[00:13] Speaker 1: Welcome to Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. My name is Chip The Block, and I'm your host. We're a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a law enforcement perspective. And let me introduce the crew. Guys, I hope you don't mind waiting for the video portion of our show. He's back, Sheriff Mark Crider, all the way from Walla Walla County in Washington State, so thanks for being back, Sheriff. Also, Dr. Travis Yates, retired police major from the Tulsa Police Department. And our sponsors, you know, our satellite sponsors, gulls@gulls.com, also Comply Technology is our satellite sponsor. U- And we have gunlearn.com, mymedicare.live, safeguardrecruiting.com, our streaming sponsor. And if you have an agency and you need people to get you, uh... If you need someone to help you get quality people on, uh, the right way so that you can retain them and they'll stay, safeguardrecruiting.com.

[00:57] Speaker 1: They also are allowing us to stream to over a million people right now during the live show. And twobells.com, they built a new online store at leoroundtable.com. If you want to go to our online store, uh, you can buy cool gear like the shirt that I'm wearing, the coffee mug behind me. We got clothes, hats, all kinds of stuff. Um, so check that out. And also a shout-out to Bryan Burns for the Tampa Free Press at tampafp.com. Thanks for carrying our content, Bryan. We have also Reid Deidra with formerlawman.com. And then, yes, Travis Yates, our own, with lawofficer.com. Thanks to all those entities for helping make this show happen. And now what in the world are we gonna be talking about today? You know, we've got a couple main stories, uh, main topics that we're gonna be talking about. We have Alabama Supreme Court says that police can demand an ID during investigative stops. I thought that was interesting. And they also were citing language from the US Supreme Court.

[01:45] Speaker 1: We've got Las Vegas police and a judge are clashing over a 35-time arrestee's release, and this is an issue of public safety, they say. However, if you read through the article, you'll find out that we have a sheriff involved in this too, so it's not just, uh, Las Vegas metro. Then we got the Iranian women soccer players, uh, that were, um, defecting. Uh, not so fast. Family members have started to disappear in Iran, so almost all of them are going back. And we've also got body cam showing a deputy trying to help a guy in crisis before there's a fatal shooting. We got another body cam showing Newark police officer firing five shots into a minivan and killing the driver. Uh, we got Minnesota fallout, the senior border patrol chief, Greg Bovino, he's calling it quits.

[02:32] Speaker 1: And, um, there may be some speculation on part of that 'cause he is really at his 30-year career anyhow, so I don't know how much of that is, is, is, is really, uh, uh, ye- just, uh, best guess or whether he's just timed out. We got a 2023 video. Um, it's a shootout between a murder suspect and Pierce County deputies. And then lastly, grand jury indicts a former US Marine, uh, intelligence analyst. And they did that because he willfully transmitted national defense information to none other than China. And so, yeah, those stories are getting a little bit, um, too frequent. So if you guys are ready, let's jump to Alabama, msn.com. Alabama Supreme Court says that police can demand ID during investigative stops. You know, there's a lot of smaller agencies that really don't get this information e- except for, you know, shows like ours. And this one's, we're talking about Montgomery, Alabama.

[03:23] Speaker 1: So the, um, the Alabama, the Supreme Court, they ruled on Friday that police officers there, at least in the state of Alabama, uh, that they can demand physical ID from a person during a lawful investigative stop if the person does not adequately identify themselves when asked. And so that's the key. They have to adequately identify themselves. Now, the decision comes from a case called Jennings versus Smith. The court answered a question certified by the judge, and it was a federal judge, about how Alabama stop and identity laws should be interpreted, and here's a quote. Um, and they're referring to the US Supreme Court's framework for investigative stops, and they say, "Obtaining a person's identity is a crucial part of a Terry stop," and that's what the court wrote. And of course, those investigative stops are based upon reasonable suspicion. You don't need probable cause, which is what you need to make an arrest, but you just need reasonable, reasonable, uh, suspicion.

[04:14] Speaker 1: And so, um, we've got the justice said, "Nothing in the state's law, language or legislative history indicates that the legislature intended to prohibit officers from requesting proof of identity, uh, when necessary to confirm the information that he's actually providing the law enforcement." Now, the court concluded that if a person fails to provide sufficient ID or, you know, or to identify themselves during a lawful stop, now the officer can either arrest the person for interfering with a governmental function or seek additional identifying information including physical ID. So there you have it. Travis Yates.

[04:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought this was pretty much settled with the Supreme Court, and that's what this case is referring to, out there referring up to a Supreme Court decision. I think the bigger question, this shouldn't surprise anybody, but the bigger question is, is if the driver is the, uh, person under detention, under investigation, what does, can the passenger do? And it's my understanding that you can't necessarily mandate an ID from a passenger if there's, if they're not subject to any investigation. But oftentimes in a vehicle stop, they will be. But that's, that's more the controversy that I've seen across the country is, is someone not affiliated with that original investigation stop have to give an ID. Well, if they're pulled in the investigation, they would. But, uh, yeah, I don't think this surprises anybody. They wrote the state law to comply with the Supreme Court law, and it just got challenged and just got upheld.

[05:31] Speaker 2: So, uh, it's amazing to me how many people think that they can be investigated by law enforcement but they can refuse to give ID or they refuse to give their name. And of course, this talk about ID today, isn't that interesting, right? You kind of have to have a way to prove who you are even when just talking to law enforcement, more or less other things.

[05:48] Speaker 1: Now they do have some states who say that you gotta hand over your ID when you're stopped, period. If you're, if you're asked for it, boom, you have to give it right away. Um, but I know that's not common around, you know, around the country, so.

[05:58] Speaker 2: Well, and that's the key, when you're stopped, right? When you're stopped-

[06:01] Speaker 1: Correct.

[06:01] Speaker 2: ... and there's, there's a reasonable suspicion of why you're being stopped.... it's not like cops can just randomly walk up to people and say, "Give me your ID." So, unless there's-

[06:08] Speaker 1: Well, you can. You can ask. (laughs)

[06:10] Speaker 2: Unless there's, unless there's a suspicion-

[06:12] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[06:12] Speaker 2: ... uh, that there's a crime being committed, which, when you hear, I hate to refer this over to what ICE has been doing, but yeah. ICE has reasonable suspicion that you're not in this country, they can rightfully ask for your ID. I mean, that's, that's nothing new in law enforcement.

[06:25] Speaker 1: Hm. And, and, uh, Sheriff, the policy over in the state of Washington, um, i- if, uh, as far as ID goes, do they have any state law requiring ... And I, I suspect that they probably don't in the state of Washington.

[06:38] Speaker 3: Uh, they do if ... But you have to have a, a ... Either a reasonable suspicion or you have to have a, a lawful stop. So, no different than anybody else. If you're-

[06:50] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[06:50] Speaker 3: ... you know, if you're detained under Terry, you're, you're ... You have to identify yourself.

[06:57] Speaker 1: All right. So, uh, anyhow, that's the, uh, the latest and the greatest, guys. So, anybody with a small little agency that just is, uh, following things or just not sure on Terry stops or what you can do if someone doesn't satisfy the request to identify themselves, at least, uh, just a little reminder that, um, there's no statute saying that in those, in a ... during a Terry stop, that they don't have to identify themselves and that they can keep, you know, their identity hidden. So, um, moving along, and that was a quick one. Uh, the next one we've got, uh, it's 8newsnow.com. We're gonna pop over to Las Vegas. Um, the police and the judge are clashing over an arrest he's released. This guy's been popped 35 times. And th- they're saying that it's an abuse of public safety, but I'll let you guys decide.

[07:43] Speaker 1: So, it starts off in Las Vegas, and so unless I'm reading this wrong, it, it really makes it sound like Las Vegas Metro Police Department is, is having a powwow, you know, with the judge. Uh, but now at the very end of the article, they bring the sheriff in, and it sounds like it's really the sheriff is the nexus on this thing. So, a Nevada Supreme Court, so we got another state supreme court, they're putting Las Vegas Metro Police and the Las Vegas Justice Court at odds over who has authority to declare a defendant is too dangerous to be released. So you've got a judge feeling one way and, um, and the other end of the feeling something different. But now we have a sheriff too, and I'll bring him up at the end. So attorneys for Metro, which is the police department, they filed a petition on Monday after Las Vegas Justice Court Judge Eric Goodman, he ordered a bad guy, Joshua Sanchez Lopez, he ordered him to be released into Las Vegas Metro's electronic monitoring program.

[08:35] Speaker 1: So he wants him wearing an ankle bracelet, right? And our bad guy, 36-years-old convicted felon who most recently served prison time on drug and involuntary manslaughter charges, so bonafide bad guy, and that's according to court records. And the agency said that his record includes 35 arrests. And here's a quote from Mike Dickerson, he's the, uh, assistant general counsel at the police agency saying, "Hey, we have to take a look at that and say, uh, is this somebody who our electronic supervisor, or supervision program can actually monitor safely in the community?" And this is after they got the judge's order. The program allows defendants to leave jail, they wear an ankle bracelet, and various levels of the program require different levels of confinement, uh, which I found interesting 'cause it's not just, like, one level. The judge ordered Sanchez Lopez, our bad guy, to high-level electronic monitoring, which Dickerson, our, our general counsel, described as house arrest.

[09:28] Speaker 1: About 450 defendants are in the program at a time. Now on January the 29th, the agency, Metro, they informed the judge that it was declining to release this guy to the program the judge ordered his release to. They cited prior bench warrants, failures to appear in court, and violations of the department's program. And in the letter, Metro continued to point out a 2020 arrest where they said that our bad guy, the same bad guy, he ran from the cops, he's armed with a gun when he's running away. He later posted it on Snapchat showing that he was wearing a ankle monitor at the time and he was saying that he got chased again. And, um, on February 5th, the judge ordered the agency to release him to the program, adding that the department could be sanctioned for contempt e- if it failed to comply. So now it's getting kinda tough. Metro believes the state law, um, i- that it gives approval to the sheriff.

[10:18] Speaker 1: The court said that Sanchez, uh, his public defender said that the decision's up to the judge, so the public defender's backing up the judge. And, uh, s- the public defender, well, he just says the Metro's argument is completely wrong. The public defender is P. David Westbrook. And, uh, the judge later released him to a pre-trial release program. It's another form of GPS monitoring. But let's, let's drop down to the public information statement, um, from Metro. This is from the agency. This is where the sheriff comes in. On Monday, March the 9th, 2026, Las Vegas Metro Police Department filed a petition with the Nevada Supreme Court asking for a writ of prohibition against the Justice Court of the Las Vegas Township. And this is where the agency's asking for the Justice Court to stop trying to force Clark County Sheriff's Office Sheriff Kevin McMahill to violate his statutory duty.

[11:05] Speaker 1: The Justice Court is threatening contempt proceedings against the sheriff for not releasing a pre-trial detainee, um, to Las Vegas Metro's electronic supervision program even though the sheriff determined that that supervision of that individual would pose an unreasonable risk to public safety and he communicated his determination to the Justice Court. So, that's where the sheriff gets, you know, tied into that. There's some other stuff in there, but that's pretty much the nuts and bolts of it. Um, guys, we are, like, 30 seconds away from a, from a hard break, so, uh, if you guys wanna hold that thought, uh, when we come back, we'll weigh in. I'll have the, uh, Sheriff Mark Freiter go first, if you don't mind, on this one. But commercial break, guys. We're gonna be talking about Galls and giving out that radio code so you can get that discount code, you can get 15% off. Stick with us. We'll be right back.

[11:48] Speaker 4: (instrumental music plays) My family only cares about one thing: that I come home safe.

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[12:48] Speaker 1: Welcome to LEO Roundtable, LEORoundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I'm your host. And, uh, we've got Sheriff Mark Kreider on the show. We've also got Dr. Travis Yates, retired police major from Tulsa. And we've been talking about an interesting story that we're getting ready to... I just went through it, but Las Vegas Police, and a judge, and a sheriff were clashing over a, uh, arrestee. He's been arrested at least 35 times, and they, the sheriff's office apparently, and the Las Vegas Metro believe that this guy is a risk to public safety. But we have a judge order him released, at least on a, you know, with a, uh, ankle bracelet, at least, anyhow. Sheriff Mark Kreider?

[13:27] Speaker 7: Yeah. Uh, my guess is, the reason that the sheriff is involved in this is because the sheriff runs the jail. Um, we kind of have the same, uh, policies (laughs) in the state of Washington. Uh, a- and, and Dr. Yates can probably speak to this, uh, better than I can, but, uh, you know, what I see is, we keep releasing, uh, these criminals back into the community. And each time we do that, they get bolder and bolder and bolder in what they think they can get away with without being, uh, incarcerated. And I can tell you, in the state of Washington, we had a guy that, uh, cranked off s- seven to nine rounds on the main street, shooting a guy. Uh, didn't kill him, and the judge released him on an ankle mon- monitor into the state of Oregon, if you can believe that. So, you know, he's up for Washington state charges. You release him into another jurisdiction. Um, I gotta believe there's some, you know, uh, some problems with that, going into another state.

[14:35] Speaker 7: He ends up cutting his ankle monitor off, gets into a high-speed chase, and, uh, ends up crashing in the state of Washington and kills himself. But, um, you know, that... We can all say, "Oh, well, that's great, the bad guy's dead." But, h- had it not been for the judge's decisions, that young man would be alive and incarcerated, and possibly rehabilitated, and gone on to do, you know, something with his life down the road. So, uh, I think these policies are just horrendous. And if, if we're gonna arrest people for crimes, they need to be incarcerated. Yeah. There's been some publicity about this. But, I mean, it is true that a very, very small percentage of people commit the majority of crime. You know, that's why, in the '90s, when we saw sort of the focus on keeping people locked up, we saw dips in crime that broke records. I mean, it's just absolutely true. But the problem is, is politics and this, you know, reformed justice system has clashed with that common sense. And...

[15:36] Speaker 7: But what's nuts is, it's not three strikes you're out, or four strikes. I mean, these people are being arrested dozens of times for violent crimes, and they continue to be on the streets, and there's just no accountability for these judges. They have, they have ultimate immunity. You know, where there's big talk about, should officers have qualified immunity? Well, that means they have to qualify for it. These judges have absolute immunity. They can do whatever they want to do, and they're not held accountable. And if you don't give someone an incentive to act right, they're gonna keep doing this, uh, 'cause it's all political. And I don't know if, if that gains them votes, I have no idea of this mindset, but they're putting activists in robes, and this is what we end up getting. And it's not just in Washington or Nevada. I mean, this is across the country, you see pockets of this. I mean, every day, in...

[16:23] Speaker 7: you follow the news shift, you see these articles come across where, uh, this guy did this, and the guy did that, and the judge lets him out. I mean, it is constant and ongoing. And I just think the communities don't understand it. Like, it's hard to pay attention to why this person's out, but I think, from a law enforcement perspective, every agency in the country, every leader needs to start really speaking out about this. Because law enforcement takes the hit when this stuff happens, and it's not law enforcement's fault.

[16:47] Speaker 7: They're doing their job, but the system is broken past them

[16:51] Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, you're right. When we, when it's time to go to the, to the polls and vote, we don't remember. We just don't know what judge has done what. And I mean, it's just like people do the Christmas tree thing on the ballot, right? 'Cause they can't remember what judges, who's been there before, who's the incumbent. They can't remember anything. And, uh, yeah, these guys stay in power, they stay in office, and...

[17:12] Speaker 7: Yup.

[17:13] Speaker 1: And that's when we're voting for, the people that showed up to vote, so good point. Anything else, gentlemen? Are you guys ready to move on to our, to our next one? We've got, uh, you know, let me just bring up the, um, the Iranian women's soccer players that were... And I, I don't want to spend a lot of time on it, but it's... I, I kind, I kind of find it interesting that, you know, we're dealing with a country with Iran that doesn't behave like most other people do, or people that we're used to here in the States. These people have a different motivation. They've grown up differently. And, um, and, and, and what seems reasonable for people that we normally deal with, you're dealing with people just don't have that capacity. They don't think like we do. They don't behave like... They're not, uh, incentivized like we, like we are. Um, and so these Irani- the Iranian women's soccer team, and this is from humanevents.com. Um, you know, they're...

[18:01] Speaker 1: Well, they're playing a national, uh, tournament in Australia, and the... I guess the latest is, we've got, um, Zahara Grinvari, 34 years old. She's the captain of the team. Now, she was gonna seek asylum in Australia, but when family members started disappearing in Iran, because they, they're face, they're facing extreme pressure, just like the other one, Shiva Amini, um, she's decided to go back home.Now, I don't know what's gonna happen to her when she does but, um, I think we've got one that ended up staying and they were playing in the Women's Asian Cup. Um, but after the Ayatollah- Ayatollah got, you know, killed and this, you know, this war started, it's put a lot of pressure on them. So I kind of found it interesting that family members have started disappearing in Iran and that almost all of these female soccer players are abandoning now, um, staying in Australia or coming to the US and they're gonna go back home.

[18:53] Speaker 1: Any commentary on that or you guys want me to roll over to the next one? All right. So we will roll to the next one. We've gotta up the... Well, actually, let me do this here. Let's, um... We've got, uh, another, uh, story here. We got Minnesota fallout. Our Senior Border Patrol Chief Greg Bovino, he's calling it quits. I know the article's got... They're characterizing some reasons why, but they also mention that he has about 30 years of law enforcement and, and that's when I pulled the plug at 30 years. So I don't know how much of it is, is just speculation or not, but he is of course a high-level Customs and Border Protection, uh, protection official. Recently led that huge immigration, um, sting across the country and ended up in Minneapolis, and he's calling it quits after 30 years and, uh, he's, uh, he's gonna be actually retiring.

[19:43] Speaker 1: Now, um, he did a lot of stuff during the Trump administration and during term number two, Trump 2.0, and he's been to Los Angeles and Chicago doing some fantastic things. Now, there were some things that happened in, uh... starting off in Minneapolis with that Renee Good and then Alex Preddy after that involving ICE and Border Patrol. There's some people trying to make tie-ins with that, um, and I don't know if that's true or not. And I don't know that it really matters, uh, that it is. But, uh, we're just gonna... He's leaving. I think, uh, um, he's done some great work while he's been here and we're gonna need to get a replacement. So that's gonna be an interesting conversation to have. We got a second commercial break coming up though, guys. We'll be right back. All right, guys. Time to talk about Compliant Technologies at complianttechnologies.com.

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[21:07] Speaker 1: And friends, take it from me, when it comes to safety, this is one of the most common sense, hands-on solutions that's ever come along. So go to complianttechnologies.com today and tell them that Chip and Travis sent you. Again, that is complianttechnologies.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip Devlock and I'm your host. We're joined by Dr. Travis Shakes, retired, uh, Tulsa Police major, and we've also got Sheriff Mark Freider from Walla Walla County in Washington State. And we've been talking about the, uh, Senior Border Patrol Chief Greg Bovino calling it quits and retiring. Uh, and, uh, I don't know who we're gonna get to replace him, but, uh, commentary, Sheriff, you wanna start us off?

[21:44] Speaker 3: Y- yeah. Uh, I... Well, I was just at the Western States Sheriff's Association and Kristi Noem, uh, came and addressed this. I believe it was on, on Monday. And, uh, she said, "Hey, I have to leave right afterwards. I have a meeting with the president," and then she got fired. And so, (laughs) kinda, kinda interesting. So I think there's a lot of, a, a lot of flux in Border Patrol right now and kinda how they're gonna do their job over the next, uh, couple of years.

[22:13] Speaker 3: What- what do you guys think-

[22:14] Speaker 8: Most people are happy.

[22:14] Speaker 3: ... about the re- the reaction with the... I know we've got two bad guys that got killed, but I know that there are certain people that don't have a problem with them getting... or, or have a problem with them getting shot and killed and because they're running over... you know, hitting ICE agents with cars or assaulting people. So, um, what do you think about the, the fallout with ICE and Border Patrol because of the two bad guys that got killed? I, I think it was 100% avoidable. Uh, I think Tom Homan, uh, finally, uh, put it out there in the public that none of this would happen and this is orchestrated by sanctuary policies where they don't cooperate with ICE and you, you, you've already have, um, these individuals that are in the country illegally. You have them in custody for violation of a state law. W- l- local... State and local officers are not picking them up for immigration violations.

[23:09] Speaker 3: We're picking them up for violations of state, state law and they're already in custody and we could do a safe and secure transfer of prisoners in custody, um, with no muss, no fuss. You'd use a lot less ICE agents. You wouldn't need as many ICE agents. They wouldn't be out on the street. They wouldn't be picking up, uh... You know, the big thing now is, well, uh, 70% or 67% of the people that they pick up have no violent history. Well, you wouldn't pick those people up if you weren't showing up at somebody's house that lives with other people that are in the country illegally and have not, not done anything outside of that wrong. Uh, so, uh, the sanctuary policies, I think, are designed to cause this chaos and, uh, and that's a direct result...

[24:00] Speaker 3: The violence that we're seeing with that chaos is a direct result of these policies

[24:06] Speaker 2: Yeah. I can't say that any better. I mean, it's just the truth. And I think most of Americans understand that, right? I mean, when you watch the way it played out in Minne- Min- Minneapolis, I think most Americans with a brain goes, "That's insane that the politicians have released these citizens to go out here and just interfere with the operations of law enforcement." They're all committing a crime. It's called obstruction in every jurisdiction. But, uh, as far as Bovino-I mean, he did 30 years in law enforcement. This is not controversial. You know, you could, you could, you could take everybody that starts in law enforcement career and less than half make it to 20 years and probably less than 15% make it to 30. It's, you know, it starts winding down pretty quick.

[24:46] Speaker 2: So the fact that he made it 30 years with a significant part of those years being under administrations that didn't even let him do his job, he worked through that and got to where he ended up getting to, that's just not controversial. As you, as both of you guys know, I mean, 20 is a milestone in law enforcement. You make it to 30, uh, that's ... And I can just tell you, I should have left earlier than 30. I mean, you start (laughs) you know, it just starts culminating, right?

[25:07] Speaker 2: All the nonsense-

[25:08] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[25:08] Speaker 2: ... you gotta put up with. And so, uh, good for him. Uh, it's unfortunate that politics played such a role in the end of his career, but it played a role in a lot of law enforcement people's career in politics. So, uh, it is what it is. It's not even controversial, but unfortunately, uh, the Democrats are gonna ... The Democrats are insane. Like they're already talking about bringing charges against these people for doing their job. And so unfortunately, Joe Biden set the, set the stage, uh, when he pardoned all these people that weren't even under indictment for like a decade. Trump's gonna have to do the same thing with people in ICE because I have no doubt that Democrats are telling the truth. They will just for years start, you know, trying to indict law enforcement for doing their job. They do it now, by the way, in parts of the country, local law enforcement, they're doing it now. I've been involved in some of those cases. So it's just an insanity. It's unfortunate.

[25:56] Speaker 2: It's a distraction. Our government officials have much more important work to do, but they just refuse to do it.

[26:03] Speaker 1: You know, I, I agree. I, I like the fact that, um, Tom Homan, when he came in, he worked out a deal with the sheriff's offices and they were able to go with one or two guys and grab the guys that were incarcerated. I think, I think Sheriff Krieger is spot on. And I do put, I do ... Well, (laughs) well, there's different levels this has happened at. The, uh, Travis touched on it. So the protesters and the activists that are out there in the street, that's not really a, a necessarily a jail thing, but that's something that it's a local law enforcement responsibility. That's something that the Minneapolis Police Department should have prevented from happening. The, uh, the, the activist, the, uh, the, the hostility.

[26:40] Speaker 1: So now they've gotta come rolling in, ICE has gotta come rolling in with border patrol and people in order to protect them from the crowds that the Minneapolis police is allowing to happen because they're sitting in the police station saying that they're understaffed, but as soon as one of them gets shot because they're hitting a, you know, a ICE or border patrol guy with a car or something, now all of a sudden they've got the manpower to roll out of the station, secure the scene, and start grabbing evidence so they can charge the federal officer, you know, with a crime for protecting himself, which just drives me freaking crazy, which is one of the main reasons, you know, I'm, I'm starting this Lee Walteris back up again because it's just, that's just, there's no excuse. That's just intolerable, so.

[27:17] Speaker 2: Uh, one of the things that people don't know is that you didn't see this under Obama because Minnesota, uh, played ball with Obama's Department of Justice. They, they, they, they didn't have these sanctuary policies. They, the, the, the, ICE could go in during Obama's years and take them out of jail. What changed? Oh, maybe it was the president changed, so maybe this is just all politics and it's ugly and people get hurt and the blame was right on those politicians that made those decisions.

[27:45] Speaker 1: Well, I, I wish, uh, Chief Greg Bavino, um, a happy retirement. I don't know what he's gonna do, um, but, um, I'm even reach out to him and give him something to do. So we'll, we'll see what happens. So, um, if you guys are ready to roll, uh, we've got a story with a video component, and we can take any of these out of order. I think I sent you guys three. So I'm gonna ... Unless, unless you guys want to do something differently, I'll start off with the first one that's in, uh, in, uh, Mesa, Arizona. So rumble.com, our favorite law enforcement video channel called This is Brutter, we had body cams showing a deputy trying to help a guy in crisis before a fatal shooting.

[28:15] Speaker 4: Joseph, hands up, buddy. We just wanna help you. All right? Joseph, come on out. Let me see your hands. You're not a problem. Just come on out, okay? Joseph, come here, buddy. We just wanna help you. Joseph. Look, where are you? Before- Joseph. Joseph, buddy. Come here, man. You're not a problem. .......................... Come on out ... Joseph. Hey. My name's Richard. I just want to help you. Okay? Hands up. Hands up. No, no, no. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. (gunshots) . Stop.

[28:45] Speaker 4: (gunshots And it, it's Maricopa County. Remember Joe Arpaio used to be there? Uh, the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office, they released graphic video on Friday showing when a deputy shot and killed a guy in crisis who was armed with a knife in the Far East Valley, uh, area, and it happened l- in last July. And so they, they say a guy in crisis, but of course we base our actions based off of, you know, other guy's actions. So according to the agency, the deputies get a call out to an apartment complex. It's 11:00 in the evening on July the 27th, and Joseph Cannon is the guy that called 911 saying that he was gonna kill himself and that he's armed with a knife. So when deputies get there, we got body cam video, uh, we got one deputy, um, on body cam, um, and he's, um ... Cannon is near the front door of the apartment. And so the deputy's saying, "Hey, Joseph, hands up, buddy. We just want to help you." And now we got body cam from the second deputy and, um, he, uh, it's showing him going to the trunk of the car to get out the 40 millimeter less lethal launcher. And so he moves to the passenger side of the vehicle, uh, but he's behind the first deputy. And, uh, then Cannon, our bad guy, goes back inside the apartment with the door open and they're asking him to come out with a loudspeaker and, "Hey, come out to us. You're not in trouble." And that's what a third deputy is saying over the loudspeaker. Maybe, maybe too many people talking. Um, and he goes, "Hey, my name's Richard. I just want to help you." Well, uh, well, after that, um, the guy just bolts out of the, uh, out of the doorway and he starts running for the deputies. And the guy with the less lethal is behind the guy, um, that's been talking on the first body cam and, uh, I never really saw a great opportunity for him to be able to fire unrestricted. So they, they lit the guy up. The two other deputies with firearms lit him up.... and they fired, um, one deputy fired between eight and ten rounds, and the third deputy fired his gun as well. And the one with the launcher didn't fire, and our bad guy died at the scene. Um, commentary on that, gentlemen? Whoever wants to take it first. Travis, why don't you start us off on that one, if you don't mind? Which video was that, Chip, again? That is the guy that had a mental crisis, and, uh- Yeah. You know, I mean, you could tell from the very beginning of this that there was... it was going to be very difficult for officers to so-called deescalate that, right? You can tell from his body movements inside, inside the door and the, and his movements. And then unfortunately, at some point, he gave the officers no chance, no choice. There's... It's very difficult to try to avoid using force in that situation. It's tragic because this is obviously a suicide by cop situation from the reactions, but I don't know. I mean, other than there's some net you can throw over them, I'm not sure there's any way to avoid it. It's just unfortunate. You know, the thing... And, you know, Sheriff, I was kind of wondering, if you're going to get le- I mean, I have no problem with, with less lethal, especially when you've got two guys with lethal. The only question I had was, is that pos- the leth- less lethal position himself behind a guy with a gun that... And, and he couldn't... He didn't really have, have time or, or a good enough shot. I mean, it didn't look like it, at least from body cam. And so I just kind of questioned that, but not that they had to go less lethal at all, but... Yeah, we've kind of re-evaluated these calls. Uh, it's not illegal to kill yourself, uh, if there's no threat to the community. Um, unfortunately, what end is... usually ends up happening in these is we respond, we get a response exactly like what you saw in the video, and we end up having to shoot the guy. And unfortunately, you know, nine times out of ten, we kill him. Um, so we, we kind of re-evaluate whether we're even going to respond to that call. If there's nobody in the house and he's no threat to anybody else and he's in the house and he's a threat to himself, that's his business. Uh, we're not going to induce jeopardy, uh, on that call. All right. Going back to break, guys. We'll be back in a second. All right, we're talking about GunLearn at GunLearn.com. You know, as law enforcement officers, we deal with guns and we deal with ammo every day, but it's what we don't know about them that gets us into trouble. Injuries, civil lawsuits, accidental discharges, misidentifications, lost prosecutions, and also disciplinary issues, but GunLearn.com, they have your back. You can quickly become extremely firearm knowledgeable by simply learning 14 training modules from the convenience of your home or your office, or by attending a live seminar at GunLearn.com. You can also become a safe, accurate, and competent certified firearms specialist like our very own Captain Brett Bartlett and also Attorney Ken Onfianco. Now, the course has had huge success in raising the bar of firearm knowledge, and GunLearn has been a trusted source since way back in 2011 by gun manufacturers, federal agencies, forensic organizations, and even police departments nationwide. Now, the founder, Dan O'Kelly's got a deal for you. If you have your own agency, if you're a chief or sheriff, you can actually host a seminar for absolutely no cost. It's an amazing opportunity. You can go to the GunLearn.com to get more information. And again, that is GunLearn.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at LeoRoundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlanc and I'm your host. We're joined by Sheriff Mark Kryder from Walla Walla County, Washington State, and retired Police Major Travis Yates, also AKA Dr. Travis Yates from Tulsa. And, uh, you know, we've been talking about a use of force, a guy in a mental crisis, armed with a knife, though, charged the cops. Uh, but Sheriff Kryder brings up a good point. There are agencies that are re-evaluating around the country now that won't even dispatch, um, to a call like this, because really, uh, the only... i- if he's in a home by himself and he's not at a risk to people other than himself, um, is... can you really justify, you know, sending law enforcement out when so often it ends up with just, you know, shooting... And I don't even want to say necessarily the bad guy in this case, because you got a guy that's not really a bad guy. He's, he's, uh, he's suffering a mental crisis. He may cross that threshold when law enforcement gets there. But then again, when law enforcement gets there and we start doing things like taser and less lethal, I've seen so many videos to where that can cause it to escalate as well instead of deescalate. So, uh, good point, gentlemen. We've got a, uh... If you're ready, we've got a, uh, another story with a video component that, that I... I- it's coming up right next here. It's, uh, in Newark, New Jersey. So rumble.com again. This is Butters the channel. Body cam shows Newark police officer firing five shots into a minivan. Don't fuck with me. Hands off. Hands off that shit. Don't move. Hands behind your back. The guy's standing by himself on the left. I ain't looking, bro. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Hey, yo, don't fucking move. Don't move. Get down. Get down. Get down. Get down on the ground. I'm not laughing because he killed the driver, but I'm just, you know... Every time you, I see a shooting with, involving an occupied vehicle, it always gives me pause because I'm always, you know, because they're, they're under such scrutiny, and that's why I... we just need so much more training when you're shooting at or from a, uh, uh, a moving vehicle, especially, you know, occupied. So Newark, New Jersey authorities releases body worn camera recordings. There's, there's more than one. And radio transmissions from January when a 42-year-old man from Newark was fatally shot by police. He's trying to drive away from the scene where several people were being detained. An officer fired five rounds into the minivan. You can clearly see them across the driver's side of the vehicle. And, um, Newark resident Wally Bae...... was ignoring instructions to keep his hands on the dashboard. So I'm glad they pointed that out because so often in these things, they don't say that, and they make it sound like, you know, this innocent motorist, you know, ended up getting killed by a police officer. Now, Wray's death sparked calls for the termination of Officer Nasheed Reynolds, who fired the fatal shots, and complaints over the lack of an official explanation for what happened. Now, a lawyer that's representing Reynolds, and remember, he's the police officer, previously said that his client's actions were not only legally justified, but wholly warranted and necessary after he and other officers had witnessed several obvious and illegal drug transactions. So here's the way it goes down. Officers, officers from Newark Police, um, and they're, they have a, a quality of life unit. They're doing surveillance, and, uh, on January the 19th, it's o'clock... Uh, it's really 1:09 in the, in the middle of the afternoon, and they see al- alleged drug activity, um, and so I'm assuming it's, it's a drug hold. The officers report descriptions of the cars and the people that were involved, and the suspected activity, and they do that over the radio. And of course, that's letting the cavalry know, "Hey, we're gonna roll in and we're gonna grab these guys." Letting them know who to grab. Unmarked cars and plainclothes officers, as well as uniformed officers, they move in at 1:11 PM, detain two people. Um, and they hold them up against one of the cars and they tell Bae, who's the guy in the driver's seat of the minivan, to put his hands on the dashboard. So all this action is going on right in front of Bae, who's driving the minivan, and he's watching the cops take down these other guys. But they tell him, "Hey. Put your hands on the dash." So, um, Reynolds, uh, the, our officer detains another person against the mar- unmarked police car in front of Bae, and now Bae does what they tell him not to do. He takes his hands off the dashboard, he puts the car in reverse, and he begins to back up. And that's when Officer Reynolds starts running towards the minivan. And 'cause you got police cars all over the place, he doesn't... It, it was, seemed obvious that we didn't know if he was gonna keep backing up, and the cars and the people, whatever. And so then the guy puts the minivan in the drive and our officer's already there at, at the hood. Got his left hand on the hood, and, uh, and our bad guy starts to accelerate. So officer fires his gun five times. Part of that time, the vehicle is going by the officer, which alwa- but we know about that, re- you know, that reactionary, you know, gap. And, uh, Reynolds immediately responded to the car when it drives down a short distance and it crashes. Um, and so Bae, the driver, and the passenger were taken to the hospital. Bae, the driver pronounced dead, the passenger was treated and was later released. So, um, that's the way it went down. Travis Yates? This one was one of these tough ones, right? Because video doesn't always tell the whole story, and it looked like to me, and I watched this several times, that there were, uh, the big concern was there was an officer and potentially another suspect behind the minivan. And when the v- minivan starts to back up, I think actually that, that suspect fell to the ground. And so, um, if you just looked at one angle, you kind of go, "Hm, what's going on here?" But I think totality of this, uh, w- we don't, we actually see everything. I, I, I would love to have seen a video of the officer back the, when the van was backing up towards that officer. So this is one where video doesn't really help us that much. It kind of causes me to kind of go, "Uh, I need to see more." And when you think about it, video is inherently flawed. I mean, you can watch six angles on a NFL game, we don't know whether there was a catch or not, right? So I mean, video doesn't always tell the whole story. I think this is one of those examples. Yeah. Yeah. It, um... You know, anytime you're shooting, there's so much scrutiny shooting at moving vehicles, but, um, but then again, if anybody watching the video, and you wonder why cops end up shooting the side of the vehicle, or you're shooting at a bad guy and you shoot him in the back because he's turning during the charge, it does, it does take... And Travis knows, what is it, like a second and a half by the time you see something. By the time you see it, process it, and then your brain sends a signal to your trigger finger to stop pulling the trigger, that takes time, and it's not instantaneous. And so what he did- And, uh- Go ahead. And I wish people would start with this premise, Chip. A vehicle is a deadly weapon. And I'll prove it to you- No. ... that a vehicle is a deadly weapon. If I hit someone as a law enforcement officer with my vehicle, that's being investigated as deadly force. So it's no different than if a citizen is either attempting or hits a police officer. It's a deadly weapon. But people don't seem to get that, right? But they do get that, because if they got hit with a car, they would be saying it was de- deadly force as well. So if, people just need to understand that. Stop doing this crazy stuff with your cars, and I don't know what it is about minivans. Like, this is why I don't drive one, but people are getting shot like crazy- Yeah. ... in minivans these days. I mean, I know. And I think it's because they have a minivan. I mean if you drive a minivan- Right. ... especially if you don't have six kids, if you have less than six, you, maybe you should be shot. You know, my dad, and I, I miss, my dad's not alive anymore, but my dad loved... He had a minivan. Kids are all grown up, married, out of the house. My dad drove a freaking minivan. And I, I couldn't talk... I said, "Dad, get, d- for the cool factor, please, get a freaking SUV. Stop driving the minivan." He loved this Town & Country, I think they called it, the Town & Country, what, Chrysler or whatever minivan or whatever. I couldn't talk him out of it. So yeah, that's the way, that's the way he rolled. But, uh, uh, but of course, Sheriff, you don't need to be... I mean, it's a deadly weapon, but you don't even need to be in fear of death. A great bodily injury does the trick, and you're completely justified in, in using lethal force, correct? Yeah, and I think Dr. Yates makes a great point. Uh, unfortunately with body cam, you're kind of seeing through a tube, uh, of what you're seeing, whereas the human that's on the scene is seeing the totality of, of the circumstances. So you can't see the individuals behind that, that vehicle. Uh, you can't s- really even see the, in front of the vehicle till he turns a little bit. So you don't get the total picture of what's going on when he makes that decision that he needs to use deadly force in that situation. So, uh, it, I think rightly pointed out by Dr. Yates that, uh, sometimes that body cam gives you a false sense of what's going on in the situation.And, and I will just say as the owner of a Honda Odyssey, uh, best car I ever owned. (laughs)

[42:35] Speaker 5: Well, the Honda Odyssey is an outlier. The Honda Odyssey-

[42:39] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[42:39] Speaker 5: ... isn't really a minivan. It's a glorified SUV. We all know that. I mean, um, I can't afford a Honda Odyssey, but the Town & Country, I could afford three of those, for sure.

[42:49] Speaker 1: Isn't that Odyssey bigger than the Pilot? Isn't that, like, pretty huge?

[42:52] Speaker 5: It's the same as the Pilot, just shaped a little different. So it could, it could classify-

[42:57] Speaker 1: Come on.

[42:57] Speaker 5: ... as a Pilot.

[42:58] Speaker 3: When I-

[42:58] Speaker 1: Is it?

[42:58] Speaker 3: ... when I bought it, it actually, I checked, uh, the specs on it. Had more cargo area than a, a Chevy Suburban.

[43:07] Speaker 1: Shoot. You don't say. Wow.

[43:10] Speaker 3: And it, it was the classic cruiser car, uh, 'cause we would go down for spring break to, uh, Destin, Florida, from Wisconsin every year, and just a phenomenal car to get on the highway and, and head down there with. Uh, headphones in the back seat for the kids. You put the headphones on, put a, put a DVD in.

[43:30] Speaker 5: DVD players in the headrest.

[43:32] Speaker 3: It's quiet for three hours. They could lay down.

[43:35] Speaker 1: Wow.

[43:35] Speaker 3: You could separate them enough when you took the, uh, the middle row seat out, you could put them far enough in the back that they couldn't, uh, annoy you too much when you were driving. It... Uh, I'm telling you, it was the best car I ever owned. I hate to say that.

[43:48] Speaker 1: So if it... If it's got more cargo room than the Chevy Suburban, do you guys think that the Secret Service in doing their dignitary protection's gonna start driving those now instead of the Suburbans? (laughs)

[43:59] Speaker 3: No. Could you imagine

[43:59] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[44:00] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[44:00] Speaker 1: Could you see it now? Oh my gosh. What about the First Lady?

[44:03] Speaker 3: And it, and it is the ultimate, uh, soccer, you know, soccer carpool car.

[44:09] Speaker 1: Who w- who would ever think that the, uh, that uh, that our Secret Service or, or, or maybe a Delta team would become bailing out of that?

[44:15] Speaker 5: Well-

[44:16] Speaker 1: You know?

[44:16] Speaker 5: And you won't find a bad guy driving a Honda Odyssey. We're not shooting any Honda Odysseys up.

[44:21] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[44:21] Speaker 5: Bad guys aren't-

[44:22] Speaker 1: I love it.

[44:22] Speaker 5: ... driving a Honda Odyssey.

[44:25] Speaker 1: All right. That's, that is an excellent point, actually, Travis Shades. So, um, Sheriff Mark Kreider, thank you so much for being on the show, Dr. Travis Shades from Tulsa. Again, thank you guys so much. I do want to mention The Window Blue, thewindowblue.org. Lieutenant, uh, Randy Sutton's 501 (c) (3) , helping cops out in a world of hurt. Travis Shades is on the board of directors. So thanks for what you guys do. I donate monthly to them guys. Please consider doing that. They get to use those monthly. That monthly income helps them make great decisions involving the charity. A shout-out to ballis.com, complianttechnologies.com, all of our sponsors, gunlearner.com, medicare.lifesaverrecruiting, and twobellas.com. We'll see you guys back tomorrow, 12 noon Eastern.

[45:00] Speaker 1: (rock music plays)