[00:01] Speaker 1: Are you ready for new dimensions and countless possibilities today and for the future? It's an exciting new time, and the answers are out there. So join Mary Jane Pop as she explores the unique and unusual for a better life on Pop Talk, in search for the truth. And here she is, Mary Jane Pop.

[00:26] Speaker 2: And welcome to Pop Talk. Hey, we got a good one for you in this hour. A little bit later on, we're gonna be talking about, um, guilt and shame, that both of those things can actually ruin your life. So, how do you deal with it? How do you get over it or get out of it, whatever, uh, so that you can have a good and successful life? And a happy life, and I think that's more important than anything else. We'll find out. But before we do that, I'm telling you folks, there is something very special about a place in Washington, D.C. And if you've ever been there, you will know what I mean. Um, there is a silence, but it's a shouting silence. It tells so much, and so very many stories. We're gonna talk about some of those stories on Pop Talk. When I hear that, um, it brings tears to my eyes. And if it doesn't, then you don't have any feeling. (laughs) You know, I really mean that. My husband was a veteran, and, uh, that always stuck with me my whole life.

[02:03] Speaker 2: But this area that I just mentioned earlier only spans, like, 639 acres, but it has 400,000 stories. It's, of course, Arlington National Cemetery, the destination of heroes who have sacrificed their lives for our country. And Gary Zelinski, a U.S. Air Force veteran, went in search of America's better angels in his book called A Walk Among Heroes. He tells his story to drive home why America is still worth believing in. Gary, nice to have you with us on the show.

[02:43] Speaker 3: Well, so nice to be with you. Thank you for having me.

[02:46] Speaker 2: You bet. So, how did you start this journey, and why did you start this journey to tell, tell these stories about some of those wonderful human beings that sacrificed so much for each and every one of us?

[03:03] Speaker 3: Well, Mary, Mary Jane, the, um... I, I started my career, uh, about the time the Vietnam War was, uh, winding down, and I was a photographer when I joined way back, a hundred years ago-

[03:16] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[03:16] Speaker 3: ... uh, at 18. And, uh

[03:18] Speaker 2: Now, don't, don't, don't worry about it. My husband was a Vietnam vet, so I understand. (laughs)

[03:23] Speaker 3: (laughs) Well, I was on the tail end, and, um, I'm sure your husband was maybe a year or so older than me.

[03:29] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[03:29] Speaker 3: But I think we all lived through, uh, those of us that were alive then, a very divided country.

[03:35] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

[03:36] Speaker 3: And, uh, um, my job in the, in the military was as a photographer, and I gotta tell you, it was the greatest job in the world. But life happened. Um, I was fortunate enough to receive a commission. Uh, my career took me a much different path, but I always wanted to be a photographer. I wanted to go back to my roots, and so, uh, living in Washington, D.C., I just started taking pictures at Arlington, because it's just such a beautiful place.

[04:05] Speaker 3: It had-

[04:06] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

[04:06] Speaker 3: ... no more meaning than just it's a beautiful place to go take a walk. Um, I'm... And so, but the more times I, I visited, the more walks that I took, it became the stories of some incredible, um, not only military heroes, but families.

[04:22] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[04:23] Speaker 3: Young children, husbands and wives. And, as you said in, in the opening, 400,000 souls rest in our nation's most hallowed ground.

[04:32] Speaker 2: Yeah. It's, it's amazing. And each one had a story. Some more famous than others. That doesn't matter. But everyone had a story, and had a family, and had... Uh, I don't know. It's hard to... I know you say Vietnam War and we were divided, but you know what? We're divided today again. It's not... It hasn't changed as much as I would like to if it changed, if you know what I mean.

[05:01] Speaker 3: Well, um, you know, uh, uh, that's the one question that comes up a lot since I, um, uh, wrote the book. And, um, I am not an expert in today, and, uh, I will tell you, I'm not an expert in, in the past either. But I, I, um... During these walks, I became, uh, fascinated by the history of Arlington and, um, and our nation at the time that Arlington became a cemetery.

[05:30] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[05:30] Speaker 3: And, uh, I'd like to, if you don't mind, remind your viewers that, um, in Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address, he was appealing to the Southern states not to secede, um, and, and not to go to war with the Union.

[05:46] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[05:46] Speaker 3: And in fact, seven states had already seceded. And so, his appeal in the last paragraph was, "We must not give into hatred. We must search out the better angels of our nature."

[05:58] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[05:59] Speaker 3: And that became the focus of my book, finding those better angels.

[06:04] Speaker 2: I think that's fabulous. It really is. And some of the names that are buried there, you know, we look back at old movies, and I love, I love watching old movies 'cause they had, uh, they had more character. Y- you got involved because you wanted to find out and be a part of it. It was like a family, (laughs) you know? Um, but one of them was Audie Murphy. And, I, uh, everybody used, they loved Audie Murphy when he used to make a lot of Western movies, and some, some, uh, military movies. Uh, but they never knew what his background was in the military, did they?

[06:41] Speaker 3: Well, (clears throat) you know, as, um, as I get older, I find that, um, people, um, young- youngsters may not recognize Audie Murphy. I, I think, uh, certainly everyone in the military knows, uh, the story of Audie Murphy, the most decorated soldier of World War II, uh, most decorated soldier in the history of the United States. Um, stood on a burning tank to save his company from, um, c- companies of German soldiers trying to annihilate them.

[07:08] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[07:08] Speaker 3: And he fended them off, uh, in three directions, uh, a- again, with a machine gun, standing on top of a burning tank. He received every medal for valor, was awarded every medal for valor that our nation can bestow, and also, the medals for valor from France and Belgium. So, Audie Murphy was a phenomenal individual. He survives the war, and then he, and then, he, his, his picture, because he's such a hero, his picture's on Life magazine. And I remember Life magazine.

[07:40] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[07:41] Speaker 3: Uh, you're too young, Mary. But, um-

[07:42] Speaker 2: Oh, oh, oh, no, no, no. B- believe me, I understand, (laughs) I know Life magazine. Look, I'm well into my 70s.

[07:49] Speaker 3: (laughs) Well, you got me by a day and a half.

[07:52] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[07:55] Speaker 3: Um, so, so, um, so Audie Murphy is on the cover of Life magazine.

[07:59] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[07:59] Speaker 3: Life magazine. And he gets discovered by none other than James Cagney, who gets a hold of him and says, "You should come to Hollywood and do, do motion pictures." So Audie does.

[08:11] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[08:11] Speaker 3: And he stars in over 40 films. (laughs)

[08:13] Speaker 2: Wow.

[08:14] Speaker 3: Um, mostly Westerns. Um, stars in his own autobiography. Um, another little, uh, fact about Audie Murphy, he wanted Tony Curtis to play him, and the studio said, "No, you would do a better job." (laughs)

[08:27] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[08:27] Speaker 3: So, I mean, so, so Audie's had more lives than most of us get to have.

[08:33] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

[08:34] Speaker 3: Well, so, in researching Audie Murphy, I, I said, "What can I possibly say about this man that hasn't already been written 100 times?" And the more I read, I became fascinated by his wife. Because Audie, A- w- when he d-, Audie died in a plane crash-

[08:52] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[08:52] Speaker 3: ... after 20 years of marriage, and he went down in a small plane in Berent- uh, Virginia.

[08:57] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[08:58] Speaker 3: And passed, passed away. And Audie, uh, was haunted by his demons from combat. Um, was known to sleep with a loaded revolver under his pillow.

[09:08] Speaker 2: Oh, really?

[09:08] Speaker 3: Uh, so he was genuinely haunted by, um, post-traumatic stress. He became an advocate for the care of soldiers in the Korean War and, and, uh, early Vietnam War, for better care for mental, mentally illness of soldiers. And, uh, so they-

[09:24] Speaker 2: Well, they didn't, they didn't call it PSTD back then, you know? It was shell shock. (laughs)

[09:31] Speaker 3: They, they, shell shock, exactly. And, um, and what we've learned over the, and again, I'm not a doctor. I've just done some reading.

[09:37] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[09:37] Speaker 3: And, um, the one thing that I've learned is, is, uh, the, the term PTSD, M- Mary Jane, is, is a misnomer.

[09:47] Speaker 2: Hm.

[09:47] Speaker 3: I- it's not a disorder. Um, it, it's, it's an injury.

[09:52] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[09:52] Speaker 3: It's a traumatic injury to the brain.

[09:54] Speaker 2: Yep.

[09:54] Speaker 3: And so, a- a- and, and so, it, it, it's an injury that doesn't heal. You can learn to live with it. You can, you know, you can go through lots of different, um, things that help you cope. But it never, ever goes away.

[10:09] Speaker 2: You're right.

[10:09] Speaker 3: And so, um, right now, today, uh, I, I am committed to doing what I can to, um, help, help veterans-

[10:18] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[10:18] Speaker 3: ... navigate some horrendous, um, memories and, and, and, and get on with their lives. Um, but, but here, here's the one, uh, that I became fascinated with about Audie Murphy. He passes away. Um, most of his money's been squandered away because he, uh, he gambled.

[10:37] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[10:38] Speaker 3: So, uh, he, now he's gone, and his, his wife of 20 years is left w- with no money. And so, she takes her two young boys and moves into a one-bedroom apartment about 35, 40 miles from where we live, my wife and I live right now, in Southern California.

[10:56] Speaker 2: Oh.

[10:56] Speaker 3: And she has to get a job. Um, and she took, takes a job at the Veterans Administration in California, in, in Southern California.

[11:05] Speaker 2: Huh.

[11:05] Speaker 3: And she works there for another 30 years.

[11:08] Speaker 2: Wow.

[11:08] Speaker 3: And the story of Pamela Opal Lee Murphy is an incredible story that doesn't often get told. She was a patient advocate. If soldiers were waiting too long, for example, she would grab them by the collar and drag them into the doctor's office. And say, "See my soldier now." Um, the bureaucracy of the VA wanted to do away with her position. Hundreds of, of her, her, her, her soldiers li- lined the, the entrance to the hospital and said, "Not our Pamela.

[11:42] Speaker 3: Take anyone else, but not our Pamela."

[11:44] Speaker 2: Wow.

[11:44] Speaker 3: She, she was a force to be reckoned with at the, at the Veterans Administration. And her story deserved to be told, and that's one of the reasons that it inspired me to write the rest of the chapters of the book.

[11:57] Speaker 2: Amazing. Amazing. You know, i- it's, it's crazy because people who are strong, Audie Murphy was one of them, um...They never show that inside. They keep it inside. Uh, I know my husband, you know, like I said, he was a Vietnam vet. Uh, he, he never, thank God, he didn't come back with PTSD, but he never talked about it. He never talked about being in the military or being in Vietnam unless I asked him specific questions.

[12:28] Speaker 2: And I see-

[12:29] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[12:29] Speaker 2: I think a lot of soldiers are that way when they come back from any war. Didn't make any, doesn't make any difference, whether it was World War II or, uh, Vietnam, or Desert Storm, or whatever. Um, it, they keep it inside themselves and try to be strong. And that can be very devastating to them, because they, they live with it, and we expect them to live with it. (laughs) And we expect them to be normal when they come back. And you know, it's just not possible. It's not possible that you can be in that situation and then come back and say, "Oh, well, (laughs) here I am.

[13:02] Speaker 2: Everything's okay and fine."

[13:06] Speaker 3: Y- y- you know, um, there's a phrase in the military, uh, called, um, uh, "No one serves alone."

[13:13] Speaker 2: There you go.

[13:13] Speaker 3: And it's so, so true. I, I know that the era of Vietnam was much different than it is today, and the status quo of the military was much different, uh, back when your husband served and, and when I first en- enlisted.

[13:27] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[13:27] Speaker 3: Um, but that being said, uh, the, the, the life of somebody in the military today, uh, in Vietnam, certainly in World War II, i- it's unlike anything else in the civilian world. And-

[13:40] Speaker 2: Exactly.

[13:40] Speaker 3: ... you, n- no one, no one gets through that with- without being, uh, impacted profoundly. And the military family becomes that lifeline. Um, if, you know, w- our- our- our first duty assignment, my first duty assignment was when we got married, and we moved, moved to rural Arkansas.

[14:01] Speaker 2: Mm.

[14:01] Speaker 3: So we were a long, long way away from, um, th- the people we had grown up with, our families.

[14:07] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[14:08] Speaker 3: And so, the military family, uh, we, we became adopted. And we, we are here today because that family took care of us.

[14:16] Speaker 2: Abso- absolutely. And many times, we stay close. I mean, my husband stayed in the Reserves, oh gosh-

[14:23] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[14:23] Speaker 2: ... 29 years, something. He retired a lieutenant colonel going through the Reserves. So, you know. But I think that was his link, his link to stay and do the best he can for younger people. When he was in Vietnam, he used to, we used to send tapes to each other 'cause we didn't have, we didn't have any computer Zoom or anything like that. Um ...

[14:46] Speaker 3: Right.

[14:46] Speaker 2: But he would tell me, you know, "They're s- they're so young." Uh, he was about 24, I guess, when he went over. Um, and, and-

[14:55] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[14:55] Speaker 2: ... a little older. But you know, there are kids in, in the Vietnam War. And, and they didn't call it a war. Don't you, don't you love it? Um, but then he would make sure that they would work hard, so they wouldn't do drugs and wouldn't get in trouble, (laughs) you know. He kind of looked after them. And that's, you're right, the military is, is, it is a brotherhood, period.

[15:17] Speaker 3: Well, and, and the military has, um, changed dramatically, uh, uh, in a lot of ways. It, um, it's on the forefront of, of social change. In, uh, another story from my book-

[15:30] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[15:30] Speaker 3: ... The Walk Home of Heroes, um, in, in World War II, the military was segregated.

[15:35] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

[15:36] Speaker 3: It was, it was just, was sehr- blacks served in separate units, so there was an African American, um, uh, unit that were not integrated with white soldiers.

[15:47] Speaker 2: That's right.

[15:47] Speaker 3: And similarly, uh, women were, um, in, had a c- completely different command structure. So today, it, it's an, it's an all-integrated force, right? And I'm sure that there's a lot of controversy about what jobs people can do and stuff like that. Th- that's all well out there. The, the, the truth is, our history is one in which we've, we've evolved. And, uh, just an example from the book, um, the greatest boxer of all time. Now, I'm not, uh, before I wrote the book, I was not a fan of boxing. The more I read about it, the more I learned, and the more I, uh, uh, become acquainted with, um, uh, uh, California Golden Gloves, um, boxers, I, I have been overwhelmed with their, um, their physical capabilities, their, um, um, th- their poise and professionalism as a, as an athlete.

[16:47] Speaker 3: And I gotta tell you, um, during World War II, the greatest boxer of all time, Joe Louis-

[16:54] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

[16:54] Speaker 3: ... uh, African American-

[16:56] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[16:56] Speaker 3: ... he, um, he didn't have to go. He was the world heavyweight champion. He didn't have to go.

[17:01] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[17:02] Speaker 3: But he, he made a simple statement. He said, "There's a lot of things wrong with America, but Hitler's not gonna fix 'em."

[17:09] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[17:09] Speaker 3: So he enlisted. He enlisted for the sole purpose of encouraging other Black Americans to enlist into a segregated service. And so, he ended up entertaining two million of our troops. And the, he didn't just entertain Black troops, he entertained all the troops, and he was loved by all Americans. When, when Joe Louis passed away in, in, in the '80s, um, somebody he had befriended in, in World War II as a radio announcer, his previous status as a radio announcer, an old radio announcer befriended him.

[17:50] Speaker 3: And in, in 1981, I believe, now President Ronald Reagan-

[17:56] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[17:57] Speaker 3: ... waived the burial requirement so Joe Louis could be buried at Arlington.

[18:00] Speaker 2: Wow.

[18:01] Speaker 3: And if, if ever there's a great American that's a great American story overcoming hardship, it's one of Joe Louis.

[18:08] Speaker 2: Yeah.Now, you also mentioned about, uh, women, you know, in the military. And I mean, when you look back at World War II, uh, women were training the men to fly the, you know, with the different squads and, and all that. But they weren't allowed to be in combat, uh, and yet they were training-

[18:28] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[18:28] Speaker 2: ... the men that were gonna go (laughs) in combat. Uh, and it just kind of makes you wonder, yes, we have evolved. Uh, I just hope we don't start going backwards. That's my, my wish and my dream, um, because not everybody is suited for the military. We all know that. I don't care if you're a man or a woman, or whatever. Um, but you have to give everyone a chance because, you know, they're willing to give their lives to keep our country going. Why would you want to exclude anybody? (laughs) You know what I mean?

[19:03] Speaker 3: Well, you, you know, um, uh, n- n- I'll tell you one story from the book and one, one story that just, just deeply personal for my wife and I.

[19:11] Speaker 2: Okay.

[19:12] Speaker 3: Um, we, my wife has a, a grandneat. She's, um, eight and a half months pregnant.

[19:19] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[19:20] Speaker 3: Um, her, um, um, her husband is up for, um, chief petty officer.

[19:28] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[19:28] Speaker 3: And if he gets it, he's gonna have another deployment under, uh, that he must go on. The latest deployment he was on was supposed to go for six months, and he ended up in, in the Middle East, uh, where, uh, apparently there are still hostilities and there's still, um, we're still losing Americans.

[19:48] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

[19:49] Speaker 3: It doesn't often make the news, but there's some real shooting going on. And this young man, um, got, uh, extended, so he spent nine months on an aircraft carrier in the Middle East. And I can do nine months today standing on my head. But with a young wife at home, pregnant, um, I don't know.

[20:12] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[20:12] Speaker 3: It's, it's an incredibly difficult life.

[20:14] Speaker 2: Sure is.

[20:15] Speaker 3: And again, that military family, um, does wonders of uniting those young sailors, airmen and, and soldiers.

[20:24] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. No, absolutely. And what I, I found fascinate- I didn't know that there are CIA agents, um, but maybe even nameless in death that are there, uh, at Arlington, um, and that are trailblazing astronauts are there, right?

[20:45] Speaker 3: Um, yes. Um, the chapter in my book, uh, about a CIA agent, uh, I'm, I'm, I went to take a photograph of, um, a, um, a Medal of Honor recipient, a, um, uh, W- Wild Bill Donovan who is credited as being the father of the Central Intelligence Agency.

[21:05] Speaker 2: Oh, okay.

[21:06] Speaker 3: He, he received a, uh, he was awarded the Medal of Honor in World War I, and during World War II, he formed what was called the Office of Strategic Services, and they did some clandestine stuff and, and, um, the, the things that they did in World War II to save our troops are legendary.

[21:24] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

[21:25] Speaker 3: Well, so I wanted to, I wanted to, you know, take a picture, uh, photograph of his grave. But in researching the CIA in Arlington, I came across the name of a young Marine captain who had gotten out of the Marines. His name was John Michael Spann, and Joh- Johnny Spann was the first American to die-

[21:51] Speaker 2: Right.

[21:51] Speaker 3: ... in our war against terror. So our, our 20-year war in Afghanistan, the first American boots on the ground to die in Afghanistan was a CIA officer.

[22:03] Speaker 2: Oh.

[22:04] Speaker 3: And bec- because he was a previous, um, United States Marine Corps officer, he was eligible to be buried at Arlington. Uh, a little-known, uh, fact about John Michael Spann, he's only, uh, one of a handful of people who are, who are afforded a military funeral and also a star on the memorial wall at CIA headquarters.

[22:30] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[22:31] Speaker 3: So I felt if I was gonna write a book, uh-

[22:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to.

[22:34] Speaker 3: ... about a famous, uh, war hero, uh, Wild Bill Donovan, I, I better put it in context with, uh, some people from today, and no one better than J- Johnny Spann.

[22:46] Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and also, just n- 'cause, uh, looking at the women side too, Christa McAuliffe.

[22:51] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[22:51] Speaker 2: Uh, she's, she's buried there too, right?

[22:55] Speaker 3: Um, they are... Uh, I don't know about... Well, first off, um, there's, there, there's a memorial to both the Challenger and the Columbia, um, shuttle disasters.

[23:07] Speaker 2: Yes.

[23:08] Speaker 3: And, uh, and, and, and there's a number of astronauts that are buried at Arlington, um, and, um, it, and I know that people that were riveted by the sp- space race and back in the, the days of Apollo and, uh, and those, and those things, um, the, the, the shuttle became commonplace for most Americans up until the point where in 1986, one of them blew up.

[23:35] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[23:36] Speaker 3: And the, the, there are so many tragedies about, uh, uh, uh, space disaster, but the, the program that our first teacher in space was on that flight, and she lost her life.

[23:51] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[23:52] Speaker 3: They were actually programmed to bring more teachers into space because the shuttle had become its namesake, a shuttle.

[23:59] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[23:59] Speaker 3: And after, after that disaster, that program got scrapped, and they just decided that, "Well, maybe we're not gonna send a teacher into space just yet." So, um-

[24:10] Speaker 2: That's sad.

[24:11] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[24:12] Speaker 2: That's sad.

[24:12] Speaker 3: Um-W- we try. Sometimes we succeed, but, um, that tragedy, that loss, the first teacher in space was truly devastating to this country.

[24:22] Speaker 2: Got it. Now, are, are you gonna be buried there?

[24:27] Speaker 3: Um, i- I would, I would like to be. I would be honored if we are. Um, there's already 400,000, um-

[24:38] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[24:38] Speaker 3: ... not only soldiers, but their families, uh, buried at Arlington. And there's only 639 acres and it's, um-

[24:46] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[24:46] Speaker 3: ... it's filling up. I'm qualified because I'm retired. Um, not everyone that's been a, a, that's a veteran is qualified to be buried at Arlington, but I would certainly be honored if I could.

[24:58] Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely. That is an honor, for the, for the whole family, for that matter. Do you have a website?

[25:05] Speaker 3: I do. I do, Mary Jane. It's, um, it's my name, Gary Zelinski, G-A-R-Y, last name Zelinski, Z-S in zebra, E-L-I-N-S-K-I.

[25:15] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[25:15] Speaker 3: Uh, .com. And you can read excerpts from my book. You can have links to, there are links to where to buy it. Um, and, um, there's some others of, of my musings. Some, some of them are even funny, and nothing to do with, um, a somber topic like Garland.

[25:32] Speaker 2: Well, let me put it this way. It's something that we all need to know, and your book should be in every classroom, by the way. Um, as, as kids growing up, they, they need to know what history really was before it's being kind of changed (laughs) along the way. And I don't want it to be changed. We need to have our, our young people grow up knowing the true story and the heroes.

[25:55] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[25:55] Speaker 2: And they're not only the ones that are buried at Arlington, but a lot of heroes are all out there.

[26:01] Speaker 3: Yeah, Mary Jane, real, real quick for your listeners. Arlington is in, in, in the abstract, if you think about it as a cemetery in Virginia. But because so many families, so many military members and their families are interned in Arlington, every small town in America, I'll, I'll, I'll bet you, I'll, I'll bet you, you, you can sp- you can trace people that you know-

[26:28] Speaker 2: Yes.

[26:28] Speaker 3: ... you've met on the... to, to relatives who are buried at Ar- Arlington.

[26:33] Speaker 2: Uh-huh.

[26:33] Speaker 3: So I view Arlington as really a, a, a, a hub to, to reach out to all Americans-

[26:41] Speaker 2: You betcha.

[26:41] Speaker 3: ... to these small towns to find a hero. And when you do that, you really do find a better America.

[26:48] Speaker 2: You bet. Gary, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us and for writing the book. Uh, I assume the book is available every place, A Walk Among Heroes?

[26:57] Speaker 3: It, it is, yes. Um, um, um, at Barnes & Noble and Amazon and wherever good books are sold.

[27:03] Speaker 2: Fantastic. Well, keep up the good work, and you're welcome to come back anytime, 'cause I know you have a plethora of stories about what's happening-

[27:11] Speaker 3: Cool.

[27:11] Speaker 2: ... out there.

[27:12] Speaker 3: But... And, and thank you for all the good work you do for the community.

[27:16] Speaker 2: All right.

[27:16] Speaker 3: Uh, it is appreciated.

[27:18] Speaker 2: Right back at ya. Take good care now.

[27:21] Speaker 3: Bless you. Thank you.

[27:22] Speaker 2: Gary Zelinski. You can go to garyzelinski, Z-E-L-I-N-S-K-I, .com. Name of the book again, A Walk Among Heroes. And boy, that is so true.

[27:34] Speaker 4: We're Sell My House Fast, and we've been buying unwanted houses for cash fast for 25 years. We buy old houses, new houses, abandoned houses, all types of houses, and we'll buy your unwanted house for cash fast. If you're relocating, inherited a home you don't want, if you've got a tenant you really don't want, Sell My House Fast will buy it fast. If you're behind on taxes, wanna avoid foreclosure, if you're going through a divorce or just need cash fast, we'll buy your house at a fair cash price, and we'll close fast too. Sell with us and there's no real estate agent, which means no real estate commissions. We'll do all the repairs, all the cleaning, and clean-up. We've got hundreds of Google five-star reviews because our offers are fair and the process transparent. Call now to connect with a qualified local buyer. Call 1-800-735-8731. 1-800-735-8731. 1-800-735-8731.

[28:34] Speaker 5: Sometimes life is wonderful, and sometimes it's not. Cherish the good, but always be prepared for life's challenges. At Private Healthcare, we provide the peace of mind you deserve. With Private Healthcare, you'll get the coverage you want and healthcare you need. If your employer doesn't supply healthcare coverage and you don't qualify for Medicare or Medicaid, you need to give us a call right now. Private Healthcare is private health insurance for ages 65 and under with medical, dental, vision, and even prescription coverage. When life comes at you unexpectedly, you need to be ready, and health insurance is your financial safety net. If you're looking for health coverage at the best price and your annual household income is 35,000 or more, give us a call at 800-694-0036. That's 800-694-0036. 800-694-0036.

[29:35] Speaker 6: That's the ease at which you get information. You want it, you get it. Like that. Ask your phone, group chat, smartphone. You're always connected and informed in real time. No waiting. So if you're diabetic and still using finger sticks to read your blood sugar, what are you waiting for? Knowing your blood sugar levels instantly is important for managing diabetes. Call US Med at 888-665-0704 to learn more about continuous glucose monitors, a real-time instant method to track your blood glucose. US Med is an approved provider for Medicare and over 1,000 private insurers. And the best part? Call 888-665-0704 and we'll give you a free insurance benefits check today. So call 888-665-0704 today. That's 888-665-0704. And manage your diabetes as easy as (ding) .

[30:34] Speaker 7: If your credit card bills have gotten out of hand, call Consolidated Credit now. If the interest rates on your credit cards are so high it'll take years to get out of debt, call Consolidated Credit now. They've helped over 10 million people. Without destroying your credit, they can reduce your interest rates, lower your total payments up to 50% to get you out of debt fast. For a free consultation, call Consolidated Credit now. The program works!

[30:59] Speaker 8: Call 800-806-9175. 800-806-9175. 800-806-9175.

[31:08] Speaker 9: Consolidated Credit Solutions Incorporated, 5701 West Sunrise Boulevard, Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 33313. Licensed by the New York Department of Financial Services and by the Vermont Department of Financial Regulation. Kansas CSO 0019051, Maryland DM1492, Oregon DM892. Licensed by the Virginia State Corporation Commission, license number DC83. Service may adversely affect the individual's credit. Non-payment of debts may lead to additional finance charges or collections activity, including legal action. Actual interest rates, length of program, and monthly payment reductions will vary by consumer and creditor. Yours could be higher or lower. Not a loan company. We do not lend money.

[31:33] Speaker 8: Do you have trouble getting in and out of the bathtub? Are you afraid you'll slip and fall entering or exiting a tub? SafeStep walk-in tubs can transform your bathtub from an area of concern to a calming refuge. Call them today at 1-800-242-1585 and save $1,600. SafeStep walk-in tubs and showers are proudly made in Tennessee, and offer an ultra-low step-in, avoiding that difficult climb over a traditional bathtub wall. They also offer a variety of therapeutic benefits that may help soothe your aching muscles and joints, increasing your mobility, boosting your energy, and improving your sleep. SafeStep walk-in tubs are designed to easily fit your existing tub space, and are often installed in as little as one day. Just dial 1-800-242-1585 today to save $1,600 and receive a free shower package. That's 1-800-242-1585 for a free, no obligation consultation, and to save $1,600. SafeStep walk-in tubs. Safety never felt so good.

[32:34] Speaker 4: If you struggle to keep up with conversations, if you have trouble hearing the TV or radio, or in restaurants, Audien Hearing Aids wants you to hear better, because when you hear better, you're going to feel better. There are over half a million very happy Audien Hearing Aid customers. They're happy because they now live a better life, and they live a better life because they hear better. And they hear better because they purchased a full pair of Audien ATOM 2s for only $189. Audien was rated in the best OTC hearing aids of 2024 by USA Today. You trust USA Today, so you can trust Audien. The ATOM 2 is so tiny, nearly invisible, but they've got great sound quality. And did we mention only $189 for a full pair? Shipping is free, and you get a 45-day money-back guarantee. So easy to order. Call Audien. Call 1-800-715-6440. 1-800-715-6440. 1-800-715-6440.

[33:33] Speaker 2: (french music plays) I'm Mary Jane Poppe, host of Pop Talk, asking, are you searching for the truth? On Pop Talk, my guests and I love to delve into stories that will make your life better, happier, perhaps even more resilient. Come join me as I take you on a journey to meet the best and brightest minds in health, wealth, and hope. I invite you to meet some gutsy people who have experienced the worlds of the unknown. They've gone beyond this life, from ghosts to the supernatural and unexplained. We need to know, are we alone? Do you believe in UFOs and aliens and the paranormal? What about the ancients, shamans, and psychics? And how about your dreams? On Pop Talk, we ask the hard questions, and we seek out the answers you want to know together on Pop Talk. We look for more than just what we see and hear. We look beyond our reality. Give Pop Talk a listen on the BBS Radio Network Station One. Let's explore this world and who knows what we will discover together.

[34:30] Speaker 9: Amore. Break my heart. Hearts get broken. Steal me blind. Money's just a token. Stranger than our love was, stranger than it seemed. The honesty I thought we had was some crazy thing I dreamed. Another B-grade movie for life's big silver screen. For the king of hearts, he always takes the queen. Ooh, ooh, baby. Ooh, ooh, baby. Everybody makes mistakes.

[35:33] Speaker 2: Boy, ain't that the truth. Everybody makes mistakes, but is there a reason behind it? Have you ever let shame trap you into negativity? Have you ever struggled with self-worth or past feelings that you never measured up? Well, Rick Patterson has faced those feelings. From evangelical pastor turned corporate leader, that I gotta find out how that happened, Rick Patterson has turned corporate leader because he shares how to break free from the hold of shame and rediscover joy in his book called Shame Unmasked. Rick, nice to have you with us on the show.

[36:17] Speaker 10: Well, I'm glad to be here. Thank you v- very much for that kind intro.

[36:20] Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you, w- w- what a big jump from pastor to corporate leader. How did that happen?

[36:27] Speaker 10: Well, the jump is even probably odder than you can imagine-

[36:31] Speaker 2: Uh-huh.

[36:31] Speaker 10: ... in that, uh, uh, I started out in corporate America. I got a bachelor's degree in engineering, and I went into sales and sales and marketing and sales leadership.... and spent 10 years, uh, working in heavy industry, and I was an atheist at that time.

[36:47] Speaker 2: Oh.

[36:48] Speaker 10: And then about 10 years later, I spent a lot of time studying and researching and whatnot, and I ended up getting a master's degree in divinity and, uh, ended up, uh, we adopted a sibling group of four children, my wife and I. And at that time, I was traveling quite a bit with corporate America, and I'd just gotten my master's degree. And so the church welcomed me to start a new church for them.

[37:13] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[37:14] Speaker 10: Uh, so I left corporate America so I could be a- at home more with the kids, and I did that for 10 years, launched a church, and then after 10 years doing that, I've been back in corporate America for the last 10 years. So it's been in and out and up and down.

[37:29] Speaker 2: Boy, I tell you, but we also-

[37:30] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[37:30] Speaker 2: ... have to mention, those four children that you adopted, um, are, are four African American kids, and you were living in the Deep South. White dad. I assume your, w- was your wife, um, Caucasian?

[37:47] Speaker 10: Yeah. So my wife and I, uh, uh, you know, we're both white. We couldn't have children of our own.

[37:51] Speaker 2: Okay.

[37:51] Speaker 10: And the, the kids were friends of the family. We were watching the kids when their grandma, who was their caretaker, went in for chemo.

[38:00] Speaker 2: Oh.

[38:00] Speaker 10: And, uh, and we, so we'd watch them on the weekend. And then grandma ended up passing away from the cancer.

[38:06] Speaker 2: Oh.

[38:06] Speaker 10: And so we took them in as foster kids, and they tried to reunite the kids with their parents and it just didn't work out. And so they became wards of the state and we ended up adopting the four of them.

[38:17] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[38:17] Speaker 10: And the process, that whole process probably took three years, uh, of, of different, uh, hearings and things like that. And, uh, but they're all grown up now, and that was quite an experience. It was quite an-

[38:29] Speaker 2: I was gonna-

[38:29] Speaker 10: ... interesting experience-

[38:30] Speaker 2: I mean, in the Deep South?

[38:31] Speaker 10: ... you know, seeing, seeing life that way.

[38:32] Speaker 2: You know, though-

[38:33] Speaker 10: Well, no, I don't... Yeah, I'm not in the Deep South, I'm sorry. Definitely in conservative America, but I am not in the Deep South. (laughs)

[38:39] Speaker 2: Oh, okay. No, but were you then there in the Deep South, or no?

[38:44] Speaker 10: No, I've been in Michigan my whole life and-

[38:45] Speaker 2: Oh, Michigan. Okay.

[38:46] Speaker 10: ... the, the kids were ... Yeah, the kids were actually part of the school system that my wife is a principal in.

[38:51] Speaker 2: Oh. Oh, okay. Okay, so it's not Deep South (laughs) 'Cause I was gonna say-

[38:56] Speaker 10: No, no. (laughs)

[38:56] Speaker 2: ... "Oh, my gosh." Um, but, but still, um, um, mom- mom-

[39:00] Speaker 10: You know, the thing is, I, I, I've received a lot of, uh, a lot of, uh, when people don't know I have Black children-

[39:07] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[39:07] Speaker 10: ... I have received a lot of, uh, negative Black, uh, comments, stereotypical comments in corporate America.

[39:14] Speaker 2: Really?

[39:14] Speaker 10: I work... You know, my, my, my, my, uh, hobby is, I, I work at a farm. I, I, I run a beef operation here out of my house, and there is a lo- what you s- it's amazing the degree of, uh, negative racial bias and prejudice there is out there, even, you know, coming at me, and-

[39:33] Speaker 2: Still today?

[39:34] Speaker 10: ... it's only because people don't know. Absolutely.

[39:35] Speaker 2: Even today? Yeah? Oh my gosh.

[39:38] Speaker 10: Absolutely. No question about it.

[39:39] Speaker 2: Oh.

[39:40] Speaker 10: Um, just, uh, boy, just a couple, three weeks ago, a fellow sent me a, a video, uh, where a toddler was trying to convince their mother that the person who s- broke into the house and stole some cupcakes, uh, and the toddler's mother was saying, "Well, why would the robber come in and steal just cupcakes? Why wouldn't they take my purse or the valuables and things like that?" And the toddler, you know, a young toddler, uh, said, "He was a Black man."

[40:12] Speaker 2: Oh, boy.

[40:13] Speaker 10: That was two weeks ago, you know.

[40:15] Speaker 2: Oh, boy.

[40:15] Speaker 10: And so we still, in parts of our, uh, country, still see Black as being bad. And that's definitely the s- the, the, the, the, you know, the life that my kids grew up in.

[40:29] Speaker 2: Amazing. So why would you write a book about shame?

[40:35] Speaker 10: Well, it's interesting because, uh, what I found, for me personally, especially after the adoption-

[40:40] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[40:41] Speaker 10: ... was that my life was quite dominated by narcissistic personality traits, and, uh, when you're adopting a sibling group like that and trying to survive, you can't survive as a narcissist, you know.

[40:56] Speaker 2: Wow.

[40:56] Speaker 10: You just can't survive.

[40:58] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[40:58] Speaker 10: And I was getting my doctoral dissertation at the time, and I did my, uh, uh, my dissertation on how narcissism has impacted the church and corporate America, and it turns out that people, a lot of people don't know this, but shame is actually the root of narcissism.

[41:18] Speaker 2: Really?

[41:19] Speaker 10: Yeah.

[41:20] Speaker 2: How, how ... Explain.

[41:23] Speaker 10: Well, most people think narcissism, when they say narcissism, they, they hear people who are, like, egomaniacs.

[41:29] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[41:29] Speaker 10: Right?

[41:29] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[41:29] Speaker 10: They're totally in love with themself. But for the most part, that's a facade, and it, it's generated by a deep self-hatred. And so, uh, a person's hatred, self-hatred is so deep that the only way they can survive it is to develop a fake persona, uh, a grandiose persona, somebody who's unstoppable, somebody who is, you know, and, and it's just a facade.

[41:57] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[41:57] Speaker 10: And actually, the deeper the self-hatred, a lot of times the more grandiose the narcissistic projection becomes. And so I realized if I was gonna be the dad I wanted to be, if I was gonna be the husband I wanted to be, if I was gonna be the pastor I wanted to be, if I was just gonna be a decent human being (laughs) -

[42:14] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[42:15] Speaker 10: ... I had to deal with these issues and the, and the root of the issue. See, a lot of people, they have issue, they have an issue and they go hack at it. I call it, like, they see the weed and they cut the weeds out, but they never get to the root, and so the weed keeps coming back.

[42:29] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[42:30] Speaker 10: And so, uh, for me, I had to get to the issue, the root of the issue, which was shame, and that's what I had to deal with.

[42:36] Speaker 2: Wow. That's a m- Okay, so how are the kids doing, by the way? You say they're grown up now. How, what are their ages?

[42:44] Speaker 10: Uh, they're in their 30s.

[42:45] Speaker 2: Oh, okay. So how are they doing?

[42:47] Speaker 10: They're, they're doing, they're quite... You know, it's actually they are a, a testament to their self-resilience. They're phenomenal and, um, uh, they... You know, when you, you, you hear statistics, and I hate using statistics on human beings, but when kids go through foster care, they've really only got about a 25% chance, you know, of making it in the world. It's really, really poor odds.

[43:10] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[43:11] Speaker 10: And, um, one of them has her master's degree, one of them has, uh, just graduated with his, um, associate's and is working in the DEI field for his company, and, uh, one of my, my daughters is going back and she's about a year away from getting her nursing degree, and so they're really doing fantastic.

[43:30] Speaker 2: Oh, I'm glad to hear that.

[43:31] Speaker 10: So-

[43:31] Speaker 2: I really am glad to hear that. But, you know, the word prejudice, it's still around. It... Everybody's, "Oh, we want to do away with it." You're never gonna be able to do away. There's always gonna be someone that will find something wrong with somebody for some reason. It's not only because, you know, Black and white, it's also, you know, a lot of religion, it's, it's, uh, philosophy, it's political. There's always something that somebody's gonna find fault with, don't you think?

[44:01] Speaker 10: Yeah. It's funny when I... I was taking one of my kids to therapy one time when they were younger and I... My, my son's therapist, it was my son, his, his therapist said these words to me. He said, "We all need somebody to hate."

[44:13] Speaker 2: Mmm.

[44:14] Speaker 10: And I thought, "You know, you know..." And what I discovered in my research is that too is driven by shame, is that when we find somebody that we can hate, that we can dislike for any reason, it actually helps us feel better about ourselves.

[44:29] Speaker 2: Isn't that sad?

[44:31] Speaker 10: It is. It really is. You know, gossip is driven by that. You know, if we can find two or three people who agree that we should hate that other person, then we feel even better about ourselves.

[44:41] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[44:42] Speaker 10: It's really a, a sad state of affairs. Absolutely.

[44:44] Speaker 2: It is pathetic, to be honest with you.

[44:47] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[44:48] Speaker 2: You know? Do they ever look in the mirror, you know, (laughs) and figure out maybe they're one of the people somebody hates?

[44:55] Speaker 10: (laughs) That's a really good question.

[44:57] Speaker 2: Yes.

[44:57] Speaker 10: A really good question.

[44:59] Speaker 2: Okay, so-

[44:59] Speaker 10: It's a challenge though, because, you know, to your point, prejudiced... I mean, we... Prejudging, you know, that's where pre- prejudice comes from.

[45:07] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[45:08] Speaker 10: Prejudging is, is almost an animalistic instinct. We do it for our own survival.

[45:12] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[45:13] Speaker 10: So it's really something we all do, we all... When something or somebody comes into view, we just instinctually wonder, "Are we safe?" But the question is-

[45:23] Speaker 2: But why do we need, why do we need to hurt other people in order to feel better? I, I, I never could understand that. I may not agree with you, uh, I, I may think you do something wrong, but I'm not gonna sit there and say, "I hate you because of that." Uh, there used to be a time when people could come together and discuss, "Let's talk about it. I'll give you my opinion, you'll give me your opinion, we can either agree on something or we can agree to disagree." But now, it's, it's a lot worse than that. It's like, talk about hate? Hoy. Uh, there's a lot of hate going on right now, and you can't... Hmm. You can't keep a coun- country healthy and happy and moving forward with, with that much hate. You just can't.

[46:12] Speaker 10: No, it is... You're right. I think one of the... Coming out of COVID especially, that's what really motivated me to hunker down and do more of this work because I think you're right. The, the sort of vitriol that's out there is really... We're, we're hurting ourselves-

[46:29] Speaker 2: Yes.

[46:29] Speaker 10: ... when we do that too. We're hurting, you know, our own ability to, to learn from each other.

[46:35] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[46:35] Speaker 10: Um, and you know what? Without some sort of humility and ability to listen and hear each other, we can never grow ourselves.

[46:43] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[46:44] Speaker 10: Especially listening to people who have diverse opinions of us, you know?

[46:48] Speaker 2: Exactly.

[46:49] Speaker 10: And-

[46:50] Speaker 2: Well, you know, they, they always say, "Well, we can compromise." Well, don't you understand what compromise is? Nobody is happy, you know? (laughs)

[46:58] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[46:58] Speaker 2: That's what compromise is. "I'll give you this and I have to give up that. Yeah, well, okay, we'll, we'll work it out." So, it, it... No one's gonna be totally happy, but you know what? You'll at least be at peace, I think.

[47:12] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[47:13] Speaker 2: I don't know.

[47:13] Speaker 10: Well, I think before you can get to compromise, you simply have to listen.

[47:17] Speaker 2: Oh.

[47:17] Speaker 10: You have to get to a point where we can just listen.

[47:20] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[47:20] Speaker 10: You know? And I think we're not even there yet.

[47:23] Speaker 2: No.

[47:23] Speaker 10: And-

[47:23] Speaker 2: Not even close. (laughs)

[47:24] Speaker 10: A lot of times, we get so defensive, you know what I'm saying? And we begin prejudice, we prejudicially think we know ahead of time what somebody's gonna say. We think we know where they're coming from and we prejudge a person's actions and thoughts and everything else, uh, just almost to get ready for the battle, you know?

[47:45] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[47:45] Speaker 10: That we think might be in front of us.

[47:47] Speaker 2: You know what gets me, Rick? Is that, um, good friend, Rush Limbaugh, who was on the air, he's passed on now, um, he also say, used to say, "People are like sheeple. And if you tell them to jump off, you know, the, the precipice, they'll jump. That's how they follow you." Well, whatever happened to, "You think for yourself?" Um, I mean, I'll be honest, and I've said this on the air 'cause all, all my listeners know. I'm an Independent. I am not a Republican, I am not a Democrat. I look at the person, I look at the issues, and I make my decisions, and I've voted for both sides (laughs) 'cause they're, you know... I find good people and bad people in, on many sides. But it just drives me crazy that you cannot think for yourself. It... I know it's easier to follow because, and this is my opinion, I'm gonna get your read on this. I think people sometimes follow blindly because it's... Number one, it's easier, because somebody tells you what to do, how to do, and when to do.

[48:50] Speaker 2: And if it doesn't work out, you have somebody to blame.... because, well, so-and-so told me, or, you know, the, the pastor told me this, or the politician told me that, instead of taking responsibility for that decision, whether you agree or disagree. That's harder, because you don't have anybody to blame. You've gotta look for that responsibility and say, "I made that decision. It may be right or it may be wrong, but it's my decision." Don't you agree?

[49:20] Speaker 10: I certainly think you could have written my book for me, Mary Kay.

[49:22] Speaker 2: Oh, okay. (laughs)

[49:23] Speaker 10: I think... (laughs) No, I, I think you're spot on. I think yeah, the whole idea of, uh, refusing to think does make us responsible for our own actions.

[49:34] Speaker 2: Yes.

[49:34] Speaker 10: And we're afraid of that. We're afraid of failure. We fear failure, making wrong choices, and a big part of it, I think, is exactly what you said. If we make the choice ourselves, if we've thought about it, if we've... and we're wrong, there's nobody to blame.

[49:48] Speaker 2: Exactly.

[49:49] Speaker 10: And for ce- and, and because of... You know, my argument is that because of shame lurking inside of us, we desperately need to have somebody to blame-

[49:58] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[49:58] Speaker 10: ... for all the stuff going wrong in our lives.

[50:00] Speaker 2: Yeah. And, you know, nothing is ever perfect. That's the other thing too. "Well, it's gonna be perfect if we follow somebody and what they say." No. Uh, I don't know anything in the-

[50:12] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[50:12] Speaker 2: ... history of human beings that has ever been perf- Well, maybe one. (laughs) And look what happened to him. Um...

[50:21] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[50:22] Speaker 2: Uh, but it... Don't you agree? I mean, nothing is perfect. Nothing is perfect. And so what? You know, it makes for a, a, a more en- not enjoyable, but a, a livable and acceptable life. Because I- it would be boring if everything was perfect.

[50:42] Speaker 10: You know, the greatest, uh, shame researcher of all time, Brené Brown, wrote a book on that, The Gift of Im- The Gift of Imperfection.

[50:51] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[50:52] Speaker 10: And truly, she embraced that very idea, that one of the things that you do when you do battle with shame is you embrace imperfection.

[51:02] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

[51:04] Speaker 10: You, you embrace the reality. And I think there's even a culture now where, um, the culture says, uh, for example, they will try and convince us that we are enough. And I would like to say, "No, we're not."

[51:17] Speaker 2: Uh-uh.

[51:17] Speaker 10: And that- but there's noth- but there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with not being enough. That's where the fallacy comes in, is that we think we have to pretend to be enough. You know?

[51:26] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[51:27] Speaker 10: And the fact of the matter is we're not enough. We need each other. We need to listen to each other. We need to be part of the same groups together. We need to... Because we're built for community and we're built to need each other. So, our imperfections are simply that. They are simply, uh, assets that we have to help each other.

[51:48] Speaker 2: And this life is a journey. Uh, you know, we constantly learn, we constantly change, we hopefully evolve. (laughs) You know? I'm not sure-

[51:59] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[51:59] Speaker 2: ... lately, but we hopefully evolve. But everybody goes, "Well, what's, what's the final thing?" You're gonna die. That's g- That's the, that's the most final thing that you're gonna find in your life. We live and we die. But, you know, do, do what you can in the journey, the best that you can, and keep learning and keep evolving. Um, to me, uh, I said, you know, death is, is not the end. Death is just walking over to the other side, or passing over, however you see it. Uh, and then my heaven would be, uh-ha, my ah-ha moment. That's my heaven. I finally get it, you know?

[52:40] Speaker 2: (laughs) It's just-

[52:41] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[52:41] Speaker 2: I finally understand it all and it all makes sense, because right now, our lives don't make sense. It really doesn't. We think it does, and if we're successful and we have money and we have a lotta stuff, we think, "Oh, boy, you know, I, I get it now." No, you don't get it. (laughs) You can't. It's just, it's just a journey, and we gotta look beyond that. Don't you think?

[53:03] Speaker 10: It is a mystery. Yeah, I think, uh, I, I oftentimes use the phrase that life is like, uh, making cookies with God.

[53:12] Speaker 2: Yeah. (laughs)

[53:12] Speaker 10: And what I mean by that is, God doesn't... Y- you know, your parents call you into the kitchen to make cookies with them, but they don't need your help.

[53:21] Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't. (laughs)

[53:21] Speaker 10: In fact, they could make cook- They could make cookies faster without you.

[53:24] Speaker 2: Yeah. (laughs)

[53:24] Speaker 10: Would be less of a mess, less danger of somebody getting hurt, right?

[53:28] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[53:29] Speaker 10: But we're, we go into the kitchen to learn, to spend time with our parents, to have fun, and that's what life is like. We think we're out here just to make some cookies, you know?

[53:41] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[53:41] Speaker 10: And make 'em right and make 'em perfect, but it's not that.

[53:45] Speaker 2: No.

[53:45] Speaker 10: It's experiencing time with God, however you define that for yourself.

[53:50] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[53:51] Speaker 10: And it's learning, it's growing, and it's becoming, right? And we do that simply by doing things like, you know, spending time with our Creator, learning and growing and becoming what our Creator set up for us.

[54:04] Speaker 2: Yeah. And I've, I've argued on the air with, with atheists, and I, and I know you said you were at one time. (laughs)

[54:12] Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[54:12] Speaker 2: Um, yeah. But... And, and I always said, "Well, now, wait a minute." 'Cause they always say, "Well, the only reason you believe that there's something after, that is- is faith." I said, "Okay. Well, well, I'll accept that, but let me ask you a question." And these are researchers. Some of them are researchers. Some of them are, uh, in, in the religion, in religions, and that's the other thing. We've fought so much on religion, it's unreal.

[54:34] Speaker 10: Oh, yeah.

[54:35] Speaker 2: Um, but I say, "Let me ask you this. What are we made of?" And they say, "Well, energy. We are energy." And I said, "Now, give me the definition of energy." And they say, "Well, it can change forms, but it never, it never goes away. Energy doesn't die, it just changes forms." And I say, "Oh, okay. I agree with that. Now, let's go back to when I was a little girl in parochial school and my catechism is in my hand, and I remember the definition of God was always was, always will be, cannot be created or destroyed. Now, isn't that the definition of energy?"So, that means, uh, every, every living thing goes on but in a different form. That's all. What do you think?

[55:22] Speaker 10: Yeah. You know, I, actually I used to call myself a born again Evangelical Atheist.

[55:28] Speaker 2: Oh, whoa. (laughs) Man, that's-

[55:29] Speaker 10: Yeah. Because I had a religious conversion away from God and I wanted to evangelize people to the truth-

[55:39] Speaker 2: Oh.

[55:40] Speaker 10: ... of God.

[55:41] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[55:41] Speaker 10: And, um, but when I, and then when I actually went back to educate myself and got my master's and doctoral degrees in ministry, what I actually ... And I'm a science-based guy, right?

[55:53] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[55:53] Speaker 10: And it was very, very dif- You were never gonna prove to me the existence of God. And I went back to try and, um, I said to myself, "You know, Rick, you spent four, five years learning how to make paper." I'm a paper engineering person.

[56:09] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[56:09] Speaker 10: You ought to spend at least that much time deciding if there's a God, you know? And so I did. I studied and I researched, and I have come out the other side, and I think there's actually more empirical proof that God exists than that God doesn't.

[56:23] Speaker 2: Yes. And we are part of that.

[56:25] Speaker 10: We are part of that, no question.

[56:26] Speaker 2: We are part of-

[56:27] Speaker 10: In my mind.

[56:28] Speaker 2: ... you know. And, and if you wanna look at the universal look of, of what is, um, whether you bel- 'Cause I've, I've spoken to so many people who had near death experiences, et cetera, over the years 'cause I've been doing this for, like, almost five decades now. And, you know, it's either, uh, they go through a, um, a tunnel or they see the light or they see God or family. Does it make any difference what you see as long as there's something?

[56:58] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[56:58] Speaker 2: Don't you think? Seriously?

[57:00] Speaker 10: Yeah, I do.

[57:01] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[57:01] Speaker 10: Yep.

[57:01] Speaker 2: It's amazing. Now, do you have a website, by the way?

[57:05] Speaker 10: I do. It's rickpattersonconnects-

[57:07] Speaker 2: Okay.

[57:08] Speaker 10: ... .com.

[57:09] Speaker 2: And that's Patterson with an O? Patterson?

[57:12] Speaker 10: Yes.

[57:13] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[57:13] Speaker 10: P-A-T-T-E-R-S-O-N. Rickpattersonconnects.com.

[57:17] Speaker 2: Okay. And your book, uh, Shame Unmasked, uh, I assume is available every place?

[57:23] Speaker 10: It is on Amazon, yep, is, is the place where people can get it.

[57:27] Speaker 2: Great.

[57:27] Speaker 10: And my upcoming book, uh, called The Matthew Challenge is probably, uh, 30, 60 days away. And in that book I, I really go after some of the stuff you've been talking about today, how religion has changed and how it's become, uh, a vessel of hatred and, um-

[57:43] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[57:44] Speaker 10: And I try to align the person of Jesus, regardless of whether you're Christian or not, doesn't matter to me, um, and, and what he actually taught and said compared to what's being said about him in the world today.

[57:57] Speaker 2: Yes.

[57:57] Speaker 10: And, uh-

[57:58] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[57:59] Speaker 10: So yeah. It's a pretty hot topic right now, you know? And, and Jesus is in the middle of it, you know?

[58:03] Speaker 2: Yeah. (laughs)

[58:04] Speaker 10: (laughs)

[58:04] Speaker 11: (instrumental music)

[58:05] Speaker 2: Well, he's always been.

[58:06] Speaker 10: Yeah.

[58:06] Speaker 2: You know? (laughs)

[58:08] Speaker 10: Yeah. That's true. (laughs)

[58:08] Speaker 2: Even when he was alive, he was in the middle of it, so it's like-

[58:10] Speaker 10: Yeah, well that's true. That's true. Yep.

[58:13] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[58:13] Speaker 10: Yeah. He was a crucible of hatred, wasn't he? (laughs)

[58:16] Speaker 2: But yeah, it's just ... Isn't that amazing how ... But also how hate can bring people together too.

[58:24] Speaker 10: It really can. And you see that in, in, you know, in congregational life, you know?

[58:30] Speaker 2: Yes.

[58:30] Speaker 10: I think that what we see, um, towards the, uh, transgender community, for example, um, how we can ... We sorting, we sort of coalesce-

[58:40] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[58:40] Speaker 10: ... around a dislike for people. And, but, you know, it was happening in Jesus' day. It's been happening since the dawn of time.

[58:45] Speaker 2: Yep.

[58:46] Speaker 10: We find people to hate, you know?

[58:47] Speaker 2: Yep. Absolutely. Well, I wanna thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. Keep up the good work, and let me know when your new book comes out. I'll have you come back and we'll talk.

[58:57] Speaker 10: Well, I will do that. Thank you for your time. Thank you for being with me on. Appreciate it.

[59:01] Speaker 2: Absolutely. Take care, folks. In the meantime, as I always say, live simply, laugh often, love deeply, and above all else, you dare to dream. But I'm gonna leave you with this saying because I think it, it, it really fits what we're doing about now. It says, "Believe you can and you're halfway there." And you'll never guess who said that. Teddy Roosevelt. (laughs) So even he had, uh, all kinds of ambitions and, and perhaps a little bit of shame there too. In the meantime, you stay well. Talk with you next time right here on Pop Talk.

[59:34] Speaker 11: (instrumental music)