[00:13] Speaker 1: Welcome to Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. My name is Chip DeBlock and I'm your host for a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a law enforcement perspective. And let me introduce the crew, and, and, uh, if you don't mind waiting for the, uh, for the viewers, Chief, we have, uh, Chief Joel Schultz and, uh, he's currently in Colorado, retired police chief. He's also known as Dr. Joel Schultz. So thanks for being on the show. Appreciate it. Also a shout-out to our sponor- sponsors. You know, our, our title sponsor is Galls at galls.com, and don't forget that discount code. It's Radio 15. Go to galls.com, type in Radio 1-5 in order to get 15% off your next purchase. It works on most purchases. And also Comply Technology, Stockholm, our satellite sponsor. And yeah, most of you guys know that today's our last day with Westwood One. Uh, a shout-out to George with Westwood One. I talked to him this morning.

[01:00] Speaker 1: You gotta call in every morning about 15 minutes before you go live to make sure the sound levels, everything's hooked up before you, you know... That's just, that's what you do on, on, uh, you know, on satellite. So it's been great working with you. We're gonna be making the transition to, uh, SiriusXM. I'll keep you guys updated on that. But Westwood One is a fantastic company. We've had a great ride over the last year. We started on Cinco de Mayo last year, and, uh, so yeah, we're, we're, we're, we're planning on keeping all the equipment and staying on satellite, and just being through another avenue that's probably gonna work better for the f- for the show and for the format that we have. A shout-to, uh, also gunlearn.com, mymedicare.live, Safeguard Recruiting, our streaming sponsor. We're streaming to about a million people right now during the live show. And twobells.com. They built a new online store at leoroundtable.com.

[01:44] Speaker 1: And a shout-out to Bryan Burns, Tampa Free Press at tampafd.com. Thanks for carrying our content. Also Ray Dietrich with formerlawman.com, and Travis Yates with lawofficer.com. Thanks to all those entities for helping make the show happen. And guys, don't forget, we're on podcasts, Spotify, Apple, iTunes, you name it, we're on it. Social media, Rumble, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, uh, True Social, all that stuff. So there's a lot of ways to watch the show. Now, let's whet the appetite. One in the world that we're gonna be talking about today, um, would-be assassin's Rambo hit list. Prosecutors say that Trump was definitely targeted, and he was the mark. And we have a former Florida congre- uh, congressman convicted of secretly selling influence to the Maduro regime. We have two people charged there, including, you know, there was a lobbyist too. We've heard about that, but now that's, that's come to fruition.

[02:32] Speaker 1: We've got a Fort Wayne officer stabbed and a suspect fatally shot during a domestic dispute. We got, we got a lot of things with, like, knives. We got a, a, a knife there, a butcher knife coming up, and a machete coming up after that. Uh, this man that I'm talking about now, armed with a butcher knife, fatally shot by Houston police officers. We got Temple Terrace, uh, police officer right... Very close to where I live because I grew up at Temple Terrace. That officer arrested for going over 100 miles an hour in a crash. They killed a six-year-old. I wanna cover the story 'cause this guy was young, and I just wanna remind all these young cops out there, become a cop, you get that power, get that cool equipment, get that cool car, guys, don't think that you are immune from stuff like this happening. Um, we've got, uh, NYPD officers fatally shoot a guy, or machete, or machete man, machete-wielding suspect after he attacked three people, and he was, he was attacking elderly people.

[03:24] Speaker 1: And, uh, and, and, and these guys are in a world of hurt. Uh, we have Riverside Police Chief fires three officers who had disabled military veteran license plates. Uh, that'll probably be the first, uh, update story that we cover. Um, I know the chief is, is, is wanting to cover that one. So, uh, so Chief, if you're ready, let's go ahead and talk about the main topic, uh, Tampa Free Press at tampafd.com. That's, uh, Bryan Burns' publication. Would-be assassin's Rambo hit list. Prosecutors say that Trump was the targeted mark. So federal prosecutors have released a six-minute video they say proves the 31-year-old, um, or assassin wannabe... I'm not gonna give his name, but he's a former NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory intern in, uh, intended to assassinate President Donald Trump at the White House Correspondents' Association Dinner. Now, Jeanine Pirro, we love her from Fox, right? Um, you know, she's doing a lot of the talking here.

[04:16] Speaker 1: Uh, but during an appearance under the State of the Union, Pirro addressed questions regarding Allen's manifesto, reportedly does not name the prote- the, uh, president directly, but she argued that the subject's digital trail and physical movements, they paint a definitive picture of his intent. Now, according to her, Allen, uh, began the att- the, uh, the plan for the attack as soon as the president confirmed that he was gonna attend this dinner. The investigator... Remember, it was the first one in his presidency that he's attended. Investigators recovered data from Allen's phone, but there, I ga- gave his name. I didn't give his first name though. Uh, showing that he was tracking the president, his, he, he knew his exact locations within the hotel. Doesn't say how he tracked it, but I, I'm, I'm sure he had some kind of a service that was giving out the, the details, including whether he, the president had reached the ballroom or sat down for dinner.

[05:02] Speaker 1: Now, Pirro described the suspect as being armed to the teeth. He carried a freaking revolver, though. I'm not saying they can't kill somebody, but I'm just saying if you're, you're gonna do mass carnage and stuff, maybe the guy wasn't proficient with weapons. I was a little surprised at what he... Uh, a revolver, a shotgun, and a knife. So I'm just a little surprised on, on, you know... He just may not be a, a, a gun guy. But anyhow, armed to the teeth, and he certainly was armed to, to do some carnage. Uh, this guy thought he was Rambo, uh, she was talking with host j- uh, Jake Tapper, dismissing any suggestion that the suspect suffered from a mental breakdown. Um, she emphasized that he is highly educated, holds a master's degree and a professional degree in aerospace engineering, which I gotta admit is pretty impressive. Uh, prosecutors intend to argue that the cross-country trip from the West Coast to Washington, DC was calculated and they...

[05:50] Speaker 1: it was documented by, um, uh, mission fueled by a specific animosity towards the president. And so there you go. That's the latest update on this. I wanted to bring this out on today's show. Chief, uh, Joel Schultz.

[06:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, uh, y- you know, we, we wonder if there's continuing updates in this because the cy- as the news cycle goes along, but there were a couple of things that, that, uh, attracted my attention. I really hadn't thought about the choice of weaponry. Um, and even, even having a, uh, a pelleted cartridge, um, in a shotgun is, you know, the guys, the guys had a, had a background in, in physics and aerospace engineering. He oughta know a little bit about velocity and mass and those kinds (laughs) of things, uh, but, but you're right. That, that's the one thing he apparently failed to research. It was interesting that he got off a shot that injured that Secret Service, or I, I assume it was, yeah, a Secret Service, uh, agent, um, because that sh- that shows that... To, to me, it shows that he was willing to do a lot more damage than just the President. He was, he was willing to shoot his way into that, uh, into that situation.

[06:59] Speaker 2: Um, and I'm, I, I was, I was flummoxed from the very beginning when so many people were saying, "Well, we, we weren't sure that the President was the target." And I'm like, "Why do you doubt that?" I know, I know you gotta prove it, and the lawyer's gonna say, "Oh, there was no intent," so I understand the legal ramifications of it. But, but nobody, uh, in their right mind would doubt that, that Trump was the target, and now that we have these, um, preparation things that we see, uh, as a pattern definitely shows, uh, definitely shows intent. I was interested, and, and there's a, there's a component I know you'll be ex- especially interested in. Um, I, I wasn't quite sure ab- you know what I'm talking about.

[07:42] Speaker 1: Don't tease- Don't tease me. (laughs)

[07:45] Speaker 2: (laughs) Um, I wasn't sure about this, uh, uh, weapons charge that he got for traveling across the country. I've, I, I have a concealed carry, uh, permit. I'm not Leosa because I was, I was, uh, uh, uh, not normally discharged from my last police agency and I don't think they would like to have me on the range qualifying every year, uh, for the, uh, retired cop, uh, federal permit. But, um, I always just check whatever state I'm going into, do they have reciprocity, and most of them do for, for me carrying conceal, but they charged this guy with some type of interstate travel that there's a, um, a law called the FOPA, the Firearms Owners Protection Act, and you, you never, uh, you never assume the content of a bill by the name of it, right?

[08:33] Speaker 2: Um, but, uh, it, it protects people who are traveling into states that might be hostile to the Second Amendment, um, and of course, this guy traveled a, a long way on Amtrak, which I love traveling on Amtrak because you can carry a weapon, um, but supposedly this act only protects you if you are, um, if you have it unloaded and in a protected case, almost like what you have to do to check in a, a weapon in your, in your baggage on, uh-

[09:03] Speaker 1: Airport.

[09:04] Speaker 2: ... through TSA. Uh, but anyway, it was, he was charged with that which was, uh, which was interesting. But he- have, have you seen, uh, Chip the, the, uh, canine reacting to the doorway where this bad guy was?

[09:17] Speaker 1: I have. Yeah. Yeah.

[09:19] Speaker 2: Um, I thought that was very interesting and I'm curious what the canine handler thought. Now, this was-

[09:26] Speaker 1: Exactly.

[09:27] Speaker 2: If this, if this dog was detecting gunpowder and was therefore a bomb dog, bomb dogs, as I'm sure you know, don't have, um, a big reaction to, you know, to signal that they've, that they've discovered something. You take a drug dog in there, they'll paw the upholstery and tear it up and bark and all that kind of stuff, but bomb dogs, you want them to be nice and quiet and still when they let you know that there's something suspicious.

[09:51] Speaker 2: So, um, that, that canine may very well have alerted on, um, some, some firearm, gun, gunpowder type of stuff-

[09:59] Speaker 1: Good point.

[10:00] Speaker 2: ... which they're able to do, and I'm, I'm curious why that wasn't, uh, why that wasn't explored a little bit more.

[10:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, it looked like the canine wanted to go into that room and follow the guy in-

[10:10] Speaker 2: Right.

[10:10] Speaker 1: ... and the handler kind of wasn't really inclined to let that happen, I guess, so, um, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. A- and you know, another thing is, you know, I know that we do have, in all honesty, not, not that... It wouldn't be a weapon of choice for me if I was a bad guy. However, I always tell people, unless you've shot a semiautomatic not even 100, like thousands of times, you're not gonna know what to do. It's not... If it's gonna jam, it's when, right? Um, and, and we do have some attempted mass shootings or even mass shootings where the weapons have jammed and, and, you know, unless you really know what you're doing, you hold the weapon too, too lightly and it absorbs, you know, a lot of the, um, you know, a lot of the power that's used to rack, you know, rack the new one in the chamber, get rid of the old one, you know. It'll, it'll malfunction. Um, so many things can go wrong and then you don't know how to clear them.

[10:59] Speaker 1: So, I mean, I tell people, carry, get a revolver if you're not, if you haven't run that many rounds through a semiautomatic. It's just, it's almost fail-safe, right? So maybe that's what the thought was, um, but again, you're limited to those five or six shots, you know, so...

[11:16] Speaker 2: Yeah, this, uh, it, it'll be an interesting case, and I... You know, the other thing that, that the average, uh, ordinary person doesn't probably think about is I'm sure the Secret Service folks, and again, it's never just the Secret Service. All the other federal agencies and local agencies are involved in this too, but are, are they thinking about, is this a diversion? Is there somebody else waiting in the wings? Is there an explosive device?

[11:41] Speaker 1: Good point.

[11:41] Speaker 2: Very complicated situation even though it was a lone gunman.

[11:45] Speaker 1: Well, perfect time, perfect timing, Chief. We're up before our first commercial break, so guys, stick with us. We're gonna... We got some great stuff coming up. Stick with us. We'll be right back. (instrumental music plays) My family only cares about one thing: that I come home safe.

[12:00] Speaker 3: At Galls, every order begins with a promise. Made with purpose.... stitched for support, backed with pride, answered by dedicated hands, delivering the standard you have sworn to uphold. We serve more than the mission. We serve the person. Each piece is engineered to help get our first responders through the shift and back home safe.

[12:53] Speaker 1: Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. The law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I'm your host. We're joined by Dr. Joel Schultz, retired police chief. And, uh, we've been talking about, about the latest with our would-be assassin from the White House Correspondents' Association Dinner. Um, any, uh, any final words on that, Chief, before we roll on?

[13:12] Speaker 2: No. I, I might wanna know more about your weekend. We were talking a little bit on the commercial break, and did, did I understand it was mostly gambling and drinking all weekend?

[13:20] Speaker 1: I don't gamble. So here's the thing. I, I try not to offend people, and it's hard to explain. It's not necessarily a religious thing, although I'm, you know... I hate to say that I'm religious, 'cause I'm a, I'm a Christian. A lot of people can be religious about mowing their lawn every day, right? So-

[13:36] Speaker 2: Right, right.

[13:37] Speaker 1: Um, you know, I try to read the Bible on a daily basis. Um, but that said, after working in organized crime, I... You know what? I, I have, I have... I've done gambling investigations. Rea- I've, I've always been kind of reluctant to. Um, there's a lot of things with, like, the numbers and the, and the spreads and stuff that gets kind of complicated. And I was never really a gambling guy. They really... But I work with a lot of guys i- in my unit that, that... I met with some people that did gambling, so I, I ultimately had to do gambling investigations. But I've seen... I- it's like a disease. I've, I've been to the casinos. I've been to the places where these people just get... They just get consumed with the stuff, and then they get these paychecks, and they just go and they blow 'em. They got a family of five sitting at home waiting. So I, I... It, it's, it... And, and you know what? I don't wanna, I don't wanna support it. I, I don't...

[14:25] Speaker 1: I have no problem if other people want to do that. It's their life. That's fine. I went to, um... I went to this, to this neighbor's house. I mean, you know, it takes me, like, two minutes to drive there. And, uh, they were, they were saying, "Hey, we'll place a bet. Just tell us who you wanna bet on and stuff," and said, "I don't care if it's a penny or a dollar, I'm not betting." I just don't... It's just not my thing. I don't wanna do it. And, and I... I mean, growing through life, I have done little things where I've been, like, a little gambling thing, a slot machine here or there, and it, it is enjoyable, and, and it can... I can see where it can get addictive. So I don't wanna open that door. And, and so for me, yeah, you'll never see me gamble or anything. Now, now the bingo thing, I did do the bingo thing at the, uh, at the FOP Lodge with the wife, and the wife wanted to go do that. And that's... You know, you pay money, you run cards and stuff. That's really no big deal.

[15:08] Speaker 1: Uh, that doesn't bother me, but the gambling thing. Yeah. Yeah, that's not my thing

[15:11] Speaker 2: So, so you didn't, uh, you didn't, uh, bet on the, uh, uh, on the horse race?

[15:16] Speaker 1: No, no. No, they want me to st- Because we had a good time, they wanted, they wanted us to go to the track now with them and start... Just for... Even if you don't wanna gamble, go to the track and stuff. But, you know, he, he... I mean, God bless them, they don't get it, but being, being around people that are just, you know, gambling, i- it's like... To me, it's like being aro- around a bunch of people that are smoking marijuana and it's just not my thing, but I don't wanna be around people that are doing it, you know? It's the same thing with the gambling. I just don't wanna... I'm not faulting those people. I just... It's just not my thing, and I just don't enjoy being around people that are, you know... That's the thing, you know. I just, I just, I just don't like it.

[15:53] Speaker 2: I, I always... I try to behave when I'm around you because I, I don't wanna be a bad influence.

[15:58] Speaker 1: (laughs) So, I mean... I don't know if what I just said makes any sense to people, but, uh, but it's just... You know, my wife hates it when I say, "It's just the way that I'm built." And she hates it when I say that, because she thinks it's like an excuse for a lot of my faults. And I, I probably do try to play it off as an excuse for just, you know... We're out and someone says something to me and I... you know. And I, I try not to be too political around people, but I can't help it, you know. So I, uh... A- and my... You know, you get, you get less patience as you get older, and you become... It, it's... It gets a lot easier to say the word no, uh, so, uh... You know what... I know you know what I'm talking about, so, you know.

[16:35] Speaker 2: You do you, bud.

[16:37] Speaker 1: (laughs) All right. So, so if you're ready, let's move on to our next one. I, I know that we were holding onto that one that, that, uh, you wanted to cover. So, uh, uh, let me find that. Here it is. The... Oh, the Riverside Police Chief fires three officers who had disabled military veteran license plates. So I wanna talk about that. I, I did see... I did wanna give Brian Beaman a shout-out on Facebook. He's... I think he's new to the show. And he's, he's throwing us out a, uh, you know, "Hi, guys." So, uh, Brian, welcome to the show. I'd love to find out how you heard about us, but welcome to the show. Thanks for watching on the stream. He's on Facebook. Uh, but moving back to this update here, um, msn.com, Riverside Police Chief fires three officers who had disabled military veteran license plates. Wow. Um, some questions a- and not a lot of answers. Uh, the three Riverside patrol officers, they had disabled military veteran license plates on their personal vehicles. All right?

[17:29] Speaker 1: So, guy, everybody listening. Not their work cars. You know, that's the, that's... The city, the county have the... The state, they have those tags. But their personal vehicles, um, they had this veteran license plate... Well, I should say disabled military veteran license plates on their personal cars. They were fired on Tuesday, April the 28th, according to Police Chief Larry Gonzales. Again, this is Riverside, California Police Department. The officers, uh, Timothy Popplewell, Raymond Olivarez, and Richard Cranford, they were given notices of intent to terminate back on February the 25th. And of course, it happened on April the 28th. They appeared on April the 21st, so one week before they got fired, at what is known as a Skelly hearing, where they were allowed to argue against termination to Chief Gonzales. Now, I, I, for one, was not familiar with the term a Skelly hearing-...

[18:18] Speaker 1: so I'm curious, Chief, if you are, but Gonzales-

[18:22] Speaker 2: No.

[18:22] Speaker 1: You weren't... No? Okay. So Gonzales, the chief, said that, um, the officers went through the proper process to obtain the license plates, but, "The issue we had," this is the chief talking, was how they got the license plates. "I made the decision after a thorough investigation. It was all based on facts." Now, the chief goes on, he, he, he declined to elaborate. He cited a discrimination lawsuit the officers have filed against the city in connection with the investigation. He also declined to say whether the department offered the officers the option of surrendering their plates to avoid or limit discipline, whi- which I don't know, but I kind of doubt. Um, no other officers in the department had the plates, according to the chief. The plates issued by... Oh, issued in California by the Department of Motor Vehicles. They're provided when a healthcare professional certifies that the veteran has s- now listen to this, guys. This is important.

[19:12] Speaker 1: S- they're certifying that this veteran, who's now a police officer and carrying a gun for a living, has severe mobility issues, has lost the use of a limb, has suffered a permanent blindness, or has been certified as 100% disabled by the US Department of Veteran Affairs. Pretty substantial, right? Popewell, one of the cops, served in the US m- military from 2008 to 2011, so what, three years, like the other two officers, joined the department, the police department in 2019, so about eight years later, and he served in the SWAT team. Um, Oli- Olivarez, the other one, was in the military from 2013 to 2019, and he was in the department's honor guard at the time of the allegation. And Cranford was in the military from 2010 to 2014, and he has also been a SWAT team officer. So interesting. So the VA considers several illnesses and injuries, some obvious, some unseen, in calculating a disability rating, and the condition must have been developed... I- it kind of goes on.

[20:09] Speaker 1: If, if they had it before they went into the military, it had to have been accelerated by the military or shown up after military, that kind of stuff. We're going to dive into this in just a second, guys. We're up for our second commercial break. Stick with us. We'll be right back. All right, it's time to talk about Compliant Technologies at complianttechnologies.com, and they are committed to providing non-lethal solutions to help officers gain the upper hand safely and rapidly in a humane, low optics manner, utilizing what they're calling their CD3. It stands for conductive distraction and de-escalation device technology. Now, their flagship product, we all know by now, is called the Glove. It's not only helped officers tens of thousands of times, but they've actually had over 250,000 deployments, and guess what? No injuries, no deaths. It's an amazing statistic. It's actually helped them achieve non-lethal status in an arena that predominantly can only offer less lethal results.

[20:58] Speaker 1: And when it comes to weapons retention, transitioning to a sidearm or a conductive energy weapon, the Glove at complianttechnologies.com, they have virtually eliminated weapons confusion. So stay ahead of the game with Compliant Technologies and the revolutionary CD3 that hundreds of agencies have already turned to nationwide, and friends, take it from me, when it comes to safety, this is one of the most common sense, hands-on solutions that ever come along. Go to complianttechnologies.com today and tell them that Chip sent you. Welcome back. LEO Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlanc and I'm your host. We're joined by Dr. Joel Schultz, retired police chief, and we left off talking about the Riverside Police Chief who fired three of his officers because they had disabled military veteran license plates on their personal cars, and it's Chief Larry Gonzalez now.

[21:40] Speaker 1: Of course, Riverside, uh, Police Department, they are in the state of California, and we got left off talking about, um, the officers had these disabled tags. We talked about how you have to have some pretty serious stuff going on in order to get that disabled designation, and these guys are... I mean, two of these guys are on the SWAT team. One's on the, uh, uh... one was, uh... one was on the honor guard, which is really not that big of a deal, but you would think SWAT would require quite a bit, uh, more than your average cop may be capable of doing. Um, and, uh, it talks about a lot of preexisting conditions, what you have to do. It talks about, um, anyhow, well, it talks a lo-... I think we've covered enough on the... on, on the story. Um, I know what the... I know how the... I know... Look, I would have an issue seeing a cop with a personal car... personal license plate that said, "I'm a...

[22:29] Speaker 1: you know, I'm a disabled vet," and he's not 100% disabled, you know, but he's got a job working and I'm paying, I'm paying his salary, you know? But Chief Schultz, take it from here. Explain this to us.

[22:39] Speaker 2: Well, I, I got invited by the editor of, uh, uh, my editor, uh, at, at, at PoliceOne, which is a, a, a big internet, uh, uh, newsletter for, for law enforcement, and, uh, she said, "Do you want to do an analysis on this? Because just on our platform, it's, it, it's generating, uh, hundreds of thousands of views on, on the Facebook that, uh, co- that, that reprinted, uh, from... on the PoliceOne site."

[23:06] Speaker 1: Interesting.

[23:07] Speaker 2: Had already over 600 comments on, on Facebook.

[23:10] Speaker 1: Wow.

[23:11] Speaker 2: Um, so my question was, if I were just gonna... if I just read this article in, in... and there's, there's literally two million internet articles posted every day, right? And so to get numbers up towards a million views, I, I just... I... my analysis was, what's the big deal? Why is this attracting so much attention? Um, is it the, uh, the, the specter of stolen valor? Is it the incongruity of having a disabled officer working? Is it, uh, are we picking on these, uh, cops? Uh, was, was the chief just waiting to get rid of them? Um, are they getting due process? Um, a- are... you know, is, is it a sign of widespread corruption? I just... I really don't know what, what the big deal is. It's a department of, uh, uh, fewer than 400, uh, cops in California out of, you know, 758, 800,000 cops across the country. Um, so, so that was my question, and I still don't have that question answered. I think the chief really...

[24:12] Speaker 2: since it has attracted so much attention, I, I think the chief owes the public, uh, not just in, in, uh, Riverside, but, but throughout the country to have an interest in this, to, to be more forthcomping... uh, coming as much as they can. Um, we, we know that in these police cases-... every lawyer says don't say anything. So, the, the officers can't s- comment and the chief can't give m- much more detail because there's internal legal stuff. So, we, we may not know what the real story is until it's no longer newsworthy, you know, some months or years down the line. Um, but it was just... I was just curious why it attracted, um, you know, so much attention. And we know that there are some disabilities. Now, the 100%, if that's correct, I... That is confusing, for sure.

[24:59] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[24:59] Speaker 2: Um, but you guys, um, Chris and I think Scott, uh, Chief Noller and, and Scott were talking about, uh, um-

[25:07] Speaker 1: So, you remember that? Yeah.

[25:08] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. The Tex-

[25:09] Speaker 1: Last week, I believe.

[25:10] Speaker 2: The Texas, the Texas agent who had a PTSD diagnosis and went off, um, on a, on a, uh, a school administration for mistreating adult- his daughter. Um, I know a couple of officers personally that have had a PTSD diagnosis and they got treatment and they returned to service and, and finished out their career, um, you know, very, very well. And, of course, we know that there are officers that have lost limbs that used to be a, you know, throwaways but now, you know, they get rehab, they, they get their new fake leg and they're, you know, they're back on the, uh, back on the trail. So, um, th- (sighs) S- so that's my main comment is, is I wanna know what the rest of the story is.

[25:49] Speaker 2: M- some of our listeners may remember Paul Harvey and had, Had This Daily Show-

[25:54] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[25:54] Speaker 2: ... where he would give a teaser and then he would tell the story, and then he would say, "And that's the rest of the story." We don't really know this story and that, that's what's, that's what's curious to me.

[26:03] Speaker 1: Yeah. It'd be c-... You know, so when you mentioned about the postings and stuff, you said, like, 600 postings, I think, on, on PoliceOne on their-

[26:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Comments on, on the article.

[26:11] Speaker 1: ... on the f-

[26:12] Speaker 2: And I... Which made me jealous because sometimes my article's there and, and there's no comments at all or some snarky, stupid thing.

[26:19] Speaker 1: So, I'm wondering if someone spent the time to go through the articles to, to... A- and, and they not just rated them, but they put them in different classifications like, "Okay, this guy's upset because of the optics. It doesn't look good to have a police officer with a personal tag saying he's 100% disabled and carrying a gun." And then you've got another guy saying that, "Hey, there, it's discrimination against, you know, retired vets that protected our rights and did this," and then you've got somebody else feeling something... You know, I'm kinda curious if, if s-... You would have to spend the time, but I'm wondering if someone did that, were they would, were they would, would they would be able to plot out a, you know, a line, you know, a spreadsheet with, like, where people are at. I'm, I'm kinda curious.

[26:58] Speaker 2: Well, you, you probably could with some, some, uh, some questions about the, uh, uh, base. Um, I'm always disappointed by, uh, the, the comments on the Facebook page of, of PoliceOne, um, for, for a variety of reasons.

[27:16] Speaker 1: What do you mean?

[27:16] Speaker 2: Oh. (sighs) You know, if, if they don't... If... It, it, it... They, they... M- many of them come pre-loaded with a, with a pre-supposition, and if the article doesn't agree with their presep position, pr- supposition, they're, like, all over it. Like... And, and, and I-

[27:32] Speaker 1: Got it.

[27:34] Speaker 2: ... (stutters) not to, not to make this about me, but if they disagree with something I say, it's because, "Oh, you're retired." "You were a chief." "You're small town." "You were a campus cop." "Uh, you're just an educated idiot." It, it... They, they begin immediately the ad hominem arguments that I don't know what I'm talking about, which is, which is sometimes true, but never true on something-

[27:55] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[27:55] Speaker 2: ... that I publish that gets edited and r- reviewed, right? So, so I'm not sure. But, but in, in my article, not to promote it, but, uh, um, I, I think I have, like, five bullet points about theories about why this may have-

[28:08] Speaker 1: Okay.

[28:09] Speaker 2: ... um, may have attracted attention.

[28:11] Speaker 1: Yeah. I find it fascinating. You know, of course... Uh, hey, look, we're, we're just kinda like brain s-... This is the... (laughs) This is what cops do, guys, watching the show and stuff. But, so I can see how you're... the, uh... you're... If you're gonna grab data like what I suggested, reading through all the postings and getting data, I can see how that's ar-... You're, you're starting off and it's already skewed because it's not like you've got a room full of a hundred people and Dr. Schultz presents an article to them and then you get to question every one of them. You're only getting the input from the people that have a mindset that they have something they want to say about it, which might be a vast minority. It may be 10% of the people that actually saw the story, read it, and maybe they're just not in-... you know, the majority of people aren't inclined to say anything, or maybe it's just a, a mindset for people that have an issue.

[28:57] Speaker 1: Only the people that are complaining wanna, you know, wanna post that... make that post, and you're leaving out all the people that are supportive of... you know? So, you're already... In my opinion, you're already skewed unless you can just grab everybody and get their, get their feedback, and you just don't have the capability to do that.

[29:12] Speaker 2: The thing is, also, that, uh... and I did a little research on this, uh, fewer than 20% of people who put eyes on an article actually read the whole thing. So-

[29:23] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[29:23] Speaker 2: And I know from reading some comments, not necessarily in this article, but on other articles that I've written, when I see comments, I see, "Okay. You didn't read past the headline." Um, the average time on page for somebody that's skimming through these two million articles that are, that are out there on every c-

[29:41] Speaker 1: Right.

[29:41] Speaker 2: ... on every type of platform, uh, is about 15 seconds. So, most people are just scanning, they're skipping, they read the headline, they may read the first paragraph and the lap- last paragraph. But, uh, I, I would, I would gen- venture to say that the vast majority of, of, uh, uh, people that, that comment... This is true on all platforms, you know. The, the, the most scary thing that newspapers ever did was to allow people to comment on articles. Um, oh my gosh. Uh, and, and I, I just know from reading comments, comparing it to the content of, of articles, they're not reading the articles or they read it with a chip on their shoulder. So, you know, your, your point that if you, if you did a...

[30:22] Speaker 2: some type of qualitative study of the, uh, e- of the response to some articles, it would not really be a valid, uh, uh, sample population because of-

[30:31] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[30:31] Speaker 2: ... people that come in with some pre-suppositions. And it is just a lesson on...... on being educated. You know, you, you often, uh, boast very rightfully that you want viewers and listeners to this program to be the most informed, uh, audience on these issues that they can be. And so, the, the caution is read past the headline, uh, read the whole content, uh, of anything, and then try to get some perspective besides what you walk into the, the topic with.

[31:02] Speaker 1: You know, I should start doing that too before I pick out stories for the show that we cover, huh. It's a good idea. I'm joking.

[31:08] Speaker 2: Yeah, Chip-

[31:09] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[31:09] Speaker 2: ... 'cause you don't, you don't, you don't do enough research.

[31:12] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[31:13] Speaker 2: You, you, you, you, you need to add that to your daily-

[31:15] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[31:15] Speaker 2: ... uh, activity.

[31:15] Speaker 1: I'll do, I'll do that in my spare time, yeah.

[31:18] Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go.

[31:18] Speaker 1: All right. So, uh, so good, that, you know what? We spent more time talking on th- on that than I, than I anticipated. How, and I had it as the third, as the last update story. However, that just goes to show you, it should've been the number one, and we, it, and it was a, it was a good thing to cover. It was very, uh, you know, I learned a lot, and I, uh, hopefully our listeners did too. So that was, that just, you know, sometimes you just know where, where certain topics are gonna go, so that was great. Um, we got a video. I only got 30 seconds here, um, so I'm gonna whet the appetite here, but rumble.com, our favorite law enforcement video channel called This is Butter, we have Fort Wayne police officer, um, ends up being stabbed, and the suspect fatally shot during a domestic dispute, call it.

[32:00] Speaker 4: He's a big boy, so he just ran through it.

[32:03] Speaker 5: Does the door lock still?

[32:05] Speaker 4: I don't know, I haven't checked it. Let's go, let's go. Ah.

[32:20] Speaker 5: Hey, he's got a knife, he's got a knife. He's got a knife. Watch out, watch out.

[32:22] Speaker 4: Move, move, move.

[32:24] Speaker 5: He's got a knife, he's got a knife. Hey.

[32:27] Speaker 4: Don't you move. Don't you move. He dropped the knife. Don't move. Drop the knife. Don't take it. What? Nice. Drop the knife. Drop the... Ah. I'm here, I'm at, I'm at 853100. 100... Drop the knife. Drop the knife. Drop the knife. Drop the knife, man.

[32:53] Speaker 5: Drop the knife.

[33:01] Speaker 4: Are you hurt?

[33:05] Speaker 5: Yeah, back up. Back up. 154 for one of the Charles cars, 154 stand by. Drop the knife. Drop it. Or what? Drop it. We'll shoot. Drop the knife. Drop it. Help. Drop the knife. Shoot me. Drop it. Shoot me. Drop the knife. Put it away. Drop the knife. Quit... Drop the... (gun firing)

[33:39] Speaker 1: Well, you know these domestics are, they're dangerous. You're about to find out why. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about GunLearn at gunlearn.com. And you know, they're the first and they're the only company to offer a step-by-step program that takes you from your present knowledge level to become, become a safe, accurate, and competent certified firearms specialist. Now, here's the deal. There's something new that's going on, so if you wanna become a certified firearms specialist, or you, if you've already become one, even if it was like five years ago, they have now partnered with Smarter Degree, and through their Smarter Degrees University Partners Program, so now that is worth college credits. That's an amazing achievement. So, kudos to gunlearn.com. And you know, back since 1996, they've taught everything that LEOs, that's law enforcement officers, need to know about firearms and ammunition, to all facets of law enforcement.

[34:28] Speaker 1: And you can start today with online training, or you can register to a- attend a live seminar. And if you have your own agency, if you're a chief or a sheriff, you can actually host a seminar for absolutely no cost. Go to gunlearn.com to get more information, hook up with the founder Dan O'Kelly. Again, that is gunlearn.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I'm your host. We're joined by Dr. Joel Schultz, retired police chief. We left off just kinda whetting the appetite on the Fort Wayne officer that was stabbed, and the suspect fatally shot during a domestic violence dispute. So we're in Fort Wayne, Indiana. The Fort Wayne Police Department, they released this body cam footage. This incident happened on September of 2025, so what, roughly six months ago, uh, the shooting of a guy, um, who stabbed a responding officer. And this got, this goes down fast.

[35:15] Speaker 1: So the shooting happened September the 22nd, 2025, in the North Highland Apartments. Police end up getting a call to the scene. There is a report of a domestic violence situation, a domestic dispute when the officers get there. There's a 33-year-old bad guy, Jacob Lee Leck- Leck- Legansbe, um, and he ended up, um, stabbing an officer. Police fired shots in response, hitting and killing Legansbe. The officer was stabbed multiple times, multiple, and was released from an area hospital following several days of treatment. Now, the officers involved, uh, it, it gives their names. The officer who was injured, though, has not been publicly named out of respect to privacy. They're saying in January, the Allen County Prosecutor's Office ruled that they had found the officers were justified in their use of force.

[35:58] Speaker 1: Going to my show notes, um, you can see that about a minute and 53 seconds in as the officers are talking with a witness in re- in reference to the domestic call involving the suspect, um, who is now inside of an apartment. You, you've got a narrow apartment housing complex. They're on the inside stairwell, or the inside, uh, hallway, tight quarters, and you've got the officer wearing... I, I don't mean to laugh 'cause this officer ends up getting stabbed, but this officer's wearing a body cam, and we're just picking up the cops talking to the complainant. And all of a sudden, the door to the officer's right, and I thought it was a female officer just from the, from the voice, but it might've been because, it might've been a little octave higher because of what was getting ready to go down.... bad guy, and, and, and this officer's standing right outside the door, so maybe, in hindsight, maybe he should not have done that. Guy opens up the door, comes out with a knife.

[36:46] Speaker 1: They do a freeze frame to show this huge knife in the guy's hand, and then he just starts stabbing the officer. Now, the officer and the bad guy go down, so, so I'm assuming it was the same officer that ends up on top of the bad guy, because now we got body cam of other officers. It, it... you know, this, this officer is a decent-sized officer on top of the bad guy, but then seconds later, someone yells, "The guy's got a knife." So I, I suspect they didn't know initially that the dude had a knife, or maybe the officer didn't... may not have even known that he was being stabbed. I know that one officer had looked like he kind of pulled the, the other officer off the bad guy so they could get a line of sight to shoot the dude if he wanted to accelerate, you know, this confrontation and stuff. And, uh, bad guy comes around the corner, got the knife in his hand, and it's like this, this standoff. The O.K. Corral, right?

[37:30] Speaker 1: And then finally, he just starts walking towards the officer, advancing on them. Oh, and also, while this is going on, blood all over the r- the, the, the wall on the right-hand side, so the officer, um, I believe who would end up getting stabbed was bleeding everywhere. There's just b- blood everywhere. And they, they end up, uh, you know, shooting and killing the, uh, the bad guy. Um, Chief Schultz?

[37:50] Speaker 2: There are a lot of lessons that, that cops need to know about and civilians need to understand about the danger of, uh, edged weapons. Um, distance is typically your friend, but you don't always have the luxury of distance, uh, and these officers were at the typical, you know, a- apartment doorway, um. We need to be very careful about the way we position ourselves with a partner on a, on a doorway. Um, you wanna have maximum visibility when the door gets open, uh, but you also don't want to get in a crossfire situation where, you know, you're either right behind somebody, a, a, a brother officer that might get hit, or that you're right across from a brother officer. So it gets, it gets kinda complicated, and we look at a lot of these things and we think, "Well, these guys are acting awful casual," you know, and I'm, I'm not sure that that's particularly true in this case, um, that the...

[38:45] Speaker 2: but again, the civilian observers might look at that and say, "Well, you know, why..." Well, I'll tell you, you know, how many DVs did they, did they respond to that day, and how many DVs do they get to, uh, you know, within 60 seconds of the call so that it's still in progress? So, so nothing's routine, and yet this was probably a, a, a fairly routine, um, routine thing. I, the only critique I would really have is that they were giving conflict, uh, commands, because you have one officer saying, "Don't move," then you have the other officer saying, "Drop the knife." Well, which one do you do? Um, my, my, uh, my daughter who works with, um, not neurotypical, uh, people, um, i- uh, she has a, a, uh, an acronym called WAIT, W-A-I-T, and what that stands for is, why am I talking? And am I really accomplishing anything or not, or should I, you know, either, either back away or should I take some action because, um...

[39:49] Speaker 2: and, and I see a lot of these officers and I, and I s- and I hear some critique from s- from some of the panelists that you have on, um, why do they keep saying to do something when it's very clear that they're not going to do it? Is it performance art for the body cam? Uh, is it, uh, uh, uh, a reflex out of fear? (laughs) I don't know. Doesn't take much of a knife to kill somebody. Your heart, um, is not very far down in the chest, and, uh, the... you can never, if you're, if you're... you know, aut- autopsies I've been to, you can't tell how long the knife is based on the depth of the wound because there's so much elasticity, so again, just for the, uh, for the uninformed, knives are super, super dangerous. And they can be thrown, too, so they, they, they stay a weapon even if you're, uh, got a little bit of, uh, distance on you. Um, so I...

[40:41] Speaker 2: and, you know, you mentioned the officer may not have known that he'd been cut, and that is, that is very common to get a, uh, an incision, uh, injury from a sharp weapon when you are in an adrenaline, uh, pump stage and not know that you've been hurt. That's even true of, you know, that's, that's why I, I think standard protocol, and it is in many agencies, is if, if you're involved in a shootout, um, you get a medical examination, because you could be shot and not know it or have some other injury and not know it. So, uh, it, it's, uh, very unfortunate that the, uh, awareness of the officers of the presence of the knife was too late for this officer to be, uh, um, to prevent getting cut. And, uh, you know, it, it... uh, the- these cuts can be... I- I'd be curious to see what the extent of that injury is. It can be disabling. Uh, you cut some, some vessels and tendons and nerve endings that, um, really could result in a, uh... you know, it's just...

[41:43] Speaker 2: it's not like the old Monty Python where it's just a flesh wound and then you can walk away. It, it could be really something. It could, could be a, a career-ender. So, um, the, the only other thing that I would say about this, and I probably said more than I know already, um, why do so many officers wait? They're getting advanced on, um, other people are at risk, they have limited space in which to move, and yet they

[42:10] Speaker 1: You got a guy bleeding out. (laughs)

[42:11] Speaker 2: ... I understand... I... yes, exactly. I understand hesitating to take somebody's life, and thank God most, most police officers, that's the last thing they want to do, um, but there, there's a, there's a line that, that needs to be much closer to the, uh, aggressor and the adversary, um, that, that a lot of officers let get way too close to them.

[42:34] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[42:34] Speaker 2: And I think that was the case here.

[42:37] Speaker 1: So, Dr. Schultz, I understand that you have s- you're some-... what of an authority on, on knife cuts and stuff like that. Um, is there any scars that you would like to share with us to... so we could kind of, like, put in perspective what you described to us? (laughs)

[42:52] Speaker 2: No. But I tell you, the closest I ever came, I've never had to discharge my firearm on duty, but the closest I ever came, I had fess- uh, pressure on the, on the trigger, um, was, was a guy with a knife. And I had mentally drawn a line between me and him on the carpet in the front of the living room. And, uh, we had knocked on the door on a, on a disturbance call. Um, the, the wife, uh, answered the door, opened the door just a little bit. I stuck my foot in the door. Uh, you know, you, you, you don't want to be locked out when there's a dangerous person with other potential victims. If it's a dangerous person, you know that they're the only one in the place, l- let him, let him stew inside the building. Um, but I walked in. Um, he was coming around. He'd just gotten a machete for his birthday, so he was drunk with a new wife... with a new knife. And he was advancing slowly, but he was advancing. And I was... uh, he had, he had about crossed the line.

[43:50] Speaker 2: I had about pulled the trigger, and then his three-year-old daughter toddled out from the b- the bedroom in the back.

[43:55] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[43:56] Speaker 2: And all of a sudden, I didn't have a, a safe background. So, um, anyway, I, I won't tell you the details of the story, but it was a, it was a happy ending.

[44:04] Speaker 1: Huh.

[44:04] Speaker 2: We got him cuffed up and everybody was safe.

[44:07] Speaker 1: All right.

[44:07] Speaker 2: But, but do I have scars? Mental, yes. Physical, no.

[44:11] Speaker 1: Well, uh, you know what? And I start... I'm glad you told the story, but I was actually referring to the, uh... I sent you a knife. We had a, we had a, a knife, uh, sponsor, and I sent you a really sharp-

[44:20] Speaker 2: That's not even, that's not even fair. That's not even fair.

[44:23] Speaker 1: I sent you a really sharp knife and, and then days later, I get a photograph from Chief Schultz (laughs) with a laceration to his, to his... on his hand or his finger or something because it was really, it was really a sharp knife. So, yeah.

[44:37] Speaker 2: Well, why didn't you tell me that instead of having me go through this flashback PTSD moment?

[44:42] Speaker 1: (laughs) Well, I, I... (laughs) I'm sorry about the P- Sorry about having to relive the PTSD, but I found the story quite entertaining and fascinating. So, thank you for sharing that with us. Uh, uh, guys, we are at, we are at the, at the end of it. So, uh, look, thank you so much to Dr. Joel Schultz for being here on our last day on Westwood One. George, Westwood One, another shout-out to George. And, uh, guys, I wanna mention the Wounded Blue at the woundedblue.org. Please consider supporting them. And don't forget, we have the new Leo Affairs at leoaffairs.ch. A shout-out to our sponsors again, guys. Uh, gulls.com, complianttechnologies.com, gunlearn.com, America Life, Safeway Recruiting, and twobells.com. Discount code Gulls Radio 15. We'll see you tomorrow, 12:00 noon Eastern.

[45:22] Speaker 1: (rock music plays)