one think, "How could we not be one people? How could we have all of this division and wars and everything going on when we're all together in one-"

[15:16] Speaker 6: Yeah.

[15:16] Speaker 3: "... little space?" You know? It must be mind-boggling for them. Yeah.

[15:20] Speaker 2: Well, I have read, uh, that the, almost all of the astronauts feel differently when they come back. The spiritual, their spiritual lives have changed. And, um, yeah. And, and it would be ... That ... I think that would be very normal to have that reaction.

[15:37] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[15:38] Speaker 6: Yeah.

[15:38] Speaker 3: I, I agree. There's another question. When, when you, um ... Do, do our loved ones who pass feel sadness? I have read books that they do a life review. If this is true, do they reflect, feel emotions, question their actions? What is the point of a life review and who do they share it with? Um, and that, that's from Melissa. Um, you know, we believe the point of a life review is, is self, um, evaluation and judgment. You know?

[16:08] Speaker 6: Yeah.

[16:08] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[16:08] Speaker 3: It's as simple as that.

[16:10] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[16:10] Speaker 3: Um, they don't necessarily share it with anybody, but it provides a starting point in the ne- next realm, you know, 'cause you feel the, the good you, you imparted upon others and all of the negative stuff that made people, um, uh, that hurt people. And you wind up, um, in the next realm among people that are of like mind and, and character, you know? And, and, uh, so it's, um ... I think that's the, that's, that's, that's the point of it. So yeah, they, they, the, the emotions they feel are intense, you know? Love and, you know, and, and, and pain, um, so, and they do reflect. I guess that's the greatest reflection of all, you know?

[17:00] Speaker 3: (laughs) Seeing every-

[17:01] Speaker 6: Yeah.

[17:01] Speaker 3: ... your whole life in front of you. Boy, that-

[17:03] Speaker 6: Yeah.

[17:03] Speaker 3: ... that's one hell of a reflection. So, um-

[17:05] Speaker 6: I ha- I've ha- I have heard that there's no judgment, it's only yourself viewing these actions or occurrences, and it's self-judgment. But that you're never alone, that there's a spiritual guide, maybe a loved one who met you. That part isn't always clear to me. But you're not alone because it could be kind of painful. You know, you see something like, "Oh my goodness," you know, "I never intended my words to affect somebody that way, or my actions." And so, there's, there's guidance in that regard but it's all, as you said, Bob, it's all self-judgment. Nobody is telling you what you did was right or wrong, but you have w- the awareness in that moment.

[17:57] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[17:57] Speaker 6: And again, we've also heard ... And, and not ... And when I say we've heard, from the different readings that we've done, that what could become a negative experience during the life review is that when you see that you harmed somebody or, or hurt them, you feel it back yourself 100 times worse. So, some people would sp- make that the equivalent of hell.... you're, you're g- having this back at you, and you're feeling w- the result of your actions-

[18:34] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[18:34] Speaker 6: ... and how they affected others.

[18:36] Speaker 3: Yeah. And, uh, I think it's true that we have some guides. I think the g- you know, they have the life review as they're crossing over, you know, and then once they're in this other realm of existence, that's where the guidance comes in, you know, and I guess they could work with you. Um, yeah, I, I would imagine that could be kind of a heavy load, like you, you, you alluded to (laughs) , you know, feeling that intense emotions of, you know, you have, we have guides or helpers on the other side to work us through that. Um, let, let's take a caller. Uh, we have Lee from New York. Hello, Lee.

[19:15] Speaker 7: Hello?

[19:16] Speaker 3: Hi, Lee?

[19:17] Speaker 7: Hello?

[19:17] Speaker 6: Hi.

[19:18] Speaker 3: Hi.

[19:18] Speaker 7: Hi. This is Jimmy from House.

[19:23] Speaker 6: Oh.

[19:24] Speaker 3: How you do- how you doing, Lee? Um, yeah, I, I, I-

[19:27] Speaker 7: Um, no, Vin, I'm, I'm doing fine.

[19:30] Speaker 3: Good.

[19:30] Speaker 7: I'm doing fine. My, my ques- my question is, uh, when you're on the other side, okay, and let's say you're getting a reading, uh, from a psychic or a medium, can the spirit lie?

[19:44] Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good one.

[19:45] Speaker 6: Okay.

[19:45] Speaker 7: Or in heaven?

[19:45] Speaker 6: (laughs)

[19:46] Speaker 3: Well, uh, uh, it is a good country. I mean, I believe, um, that once we're on the other side in the spirit world, there's no incentive to or need to lie, because all of the human baggage that we had is, is no longer there. So, you know, s- sometimes, we, um, (sighs) you know, I mean, w- we think that it's-

[20:12] Speaker 7: Well-

[20:12] Speaker 3: ... in, in human terms when we're over there, there, you know, there's no ego. There's no greed, you know. There, there, there's no jealousy. So all the things that people-

[20:21] Speaker 7: Yeah.

[20:21] Speaker 3: ... usually n- lied about does, doesn't exist. So I, I, I've never-

[20:27] Speaker 7: I, I had a-

[20:28] Speaker 3: Yeah, go ahead.

[20:28] Speaker 7: I had a reading. I had a reading-

[20:30] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[20:30] Speaker 7: ... from ... But I, but I went through several people, okay, and I matched up, you know, what one said to what the other said. And, uh, basically, uh, they're saying, like, they, um, a spirit would come through and say, you know, oh, um, in this case, "My daughter's sick. Help my daughter, help my daughter." And then the third person I went to said, "No, that your, your mother-in-law is lying," and your follower-

[20:56] Speaker 3: Oh.

[20:56] Speaker 7: ... here came in and said that she's lying. He walked in and said, "She's a liar," and then the reader said to me, "I psychically said to her, 'You're lying,' and you're gonna go down to a different realm of hell for several hours." And I, and I, and, and I said, "Yeah, maybe 24 hours," uh, because in, in life, this person, my mother-in-law, never liked me. And, and I dreamt, I dreamt that when she died, she slapped me in the face. And I remember sitting up in my bed, and I said, "When I get off this bed, I'm gonna throw you a beating 'cause you slapped me in the face." And then I woke up. My head was on the pillow. And I was like, "Wait a minute. Did that really happen?" And then in the reading, okay, that's what I asked. And I said, "Is that ... Could that ... Could I be right that you slapped me?" And the, and the reader said, "Yes, she slapped you," and she said, "She really doesn't like you." So it, I think they can lie on the other side because this one is lying.

[21:58] Speaker 7: And I said, "Why is she lying? There has to be a reason why." (clears throat) And she said that, um, she's buying her daughter time, (clears throat) you know, 'cause, um, I'm having, uh ... My wife's estranged. And, um, she's buying her daughter time so that mother ... that her daughter can steal more money, and then, uh, at the end of the year hit me with divorce papers. So I said, "Look at you. You should be ashamed of yourself. You're a liar," you know.

[22:23] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[22:23] Speaker 7: And, um, and the other qu- the other question is, um ... I mean, if you ... We- we're done with that question. Another question is if, if Heaven has a punishment for someone, and you interfere with the punishment, you get that punishment? 'Cause I had an instance where I had ... I got a reading, and, um, said that, you know, like, my nephew was sick, and they're gonna misdiagnose him. And so I reached out to the father, my brother. And, uh, I, I gave him a warning. And then the next thing you know, it was like, uh, about a week or two later, I got severely punished. And then I just recently came through, uh, came ... Exper- experienced something else where, um, it was, I believe, I believe that Heaven, um, knew what my daughter was going to do to me. And her punishment was to die in Brazil. She was gonna take a trip to Brazil. And if anybody has ever checked up on Brazil, look at the amount of kidnappings and killings, and you look at the State Department.

[23:29] Speaker 7: It, the threat level is level two. And I had a, I had a, uh, a psychic reading basically saying, "If she goes, she's not coming back." So she misplaced her passport one day before, so, um, her destiny was to die. I interfered. My destiny was to save her. And now my daughter did something very, very terrible to me-

[23:54] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[23:54] Speaker 7: ... to the point where, um, I, I don't want nothing to do with her afterwards. She's dead to me.

[24:00] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[24:00] Speaker 7: But I believe that Heaven has ... Heaven knows they're gonna punish you. You interfere with it, you get it. But you know what? She's alive, above ground and breathing, and what can I tell you?

[24:14] Speaker 3: Yeah, I, I, I, I-

[24:15] Speaker 7: They said, you know?

[24:15] Speaker 3: ... per- I personally, uh, I, I, I don't believe that there's any punishment from, from the other side. And, and, and, um, we've also, uh ... Which, which is, you know, another interesting fact, is that, you know, negativity or-... evil entities never, ever come through, um, in, in medium readings. You know, I mean, I've never seen it happen. You know, and then maybe there's other reasons for that. But, um, but I, but on the other thing, I, I don't think that there's, there's, there's punishment. We were just talking about life reviews, and, you know, any punishment is, uh, is our own self-punishment. But, you know, it's all about love and compassion on the other side.

[25:00] Speaker 3: You know, that, that there's, there are, there are no, um, um-

[25:04] Speaker 7: I, I, I had an instance where, you know, I had said to someone, um, because they were Jewish. So, I said, "Are you familiar with the word Hashem?" Which means God in, in Hebrew. And then I said, "Are you familiar with the word coincidence?" And they said, "Yeah, yeah." I said, "Well, I'm gonna give you your definition. You need to steam clean your carpets, you walk down the block, you see Stanley Steemer, you say, 'Wow, what a coincidence.'" I said, "No. Coincidence is God," I said Hashem, "remaining anonymous." In other words, what goes around comes around. You do bad, you get it back. But when you get it back, it's, it's coincidence that you, it happened. And coincidence is God remaining anonymous. Could I be wrong about that?

[25:52] Speaker 3: Well, um, you know, there, there are a lot of people in the spiritual community who say there's no such thing as coincidence. You know, I don't know that I personally subscribe to that theory. But certainly, certain things are, are organized, um, by the universe, um, you know, coincidences are, uh, there are coincidences and there are synchronicities. Um, you know, and synchronicities are when two unrelated things, seemingly unrelated, come together to form meaning, and then it makes sense. But, um, it could be arranged by people on the other side, um, but, um, I don't know whether God or, you know, a supreme being gets into that minutiae, you know, of, of arranging things. They're more interested in the big picture. (laughs) But, um, uh, it's a tough subject. But in any event, um, I thank you for calling.

[26:49] Speaker 5: Yeah, I've got a couple of things-

[26:51] Speaker 7: Oh, did you, did you answer my, my question about the lying? You said that there were install-

[26:57] Speaker 5: Yeah, I wanted to, I wanted to get in on that. I've heard, um, many times that when you communicate with spirit or spirit communicates with you, uh, you're not gonna get what you want. You're going to get what you need. And a spirit will give you information that they think you need at the moment. And whether that comes through with a non-truthful statement or not, that, that to me is where I would, would see a, a, an untruth coming. That it's something, uh, meant for you to, to, to continue your experience the way it should be. Um, that's as close as I can get, 'cause I haven't heard, uh, this is the first time hearing about that. The other quest- point that, uh, make of if, if you do something and then you get punished for it, uh, I don't think that's a conscious punishment. Uh, I think that falls under karma. If you do something negative, you will get negative back. Equal and opposite reaction to an action, which is physics.

[28:09] Speaker 7: I, I did something, I did something positive. You know, I was warning someone, and, uh, I don't know. I guess the universe was, it's not, that wasn't supposed to happen. And the next thing I know, I was getting the brunt of it. Something really bad happened to me, and then it happened again this year. Uh, and, uh, uh, uh, it, it changes my perspective on, uh, heaven and hell. And, and then I, I saw Stephen Kang on TV. He, he was the gentleman that, uh, committed suicide, and he was in hell for eight hours.

[28:47] Speaker 3: Don't recall that.

[28:48] Speaker 7: See that or no?

[28:51] Speaker 3: No, I'm not familiar with that.

[28:52] Speaker 7: You're not familiar with that?

[28:53] Speaker 3: No. No.

[28:53] Speaker 7: Okay, um, yeah, 'cause then they, they, he was talking about how hell really works, where you, you actually, you're stinking. See, I was told when you go to heaven, this is from a meeting, when you go to heaven, and, uh, you get to feel all the pain and suffering you let everybody else feel. And then, then God decides to throw you down or to keep you. Um, and if he keeps you, then it's like, um, uh, it's like starting a new job. You know, you, you have to be retrained all over again. And they, uh, you know, they, they can't come through, through readings. That they need time to learn where they are. And, um, and I said to that, to this person, I said, "But wait a minute." I said, "A person on the block passed away, and I said some words at his coffin, very nice words, and he came through in a reading." And, but he couldn't speak. He had someone speak for him. And his, his words, what he said was, "Thank you for the words." Because I said some really nice words, you know.

[29:59] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[29:59] Speaker 7: So, yeah, the, the delivery, like, like who crosses you over and then how you're judged. And then Stephen Kang said, "No, I, I just went straight down, and I didn't feel my skin burning. My soul was burning." And, uh, and then the way this lady put it to me, you're, you're ca- you're brought before God, and you are made to feel all the pain and suffering that you caused everyone to feel. And then they decide. You know, there's no book of sins, you know, like, uh, they, they were joking about on Saturday Night Live what Father Guido saw this year. What's so long... Um, them, that could pretty, that pretty much tells you my age, but whatever. Um-There's no book of sins. He just makes you feel, they decide you go down or you go up. You only go down.

[30:45] Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, we're not that, we're not that far apart on that. W- you know, we were talking just before your call about the life review, and, and everybody exactly what you said. They get to feel all the good and all the harm that they caused to others. But, um, but that, um, we believe that, that, uh, it's self-judgment. It's not from above. We determine, you know, where we go. But, uh, in any event, uh, thanks so much for calling. Um, and, uh, have a good rest of the evening. Okay.

[31:24] Speaker 2: That was quite interesting, and things I had not thought about or heard about.

[31:30] Speaker 5: Yeah, well, y- I could back up a little bit as far as, you know, where we're coming from when we say our opinions is from evidence. We, we read a lot of books. We read the, the, you know, we have a, there's a group of scientists who are very closely, uh, connected with the foundation who have written many books and done countless studies on near-death experience, on, uh, reincarnation, things like that. So when we talk about the different things that we, uh, are, are talking about, it comes from many, many, many, many, uh, pieces of inf- uh, uh, of evidence, from many stories that all sort of have a common theme to them, and we pick that common theme. What we just heard, uh, are I've never heard before.

[32:30] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[32:30] Speaker 5: So we're talking about one account as evidence, and I don't think you can base your whole, uh, experi- uh, your whole belief system on one person's story. You need to get five, 10, a thousand people to tell you the same story, and I have only heard but that one story.

[32:52] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[32:53] Speaker 3: Yeah. And, and a, you know, a lot of, uh, we all interpret things in different ways, but, you know, uh, religion plays a part in all of this for a lot of people, you know. I mean, people with certain religious convictions are taught that, you know, there is a heaven and a hell, and you're, well, gonna burn in hell, and that kind of stuff. Most of the people in the spiritual community, when I say spiritual, I mean non rel- non, not ascribing to any particular religion, uh, don't believe, you know, that that's true at all, you know, that it's all about self-judgment.

[33:27] Speaker 3: So-

[33:28] Speaker 2: I, I have a question about that because I wonder how much the medium is, uh, a, a part of that, uh, kind of negative thinking. Because I, I don't, you know, because I'm, I'm with you. I, I, I think that there's, uh, that if, uh, that there's life after death, but it is, but it is filled with love and peace and, uh, and, and probably the, you know, uh, the most wonderful feeling that anyone could experience. So it's ineffable. Um, but to, to have a medium say to someone to answer to them, uh, give, give someone an answer saying, "Well, you know, you're going to rot in hell," or whatever it is that she said or he said. I just, I think it's, uh, I don't understand it. I, it, maybe you could illuminate that for me.

[34:24] Speaker 3: No, I, I think it's totally irresponsible on the part of the medium.

[34:27] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[34:27] Speaker 3: Plus the fact that have never, you know, we- we've been doing this for 20 some odd years. We've never heard a medium say that somebody in spirit is lying, you know.

[34:37] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[34:37] Speaker 3: I mean, I just don't, I, you know, I, I just think it was a bad medium. (laughs)

[34:45] Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah. And then, lots of-

[34:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. That was my-

[34:47] Speaker 5: You know, a lot of people, uh, uh, you know, obviously we do a medium certification process and we get a lot of people who apply, and for the most part, most of the people who apply have some sort of ability. They have had something happened where something psychic has occurred, and they ha- have picked up on it, and then they figure, "Well, now I can be the next medium on TV" kind of thing. And they come to us and they say, "Certify me as a medium so I can hang a shingle." And, uh, a lot of them don't pass. I mean, in fact, uh, 90% of the mediums who try to, uh, go through our process don't pass. But that's not necessarily meaning that they're gonna stop doing what they're doing. And, you know, if they can sit in a window, uh, uh, on a city street and have people come in, and, uh, they, they've got a crystal ball and the people lay down money for that, they'll tell them anything to get that money.

[35:52] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[35:52] Speaker 2: You know, I really appreciate that caller giving us this information 'cause as we've all said, we've, we've read a lot, and this is the first time we're hearing that. And certainly if anyone else could share a similar experience, we'll have, you know, more to examine. So I, I'm really glad he phoned.

[36:12] Speaker 5: And we're by no means saying that what he was saying is not true.

[36:16] Speaker 2: Right.

[36:17] Speaker 5: It's, it may be true. Uh, and it, and certainly is gonna be in our heads now. We're gonna be on the lookout for if this happens again-

[36:26] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[36:27] Speaker 5: ... and we'll follow where that leads us. But, uh, it just, you know-

[36:31] Speaker 2: But my, my impression was, I'm sorry, um, was that, uh, he was, he was very hurt.

[36:37] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[36:37] Speaker 2: And that, uh, someone who-... who says that they're medium could easily read that and, and give him what he wanted to hear rather than, uh, connecting with the, um, some- someone who would, uh, uh, it, would be a part of what we believe to be, um, the afterlife and, and the kindness and the love that comes from there, and, and the forgiveness. And, um, I, I don't know. I, I just, I just felt, um, I felt badly for, uh, this gentleman because, uh, he, he, he had been terribly hurt and, um, he needed more, um, lifting up.

[37:24] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[37:24] Speaker 2: And, uh, I would, uh, uh, I would hope that someone will do that for him.

[37:29] Speaker 3: Yes.

[37:29] Speaker 2: I do as well.

[37:31] Speaker 3: Yeah. Another question. Wh- when... Before we get to the next caller, when you hear, uh, in a mediumship reading that something will happen in the future in the life of someone living that you love and then it doesn't happen, is that due to free will on the part of that living person? I guess the question is, when things are predicted in readings, is that just one of several possible scenarios? Uh, uh, uh, I, I would say yes, um- Free, free will is always plays a role, um

[38:05] Speaker 2: Yes.

[38:05] Speaker 3: ... both here and, you know, and there. Um, now, the medium may give you psychic information that has nothing to do with spirit communication.

[38:14] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[38:15] Speaker 3: Um, and that is, as you, as the, as the, the listener, um, mentioned that it's just one fork in the road that they see. Yeah But there are many, many forks, not only the living person's free will, but the free will of other, you know, living people

[38:33] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[38:33] Speaker 3: Everything affects everything. Um, and then, again, a medium might, um, be giving you information, um, and that 'cause they're connecting to a, a discarnate entity, and they're giving you evidence so you believe you're talking to that. And then they say, "Oh, well, you know, your mom is, is telling me that she sees something good in your future, that you're gonna get a, a new job or something." That raises another question. Can the people on the other side, do they have access to information about future events that we don't?

[39:10] Speaker 3: Assuming- Mm-hmm

[39:10] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[39:11] Speaker 3: ... what... And then we're talking about linear time, you know-

[39:13] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[39:13] Speaker 3: ... and not even getting into the question of everything happening at once. So, um, yeah. I, I, I, you know... We always caution people, uh, not to base life decisions on psychic information 'cause it may be accurate, but there's also a pretty good chance that it won't be. And you, you won't know until it plays out, you know, so... And then, you know, the same question was, um... Well, like, I, I guess... Let's go to a caller so we got the, the, the caller and, um... We have, uh, Tim from Pennsylvania.

[39:52] Speaker 8: Hi, folks.

[39:53] Speaker 3: Hi, Tim.

[39:54] Speaker 2: Hi, Tim. Hi, Tim.

[39:55] Speaker 8: Hi. Hi. So, um, my, my question is... And following up on, on what's been stated here and what's been stated numerous times in other, um, uh, of these Thursdays (laughs) gatherings that we have, um, and it's been stated in the literature, you, you know, you have to delineate between what's true, what's ideally scientific, and what may be people who are just trying to make money off of and being fake about it. And the two questions that I had for you folks are, what's your view on, uh, the seances that occur that supposedly result in physical manifestations of spirit, either with ectoplasm or in some other way? And then sort of a corollary to that might be, um, there's also folks that have done a lot of work with audio and visual manifestations via electronic phenomenon.

[41:00] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[41:00] Speaker 8: So pictures of folks that come out on TVs, uh, as well as audio recordings of voices, uh, of folks that have passed which supposedly have been identified by their significant others as accurate representations of those voices. I'm curious as to your views on this and the scientific validity of this phenomenon.

[41:24] Speaker 3: Well-

[41:24] Speaker 2: Love it.

[41:25] Speaker 8: ... you know, and, yeah. And on the- on the fir- the first question, um, you know, I'll preface this by saying that having read, uh, um, accounts from going back to the Victorian era, the- there were many seances and many physical mediums that I think that were perfectly legitimate and can do amazing things. Um, and, um- Thank you

[41:50] Speaker 3: ... the difficulty was always that, and still to this day, that physical mediums require, um, darkness, um, you know, no, no lights. So it's very difficult for scientists and researchers to verify that, that the phenomena are real. Um, my pet peeve with a lot of physical mediums is that they say the reason that you can't introduce light is that's since the ectoplasm gets absorbed back in the body of the medium-

[42:22] Speaker 8: Okay.

[42:22] Speaker 3: ... um, it changes the structure of it and, uh, and it could hurt and injure, um, and cause illness to the medium.

[42:30] Speaker 8: Okay.

[42:30] Speaker 3: But there w- there were several well-known-

[42:34] Speaker 8: Okay.

[42:34] Speaker 3: ... physical mediums in yesteryear that performed all of these, uh, seances, uh, and, and phenomena in, in-... in full light, in daylight, um, and nothing happened to them.

[42:47] Speaker 5: But, but-

[42:47] Speaker 3: So, you know, the two don't seem to match up. Um, I, um, as well as Tom and Melissa-

[42:54] Speaker 5: Okay.

[42:54] Speaker 3: ... visited a, a well-known physical medium 'cause we were all curious, and we came away, um, less than ... (laughs) to be kind, less, less than convinced that, uh-

[43:06] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[43:07] Speaker 3: ... it was, it was real. Um, you know, on, on, on the subject of, of, of, uh, electronic voice phenomena-

[43:15] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[43:15] Speaker 3: ... uh, and instrumental transcommunication, um-

[43:19] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[43:19] Speaker 3: ... it's not fully accepted by the scientific community, but yet, we've seen a tremendous amount of, of, of evidence. Um, we used to take recordings that people have, have, have, uh, received, uh, where they have a loved one's, um, voice. Sometimes it sounded like their real voice and sometimes it sounds more like computer generated. And, um, and played them for large groups, on, on the theory that if everybody hears the same thing, it, it's a little bit, um, hard to dispute that, that, that, that people's brains were somehow making it up.

[44:00] Speaker 9: Okay.

[44:00] Speaker 3: But, um-

[44:01] Speaker 5: Let me repeat that.

[44:02] Speaker 3: A- a- and, um, on the other hand, I played some that, you know, every single, uh, every single person just knew exactly what it was. And scientists classify in class A, class B, class C. I've told this, this story before, but we had a, a, a medium that's certified by our foundation, and, and, uh, after, uh, after my wife passed away, um, she started experimenting with electronic voice phenomena and would send me the audio files. Um, and in one of 'em, uh, the medium said, uh, to my, you know, deceased wife, "What is the name of the organization that you started?" And you hear, "Forever Family Foundation." Uh, you know, on another day, there, there was a ... it happened to be my birthday. They said, "Do you have a message for, for Bob?" And I hear clearly, "Happy Birthday." So, you know, we'd, we've heard these things. We have, you know, kind of a library of them, and, and, and I, I think they're evidential, and, and, and anybody could do it.

[45:06] Speaker 3: You just need a, a, you just need a, uh, recording device. You could use your phone, and you, you let it run for 45 seconds or so and you shut it off, and you never hear it live but you hear it on playback. I have no idea why that's the case. Um, it still hasn't gained full acceptance in the scientific community, but I'm, I'm convinced that ... I mean, many of 'em have physical explanations, you know, but others, you know, do not, you know? And when they're crystal clear, it's hard to argue that it doesn't exist, you know? So, that it's real. You, Tom, Melissa, you have something to add to that, or ... Oh, you're, you're muted.

[45:56] Speaker 10: We heard that, we got fe- ... information, feedback.

[46:00] Speaker 3: Oh, feedback, yeah, okay.

[46:00] Speaker 10: Yeah. So, we were-

[46:01] Speaker 3: So, that's why maybe, okay.

[46:02] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[46:02] Speaker 3: All right, well then, yeah, if we get feedback that'll-

[46:05] Speaker 10: I don't wanna be annoying.

[46:06] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[46:07] Speaker 5: (laughs) But, uh, yeah, but I, I've, I've certainly been aware of it, and, and, and experienced it.

[46:13] Speaker 10: Okay.

[46:13] Speaker 5: I mean, I was, uh ... it wasn't a, a writing but, but yes, spirit can mess with electronics, and, and with recording devices. I had a, and I took my mom to a, a reading and, and had a, uh, a cassette, at the time, recording it, and my mom didn't have a re- cassette recorder, uh, uh, player, uh, so I had to transfer the cassette to a DVD, uh, or a CD so she could listen to it. And, uh, I remember during the reading, the medium turned to us, and she said, "Oh, he said he's gonna mess with the tape."

[47:01] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[47:01] Speaker 5: And that was it, you know, and then we went am- on our way. And then I went home and I was taking the tape and I was transferring it to a CD, and I'm listening to it as it goes. And when it got to that point, and she goes, "Oh, yes," and he said he's gonna mess w- r- r- the tape.

[47:16] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[47:16] Speaker 5: And, and the tape was ... And s- and so there it was.

[47:19] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[47:20] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[47:21] Speaker 5: Which leads me to the other point of the physical mediums. As Bob said, back 100 years, 200 years ago, physical mediumship was, was, you know, seances and things manifesting was, uh, prevalent. And I think what has happened is, because spirit is energy, and recording devices are energy, uh, electrical currents are energy, flickering of lights, changing channels on a TV, that's all electric. So, what the difference between now and 200 years ago is now, electricity is everywhere. Wires are everywhere. I- in the air, frequencies that are being picked up by radios and whatnot, is everywhere. So, a spirit might have a little more trouble getting through. Um, there, the energy of spirit could get swept up in, in the, the wiring that's all over us.

[48:31] Speaker 10: You're making me think of one of those laser ninja courses.

[48:34] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[48:35] Speaker 10: That you have to fit your way through these beams of light.

[48:40] Speaker 3: Well, Tim, I hope we touched on something that you can relate to. (laughs)

[48:44] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[48:44] Speaker 3: Good. Thanks for calling.

[48:45] Speaker 8: If I could just, uh, if, if I can just add real quickly.

[48:48] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[48:49] Speaker 8: Um, you know, you're right. There was a lot of physical mediumship maybe 100 years ago. From what I was able to read, at- at least, uh, um, a substantial amount of it was disproved, you know, people using cheesecloth. And it was probably a way to get in the paper or get yourself known. Today, (laughs) there's so many other ways to do this. Everybody seems to have a blog and all other kinds of ways of, you know, just putting yourself out there.

[49:18] Speaker 8: So, maybe the- the real physical mediums, uh, which, by the way, some of them will use red light or allow red light to be used-

[49:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

[49:27] Speaker 8: ... so you're able to- to see that.

[49:29] Speaker 2: Right.

[49:29] Speaker 8: Um, but, you know, I read all of the prize-winning, and including all the way up to honorable mention, essays in the Bigelow contest. So that's a couple thousand pages.

[49:41] Speaker 2: Oh, yes. Yeah.

[49:41] Speaker 8: And really distilling that, it seems like this stuff is the stuff that they really feel provides, uh, really solid core evidence, especially when folks come through with information that, you know, nobody else would- would really know. A- and like Bob was saying, you know, family, you know, forever family foundation, and you hear that in the person's voice, um, it really means something. Second thing I'll say real quickly is, I just wanted to give a plug to Marta. You know, Lost In Space is still on, um, 1:00 in the morning on Saturday nights, and it's nice that 60 years later, we can still enjoy your talents and the entertainment that you give to folks. So, I just wanted to throw that out there also.

[50:35] Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much. I'll- I'll send you the $20 ASAP. (laughs)

[50:42] Speaker 11: (laughs)

[50:43] Speaker 8: Only $20? That's not what we agreed to.

[50:45] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[50:46] Speaker 8: No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

[50:47] Speaker 2: Oh. She charges me $50. (laughs (laughs)

[50:52] Speaker 8: All right. Well, thank you all for your insights and for your willingness to do all of this. I think it's very important. People need to know what the ultimate reality is, and this at least gets people thinking about that, so.

[51:05] Speaker 2: Thanks, thanks, Tim.

[51:06] Speaker 8: Thanks again. You too.

[51:07] Speaker 11: You too.

[51:07] Speaker 2: Have a- Have a good night. I, you know, we- we only have two minutes left, and I- I- I wanted to mention, um, you know, that Marta's experience, like, she- she sat with her- her dying friend, you know, yesterday, and, um, you know, she got to witness some of the things that, you know, we- we talk about, including her friend who was- wasn't able to communicate, um, putting out her arms, right, Marta? To- She was talking to somebody? Yes, well, one- one of the things that I found fascinating and so beautiful was that she was- her eyes were closed the whole time I was with her, and I was with her for about three hours.

[51:49] Speaker 2: But in the beginning, when I got- arrived, um, you know, I- I- I always told her, "I'm going to touch your hand, I'm going to touch your face, I'm going to touch..." She- But she- she was, um, quite out of it, and- and- but she took her arms and wrapped- wrapped them in, like, a circle, and, um, and I thought, oh, she's holding someone, or she's telling me that she wants to hold me. And, um, uh, and- and- and then she'd, uh, wipe her lips, and I thought that they were just dry, but she would pat them like someone was kissing her. And, um, this was a woman who was extremely spiritual, and talked- didn't talk- didn't say- never used the word death. And I- I always sort of felt that was a little airy-fairy for many years. But I understand now. When she talked about transitioning, that- that death, to her, was a transition. And, um, and I- I pray for her. Betty.

[52:57] Speaker 2: Betty Malin is her name, and she was a healer, and she was a light in the life of everyone that she knew Yeah, and I- I, uh We don't... Unfortunately, our time is up, but thank you for telling us about her Uh, let us Yeah. And, uh, let us as one consciousness give our energy of loving thought by praying like this: To love one another, to treat others as we would like to be treated, to forgive others and return love for hate, kindness for anger, and to spread this feeling to everyone, to our fellow man, as well as the earth and its environment And I'd like to say, our loved ones are only a heartbeat away

[53:41] Speaker 11: And science is going to accept it.

[53:44] Speaker 2: (laughs) Good night, everyone. Thanks for joining us

[53:48] Speaker 11: Goodnight.

[53:49] Speaker 2: Goodnight.

[53:49] Speaker 11: Goodnight. (instrumental music)