Speaker Identification
Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld: Host of New Realities.
Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak: Guest; theologian, linguist, researcher, and co-author connected with The Keys of Enoch and related cosmological teachings.
Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak: Guest; spiritual researcher and co-presenter with Dr. J.J. Hurtak.
Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk: Guest; author of The Simulation Hypothesis and The Simulated Multiverse.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Welcome back to New Realities. I am Alan Steinfeld, and I am here with some of my favorite guests. They are theologians and spiritually aware people with organizations around the world delivering higher levels of knowledge.

What I want to talk about today is this whole idea of disclosure and what that has to do with religion and other beings. There was a major article discussing ministers who were gathering to consider how they might present the alien question to their congregations. There is a lot of controversy, and for some people this becomes a vexing question because they relate extraterrestrial presence to demons.

I do not think they are demons. I think people are trying to fit these beings into categories they already know. But this is something we do not know. I also have to say, before I ask Dr. J.J. and Dr. Desiree Hurtak, that religion has often been based on higher beings coming from the skies and giving people revelation. I think UFOs are different because we do not look up to them as gods, but the subject is related to the whole history of religion.

Dr. J.J. Hurtak, you are a theologian. How can we look at this new phenomenon with a new lens?

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
Thank you, Alan. Desiree and I have given papers at the Parliament of the World's Religions over the last few decades. My background is as a linguist and researcher into ancient Coptic Christian documents. In the Middle East, and in the Roman and Greek philosophical worlds, we see that actual statuary and symbolic representations were set aside for what some traditions would call star nations or visitors.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
One of the things I often say to people asking about extraterrestrials is that extraterrestrials are, in many ways, much like us. Some beings are very enlightened. We can think of Christ, Buddha, Moses, and those aligned with the divine. But there are also others who are still figuring out what to do with their lives. Then there may be a smaller percentage who are not positive. They are not very nice.

People sometimes identify several broad categories. Eric Davis recently referred to four categories, which are similar to categories we have talked about before: reptilians, insectoids, greys, and Nordics, the beings who look more like us. But Eric Davis is a physicist, not a theologian. If you look back at the history of religion, and at the religious scholar Mircea Eliade's work, you see that religions have long spoken of demigods or other orders of beings. So the picture is much bigger than what is being posed by recent news articles.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
More than two decades ago, Paul Davies and other physicists suggested that much of organized religion would be challenged, or might even collapse, in the context of extraterrestrial visitation. The question is whether people can expand their understanding rather than confine this phenomenon to categories that are too small.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
The problem I have with all this is that people are trying to put this new phenomenon, these new beings, into an old box. I do not think they are demons. My good friend Chris Bledsoe thinks they may be angelic. I think something else is happening. How do we talk to religious leaders and tell them not to go into fear, but to embrace the unknown and the amazing new possibilities?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
First and foremost, if people see extraterrestrials as being on the same level as we are, then they can realize that God, the angels, and even what some traditions call demons may be beyond that level. We are all in what might be called an experimental realm for soul evolution, and we are all using the same consciousness field. That means we have access to positive realities and divine realities, but also to negative thoughts and negative thinking. Extraterrestrials are also living within this kind of reality. In some traditions there are seven heavens, and we may only be talking about one or two lower levels.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Again, I think people are trying to fit a new phenomenon into old boxes. Religious scholar Jeffrey Kripal has said that you cannot make sense of the unknown by putting it into the known. There is something else happening that is not simply angels or demons. It may be a higher form, and they may be like us or may not be like us.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
I think they are like us in consciousness, but not necessarily like us in genetics or form. Some may not even be like us in consciousness. People ask, how could they control craft with their minds? We can do that too. You teach remote viewing, and we have friends who work with telekinesis. We have been dumbed down, but those abilities exist within our greater potential.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
If you look back at the records of history and the movements of thought, Western civilization over the last few hundred years has lived in a kind of scientific bubble, thinking we are the only ones in the universe. But in the historic records from China, India, Middle Eastern cultures, Greece, and the Latin world, you find indications from great philosophers that humanity is part of a much larger reality.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Let me ask the big question. Is Jesus an extraterrestrial?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
Does Jesus ride a flying saucer? Absolutely not. But it is a real question. How do we place Jesus, who physically incarnated on this planet? He was not simply like a regular human. He came from a higher reality, entered this world, taught us, and then left this world.

Dr. Hurtak and I are known for our work with the Shroud of Turin. We have discussed how it shows a movement from the physical body back into the light body. So Christ came from a light body, entered into this realm, and returned to the light body. When we talk about extraterrestrials, for the most part we may be talking about beings in third-, fourth-, or fifth-dimensional realities. That is not the same as light beings, which are a whole other category, sometimes called ultra-terrestrials.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
The reference Desiree made to the Shroud of Turin connects with research at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a branch of Caltech in Los Angeles. I had the opportunity to work with Dr. Don Lynn, who did image-enhancement analysis of the cloth. He was convinced that a process of sublimation took place between the Christ figure and what appears in the details of the blood and light manifestation.

We are now looking with new scientific tools and methods at ancient stories of contact, as well as modern stories of contact, with a better sense of logic.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
Alan, why do you think they are different?

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Because I think their conscious awareness is different. They can get into people's dreams, and they can manipulate thought. We may be able to do that, but we have not yet developed that awareness.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
There are many types. If we look at the four categories, the Nordics are very similar to us. Some may have elongated skulls, which could mean they developed certain capacities more than we have. But that does not mean we do not have those abilities. Then there are the greys, which even Whitley Strieber has described as containers. What is interesting is that people have written about some of the greys wanting our soul. In biblical terms, we came from a higher reality, fell into this dimension, and were given garments of skin.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
I agree with much of that, but let us return to the main point of this show. How do we integrate the ET presence and phenomenon into religion, or is religion adding data at this point?

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
In terms of the Bible and the original texts, this phenomenon does not necessarily contradict the deeper teachings. I like the example of Steven Spielberg's film, where a religious figure asks why God would make such a vast universe and save it only for us. That is exactly the question.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
How do we integrate this new phenomenon into people's religious beliefs?

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
The Bible can be read in a way that confirms a larger creation. This is why higher levels of the Vatican, and those connected with the Vatican Observatory, are aware that extraterrestrials exist and that this does not necessarily fly in the face of Genesis.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
Religions are also based on belief and culture. There is an all-wise intelligence that all of us are part of. You can call it God or by another name. We are fractal units of that larger intelligence, just as the ETs are fractal units of all that is.

We have heard stories in which people call on the name of Jesus or express deep religious conviction, and certain encounters immediately change or stop. Representative Anna Paulina Luna has also raised the question of why some UFO experiences seem to shift when the person involved has strong religious conviction.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
My theory is that some people's beliefs are so strong that they cannot be manipulated by these extraterrestrial forces.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
That can be a positive thing. But it is not simply the fact of religion; it is that their belief has made them separate in a sense. It gives them a frequency or boundary that cannot be easily manipulated.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
Our work over more than fifty years as linguists and researchers of ancient biblical and non-biblical texts shows that certain divine pronouncements, sacred words, and expressions were used to engage believers with the angelic world and disconnect them from demigods or fallen hierarchies, which in Hebrew traditions are associated with the Nephilim.

We have found throughout the world that people of many religious backgrounds, particularly Judeo-Christian, use the names of God presented in the Holy Scriptures to discern and protect themselves from vibratory presences of high forms they do not understand.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
The big question is this: what would you say to religious leaders to tell their congregations about ETs? How would you present it?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
The first thing I would say is that most extraterrestrials are not here to enlighten us. There have always been beings who enlightened humanity - Buddha, Christ, Moses, and others. So yes, there are beings who can enlighten us. But the majority of extraterrestrials are on the same wavelength as we are. Some are positive, some are negative, and some are indifferent. There may be reptilian forms that are literally against us.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
How would you talk to people who are waking up and saying, "Yes, extraterrestrials exist"? How does that fit with their concept of God and reality?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
It fits because you are introducing them to other local intelligences. These intelligences include good, bad, and indifferent beings, just as humanity does. If they are not on the level of the divine, then this does not have to do with losing one's faith. It has to do with an expanded notion of reality.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
In The Keys of Enoch cosmology, we distinguish between UFOs, flying saucers, and Merkabah vehicles. Merkabah vehicles are those that can take us to other dimensional realities. This is connected with what Ezekiel saw.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Do we not also have that Merkabah around our body?

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
Theoretically, we do. But there are beings who can augment that energy around us and take us to divine levels. That is the vehicle of light.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
So some ET races may not use craft. They may have their own vehicle of light.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
We illustrated this in our computer film Merkabah: Voyage of a Starseed, which received several international awards. In that film, the viewer is taken on a journey into the vastness of the universe and into the meaning of hyperspace. We have to learn to discern these levels of intelligence. This calls for a more positive psychology and theology, as well as an understanding of Christ's teaching about the house of many mansions. In the New Testament, that suggests a plurality of worlds.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
According to our cosmology, beyond this universe there are other universes. We refer to the Father Universe and the Shekinah Universe, the divine presence and creative power that manifest other worlds. This world is an experimental realm. Thought-forms move throughout the system. It is dualistic, and every moment is a moment of choice. That is true for us, for reptilians, insectoids, greys, and Nordics.

Where our cosmology differs from many extraterrestrial investigators is that they often say the Nephilim created our DNA. If you go back to the original Book of Enoch, and to Genesis chapter six, there are accounts of beings coming in and having relations with the daughters of men. The Book of Enoch describes this in much greater detail and says giants were created. The higher angelic forces intervened, and the flood wiped out the giants and restored the original genetic code.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
I like the idea of a higher light code because that has to do with consciousness. Consciousness is universal, non-local, and infinite. It is encoded into the physical body through light-code technologies, and that is what comes out of the Enoch material.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
In the historic Book of Enoch, we see a dialectic between giants of the Earth and what could be called giants of space - Archangel Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and others who intervene. Many people look at this as mythological, but history repeats itself. In some work behind the scenes with governments in Mexico and Brazil, we have seen images of grotesque beings. So one cannot blame the average person for seeing some of these entities as fallen experimenters or probes.

Our mutual friend Budd Hopkins would refer to some of them as uninvited intruders who come in and present a different formula for education through genetics and genetic manipulation. We now face a tremendous challenge to raise human consciousness quickly so that we understand we have both friends and foes in the universe.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Let us get back to consciousness. We are conscious beings. These ETs are obviously conscious beings. This is a place of meaning and of taking us all to the next level. Maybe they need something from us, but they also have technologies and understandings of history and biology that we could use.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
Consciousness is supreme here. In our work with physicists such as Elizabeth Rauscher, consciousness is the ability and capacity to deal with all levels of universal intelligence.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
When we say they need something from us, it may not only be our soul capacity, but also our genetic capacity. Some species, according to researchers such as Dan Burisch, may have cloned themselves to the point that their genetic makeup is deteriorating. That is why they may need our genetics. Even cattle mutilation could be interpreted through that lens. We eat cows for nutrition; they may also seek biological elements, enzymes, and other components.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
Dan Burisch was a microbiologist who worked in Area 51, and we had the opportunity to know him. He agreed with information postulated in The Keys of Enoch that we are one of many experiments connected with divine-source God code from above, rather than simply experimental ET code from below.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
We are not only one humanity. We may discover that we are the endemic species. What is unusual is that we may find ourselves classified as Nordics in outer space. That means we did not evolve exclusively on this planet. Our DNA is in the Pleiades, Sirius, and other star systems discussed in The Keys of Enoch. We are rediscovering our cosmic family.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Gary Nolan says DNA is far older than the Earth. The Earth is about four and a half billion years old, and DNA, the molecule of life, is much older. So we may have been seeded from other star systems, in a kind of panspermia creation.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
Dr. Hurtak took it a step further in The Keys of Enoch by saying that we have codes of the divine within us. He wrote about this in 1973, and now it is becoming more popular with other writers. These higher codes help us access the higher soul and the multidimensional aspects that are now being discussed in congressional hearings and public disclosure conversations.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
If we have humility and keep an open mind, we understand that our genetic capacity is part of the divine creation story that continues. Not everyone will agree with our cosmology, but it is the cosmology of an experience I had beginning in 1970.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Let us look at your cosmology. The understanding that extraterrestrials exist adds another layer to the "house of many mansions" that Christ talked about. There are many realms, many beings, many forms of intelligence, and many layers.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
To answer your question, our cosmology is based on a multidimensional universe. We are in one part of this multidimensional training of our soul capacity, ultimately to join other cultures in a sovereign creation story that continues. There are extraterrestrial layers, but there are also figures such as Melchizedek, who materialized here without mother or father, according to some Christian and Jewish traditions. There are Sumerian accounts of strange beings and craft-like vehicles. We are one form within the vastness of the universe, learning and growing into the house of many mansions.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Let us talk about interdimensionality, which Representative Anna Paulina Luna has mentioned in interviews. She is a very religious person and has referenced the Book of Enoch as one of her sources. How do you integrate interdimensionality into a religious context?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
There are several aspects of interdimensionality. Even the concept of dimensions is often poorly defined. People speak of the eighth dimension or twelfth dimension, but we may not be defining those terms properly.

Still, we ourselves are interdimensional. When we travel at night, when we dream, and when we remote-view, we can go into the future or the past. We have interdimensional capacity. We simply have not connected to it fully.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
I think extraterrestrials coming into our midst will awaken us because we will know who we are at a greater level. In the film Moment of Contact by James Fox, at the end, the alien intelligence communicates to one of the doctors taking care of the being that landed in Varginha, Brazil. The message was, "It is so sad. You humans do not know who you really are."

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
Exactly. We do not know who we really are, and religion should be helping us know that. But let us break it down. What would be step one for people who are just waking up to this?

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
Wake up, grow up, clean up, and stand up. The preoccupation with materialistic society, reductionistic materialism, has kept us in a closet of perception. But people already have the ability to connect and activate their higher selves. Not every person will do so immediately, but the ability is there.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
Extraterrestrials may help awaken our higher identity, but they will not do it for us. They may awaken us to the point where we can do it for ourselves. There is an all-knowing intelligence of which all of us are part. We should not limit God to this planet. God is not only the God of Earth, but of every system where there is civilization, intelligent life, or developing life.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
The original Hebrew Bible recognizes seven heavens. In the New Testament, the Apostle Paul speaks of being taken to the third heaven. The ancient thinkers recognized multiple worlds. We have been isolated because of the experiments of incarnation and our own choice to be here.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
We again see extraterrestrials as similar in consciousness level to us because we came from light energy. In Genesis, before the fall, we had garments of light and then took on bodies of skin. That means we also have the capacity found in higher levels of extraterrestrial intelligence. Those beings may look at us and say, "You have a high soul capacity. Join us when you become more peaceful."

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Why are they coming now?

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
We need a new anthropology and cosmology. The game does not stop with Mother Earth. Studies connected with Russell Targ and others at Stanford Research Institute showed that consciousness can go into the future, opening perceptual doors to multidimensional realms that we must ultimately move into. Evolution does not stop with Mother Earth.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
I believe in the infinite capacity of the soul. Maybe these beings do not have the same capacity, or maybe they are trying to learn from us because we are feeling, emotional, loving beings. We are in a graduation time. We are going to meet these beings. They may help expand the possibilities of who we are and bring new technologies and understanding to this world.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Break it down. Step one: what would you tell people who have never heard of extraterrestrials, and how would you tell them that this does not have to interfere with their faith?

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
First, be humble, but also alert and discerning. Recognize the forms that respect our human psyche, our human heart, and our way of life, as opposed to those that would take advantage of us, use us for experimentation, take bodily fluids, or create other life forms.

Second, recognize that there are documents throughout history pointing to more positive than negative forms in the higher realms of creation. Part of our soul growth is learning to go with the light, go with the positive, and ultimately reach cosmic citizenship.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
Whitley Strieber has said that the alien intelligence on the cover of Communion creates grey bodies. Some higher intelligences may not travel in the way we think; they project into different realities. If that being can project into bodies, that also points to the higher soul capacity that we have.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
There may need to be modification of doctrines in some religions that assume the entire universe must be converted to one earthly form. We emphasize the language of the Holy Spirit because the Psalms, the prophet Joel, and Acts chapter two speak of a time when the Holy Spirit will be poured out on old and young alike with prophecy and greater wisdom. That includes the angelic realms, hierarchies, celestials, ultra-terrestrials, and the lords of light.

A living consciousness cosmology through music, linguistics, the reexamination of historic biblical documents, and books left out of the Bible such as the Book of Enoch would be a starting point for understanding the experience of the soul.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
We are not naive to say this will not be a shock. The New York Times article warned pastors that there may be a release of information, and you believe this is only the beginning. David Grusch has also said that more may be coming. Ultimately, people will have to change the idea that we are alone in the universe.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
The Bible, the Upanishads, the Vedic teachings, Buddhist teachings, and the Quran can all accept this broader picture. They have inklings of this release. In Hindu and Buddhist traditions, there are already countless levels of intelligence. The tankas and other images often show beings in the heavens. The Vimanas, cloud imagery, and many levels of beings are already part of their cosmology.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
As we conclude this first part, we are in a liminal space. People are waking up to the fact that something is here. How does that impact the future of the planet?

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
We must understand that we are multidimensional beings in a vast and awesome universe. We must wake up. We must go into the heart and self-realization, realizing that we are a microcosm of the divine in human form. The spirit of the divine works within us to elevate knowledge to a much higher level than materialistic culture allows.

We have an opportunity not to worship extraterrestrials as God, but to go beyond what they represent and enter the knowledge that we are potential cosmic citizens in what Jesus Christ called the house of many mansions.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
But why is this coming now?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
There are two possibilities. One is that there has been a long cover-up. Another is that we may be on the verge of using nuclear weapons, and most positive extraterrestrials are strongly opposed to that. They may need to make themselves known to help us stop that. There may also be environmental issues destroying the planet where they can help and may want to step in.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Once they do make themselves more known, we do not know which ones will come first - the positive ones trying to help, or those involved in abductions.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
Years ago, people thought they wanted to preserve us because we were stuck on this planet. But more and more the question is: do they need us? I think it is a mutual exchange.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
What I want to conclude here is that this phenomenon, as it comes to planet Earth, may help humanity realize we are one humanity. That is key.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
And more than one humanity. Through contact with extraterrestrial species, hopefully we move away from war games. Ronald Reagan once said that if we faced an outside presence, we might see ourselves as one humanity. We can then go into the stars, not as warlike creatures, but as peaceful, loving beings. That is the most important thing we can offer.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
May the divine name protect us. May the divine name prepare us. May the cosmic Christ quicken us so that we are prepared for all realities, knowing that our soul is from the eternal source and not from an extraterrestrial source.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
The best part of all this is understanding that divinity lives within. We are fractals of a greater intelligence, just like these ETs. We can meet them on an even playing field without worship. We can learn about their technology, and they can learn about us. We are at the threshold of a great renaissance for humanity. Culture, technology, biology - it is all at our doorstep. Do not go into fear. Do not retreat into what you already know. Welcome the unknown.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
You are potentially cosmic citizens of the future. Let us make the quest for a positive future by understanding the spiritual heritage of the higher traditions in love, light, and wisdom.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Because we are at a time of graduation, it seems that this is why we are meeting the others now. When you graduate high school, you go to a bigger grade and meet other beings. That is where we are in our evolution. If we can find coherence within our civilization, we can meet them on an even playing field. Bruce Lipton says that when humanity is unified in coherence as a single voice, we can meet the other single voices and create the next superorganism.

I am excited about where we are. Whatever your belief system is, start to expand it. We are in for exciting times and new realities, which I foresaw when I named this program in 1993. The new realities are here. It is time to wake up. It is time to shift our belief system to higher possibilities and know who we really are as divine human beings. The ancient Greeks called this ad astra - to the stars. New Realities is here to open your mind and perceptual apparatus to the stars, where the next chapter of life continues.

Thank you all for watching New Realities with my very special guests, Drs. J.J. and Desiree Hurtak.

[Segment transition]

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Welcome back to New Realities. I am Alan Steinfeld, here with some of my favorite people: Drs. J.J. and Desiree Hurtak, and my new best friend, Rizwan Virk, author of The Simulated Multiverse and The Simulation Hypothesis, now in its second edition. We are going to do a cross-cultural study from different spiritual traditions, including the digital framework, and see how the simulated universe connects with ancient spiritual traditions. Is that fair, Rizwan?

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
Yes.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
So what you are saying is that the digital landscape, the computer tech world, is becoming aligned with ancient spiritual traditions. Is that true?

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
I am saying it is becoming more aligned over time. I was in the video game industry, and in my last company I had an experience where I put on a virtual reality headset and started playing a VR ping-pong game. The responsiveness was so good that for a second it convinced my body that I was playing a real game of ping-pong. I tried to put the paddle on the table and lean against the table, but of course there was no table.

That made me wonder: how long would it take us to build a digital world so realistic, like The Matrix, that we would forget there is a part of us outside the game?

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
That is similar to Dr. Hurtak's experience, when he left this dimensional world, went to another, and saw how the artificial structure of this reality was a kind of simulation. Is that true, Dr. Hurtak?

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
Yes. We are speaking now of paraphysical possibilities where, under certain unique conditions, part of the human psyche can transcend the three-dimensional realm and experience other realities. My background includes studying with Mircea Eliade, the famous scholar of Sanskrit and comparative religion, at the University of Chicago. My PhD thesis was The Language of Secrecy, where I examined the symbolic logic of ancient classical, Kabbalistic, and Buddhist schools of thought. These are large traditions of intellectual philosophy, but the baseline is that these schools believed ordinary reality is artificial and that we are guided by higher dynamic principles.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
We can take it a step further and make it more realistic. It is almost like superstring theory, where we are vibrating at one frequency here, but other frequencies exist as well. Third-dimensional reality is only one aspect of fifth-, sixth-, seventh-, and eighth-dimensional realities. The question is how they fit together.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
That is why I like your work, Rizwan. You are not saying we are just puppets in some big game show in the universe and that, if the programmers do not like what we are doing, they turn us off or slip us into another timeline. You are saying we are connected.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
Yes. My perspective on the simulation hypothesis is different from many people in Silicon Valley, where some think everyone is AI. I think of physical reality more like a massively multiplayer video game. In that world, you have a player outside the game and a character inside the game called an avatar. Avatar is a Sanskrit term that means a divine entity squeezes itself into a human body.

By taking that approach, we can link what many spiritual traditions have been telling us: the world is not real in the way we think it is. It is a type of illusion or Maya.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
But that is not a new thing.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
No, it is not new. In each tradition, someone may peek outside the physical world, and when they return, they have to describe it in a way that makes sense to people of that time. You get Plato's cave, Buddha's dream, Shakespeare's stage play, and then Paramahansa Yogananda, when he came to the U.S. about a century ago, used the metaphor of the film projector. Film was the latest technology then, so he explained Maya and karma through that metaphor. If he were alive today, I think he would update the metaphor.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
Historically, the wisdom schools had the possibility of mental projection into another dimension and then looking back at human experience as quasi-illusionary. Your work on simulation theory brings that idea into a common vocabulary today. We are all entertaining the possibility of parallel realities and alternate times.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
The connection between our tradition and yours is that when we know the rules of the game, when we know it is an illusion, we can avoid some of the drama and intensity. I understand the Sanskrit word illusion, but I also see this reality as a way of playing out certain things the soul wants to evolve through. The illusion is not that nothing exists; the illusion is that this is all there is. The anti-illusion is knowing we are connected to the higher self and that we chose to come here and play these games.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
I think that is right. When I talk about simulation theory, there are five assertions. The first is that the world consists of information. This table is bits of information. The second is that information gets computed over time. We see fractal algorithms in nature and DNA as an information source and processing system. The third is that this information is rendered for us so it looks real.

If we were in a video game together, it might appear that we were standing in a field with a castle, but it would be rendered that way. Assertions four and five are interesting. Assertion four says the whole thing is a kind of hoax. Assertion five says we agreed to participate in the hoax.

In a video game, or a game like Dungeons and Dragons, you choose your character. You choose whether you are an elf, dwarf, human, warrior, thief, cleric, or bard. You choose certain challenges. These are the quests that appear to you. If we think of reality this way, then we may have chosen our characters to deal with certain issues. The people with more difficult quests may actually be the more advanced players.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
Exactly. The challenge is important. I want to return to your book The Simulated Multiverse. We have talked about many universes for a long time, including work with Dr. Elizabeth Rauscher. In my mind, each universe may have its own rules. We live in a duality system here, and every moment is a moment of choice. Another universe may have something else we cannot even imagine because we only have the mind for this universe. Do you agree with that?

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
In The Simulated Multiverse I say that if you can run a simulation once, you would run it more than once because you would want to try different variables. You would want to see what happens if you do this versus that.

I talk about different kinds of multiverses. One kind might have different physical laws. The quantum multiverse is the one I focus on, and it is about the choices we make. In one interpretation of quantum mechanics, called the collapse of the probability wave, you cannot really have probability unless something is run more than once. If I flip a coin once, that is not a probability. Probability comes from running it multiple times.

The multiverse interpretation says that every choice - whether I go to college in Boston or California, whether I marry this person or that person - branches off into a different part of our intended life.

Philip K. Dick influenced this idea for me. I interviewed his wife while writing the first book. In a famous speech in Metz, France, in 1977, he said we are living in a computer-programmed reality and that the only clue we have is when some variable changes, giving us the sense of deja vu. He believed The Man in the High Castle described a real timeline where Germany and Japan won World War II, and that perhaps the simulators ran a different timeline because they did not like where that one went.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
Your book suggests that we carry within ourselves a blueprint of multidimensional thinking and reality. We are not pinned like butterflies to three-dimensional words. Through the power of mind, we can reach higher questions, higher understanding, and higher reinterpretation. That becomes a new roadmap, especially as we confront the possibility that AI may soon challenge human decision-making and free choice.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
AI is an interesting topic. We are choosing right now how to deal with another life form. I will say this as the woman here: it is like we are birthing a new creation. How do we deal with it? We believe we came from a higher creation into manifestation, and now we are doing something similar with AI. We are playing God in a certain sense and birthing it. What controls, teachings, or management do we apply? Do we let the kid run wild, or do we do something practical and higher?

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
There is a big intersection between AI and simulation theory. A new version is sometimes called prompt theory. The idea is that someone writes a prompt telling AI to create a fully realistic video of people saying, "We are not in a simulation." There have already been viral videos like that.

Google has also introduced Genie, which lets you describe a universe you want to create and then creates an interactive video-game-like world that you can explore. It is like the holodeck in Star Trek: The Next Generation. Gene Roddenberry came up with multiple levels of reality where, through the power of the mind, you can go to another reality level.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
If every decision branches into multiple universes, sometimes I feel I want to go back and hook up with another version of myself.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
There are exercises where you can tune into an alternate version of yourself. You use imagination initially to glimpse that version, and then explore what that person's life is like. In the film Everything Everywhere All at Once, the character reaches into other universes and brings something back. That is the idea.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
All of this is interesting, but what does it mean right now in this reality?

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
Let us talk about the Mandela Effect, where a subset of people remember something happening differently. Fiona Broome explored this when people remembered Nelson Mandela dying in prison. There is also a Star Trek-related example where fans remembered an episode that the actors said they never made. The assumption is that there is only one possible path, but maybe there are multiple paths.

Quantum mechanics suggests something strange occurs when choices and observations happen. Schrodinger, known for the cat thought experiment, suggested that we may be choosing from simultaneous histories. Some people who experience the Mandela Effect may be remembering another history.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
That suggests reverse causality within the quantum factor - that you can affect the past.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
It is a type of retrocausality. Some physicists would say you are not actually changing the past; you are choosing the past. But practically, that can seem almost the same.

There is the delayed-choice experiment. Imagine light traveling from a billion light years away, and halfway along there is a black hole. The light must go left or right around the black hole. When does the decision occur? The experiment suggests that it is not decided until we measure it now. The measurement today determines which path it took, even though the path would have been taken long ago.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
Stanford Research Institute conducted studies on psychic ability in the 1970s and 1980s, including progressive and regressive cognition. Some sensitive individuals could momentarily go back in time.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
The question is whether we can influence things in the past. I would agree there is something real in delayed choice. But we are also part of this whole simulated reality. If we have higher knowledge, perhaps we already know what is going to happen. That connects with Alan's work and ours with remote viewing.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Right now, in this solid universe, are we also in another universe having a slightly different discussion?

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
Possibly. There may have been a version where we could not coordinate a time to meet. We may be trying out different timelines and then ending up on one major timeline that we all agree on, even if some people remember other timelines.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
How can we make this the best reality we want?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
This raises the question of the nature of human reality. Are we three-dimensional, or multidimensional? We may be controlling some part of the simulation from outside this reality. That is similar to yoga traditions that say we are characters having dramas while another part of us is outside the drama. There may be a death of the illusion, but there is not a death of who we are or of the soul.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
That can help us through challenges - financial, relational, or physical. If we think of them as quests or challenges, it gives us confidence. In a video game, you usually do not get the hardest quest immediately. You start with things you can handle. As you level up, you get more difficult quests.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
In our work with comparative linguistics, religion, and philosophy, we arrive at a similar position. There is a baseline, but we are not pinned to that baseline. The higher self, or overself, gives us choices and opportunities.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
We wrote a book called Overself Awakening. We see the reality that we exist in a higher reality - whether someone calls it the twelfth dimension, twenty-fourth dimension, or another game world. We are one of the extensions. The ancients understood that we could have many bodies. We could be here now and also perhaps in the past or future, because time is an illusion. We choose to be here to accomplish certain things for the universe.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
A key part of this is forgetfulness. Every spiritual tradition describes some level of forgetfulness when we incarnate. I was once asked to speak at an Islamic jurisprudence conference. Scholars were debating when life begins and when the soul enters the body. I suggested a different metaphor: ensoulment is like putting on a VR headset. It is when you forget what you were doing before.

The Greeks spoke of Lethe, the river of forgetfulness. The Chinese have Meng Po, the goddess of forgetfulness, who brews the tea of forgetfulness. In Islam, there are references to veils of light and dark. The Arabic word for person can be connected with the idea of being imprisoned, and another term suggests forgetfulness. All of these traditions describe the same principle in different metaphors.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
On the other end of that, my mother died recently and she did not believe in any of this. Yet I feel that now she is remembering on the other side that it was a game, a drama, and that she had lessons to learn. So there is remembering as well as forgetting.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
Yes. When you die, you begin to remember.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
But we do not have to die to remember. That is the key. We can remember the soul's incarnation on many levels and see all the simulations being played out. This is a precious moment of consciousness awakening, supported by new technology.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
Rizwan's work provides a bridge to modernity, science, and technology. Instead of going into MIT and speaking immediately about apparitions, near-death experiences, and life reviews, you can begin by asking whether the world is made of information. Many physicists now accept that information is fundamental. If the world is information, then information can be changed.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
Exactly. The logical implication is that if the world is information, then information can be modified. Anyone outside the game could appear to those inside as a supernatural entity, angel, or non-player character.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
This also goes back to Flatland. If beings live in a two-dimensional space and we are three-dimensional, we can see more of their reality than they can. If fourth-, fifth-, or eighth-dimensional beings see our three-dimensional world, they may see more of us than we see of ourselves.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Ideas can come into this reality without having to be in a physical form. A scientist might receive an idea for a car that does not run on gas. A musician might say the music just came to them, like Paul McCartney's "Yesterday." Where do those ideas come from?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
There is always information on this planet for our personal evolution. Whether we choose it or not is up to us. I still believe in free will. Even if we are playing in this world, we still make choices.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
I agree. Generally speaking, you choose the overall storyline, but you do not make every little choice beforehand. In a game, the designer gives you the illusion of free will, but you still have to make choices.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
You may also go back and try again. Instead of reincarnation, Dr. Hurtak and I often use the term biogenesis. The idea is that we have a higher reality of who we are, and we biogenetically enter certain planetary systems, times, and conditions for the experience we want to have.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
That is similar to saying avatar.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
Yes, in a way. Yesterday the world was a machine; today it is a hologram; tomorrow there may be another metaphor. Spiritual processes are evolving for a new technological society. We are going somewhere. This gaming is leading somewhere, though we may not yet know what that is.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
Is it possible that if we are choosing a past, we are also choosing our past lives and tuning into a past life now based on our current challenge?

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
There is a quantum interpretation called the transactional interpretation. It suggests possible futures send information back, and the one we tune into or observe becomes the path.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
When you talk about quantum mechanics, there are infinite futures.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
If the future were completely known, it would already be complete. But if we are open to spirit and reality, we are always receiving something we have yet to imagine. That is the adventure of living. Every moment is an ongoing revelation.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
I am not saying we all know everything. We are all playing the game together. It is a multiplayer game. Swami Yogananda said the nature of this world is not ceaseless joy. In the Quran, it is described as an enjoyable delusion, though enjoyable must be put in quotes because it is not always enjoyable. A game must be easy enough to play but difficult enough to master.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
But for many people this is not a great game or simulation. How do we shift this into something positive for almost everyone?

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
We need a higher view of who we are and what is going on. The simulation hypothesis tells us not to take identity so seriously. We identify with emotion, politics, sports teams, nationality, and all kinds of masks. But that is not who we are. Those are masks of the avatar, or even an NPC mode, where we repeat what we have learned in physical life and forget the soul.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
So the idea is to bring the soul into the avatar so we can know the next step that brings the most joy, benefit, compassion, and love.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
Exactly. In near-death experiences, there is often a life review. How is the life measured? Usually the being of light asks what you did, whether you did what you said you would do, and how you treated other people. The life review is not just from your perspective; it is from other people's perspectives.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
That is important. You have to experience how your actions affected others.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
In a video-game model, that can make sense because everything is recorded. A game can replay any moment from any location or perspective.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
And in Christianity there is the Book of Life, which speaks to the biological and spiritual understanding of why we are here in this incarnation.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
I see the Book of Life as a metaphor. It does not have to be a literal physical book with angels and thunder. In Islam, there is the scroll of deeds where angels write down good and bad deeds. These are technological metaphors trying to explain something real. If we take metaphors from different religions and ask what they would describe if they were real, today we might use a technological metaphor to understand it.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
Archangel Michael, for example, can be understood as a protector. That is an energy. It does not have to be limited to one being. Consciousness can go into many realities. Like Quan Yin with her many arms, it can be everywhere and never leave what it is doing.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
That sounds more like a process.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
But in terms of religion, that does not mean any one tradition is inaccurate. It means we are starting to understand more of what was being said: that there is an afterlife, there is power, and there are things we can do. The divine spirit can empower us to do more here.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
My favorite movie is Groundhog Day. The main character keeps playing the same level until something internally shifts him out of it. He becomes of service to everyone and himself, and then he goes to the next level.

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
He replayed the game again and again until he figured it out. That is the challenge.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
So is that the final solution? Service to everyone and yourself, doing what you love, and helping others?

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
How we treat other people is the point of the game. Once we learn that, perhaps we do not have to play in the same way.

Speaker 2 - Dr. J.J. Hurtak:
Life is not merely a game. It is a gift through which we use creative dynamics in all possibilities. We should not surrender life to a cage or construct that removes joy, purpose, compassion, and higher understanding. We are rediscovering ourselves in both a technical and a trans-technical sense.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
What would be your takeaway for people watching?

Speaker 4 - Rizwan Virk:
Enjoy all the experiences of the video game of life, including the negative ones. Why do people watch horror movies? Why do actors often win Oscars for roles involving suffering? There is something in the challenge that expands the player. It is not only for evolution; it is also to help one another.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Desiree Hurtak:
I believe we are in a 3D or 4D space reality, and we are working to change this entire reality by bringing in more positive energy and more life.

Speaker 1 - Alan Steinfeld:
My conclusion is that we are in this beautiful simulation, and when we realize it, we can enjoy it more. We can smell the flowers, help other people, serve others and ourselves, and keep learning. I am here to learn. Everything is here for our empowerment. These are lovely avatars. Enjoy the game and the gift of life.

Thank you, Drs. Hurtak and Rizwan. Always good to see you. Stay tuned for our next show with Rizwan Virk and the Hurtaks. Thank you.