Popp Star Talk, November 19, 2025
Popp Star Talk with Mary Jane Popp
Ep10, Michael Learned, American actress, known for her role as Olivia Walton in the long-running CBS drama series The Waltons
Beyond the Walton House: An Intimate Conversation with Michael Learned
This episode of Pop Star Talk features an extensive interview with Michael Learned, the iconic matriarch of the television classic The Waltons. Host Mary Jane Pop explores Learned's personal journey from "rock bottom" to stardom, her unconventional childhood, and her enduring perspectives on aging and advocacy.
The Walton Legacy and Personal Resilience
Michael Learned is best known for her role as Olivia Walton, a character that defined the American mother figure for a generation during the show's run from 1971 to 1982. However, Learned reveals that her casting came at a time of profound personal crisis. She describes reaching "rock bottom" during a divorce from her first husband, whom she married at 17, while struggling with financial instability and alcohol as a coping mechanism for depression. She credits a woman named Mrs. Blair for helping her survive this period, describing the role in The Waltons as a spiritual "gift" that arrived when she was a "wreck".
The Waltons: Cultural Impact
A series that bridged generations by addressing universal family struggles.
Learned's time on the show was not without professional friction. Initially, she felt her character was relegated to the background, often "just ironing," and she eventually demanded more substantial lines to showcase her acting range. Her producer notes that she even left the show at one point because she disagreed with the direction of the themes. Despite these challenges, she remains deeply connected to the show's legacy, noting that the issues faced by the Walton family—such as raising children through hardship—remain relevant to modern audiences.
Career Pivots and the "Michael" Mystery
Learned’s path to acting was accidental. As a child attending a boarding school in England during the early 1950s, she lived in a "Dickensian" environment characterized by post-war rations and intense homesickness. She originally aspired to be a ballet dancer, but a teacher bluntly told her she wasn't talented enough for dance and suggested acting instead. This pivot proved successful when she unexpectedly won the school’s drama cup. Her unique name, "Michael," often caused confusion in the industry, with some casting agents expecting a man to walk through the door, though she believes the name ultimately helped her stand out.
Michael Learned: Personal Philosophy
- 🌱 Growth through Pain: Believes emotional pain is often a necessary catalyst for personal development.
- 🎭 Constructive Anger: Views anger as a positive force if recognized and used to help others.
- 📚 Literature over Media: Prefers escaping into novels like Zola’s Nana rather than watching television.
Advocacy and Modern Life
Beyond The Waltons, Learned has been a staunch advocate for abused and orphaned children, a passion reflected in her film work like Crossroads. She shares poignant stories of taking children into her own home who had suffered extreme abuse, emphasizing that the cycle of neglect is a tragedy that continues today. Now in her late 70s, Learned maintains a "youthful spirit" through a Mediterranean diet and a love for reading, though she admits the COVID-19 pandemic disrupted her long-time habit of taking jazz dance classes.
Key Data
- The Waltons Era: Aired from 1971 to 1982.
- Film Debut: Touched By Love (1980).
- Other Notable Credits: Power (1986), Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story (1993).
- Current Age: 78 at the time of the recording.
To-Do / Next Steps
- Mary Jane Pop will call Michael Learned to get an update on her current activities for the new year.
- Kenneth Segura Noll and Mary Jane Pop plan to visit the Walton Museum on their next trip back east.
Conclusion
The interview paints a portrait of a woman far more complex and vulnerable than her "Number One Mom" persona suggested. Michael Learned’s story is one of transformation—turning childhood sadness and mid-life "rock bottom" into a career defined by empathy, advocacy, and a refusal to succumb to the traditional expectations of retirement.
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00:00
Speaker 1
(jazzy music plays) Let's remember together some of the greatest TV and movie stars of yesteryear with the woman who knew them. Mary Jane Pop hosted radio and TV shows for nearly five decades, meeting these stars and getting them to share their real-life stories. You'll meet them up close and personal as Mary Jane searches her extensive archives for the best and brightest real star talk on Pop Star Talk. And here she is, Mary Jane Pop.
00:34
Speaker 2
Here we go once again on Pop Star Talk with another celebrity from times gone by. They only come once in a lifetime, and I, Mary Jane Pop, am so happy that I archived so many of them to share with you. And I also enjoy the input of my producer, Kenneth Segura Noll. He remembers with great insight and memories from those times gone by, too. Now, this week, we're gonna go back to the '70s with a TV series that brought families and friends together to visit with The Waltons. It was a show that, uh, gathered all ages to find out what was happening to this iconic family and how they shared their lives with us. Now, I'm sure, Ken, it's always lovely talking to you because I know you got some great comments that this series that ran from 1971 to 1982, perhaps even still in reruns as far as I know, and it's still showing today. And a lot of the issues that they covered back then, they're still covering as families today.
01:41
Speaker 3
Yes, it is. It, it's a wonderful show. That famous theme and the famous closing, "Goodnight, John-Boy."
01:48
Speaker 2
Yep. (laughs)
01:49
Speaker 3
(laughs)
01:49
Speaker 2
Yeah, we talked to Richard Thomas about that.
01:52
Speaker 3
That's right.
01:52
Speaker 2
And he's still known for that. You know, the people who did that program, people remember them. They really remember them, and love them. They got to... They got to know the family and, and the ins and outs that they had to go through in raising kids, and a lot of kids (laughs) , by the way, on The Waltons. But it, it's just interesting that family is family. It doesn't make any difference, right?
02:17
Speaker 3
Yes. Yes. But, you know, uh, she was, uh, her own woman because at one point, if I recall, uh, she left The Walton show because she didn't agree with the way the show was going as far as themes.
02:30
Speaker 2
Well, and she was, you know... Michael Learned was basically the number one mom in the country at the time. But some of the things you'll hear in the interview is that the first few years were kind of difficult for her because she was just basically ironing in the background. (laughs) And she'll talk more about that. Until she just finally said, "Hey, look, you know, I'm a good actress," and she always has been. A- and so, "I need to have more. I need to have some lines. I need to be a part of this." And, and they did change it for her. Uh, she was actually born in Washington, DC, and kind of an interesting background. Her father, Bruce Learned, uh, was a diplomat and her maternal grandfather also worked for the United States Foreign Service at the US State Department. And she has five younger sisters, and that her parents never explained to her why they named her Michael.
03:32
Speaker 2
(laughs) All they said is that if they had another child, boy child, it, he would have been named Caleb, but that was it. She was a girl and she was... and she kept the name, Michael Learned. But, you know, maybe that was a good idea because she stood out because of that name, too, don't you think?
03:48
Speaker 3
Well, I'm sure it opened a few doors.
03:50
Speaker 2
Yeah.
03:50
Speaker 3
And then she walked in and they said, "Wait a minute." (laughs)
03:55
Speaker 2
Yeah. (laughs) "Hey, hey, how come you got a name like Michael? You're not a, you're not a guy."
03:58
Speaker 3
"Uh, excuse me, we're waiting for Michael."
04:01
Speaker 2
Oh, yes. (laughs) Maybe, maybe they thought she was the secretary to bring in Michael-
04:06
Speaker 3
Right, exactly.
04:07
Speaker 2
... or something like that. She actually made her big screen debut in 1980. She played the supporting role in the, the, uh, dramatic film, I've not seen it, called Touched By Love. And then she later appeared in several other movies. Power in 1986, Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story in 1993. She was actually in that, too. But everybody still remembers her from, you know, being the mom, Michael Learned, on The Waltons. A- and that, and that's not a bad thing. And it's interesting because she's still going strong, by the way. I talked with her in this interview last year.
04:48
Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
04:49
Speaker 2
And so I'm gonna have to give her a call to see if she's doing anything more this year and kind of give you an update on that. But as far as I know, she's still kind of retired or semi-retired, and I don't think she likes it, but you'll hear some of that in the interview. So, let's listen to one of our favorite TV moms, Michael Learned, from the classic TV series The Waltons and its memorable theme.
05:18
Speaker 4
(The Waltons theme music plays)
05:23
Speaker 2
Well, that theme is so... It brings back so many memories. It really does. That's the theme from television classic The Waltons, and it's so recognizable, and so is TV's most admired mom, all the way to movie grandma of one of America's most malicious murderers. She's still going strong in a true story of adoptive motherhood. Uh, she's an icon. She never stops. It's, of course, Michael Learned. And what keeps her going? Well, (laughs) we gotta find out. Michael, what a pleasure to have you with us on Pop Talk. Thank you so much. I, I, I'm happy to visit with you Absolutely. You know what?
06:06
Speaker 2
You're an inspiration
06:08
Speaker 5
... because a lot of people, you know, they go to a certain time and they go, "Oh, that's time to retire, doh." I don't understand. D- what is retirement? I, I don't get it. Do you?
06:18
Speaker 6
No. I don't. I'm with you.
06:20
Speaker 5
Ugh.
06:20
Speaker 6
I mean, you know, I've had a wonderful life. My, uh, my kids. I always had about ... at least five kids around.
06:28
Speaker 5
(laughs)
06:29
Speaker 6
Three of my own, and usually one or two others. And, um, you know, and working as well. And I can't ... uh, you know, busy life. And now I, I sit around and wonder, "What am I gonna do with today? There's nothing on the calendar."
06:42
Speaker 5
Oh, d-... Not?
06:43
Speaker 6
So, I eat chocolate, is what I do.
06:45
Speaker 5
Oh. (laughs)
06:46
Speaker 6
But I just read that Sophia Regaria does as well, so that made me feel better.
06:51
Speaker 5
Oh, you're o-... you're a-
06:53
Speaker 6
(laughs)
06:53
Speaker 5
... kick. Okay. The Waltons, uh, I just wanna get, uh, something from you as far as w- what you think-
06:59
Speaker 6
I'm gonna try to do... Like, I'm having trouble, I'm having trouble hearing you. Can you-
07:04
Speaker 5
I'll pump it up a little bit. How's- how's that?
07:06
Speaker 6
Can you hear me all right?
07:06
Speaker 5
Yeah, I can hear you just fine. How about that?
07:08
Speaker 6
Oh, good. Okay.
07:08
Speaker 5
That better?
07:10
Speaker 6
A little bit. Yes. Thanks.
07:11
Speaker 5
Oh, oh, okay. Good. Now, The Waltons, it continues to make a difference today, even though it was back, what, 1971 to '82 was the, the series.
07:21
Speaker 6
Mm-hmm.
07:22
Speaker 5
But you, you said when you were cast as Olivia, you had hit rock bottom. What kind of rock bottom? What ha- what happened?
07:31
Speaker 6
Well, I was going through a divorce, uh, from, um, my kids' dad, whom I married at 17. And, um, you know, he, he was a big part... W-... You know, the years are longer when you're young than they are when you're older, unfortunately. So it seemed... It was a good chunk of my life-
07:51
Speaker 5
Uh-huh.
07:51
Speaker 6
... that I spent with him, and I loved him. But, um... So I was going through that, and, uh, I was drinking too much.
08:00
Speaker 5
Uh-oh.
08:00
Speaker 6
Um, instead of finding a healthier way to deal with loss. And, um, I was kinda rock bottom. I had no money, I had three kids, uh, that I was trying to take care of. And, um, if it hadn't been for a wonderful woman named Mrs. Blair who worked for me, I, I don't know if I would have gotten through it. She was, she was my rock, really.
08:22
Speaker 5
No kidding.
08:23
Speaker 6
And, uh, and then The Waltons happened, and, um, it was like a gift. I s-... If I ever write a book, it'll say, "His hand was on my shoulder," because, um, I was a wreck at the time.
08:37
Speaker 5
Oh, for heaven's sake. But you said you also went through kind of a spiritual journey? What, what did you mean by that?
08:45
Speaker 6
Um, well, I think, unfortunately... I was talking to my husband last night. I said, "Why does it always take pain for us to grow?"
08:53
Speaker 5
Uh, yeah. (laughs) You're right.
08:55
Speaker 6
Why can't we grow happy?
08:57
Speaker 5
Yeah.
08:57
Speaker 6
Well, I, I guess we can too, but, um, I was in a lot of emotional pain. I was a... I, I, I tend to be a depressive. I'm not anymore. Thank God for medication. But, um, you know, I, I was sa-... I was a sad child-
09:13
Speaker 5
Aw.
09:13
Speaker 6
... and, um, a very sad adult. Um, mostly I think because I was, I was angry and I didn't know it, so I turned that in on myself.
09:23
Speaker 5
Aw. How sad.
09:24
Speaker 6
I think anger can be a very wonderful thing if you can be in touch with it and use it constructively, you know, like the Jewish people did during World War II.
09:33
Speaker 5
Yeah.
09:33
Speaker 6
And, you know, these people suffered so greatly, and yet many of them just h- helped other Jews, you know?
09:41
Speaker 5
Mm-hmm.
09:42
Speaker 6
And created homes for the, the Holocaust victims and so on, you know? So, you can take anger and turn it around into something good, but you have to know you have it.
09:54
Speaker 5
Yeah. But you had the talent. I mean, you've done TV, film, theater, soap operas. What i-... What haven't you done? I mean, it's amazing.
10:05
Speaker 6
Well, um, I, I've never operated on anybody. (laughs)
10:09
Speaker 5
Oh, okay. (laughs) Thank heavens, huh? (laughs)
10:13
Speaker 6
(laughs)
10:13
Speaker 5
Uh, but-
10:14
Speaker 6
But it's been a... You know, I, I love my work. I wanted to be an actor ever since I was 12 years old.
10:22
Speaker 5
Aw.
10:23
Speaker 6
Um, I, I wanted to be a ballet dancer, first of all, in one of the, um... And I went to a boarding school in England, was terribly homesick the whole time I was there, but it was a wonderful school. Um, and one of the teachers pulled me aside and said, "You know, you're not a very good dancer. Why don't you think of becoming an actress?" So-
10:42
Speaker 5
(laughs) Gee.
10:44
Speaker 6
So, there was a special drama unit at the school and I became a special drama student. Yeah. It was.
10:50
Speaker 5
That's... Well, it was meant to be, wasn't it?
10:53
Speaker 6
I guess. I, I was initially, as I said, a ballet student, and my husband just, uh... uh, reminded me, and he said, "You won." And I... and it's true. I won the drama cup unexpectedly. Nobody expected me-
11:06
Speaker 5
Aw.
11:07
Speaker 6
... to win it. They had a... You know, j-... It was just a school competition. It wasn't-
11:11
Speaker 5
Yeah. That's-
11:12
Speaker 6
... anything big. It was just a little school competition. But for some reason, I won it, and that's when the teacher said, you know, "Perhaps you oughta consider doing this instead of being in ballet."
11:22
Speaker 5
(laughs) That... Did that... Did that hurt your feelings though? I mean, 'cause here's... You wanted to be a ballet dancer and they say, "No, no. Go be an actress." But you said you liked being an actress since you were 12 anyway.
11:35
Speaker 6
Well, I, I f-... I wanted to be a dancer, but I knew I... I mean, I was in a school where there were some really good kids that were beautiful dancers, and I was al-... I was overweight, 'cause I, I was so homesick that I ate a lot of bread and margarine. This was... You know, you have to remember, this is 1951 or '2.
11:56
Speaker 5
Yeah, yeah.
11:57
Speaker 6
And, um, they were on c-... on rations in, uh, England, so, um, we all ate too much. (laughs)
12:05
Speaker 5
Yeah. (laughs)
12:05
Speaker 6
We were all prepubescent or pubescent girls-
12:09
Speaker 5
Mm-hmm.
12:09
Speaker 6
... hormonal and crazy. And, um...You know, butter, we'd get one little pat of butter a day. It was kind of Dickensian, actually, and we had, we slept 10, 10, on 10 cots in a room.
12:23
Speaker 2
Oh, my.
12:24
Speaker 6
Um, and we all shared this one bathroom, we had to line up to go to the bathroom.
12:29
Speaker 2
Oh, oh.
12:29
Speaker 6
Yeah, so it was very (laughs) kind of wonderful in some ways, 'cause it was an old, uh, Rothschild mansion, so the grounds were exquisite, and, um, you know, really it was a w- I went back to visit as an adult, and I thought, "Why were you so unhappy here? It's absolutely a gorgeous school."
12:48
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah.
12:48
Speaker 6
And, uh, but I was, you know, you bring with you where you are in your own self, and, uh, I guess I was a sad child. Uh, you know, I was depressed-
12:59
Speaker 2
Mm.
12:59
Speaker 6
... and there was no reason for it. I had a wonderful life.
13:02
Speaker 2
Hmm.
13:03
Speaker 6
But, um...
13:04
Speaker 2
Well, you're still having a wonderful life. (instrumental music) Yeah, and what a wonderful life she did have. Isn't that amazing? And it's, it's funny that she mentioned that she wanted to be a ballet dancer, and then one of her teachers said, "You, you're not very good at being a (laughs) ballet dancer. Maybe you should be an actress." And I thought, you know, it happens to all of us. Now, I don't know about you, Ken...
13:30
Speaker 3
It's happened to me more than once.
13:31
Speaker 2
Isn't that funny? It does. All of a sudden, that brought back a memory for me, because when I first started, I was a singer, an actress. I was doing musical comedy, I was doing club work, that type of thing, c- traveling across the country, and then someone dared me to audition for a television show, and I got it. And I turned out, after all these years, five decades interviewing people instead of me. It was, it was supposed to be they were gonna interview me, because (laughs) I was, I was singing and performing and all that. But no, it turned out, after all these years, I've been doing these interviews and loved every minute of it, because I learn so much about people and how people react to different aspects of a life. And, you know, we, and sometimes I learn lessons from these people, and what they went through, that made my life a little bit better or easier. Don't you think?
14:28
Speaker 3
Oh, exactly.
14:29
Speaker 2
(instrumental music) Hang in there with us 'cause we got more to come.
14:34
Speaker 7
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18:34
Speaker 10
It's Pop Talk, and you know we do talk.
18:39
Speaker 3
It's interesting that in the television show, she comes across so strong as, as the mother and, and there's a lot, a lot of vulnerability to her, based on these interviews-
18:50
Speaker 10
Mm-hmm.
18:51
Speaker 3
... you, you hear.
18:52
Speaker 10
She hit rock bottom.
18:53
Speaker 3
Yeah.
18:53
Speaker 10
I mean, she admitted that she became, you know, was drinking too much. I mean, how do I say this? I love it that they shared all these things with me.
19:02
Speaker 3
Right.
19:02
Speaker 10
You know?
19:02
Speaker 3
Exactly. And that's why we brought them back. (laughs)
19:05
Speaker 10
Yeah. (laughs) And it's not like I wanted them to share it with me, I just wanted them to be a part of my life.
19:14
Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
19:14
Speaker 10
And me to be a part of their life. And, and part of that is sharing some intimate secrets that they didn't really ever talk about.
19:23
Speaker 3
Right.
19:23
Speaker 10
And sometimes I think they never had anybody that would listen to what they had to say.
19:28
Speaker 3
You know, and, and, and you know this, in production, it's so chaotic. You don't have time to hear people's problems.
19:35
Speaker 10
No.
19:36
Speaker 3
I, I hate to say it-
19:37
Speaker 10
It's true.
19:38
Speaker 3
... uh, but you know, you just wanna get the production done, and let's, you know, we'll talk about it later. And then we go, we all go our own way (laughs) after that.
19:47
Speaker 10
Absolutely.
19:48
Speaker 3
Did you know there's a Walton Museum?
19:50
Speaker 10
No. Where is it?
19:51
Speaker 3
Back east. I just, I looked it up. I had read about it, and I said, you know, we, I just, uh, I was at the Grand Ole Opry and, uh, thinking, "Hey, there's another museum we can stop on on our way from here to there," you know? (laughs)
20:05
Speaker 10
Great. That's, that's interesting. Well, you know, it, it was such an iconic show.
20:11
Speaker 3
Right.
20:11
Speaker 10
People would gather from, you know, the whole neighborhood would get together with family and friends. It wasn't just one person watching the show.
20:21
Speaker 3
Right.
20:21
Speaker 10
And I think it's because so many of the issues they had, we had.
20:25
Speaker 3
Right.
20:26
Speaker 10
And maybe some of the answers that they found helped us.
20:30
Speaker 3
Right. And there wa- it was, there was a real John-Boy.
20:33
Speaker 10
Oh, really?
20:34
Speaker 3
It was the creator of the show. It was based on his life. So, you know, it was real, real family drama.
20:40
Speaker 10
Yeah.
20:40
Speaker 3
'Cause he's, he's just talking about, he's recreating the drama of his family, and the characters, and you know, but if you have a family with seven kids or five kids, it's very interesting. (laughs)
20:51
Speaker 10
Oh, yeah. (laughs)
20:52
Speaker 3
Not that I've been a part of the family, but my, just dealing with two grandkids, and I can't imagine five kids, or-
20:59
Speaker 10
Yeah. Or six.
21:01
Speaker 3
I had an uncle that had eight kids, you know.
21:03
Speaker 10
Oh.
21:03
Speaker 3
Four girls, and lots of big families in our family.
21:06
Speaker 10
How do you even remember all the names? (laughs) I, I could, I would probably forget some of the names here and there. (laughs) But I'm sure when you, you got these kids growing up, you remember their names and everything, but-
21:18
Speaker 3
Yeah, uh-
21:18
Speaker 10
... you, you kinda wonder.
21:19
Speaker 3
Not true. Not true. I got three, and I call them each other names, their other names.
21:25
Speaker 10
Oh, okay. (laughs)
21:26
Speaker 3
And, and, and it really bro- it really bro- bothers the boys when I call them the girls' names.
21:31
Speaker 10
Oh, okay.
21:33
Speaker 3
You know?
21:33
Speaker 10
I bet. (laughs) Oh, I can understand that. But, you know, there is so much more about Michael Learned and her life, and her work with other celebrities.
21:42
Speaker 3
I'm curious how she got the name, or why, but, uh, that's her real name, it's her birth name.
21:48
Speaker 10
Well, let's check out a little bit more about Michael Learned and what she has to say. (instrumental music plays) Let's talk a little bit about Crossroads, 'cause you're working with Pat Boone, another icon from- Mm-hmm
21:59
Speaker 3
... that era. Um, tell, w- what is it, it's about, uh, adopting children?
22:05
Speaker 10
Well, it's about, uh, a family, um, a woman, God, I haven't thought about this in a while. Uh, a woman who had, um, muscular dystrophy, I think. Yeah, uh Anyway, she's in a wheelchair, and this couple is very religious, and wonderful couple. I actually spoke to her, and she was, uh, so full of life and humor, and it was a lovely conversation from two of us. We didn't know each other at all, but I felt like I had made a friend after we hung up Aw And they adopted all these kids, uh, uh, different nationalities, and, you know, a child in need, and they took them in. And it, it's about those people. It's a true story Oh, no They're still alive No kidding. And so Yeah ... and, and, but you took, uh, well, the, the movie, Crossroads, talks about the guardianship that you took over for those six Mitchell orphans, right Well, yeah, in a way.
23:05
Speaker 10
Um, some of them may, may have had families and were just abused children, and, you know, I, I, my k- I took in a couple of kids that, uh, were having very difficult home lives, and, um, you know, I, these kids, some of th- one of them was, uh, he's passed away, um, but his name was Michael, and, um, his mother was, uh, uh, an ex-nun, and she used to burn him with cigarettes Oh my God So, you know, some of these kids just have... And they get passed around, you know? They're on the streets, and then somebody takes them in and abuses... You know, they're just tragic Mm-hmm And it's still going on Yeah So it's something I feel very strongly about.
23:51
Speaker 10
And it was hard on my own kids sometimes, you know, to bring a, uh, another kid into the house that, um, you know, sometimes I, I, I had problems with my own children being, saying, you know, "We don't get to see enough of you- (laughs "... and you're, we're sharing you with somebody, somebody else." So Yeah ... um .. But, you know, it, I, I, uh, so admire... You look great, by the way. You really do For an old, (laughs) for an old bag.
24:19
Speaker 10
(laughs Hey, wait a minute. I'm right behind you Where I'm serious. I'm 78 in, in Au- in August Oh, okay. Well, my husband is 78, I think. Yeah See And he looks pretty good Yo-y-oey, hey, it's.. (laughs ... the whole idea is that, hey, we keep going, no matter what. (laughs Yeah, we do. And I think as long as we do, we somehow maintain a youthful spirit, you know You... Oh, gosh, yes. So, wh- do you And I've had a little help here and there, don't forget. I live in LA Well, yeah, well.. (laughs I, I would expect that I know (laughs) Now, but d- uh, do you exercise? Do you diet? Supplements?
24:54
Speaker 10
What do you do to stay s- stay young
24:58
Speaker 6
I don't do a damn thing. I've always eaten well.
25:00
Speaker 5
(laughs)
25:00
Speaker 6
My mother raised us on a Mediterranean diet. Um, but lately, I've, I've really succumbed to chocolate and laziness. So, um-
25:11
Speaker 5
Oh.
25:11
Speaker 6
... I'm not very proud of myself.
25:13
Speaker 5
You're entitled.
25:13
Speaker 6
I'm still in my pajamas and I'm talking to you at 2:42 in the afternoon. That doesn't happen very often, but occasionally.
25:20
Speaker 5
(laughs)
25:20
Speaker 6
My cat seduces me by sitting on my lap.
25:23
Speaker 5
(laughs)
25:24
Speaker 6
And she's there right now.
25:27
Speaker 5
But you're entitled to enjoy.
25:29
Speaker 6
I know.
25:30
Speaker 5
My gosh.
25:30
Speaker 6
Well, my husband never makes me feel guilty. I love him for that-
25:34
Speaker 5
Bless your heart.
25:34
Speaker 6
... among other things.
25:35
Speaker 5
Bless your heart. Do you do any exercise? I mean, do you walk or, you know, do anything like that?
25:40
Speaker 6
No. No. For, before, um, the, um... I'm blanking on the name of the, the disease that we've all been dealing. COVID. Before COVID-
25:51
Speaker 5
Oh, yeah, yeah.
25:52
Speaker 6
... um, I took dance lessons almost every day. I, I took jazz classes, which I loved.
25:58
Speaker 5
Huh.
25:59
Speaker 6
But of course, when the, uh, pandemic hit-
26:01
Speaker 5
Yeah.
26:02
Speaker 6
... and that's the word I was looking for-
26:03
Speaker 5
Yeah.
26:04
Speaker 6
... um, the classes were canceled.
26:07
Speaker 5
Oh.
26:07
Speaker 6
And, uh, they're slowly trying to get back to normal. But unfortunately, um, one of the teachers has retired and the other one is undergoing serious, um, health issues. So-
26:18
Speaker 5
Oh.
26:19
Speaker 6
... you know, it'll all come back eventually. And so, I, I don't even walk anymore. I don't know what... I've just given into being an old lady, I guess.
26:27
Speaker 5
You know what? You'll never be an old lady.
26:29
Speaker 6
(laughs)
26:29
Speaker 5
Trust me.
26:30
Speaker 6
At the moment, I'm feeling that, and, uh...
26:32
Speaker 5
Now, do you watch TV at all?
26:35
Speaker 6
Yeah. I love watching, uh, Netflix. And, uh, I don't think I watch many of the series. Some of the comedies I do.
26:42
Speaker 5
Like what?
26:42
Speaker 6
But mostly we, we watch... I watch what Jon watches-
26:46
Speaker 5
Aw.
26:46
Speaker 6
... mostly. I, I don't turn it on during the day. I like to read. I'm, I'm more of a reader.
26:51
Speaker 5
Oh, good.
26:52
Speaker 6
And, um-
26:52
Speaker 5
What kind, what kind of things do you read?
26:55
Speaker 6
Well, right now I'm reading Love In The Aethers. Um, I read novels. I read, um... I don't read... I read some biographies, but I don't... I read for pleasure. I don't... I, I read for escape. It's like most people watch television. I, I... As a child, my father wouldn't let us have TV in the house.
27:16
Speaker 5
Oh.
27:16
Speaker 6
So I read. He caught me once reading a true, true romance-
27:21
Speaker 5
(laughs)
27:21
Speaker 6
... uh, comic book that I had stolen from my friend's house-
27:26
Speaker 5
Uh-huh.
27:26
Speaker 6
... 'cause we weren't allowed to have comic books either. And he caught me reading it. I was hiding in a closet somewhere reading it, and he caught me and he snatched it outta my hand. He said, "If you-" I s- he said, "Why are you reading that?" And I said, "It's romantic."
27:39
Speaker 5
Oh. (laughs)
27:40
Speaker 6
And he said, "You want romance? Read this." And he handed me Emile Zola's Nana, and, um-
27:48
Speaker 5
Oh.
27:49
Speaker 6
And I loved it. So-
27:50
Speaker 5
Oh.
27:50
Speaker 6
... you know, he, his point was, if you want romance, read literature, don't read comics.
