[00:13] Speaker 1: Welcome to Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I'm your host, and we're a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a law enforcement perspective. And let me introduce the crew. Guys, if you don't mind waiting for the video portion of the show, I don't know why the sheriff's smiling and laughing. Something must be going on I'm unaware of. But anyhow, yes, we have Sheriff Mark Crider all the way from Walla Walla County in Washington State, so, uh, and, uh, and he grew up in Ohio, not in, not in, not, not in, uh, not in Maryland, just i- in case anybody's wondering. So, thank you, uh, we- welcome to the show, Sheriff. Also, we have, uh, Captain Brett Bartlett, 32 years of exemplary... he likes me to use that word, exemplary... law enforcement experience. So, thank you so much for being on the show. Uh, we have Lieutenant Chuck Springer from LAPD. He has migrated over to Florida, my neck of the woods.

[00:58] Speaker 1: And then finally, a retired Secret Service, Rich, uh, Staropoli. And, uh, I found Rich, he was on the Laura Ingraham Show on Fox News, and I said, "Man, this guy is just so impressive." And, uh, and then they got a new... another guest on, and it was Rich, and I said, "Well, you know, I can't get the first guy, so I'm gonna give Rich a call again." No, Rich, Rich was the guy. He was the impressive guy. I got ahold of Rich, and he couldn't wait to get on the show. So, we're very, uh, we're very lucky and fortunate to have Rich on the show. So, thank you guys so much. A shout-out to our sponsors, you know, our title sponsor is Gulls at gulls.com, complianttechnologies.com, our satellite sponsor. We have gunlearn.com, mymedicare.live, safeguardrecruiting.com, our streaming sponsor, and thanks to them, we're streaming to over a million followers right now on social media during the live show. And finally, twobells.com, they built our new online store at leoroundtable.com.

[01:44] Speaker 1: Go to our website, check out the online store. You can buy cool gear like this shirt that I'm wearing, and the prices are rock bottom. I spend what you guys spend. We don't make a dime off of anything in the store. We're just trying to get our gear out there. So, please check that out. I'll also shout out to Bryan Burns for the Tampa Free Press at tampafb.com. Thanks for carrying our content, Bryan. Ray Dietrich from herelawman.com and Travis Sheets with lawofficer.com, thanks to all those entities for helping make this show happen. What in the world are we gonna be talking about today? Guys, our first story, well, this is a... you... we won't necessarily take this in order, but, but more than likely we will. We have a Tennessee sheriff's deputy who was beaten into a critical condition on live TV show by a suspect that he was, uh, that he was seeking. And, um, and Rich is the one that sent me this one. Thank you, Rich. I'm glad I held onto it for you.

[02:26] Speaker 1: I can't wait to get the input from you on this one. Then we got El Paso police, they released body cam footage of an officer-involved shooting that killed a man and injured an officer. Uh, guys, there's gonna be a lot to critique on this one, not just a left-handed female officer, but the male officer. We're gonna be all over this. And then we got CHP, California Highway Patrol, they're paying $10 million for paralyzing a Salinas man who was high on meth, armed with a gun, pointing it at the cops. I don't know where they found these juries at. This is s- scary stuff. Thank God we're not in California. Uh, may- Chuck, I wanna get some input from you on that one. Harris County deputies fatally shoot a suspect who was armed with a large butcher knife. San Diego officers fatally shoot a guy armed with brass knuckle knife after a chase and a crash.

[03:09] Speaker 1: Polk County deputy resigns after being arrested and stealing cash during a Fort Meade traffic stop, and he had two of his, uh, fellow deputies turn him in. Got no issue with that at all. Oklahoma City police release footage showing what led up to a deadly shooting of a rape suspect. And then, if we have time to get to it, double stabbing and arson suspect fatally shot by Prince George deputy. So, if you guys are ready, put your seat belts on, newyorkpost.com. This came from Rich, uh, Staropoli, Tennessee sheriff's deputy beaten in a critical condition on live TV show by suspect he was seeking.

[03:38] Speaker 2: Oh (beep) . I'm (beep) cramping. (gasps) Ugh. (grunts) I'm fine. (beep) (gasps) (grunts)

[04:03] Speaker 1: You know, Rich, I don't think I ever would've heard about this had you not sent me the article. Um, th- of course, I don't read the New York Post, but, uh, a Tennessee sheriff's deputy was beaten badly on a livestream cop-themed television show by a suspect he's trying to track down, according to the report. So, On Patrol Live, that's the name of the show, captured the harrowing moment on Saturday when Knox, uh, Knox County Sheriff's Office Deputy Dalton Swinger, he gets, uh, knocked into critical condition by a suspect who's named Christopher Hensley. They're in a wooded area. It's a residential part of Knoxville neighborhood, according to Law & Crime. Now, officers are responding to calls of a shooting. Now remember, it's, it's a live TV thing, and the cop's wife is watching, too. Uh, the... calls of a shooting in the neighborhood, and they're looking after Hensley, he's 44 years old, and he drew cops into the dark, wooded area behind a home.

[04:50] Speaker 1: So, our deputy's y- yelling, "Sheriff's office!" into the woods, and then there's a voice from the darkness saying, i- it, there's expletives. He's our bad guy. So, our, um, deputy, uh, Swinger, goes into the thicket and, to try to confront the bad guy, and they believe that he was armed with his own handgun, drawn, and then in the video, our, our deputy, Swinger, falls on his side, limp, as the 44-year-old suspect allegedly struck him in the face with a brick or with a rock. And they say the entire studio, 'cause remember, it's live, that they went silent as they're watching what happens next. So then, the, uh, you know, the troops come in. So, his, his, uh, coworker's drag him to safety, they render aid. He tries to get up, stand to his front, then brush it off, "I'm gonna be heavy," and, uh, we've got a co-host, Tim Riz- Rizzo talking about this on Facebook.

[05:37] Speaker 1: His girlfriend, well, Swinger's girlfriend, she told the news station, WBIR, uh, it was his girlfriend, not his wife, uh, that she was watching when the grievous assault took place. And fellow deputies drag his, uh, body, it was limp, out of the woods, and, uh, they, he attempts to brush off the injury, like I said earlier, uh, but then, when the cameras turned off, he took a turn for the worse. So, they, uh, took him to the Tennessee Medical Center. He remains in con- in the intensive care unit, according to Law & Crime. Knoxville County Sheriff's Office announced that, uh, Swinger's made small strides in his recovery. He's able to move all four of his limbs.But it's, that's still scary, right? Hensley was arrested after the broadcast. He's been charged with attempted second-degree murder, aggravated assault on a first responder, possession of a firearm with intent, uh, to go armed, and manufacturing and delivering selling possession of a controlled substance charge.

[06:24] Speaker 1: And they have a GoFundMe, uh, for the Officer Swinger. They raised over 65 grand, which is a little light, I think. Uh, but I would like to think that the workman's comp, the agency would take care of him, uh, whether or not he fully recovers or not. Of course, we're hoping and praying that he does but, w- you know, they, they hopefully will, will be okay. Um, commentary on this, Jeff or Rich, um, why don't you start us off?

[06:45] Speaker 3: Yeah. I'll, I'll tell you, you know, there are a lot of jobs that are, are conducive to having, you know, camera crews follow you around live, although they may not make for great TV. I just have a problem with, uh, camera crews going out, especially live, with cops that are on patrol, responding to who knows what. Because ultimately, you know, everyone wants to be a star, and I think having that camera crew and the pressure of being on live TV out there with you when you're trying to deal with anything, particularly a guy that just run into the woods who's armed, who's told you he's not coming out, "Come get me," uh, that may have motivated this cop to do something that ordinarily he wouldn't have done, chasing this guy into the woods. And look what happens. He gets hit in the head with a brick, which I think is a good learning point for any cop out there, especially you newer guys that are hitting the gym, you know, 23 and a half hours a day.

[07:33] Speaker 3: I don't care how much you can bench press, I don't care how great of a shot you are, you get hit in the head, even if it stuns you for 15 to 20 seconds, you've given the bad guy an advantage. And the fact that this was carried on live TV I think just, uh, emphasizes my point about what happens if you get hit in the control center, you take a hit in the melon. Right? Th- That led to some bad, bad situation here. It's not a good idea to have cops, uh, running around with live camera crews. You want a live camera crew? Let the police chief or, or, you know, the sergeant who's responding to stuff, let him go out with the camera crew, but not the guys that are responding to stuff on routine patrol. Because this is what happens. It's too much of an influence. It motivates cops to do things that ordinarily I think they would never have done.

[08:17] Speaker 1: That's a great point, Rich. You know, there have been agencies that have stopped working with programs like this that are live, for, for various reasons, uh, but, uh, e- even here locally where Brett and I are at. Um, Chuck Springer.

[08:31] Speaker 4: I think Rich is spot on. You know, aside from that, it, you know, we're a professional, uh, organization. We're, we're not a sporting event. And this is what these live shows really are turning into. It's almost a, a gladiator environment. Uh, you know, can you imagine your wife watching you get shot to death on live TV? I, I, I'm with Rich. Uh, this is, this is unacceptable.

[08:56] Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I don't know about you guys. I, I personally have a hard time watching the, the live TV episodes with co- I can't do it. Um, not, just because, I mean, we've been there, we've done that. But I, I just, I just don't enjoy it. I don't find, I just, I just can't do it. I can't even force myself to do it. So, um, if there's no other commentary... And great points by, by Chuck and Rich. Uh, Chuck, you wanted to throw some final words in?

[09:19] Speaker 4: Uh, just real quick, you know, I, I hope this guy recovers fully and doesn't have any adverse effects, you know. We gotta be, have hi- him in our thoughts and hearts.

[09:29] Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. And Brett, just keep in mind, like what Rich said, all those hours in the gym, they'll do you nothing if you get hit in the melon.

[09:38] Speaker 5: You know, don't hate.

[09:40] Speaker 1: Don't hate. (laughs)

[09:41] Speaker 5: Hate's a four-letter word.

[09:43] Speaker 1: Oh, well, yeah, I think we can squeeze b- that one by FCC. So, uh-

[09:47] Speaker 5: Y- You're just mad 'cause I, I put my water bottle on your head. That's why you're mad.

[09:51] Speaker 1: Hey, I don't have a flat top anymore, so, yeah. Sheriff?

[09:55] Speaker 6: I think all those hours in the gym will help and speed up his recovery. So, make sure you're in tip-top shape in case you do get, uh, do get stabbed, shot, beaten.

[10:08] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

[10:08] Speaker 6: All those things help with the stress.

[10:11] Speaker 1: Yeah. 'T- 'tis true. And, you know, the older you get, as Brett I'm sure will agree with me, even though he probably doesn't know what I'm talking about, um, cardio is king. So as you get older, I mean, you need the strength-based training and that helps with bone density stuff, but, you know, if you get in a fight and you're stamina, you know, you go fast. I don't care what level of conditioning you're on, you, you know, when you're, when you're, when you're in an all-out fight, you get tanked. The bad guy g- does too, unless they're drugged up. But, you know, cardio is so important for cops, that we really don't do enough cardio training. But you gotta be able to last in a fight, so.

[10:43] Speaker 6: I also take exception to sending command staff out on the street. That's dangerous.

[10:48] Speaker 1: (laughs) Do you? (laughs) Oh.

[10:52] Speaker 5: We, we have people for that, Sheriff. We don't need to go out. We have people.

[10:55] Speaker 1: (laughs) All right. Well, gentlemen, we're coming... We're about a minute and a half from our first commercial break. Uh, let me whet the appetite with the next story. It's got a video component as well. Um, rumble.com, our favorite law enforcement video channel called This Is Butter, uh, El Paso Police released body cam footage of an officer-involved shooting that killed two men... or, or they killed a man. We have two officers, though, a male and a female. And one of the officers, the female, ends up getting injured.

[11:18] Speaker 2: Raise your hands. Raise your hands. Ah! (gun firing) Drop it now! (gun firing) On the ground now! Put the gun down. (gun firing) Put it down! Get down, don't move. (gun firing)

[12:19] Speaker 1: Let me just start off by saying that if you're listening to the show audibly, podcast, radio station, please stay loyal to those outlets for bringing you this good quality content. In return for that, we will describe in great detail what's going on so that you don't feel like you're missing out on anything. But if we cover a video that you absolutely have to see, and I will tell you that, um, that these last two are probably ones you're going to want to see, all you have to do is go to our Rumble channel the very next day at nine o'clock in the morning on Eastern Time. Our producer, Will Stacher, he'll take a copy of the live show from the day before, he'll inject every video, uh, that we talk about, and he'll put pictures of the good guys and the bad guys that pop up as you watch that show. So at nine o'clock the next morning on Eastern Time, Tuesday through Saturday, you can watch that version of the show.

[13:00] Speaker 1: So El Paso Police releases body cam footage of the officer-involved shooting. They killed the bad guy, but we got the female officer injured. Uh, stay tuned for that, guys. We got a commercial break coming up, but you do not want to miss this story and you certainly don't want to miss the critique. We'll be right back. (instrumental music) My family only cares about one thing, that I come home safe.

[13:20] Speaker 7: At Guls, every order begins with a promise. Made with purpose. Stitched for support. Back with pride. Answered by dedicated hands. Delivering the standard you have sworn to uphold. We serve more than the mission. We serve the person. Each piece is engineered to help get our first responders through the shift and back home safe.

[14:12] Speaker 1: Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. So look, we left off, we're getting ready to get into the story of El Paso Police. They released body cam footage, an officer-involved shooting that kills the bad guy, but we have, um, two officers, a male and a female. The female gets injured. So what happens? It's in El Paso, Texas. The El Paso Police Department releases body cam footage, officer-involved shooting. It was earlier in the month in the Upper Valley area. Suspect killed, officer shot. So it starts off about 3:15 in the afternoon. It's on June the 1st, and police get called to a family violence incident in progress. Now, it looks like they, um, they, uh, they parked down the street and they're walking, you know, along the roadway towards the house. They, it looked like they parked a, a decent ways away. Uh, when s- when the officers approached the home, a guy becomes visible in the driveway.

[14:59] Speaker 1: He's behind a parked car, later identified as Salvador Valdiviezio, and he approaches the officer, but he's got a gun in his hand and he starts to fire. Um, so both officers return fire, and it says the suspect is stuck ... st- is not, uh, he's not stuck, he's struck (laughs) several times. A little FUBAR there, Sheriff. Um, so look, I'm gonna go ahead and tell you what the article says and then we'll go to the, uh, the show notes. Um, so our g- our guy, so they really kind of leave a lot of stuff out in the article. The bad guy's transported to the hospital, he later dies. The officer, uh, was shot in, in her leg, taken to the hospital for treatment of her injuries. Both officers involved in the incident are two-year members of the force, so they've been with the agency for two years. Doesn't mean they don't have prior law enforcement, but for two years. So when you watch the body cam footage, um, from the get-go, it doesn't take long.

[15:48] Speaker 1: At the 11-second mark, our armed suspect, he comes in the view in the driveway and now the shootout starts. Um, i- i- I immediately note that our female is a lefty and she's shooting one-handed, and it looks to me like she's on the radio while she's shooting left-handed. And we'll, we'll, we'll let you guys talk about that. Both officers remain in the open. Now they're between a parked car that the bad guy came out from behind and he goes in the street and down in the direction they came from. Um, and I'm just thinking, I'm hoping that they locked their cars and didn't have the doors open or anything. But he goes that way, but instead of putting the car, the parked car between them and the bad guy, and there's a s- there's like a low wall as well that's maybe, uh, a foot and a half high that they could have gotten in a prone position, but ... And I know that's easy, the Monday morning quarterback, but they seek no cover, no concealment, no nothing.

[16:39] Speaker 1: They're just in a shooting match and a lot of it shooting one-handed. Um, so during the shooting, and I can, I know this by heart, I can just go from memory. During the shooting, our bad guy comes back, um, in the street towards them. Our male officer that is now stuck between two houses, he turns his back to the bad guy and he's shooting, uh, one handed and he's running away. He's running, uh, and he loses sight of the bad guy. Bad guy is able, um, to go back behind around that car that now the female officer, his partner, is doing a, s- a, a ... I want t- It's not even a tactical reload, but she's doing a reload replacing her magazine in slow motion, totally unaware that the bad guy's coming around the car that she's using as cover. Now, she finally got to a cover point when she switched the mags. Her partner is oblivious to the fact that where this bad guy is and doesn't communicate with her.

[17:28] Speaker 1: So as soon as she gets that new fresh mag in and charges, he's there and she starts, you know, shooting at him. Lot of frantic shooting stuff, but the bad guy does end up going down, but she ends up getting shot in the leg in the process. That's kind of how this goes down as far as the verbiage and all that stuff. But these are two, these are, these are two-year, uh, officers with this particular agency. Um, I, for one, was not impressed with either one. Um, gentlemen, I, I, uh, whoever wants to go first. This is going to be a, we may end up spending some time. Rich, why don't you start us off?

[17:58] Speaker 3: I'll tell you what, after I watched that video, one of the first things that came to my mind was I wa- I would have liked to have been an aluminum siding salesman in that neighborhood because the number of rounds that was fired, where were these things going? What, are you just shooting up the neighborhood? Was there any thought...

[18:12] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[18:13] Speaker 3: That the guy is right in front of you? Yet it doesn't seem like any thought was given to, "Hey, I've got to deal with this guy. Get on it and deal with it." All they did was keep running around this car and kept firing shots to the point where this female officer reloads, what, twice?... and you've got the other officer, he didn't even know this guy was coming up behind him. What happened to the number one rule? You roll into something, pay attention and assess what you've got. Right? Deal with what you've got, and then communicate. This is why I used to tell my guys all the time, and I happen to be left-handed, you know, that, that may be somewhat irrelevant here, but I used to tell my guys all the time, "You better make sure when you get to work, you've got your gear set up so that you can access whatever it is that you name- may need." Because there is no excuse lowering your gun 'cause you've got a radio in your hand. Are you kidding me?

[19:00] Speaker 3: Why didn't you put some forethought into that before that situation developed? Just, uh, what went on here, inexcusable some of these things. But, but listen, it's another good reminder that even if you have two years on the job, or 20 minutes, you never know who's coming out the front door of someone's house. Right? Be prepared for anything. That, that's the cop's motto, regardless of what department you're at, what agency you're at. Wherever you are in the world, anything can happen when you're a cop. And you've got to be prepared. And it just didn't seem like these two were.

[19:30] Speaker 1: Yeah. Sheriff Pryder?

[19:32] Speaker 6: I, I'm gonna, um, I'm gonna take issue with one thing Rich said, just because he's a Secret Service agent, and I ...

[19:38] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[19:38] Speaker 6: ... want to take exception to anything he says. Uh, I would say, have your gear squared away when you roll out of your house. Um, I, I'll tell you a story. Uh, I was back at Quantico teaching a pre-deployment, an overseas pre-deployment class, and we had a couple DEA agents that were in our class. And they landed at National, got their rental car, and on the drive to Quantico, uh, they got into a little, um, fender bender altercation and the guy came out shooting at them, and none of them had their guns on their hips. They were in their bags and all this kind of stuff. Uh, so, be ready to roll and have your mindset set after you finish that cup of coffee and before you walk out the door of your house, because you don't know what's going to happen between your house and the office. Um, you know, the other thing, you know, we talked about it earlier, uh, in the Navy we said, "Aviate, navigate, communicate." Most important thing is keep your airplane flying.

[20:40] Speaker 6: Uh, you don't need to tell people that you're flying. You don't need to tell people that shots have been fired. Get the shots, uh, on target, and get to it. Um, I'm with Chip that, that reload should have taken less than a second, and, uh, it probably took three seconds to get that gun back up and working. (instrumental music plays) And they kept giving up position constantly as the guy was moving. Get to cover, get your shots on target, get both hands on that gun and make good, quality shots.

[21:10] Speaker 1: (instrumental music plays) Thanks, Sheriff. Good points, gentlemen. We will be right back to discuss this. Our second commercial break, we'll be right back. All right. Introducing Compliant Technologies at complianttechnologies.com. And they're committed to providing non-lethal solutions that help officers gain the upper hand safely and rapidly in a humane, low ethics manner, utilizing their CD3, which stands for conductive distraction and de-escalation technology. Their flagship product, we all know by now, is called the Glove. It's helped officers, I was going to say, tens of thousands of times, but now they're up to over 250,000 deployments with absolutely no injuries (laughs) and no deaths. I mean, that's a crazy stat. Um, and, and you heard me correctly, no injuries. They've actually achieved non-lethal status in an arena that predominantly can only offer less lethal results.

[21:52] Speaker 1: And when it comes to weapons retention, transitioning to a sidearm or conductive energy weapon, the Glove at complianttechnologies.com, they virtually eliminated weapons confusion. So, stay ahead of the game with Compliant Technologies and the revolutionary CD3 that hundreds of agencies have already turned to nationwide. And friends, take it from me, when it comes to safety, this is one of the most commonsense, hands-on solutions that's ever come along. So, go to the complianttechnologies.com today and tell them that Chip sent you. Again, that's complianttechnologies.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I'm your host. We have Sheriff Mark Kryder from Walla Walla County, Washington State, uh, retired LAPD Chuck Springer, uh, retired Tampa Police Captain Brett Bartlett, and retired Secret Service, uh, Rich Sciarapoli. Thanks, guys, for being on the show.

[22:34] Speaker 1: We have been talking about a use of force involving a bad guy. It's a, um, domestic disturbance. We have two cops, male and female, approaching from the street. They park down the road, and the bad guy appears in the driveway. He's armed, he starts shooting at them. There's a, a shoot-out. Um, our, our closest person to the bad guy is our female officer, who is shooting one-handed, left-handed, uh, because, uh, i- it appears that she's on the radio with her right hand. Our male officer, um, also engages the bad guy, a lot of sporadic shooting. Um, I don't see really any good convincing two-handed, um, with a good shooting stance, you know, controlled fire. Um, and then our male officer turns his back on the bad guy when the bad guy starts, you know, coming back up the road towards them again, and isn't looking at the bad guy, who now is allowed to go around the car the female officer is, um, using as cover while she does a slow-motion reload.

[23:29] Speaker 1: And by the time she gets the mag in and charges, he appears and, uh, totally surprises her and, uh, and now the shoot-out starts again, and the bad guy ends up going down. She gets shot in the leg. Uh, so that's what happened, in case you're just joining the show. Uh, I know, Sheriff Mark Kryder, you had some words that you were saying, and we have some other guys that probably want to weigh in. So, Sheriff Pryder.

[23:48] Speaker 6: Yeah. We were talking about the, uh, the video. Once the engagement happens, the guy g- runs down the street and then runs back. Uh, the second the male, uh, officer is still giving him commands to, "Drop the gun, drop the gun." Or, "Raise your hands," whatever commands he was giving when he's holding the gun at chest, chest level. At that point, uh, I think, I think we've exhausted all of our remedies other than just shooting him.

[24:19] Speaker 1: Yeah. I, I agree. The only command that should be given, and, and it's not in the deadly force encounter, is, "Stop, police. Don't move." After that, the only communication should be between the officers...

[24:29] Speaker 5: ... who were trying to get an advantage to, to smoke this guy. But, you know, Chip, we've talked about it at length. S- guys, stop screaming at the bad guy. A- and I won't make a show of hands here, but how many times have, have you ever, uh, given a command to a bad guy-

[24:43] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[24:43] Speaker 5: ... and he definitely did it? No, they don't. So keep that oxygen in your head, use it to make decisions, you know, uh, when to pull the trigger. And even at that last moment when he's... They're, they're... The bad guy's in front of the garage and the officers are behind the truck. They're still giving that guy commands. It's, it's over with, man. The last thing he should hear from, on Earth is, is some cop giggling 'cause he's getting ready to put one right in his dome. That sounded terrible. I'll take that back right now.

[25:13] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[25:14] Speaker 2: I'll second that.

[25:17] Speaker 1: All right. Chuck Springer, how would they do it LAPD style?

[25:19] Speaker 4: Well, you know, it, it... And t- this is an interesting suspect. He's highly mobile a- and he feigned surrender twice. And so the second time-

[25:29] Speaker 1: Good, good point. Good point.

[25:30] Speaker 4: ... he does that, right, th- there's no question. Th- the round should be... And he's standing still finally. That's a great opportunity to, you know, get the suspect down and end the threat. You know, I, I won't go into a lot of the stuff we've already discussed. There's a lot of training debrief issues there. Um, thankfully these officers didn't die. But let's talk a little bit about training, uh, and the, the, uh, mindset of our officers these days, and not just these days, but in the past. You know, when I was on the job, a lot of officers expected that if the department wanted you to be competent, that it was the department's job to train you. Uh, and I agree that that's true for a lot of things. But when it comes to firearms competency, we only go to a certain level in the academies. And then, depending on what agency you work for, you may only qualify once or twice a year, and that's just shooting at paper.

[26:25] Speaker 4: I, I would highly recommend that officers shell out the money and go to a two-day tactical firearms course on their own dime, on their own time. Uh, you know, you watch the reload on this, on the female officer, it, it's an improper reload. Her pointer finger should be all the way up at the top of the magazine so she can be eyes up and engage that magazine into the pistol without having to lose sight of the suspect. That's probably why she didn't see him come back around. But with all that said, I'll give, I'll give them credit. They stayed in the fight and they won.

[27:03] Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, I, I, I wouldn't... If I was the command, if I was the, the, the commander of this agency, I wouldn't... Look, these, these two, the, you know, the, the... They both should be shot. The female should, should likely be dead from what happened. They, they, they lucked out. Uh, this is a train- I, I believe this is mostly a training issue. I, I didn't see cowar- cowardice, but... Well, you know, I didn't see, I didn't see anything obviously sus- substantial cowardice, but it, it su-... You know, watching this video tells me that this agency does static training. They're probably standing still, um, someone said paper targets. They're not doing high-intensity stress shooting, um, moving, uh, while you shoot, and moving targets. So they, uh... I suspect the training is, is the main fault here. But these guys cannot go back out on the street until they get that thing addressed.

[27:55] Speaker 1: I suspect that likewise other people at the agency are, are gonna suffer the same demise unless they get this training thing under control.

[28:02] Speaker 5: Well, Chip, I was a little confused 'cause she had a, she had what I call very generically a red dot scope on her pistol. That was supposed to have fixed everything, wasn't it?

[28:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

[28:10] Speaker 5: Isn't that... Was I wrong? Did I buy one for no good reason? Now, I've heard this about these, these miracle devices. They help you see better, but they don't help you shoot better.

[28:21] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, she's of course-

[28:23] Speaker 5: But she's not... Uh, if you suck at pulling the trigger, you're gonna suck at pulling the trigger no matter what's on top of your gun.

[28:27] Speaker 1: Yeah. The s- the stress level, the one-handed shooting while she's, uh, trying to move away from the target and doing one-handed shooting when... And she's, you know, she's on the radio, which is gonna do her absolutely no good except get her killed. Um, yeah, just there's so many problems with this. This is not... This is... Does not make the agency look good. They n-... But they, you know, they can recover by doing something positive because this has come out. Now they're aware of this. They've gotta do something before they get a officer killed from lack of training here. Thank you, FLG member support.

[28:55] Speaker 5: Well, he- here's the thing we ran across, Chip. I don't know if the other guys ran across this. You know, when I was, when I was in charge of the firearms training at Tampa Police, I'd go to the boss, go, "Chief, we need to go to the range more. We, we need more training." And I was told, and this is very, very basically, "Sorry, gotta fill zones. Gotta fill zones, man. We're down, uh, gotta fill zones. You know, we can't take cops off.

[29:15] Speaker 5: We gotta fill zones."

[29:16] Speaker 1: I know.

[29:17] Speaker 5: But, but, but gotta fill zones, brother.

[29:20] Speaker 4: Yeah. You know, and if I think your agen-... If you think your agency isn't providing you proper training, you know, at the end of the day, it's your life.

[29:29] Speaker 1: It's on you.

[29:29] Speaker 4: Right? Do something.

[29:32] Speaker 1: Yep.

[29:32] Speaker 4: You know, outside of law enforcement, a lot of professionals spend a lot of money to make themselves more marketable. But law enforcement officers seem to think that the agency is simply responsible for that. And they are, like I mentioned, on a lot of things, but for these kind of situations where you're gonna have to come out and start shooting, it's your life, it's your partner's life, it's your family on the line. Get out there and get some training if you have to do it on your own.

[29:59] Speaker 5: Chuck, you remember years ago, they came out with this little square. It was conscious competence, and at the very bottom was unconscious incompetence. Some officers don't know how bad they are, 'cause if they knew how bad they were, they'd go take training. Some know how bad they are and they won't take training. They're, they're even worse than that.

[30:16] Speaker 1: Right.

[30:16] Speaker 5: So, you know, we all, we all agree and we all did pay for our own training. But you... If, if you're, if you're stupid, you don't know you're stupid.

[30:25] Speaker 1: (laughs) . Right, right.

[30:26] Speaker 4: And I agree. You know, it, it, the... I think the, the, uh, the training standards across the country on the department level need to be bumped up a little bit.

[30:36] Speaker 1: ... thank you. Hey, Rich, I got a-

[30:39] Speaker 5: Takes money.

[30:40] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's why, you know, having a guy at the helm like the, like the sheriff here, a train-... If you have a trainer that's in charge of that agency, it's a lot easier to pull off. They get it, you know, and I know, you know, um, Mark... Well, Mark Cr-... I mean, you know, when you were at the FBI and you were, you, you were, um, their, their SWAT tac guy, you were a firearms tr- instructor trainer, um, you got that head. But, you know, a lot... Around the country, a lot of sheriffs and chiefs don't. I- I've worked for them and, uh, man, what a, what a difference working with someone that actually embraces training.

[31:12] Speaker 6: Well, Rich can probably tell you, one of the, one of the big, uh, changes for me when I came over to, obviously, the sheriff's office was, in the FBI, if we wanted a training day, we just shut the office down and everybody went to the range and we shot. (laughs)

[31:28] Speaker 1: Wow.

[31:28] Speaker 6: I don't have that luxury. I've got to provide the citizens', you know, safety and security 24/7, so it's much different. And I can tell you, in Walla Walla County, my training budget, my entire training budget, which includes travel and signing up for classes and stuff, doesn't even... Like, is probably one-tenth of the ammo budget that I had in Milwaukee for my agents. So, one of the things, you know, we talked about that if you're a professional, you seek things that make you more professional. I encouraged my agents and I encourage my deputies to get out and go shoot USPSA matches. They're 20, 25 bucks a piece and I will give them ammo to go shoot that, that thing. And you will actually see how bad you are at one of your skills when you see some of these civilians and these 12-year-old girls running circles around you on these courses. And it's embarrassing and it makes you train harder and get better.

[32:32] Speaker 1: Wow.

[32:33] Speaker 6: And it's cheap.

[32:34] Speaker 5: You know, Sheriff, years ago, at... We used to have our own range, Tampa Police Pistol Rifle Club, uh, and it was paid for by the civilians who were coming out to rent the range. And we had two reloaders out there, we had a civilian employee, all he did was reload ammunition for us. We'd get two boxes a week or whatever. You'd be surprised, maybe I'm surprised, how few people ever took advantage of it.

[32:57] Speaker 1: Perfect timing, Brett. Guys, we're up for our third commercial break. Stick with us, we'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about GunLearn at gunlearn.com. As law enforcement officers, we deal with guns and we deal with ammunition every day. It's what we don't know about them that gets us into trouble. Injuries, civil lawsuits, accidental discharges, misidentifications, lost prosecutions, and disciplinary issues, but gunlearn.com, they have your back. You can quickly become extremely firearm knowledgeable by simply learning 14 training modules from the convenience of your home or your office or by attending a live seminar at gunlearn.com. You can also become a safe, accurate, and competent certified firearms specialist, like our very own Captain Brett Bartlett and also Attorney Ken Apianco.

[33:36] Speaker 1: Now, the course has had huge success in raising the bar of firearm knowledge and GunLearn has been a trusted source since way back in 2011 by gun manufacturers, federal agencies, forensic organizations, and even police departments nationwide. Now, the founder, Dan O'Kelly, has got a deal for you if you have your own agency. If you're chief or sheriff, you can host a seminar for absolutely no cost. This is an amazing opportunity. You can go to gunlearn.com to get more information. Again, that is gunlearn.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show joined by Sheriff Mark Kreider, Captain Brett Bartlett, Lieutenant Chuck Springer, and retired Secret Service agent Rick Stiroopoli. Thanks, guys. And we've been talking about, we've been talking about a lot of things, but this, uh, this last, uh, use of force involving, uh, you know, uh, two officers, uh, there's a, there's a, there's a learning opportunity (laughs) from, from what we've seen.

[34:25] Speaker 1: Hopefully, the agency will, will apply that and, uh, and make some changes, uh, to their... We suspect it's mostly a training issue. Brett doesn't think they're gonna do that. You, you may be right. But hey, you know what? After shows like this go on with the people that we have on, with y- with you guys, you know, I'd hate to be in a court and have the chief or the sheriff, you know, being told, "You know what? This is no secret. You didn't learn last time this happened." Now you've got, you know, a, like what Rich, Rich said, now you've got, you know, a civilian in a home a half a mile away and a bullet comes ripping through the, the window and takes out, you know, a mother or a child. You know, these are, these are definitely things that, you know, once the agency becomes aware of them, they've gotta take action or there's a huge liability over, over, you know, hanging over them. Sure.

[35:09] Speaker 5: Well, you know, one of the things they need to do, Chip, is have a, a what-did-we-learn session after each of these things, and-

[35:15] Speaker 1: Agree.

[35:15] Speaker 5: ... I, I th- I think there's a lot of pushback. The unions don't like it 'cause it... 'cause, you know, cops will have to talk about what happened. And if there's a discipline issue, that could be a problem. But you need to tear it apart, rip it apart, bring people in and say, "Listen, you did this good, you did this not so good. We're gonna learn from what you did great, and we're gonna learn from what you did not so great," but don't let it go to waste.

[35:37] Speaker 6: Well, I think, right-

[35:38] Speaker 1: I think so.

[35:38] Speaker 6: ... you're tot- you're totally right about that. But, you know, that speaks to the overall, um, um, you know, whole, the whole way the world is working now, right? We can't have an after-action because we don't want to make anybody feel bad. Yeah, that's great if you're selling ice cream. You're a freaking cop, right? You just engaged in a gunfight. You know what? If you can't take a little constructive criticism, you're in the wrong line of work, right? "I- I'm not concerned about optics, I'm not concerned about making somebody cry." Hell, we've made people cry on the range before. Eh, too bad. Go find another job. That's the way it goes.

[36:10] Speaker 6: Yeah, Chip

[36:10] Speaker 1: For sure.

[36:10] Speaker 6: ... I was gonna, I was gonna chime in exactly that. This is a old carryover from my, uh, Navy days. Uh, you brief the flight, you flew the flight, and you debrief the flight. And I will say that, um, the FBI specifically while I was in is horrible...... uh, when there was an F-14 that crashed anywhere in the world, I read the mishap report. I was required to read the mishap report, as was everybody else that flew F-14s. Um, when there's a shooting in your agency, everybody should be required to read the after action report and learn from those guys what they did right, what they did wrong. It's, it's not a critique. It is professionalism and you are honing your craft every single day that you are involved in this profession.

[37:06] Speaker 1: Yeah. That's, that's, that's one of the most, that's one of the best statements of today's show. You're absolutely right.

[37:11] Speaker 5: It, it's like, uh, the NFL. Don't tell me they don't look at the, uh, post-game videos to lo- to see what happened, and these are, these are professionals. They learn so they can win next time. It just drives me crazy. But I guess when I'm in charge, it'll be better.

[37:24] Speaker 6: That's a great analogy.

[37:26] Speaker 1: So, um, so Bret, let's talk about Microtech. What do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you got there, Bret?

[37:35] Speaker 5: I have a Microtech knife out the front, solidly built. I'm very impressed. I've been showing it all around my, my professional community. Everybody's digging it. It's a nice little knife, Chip. Thank you.

[37:48] Speaker 1: All right. Well, thank you, uh, Microtech.

[37:50] Speaker 5: Watch. You're gonna go-

[37:50] Speaker 1: So-

[37:50] Speaker 5: Watch this. Watch this. You don't have enough bandwidth to follow this. Ready? Look, you, you missed it. You missed it.

[37:56] Speaker 1: Yeah. I tried that. I tried to put that in slow motion, but it just wouldn't work.

[37:59] Speaker 5: Oh, you can't.

[37:59] Speaker 1: And so likewise, this is an out- an out the side automatic, and I'm gonna go really slow for you guys on this one here. Look at that.

[38:06] Speaker 5: Oh.

[38:07] Speaker 1: Isn't that, isn't that just... And this, isn't this just beautiful? Look at that thing.

[38:10] Speaker 5: Wow. Yeah.

[38:10] Speaker 1: It's got black- it's got the blackout br- blade and stuff. And so the nice thing about this one, this is a, uh, a demolition. So this is the, uh, underwater demolition version. And, uh, this thing, there's no play in the blade. I like a serrated blade, so this thing is partially serrated. And, uh, yeah, it's a, uh, just, just the feel of this, of this knife, it is, uh, great. Microtech has definitely, uh, got some great products and, uh, Microtech is the name. So, um, thanks for t- thanks for showing the knife off, Bret. And you're getting a lot of compliments you say, huh?

[38:42] Speaker 5: Oh, my gosh. I tell you, all God's children need a knife.

[38:45] Speaker 1: And so what I would say is that if you're in uniform, and look, we've been talking about, uh, knives. Um, and Sheriff Kryder's gonna have one he's gonna be showing off soon. Um, you know, and out the side, uh, which is what this is, not out the front, but out the side, um, there is less cleaning, uh, for a knife like this. So if you're in uniform and you want to carry an automatic knife, you know, you can open it up with one hand by pushing a button. Um, an out the side is really what you're gonna want. If you're in a controlled environment like, uh, Bret and I are now, you're a detective, you could go with an out the front. And, uh, but they require a little bit more maintenance. Um, lubrication, you want to make sure that it, it deploys when you're in a jam. You don't want to have it not deploy, so that's why if you're on the street, you're not control, you don't know what kind of environment you're gonna be in. It's gonna get dirty, it's gonna get stuff in it.

[39:31] Speaker 1: It's just not gonna... Eventually, the out the front's just not gonna open when you need it to. So that's why out the side, when you're on the street, when you have a controlled environment, out the front will work just fine. Um, so if you guys are ready-

[39:41] Speaker 6: I just want to say that that's a clear violation of, uh, um, Chapter 15, uh, I think it is, uh, or, uh, 15 USC Chapter 29-1241, the, uh, 1958 Switchblade Knife Act.

[39:57] Speaker 1: Oof.

[39:57] Speaker 5: Oh, I think that's in, uh, Section 0812.

[40:01] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[40:02] Speaker 6: (laughs)

[40:02] Speaker 1: I'm glad (laughs) , I'm glad we carry Under Leosa, Bret. All right. Uh, moving, moving along here. Uh, let's see. Let's go to a, uh, an update story. Um, you know, uh, you know, this is, this one is in, uh, is in California and I'm, uh... You know what? I'm gonna switch. I'm gonna switch it up here. We're gonna go to Polk County, which is Grady Judge neck of the woods. TampaFP.com. Polk County deputy resigns after arrest. He steals cash during a Fort Meade traffic stop. Now, look, the system's working. We identified a bad deputy, and, and two fellow deputies turned him in. Listen to the story. Polk County, or, you know, Imperial Col- Polk Cou- Polk County, uh, Grady Judge's sheriff. Polk County Sheriff's Office traffic enforcement deputy resigned on Wednesday, June the 25th, 2025, after being arrested and he's charged with petty theft. Uh, had he not resigned, he would have been terminated.

[40:52] Speaker 1: Deputy Justin Register, 28 years old, he's young, taken into custody following an investigation initiated by two fellow, uh, Pasco County deputies who reported his alleged dishonest behavior during a traffic stop. Wow. So, kudos to the deputies. Uh, I know it wasn't easy to do. Um, now, here's Sheriff Grady Judd. "I am disgusted by Justin Register's dishonest behavior. We are going to hold him accountable for his disgraceful actions and he should never be trusted to work in law enforcement again." And that's what Grady Judd said. He said, "I am proud of the two other deputies who came forward to report what they discovered." Now, the incident started near, uh, a, a place called Fort Meade during a traffic stop conducted by this deputy, Register. The driver was arrested for driving without a valid driver's license, and Deputy Joseph Leon and Deputy Vido Minno, the other two deputies, they arrived as backup.

[41:38] Speaker 1: Now, Deputy Leon observed our original deputy, Register, place the driver's wallet and phone in the trunk of his patrol car, and shortly afterwards, uh, the deputy, Deputy Leon, the backup deputy, saw the original deputy, Register, return to the trunk. And when the driver's daughter arrived, requested his property, uh, one of the backup deputies, Leon, watched Register retrieve the items, pull $82 from the wallet, and hand it to the woman. Now, the driver stated that approximately $300 more should have been in the wallet. Now, the two backup deputies, Leon and Mineno, uh, they began searching the scene and found a pay stub belonging to the driver for a checked cash for $400. Now, Deputy Leon then noticed Register, our original deputy, he goes back to his patrol truck, he unzips the rifle bag, and he removes some folded cash.

[42:26] Speaker 1: He unfolds it, he flattens it, and he says, "Oh, here it is." And so the backup deputies immediately report their, what they saw to their lieutenant, and, uh, then there's an investigation. Uh, Sheriff Grady Judd emphasized the investigation is still ongoing, uh, it's far from complete, and the agency's now gonna audit all of this deputy's arrests and traffic stops. The sheriff's office is also collaborating with the Tenth Judicial Circuit, uh, to review all the arrests that he's made, uh, that are currently being prosecuted. And they are looking for people that have more information to come forward. Uh, 45 seconds, guys. Uh, any commentary on this one? Uh, I know Bret, you used to be the internal affairs guy. Oh, Chuck Springer.

[43:04] Speaker 4: Y- you know, in the words of Forrest Gump, uh, "Stupid is as stupid does." Uh, especially when you have other people there that not that that makes any difference. Uh, and over $400? Come on. You know, the problem is, is the stain is set, and it's on law enforcement more than it is on the fact that i- two other officers stepped forward and reported it. But at least they did the right thing.

[43:26] Speaker 1: Yeah. Totally, totally agree. Totally agree with you. Well, guys, uh, it's been another great show. Stick with us. Don't go anywhere. But thank you so much to Sheriff Mark Kryder, Walla Walla County in Washington State, Captain Bret Barlar from the Tampa Police Department, the founder of Exonerative Defense Solutions at ExoneratedDefense.com, Lieutenant Chuck Springer, former LAPD commander, and former Secret Service agent Rich StiripolIe, thank you guys. Uh, now, I usually take this opportunity to talk about The Wounded Blue at TheWoundedBlue.org. Lieutenant Randy Sutton's 501c3 that's helping cops all over- out in a world of hurt that are suffering from things like PTSD and other issues. And guys, if you're looking for an organization to support that's not gonna embarrass you, I highly recommend The Wounded Blue at TheWoundedBlue.org. Uh, shout out to gaulish.com, complianttechnologies.com, gunlearn.com, medicare.lifesafearrecruiting, and twobells.com.

[44:14] Speaker 1: (rock music)