[00:13] Speaker 1: Welcome to Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host. We're a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a law enforcement perspective. And let me introduce the crew, guys, if you don't mind, waiting for the video portion of our show. He's back, yes, CEO from Complyant Technologies, we have Jeff Nicholas. So Jeff, thank you so much for being back on the show. And also of Complyant Technologies, we have Dan Delacruz. Yeah, he's the guy that gloved me, and you all saw the video and, uh, he actually requested that music. He likes that song. But, uh, anyhow, thank you so much guys for being on the show. And, uh, what in the world are we gonna be talking about today? Well, stay tuned for that. I'm gonna tell you, it, and it's, it's, it's pretty spectacular stuff. But first, let me introduce our, our sponsors. You know, our title sponsor is gaulus@gaulus.com.

[00:56] Speaker 1: And hey, Jeff's company, Complyant Technologies, our satellite sponsor at complyantechnologies.com, who we really appreciate, got us on satellite radio. We have gunlearn.com, mymedicare.live, safeguardrecruiting.com are streaming sponsoring us, thanks to them. We're streaming to about a million followers right now on social media during the live show. And twobells.com that built a new online store at leoroundtable.com. Go to the website, upper right corner, go to the online store. You can get cool gear like the, uh, mug behind me, shirts, hats, all kinds of stuff. Prices are dirt cheap. We don't make a dime off of anything. We're just trying to get our gear out there. And a shout-out to Brian Burns for the Tampa Free Press at tampafp.com. Thanks for carrying our content, Brian, and getting us on, getting us on, uh, on MSN. Also, Ray Detrick with formerlawman.com and Travis Yeates with lawofficer.com. Thanks to all those entities for helping make this show happen.

[01:42] Speaker 1: And now guys, here's what we're gonna be talking about today. Hey, we're starting it off. Um, hell of a rescue, Trump saves airmen from Iranian cliffs, and this is the new stuff, vows jail time for sick leaker. I heard about this the first time watching, um, the news yesterday. We're gonna talk about that. Then we've got army of radical prosecutors, uh, they all have one thing in common, and that story, uh, there's another ha- there's another part to it. And, and I'm, i- it's the bench trial. There's a new bill that aims to strip judges of legal immunity. You know, they have absolute immunity; cops have qualified immunity. That means that we have to qualify for it, but they don't. It's absolute. Well, they're, they're looking at changing that. So I think that article is, uh, is gonna interest a lot of people. So we've got that coming up as well. Um, other things that we're gonna be talking about today, uh, we've got a couple stories.

[02:35] Speaker 1: Uh, well, this first one's an update, then we have some with video components. This is a suspended Massachusetts troopers, they plead not guilty to manslaughter in a recruit's training death. We've also got a female armed robbery suspect. Doesn't happen a lot, but we've got an armed robber, convenience store, a female, fatally shot by LAPD officers when she points a pellet gun at them. They didn't know it was a pellet gun at the time, though. Sacramento Police body cam of an officer shooting a suspect armed with a knife near an elementary school. Illinois mom faces felony charges after opening fire to stop an attack on her son. That's an interesting story. And then we've got, uh, the Louisville Metro Police Department, uh, there was a fatal shooting of a woman holding a glass object during a mental health crisis. There may be some critique on, uh, on how they did that. Um, I'm kind of curious what the people on the show, like what you guys think about that too.

[03:20] Speaker 1: So if you guys are ready, let's go on and start off with the main topic. Tampafreepress.com, we've got, uh, hell of a rescue, Trump saves airmen from Iranian cliffs and vows jail time for the sick leaker. So, uh, y- you know, we covered it yesterday, but there's more information trickling out, which I love. And I think this is gonna make for a, uh, for a, uh, fantastic, you know, movie. Now, now Jeff, don't get worried. It may not, it may not rise to Black Hawk Down, you know, status, but (laughs) I think it's gonna be a great, I think it's gonna be a great movie, buddy. Uh, so what do you think? What do you think? You, what, what's your odds are that?

[03:54] Speaker 2: Well, hey, listen, uh, Black Hawk Down was a travesty in many ways. You know, it was, if it wasn't for the guys that were on the ground, it would've been a total slaughter. So I'm, I'm all about these wins, uh, especially over the last couple months. If you look at Maduro and you look at the different raids-

[04:08] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

[04:08] Speaker 2: ... plus this rescue and the assets that you, uh, uh, saw with, uh, Maduro are probably the same assets used in this, uh, rescue. And, uh, these guys are highly trained. This, but what a phenomenal coming together, and that's where the joint forces came together all about. And that they used every one of th- every bit of their last resources to get that guy out safely. And you're right, that leaker needs to be found and, um, dealt with for treason.

[04:34] Speaker 1: Well, let me read this, let me read this article as to some people may not even know about this leaker thing yet. So President Trump stepped to the White House... And I'm kinda go, gonna go over some of the stuff that maybe people heard yesterday, but there's some new information built into this. President Trump, um, he stepped to the White House briefing room. Now this happened yesterday at 1:00 PM. So right when we're finishing our show, Trump takes the podium and he confirms the successful high stakes recovery, two American airmen who had been trapped deep inside Iranian territory. And he was, uh, he had Secretary Pete Hegseth with him and CIA Director John Ratcliffe was also there too. They played (laughs) a huge part in this, and members of the Trump family were there as well. The president praised the military's precision. He called for the operation, he, well, he called it a bre- breathtaking show of skill and noted that i- it was a, made one of our better Easters.

[05:21] Speaker 1: I totally agree. I mean, Easter Sunday and this news off the bat, wow. The drama began, it actually started on Good Friday when the, uh, the F-15, uh, Eagle got, you know, shot down. They recovered one airman, uh, fairly quickly. Uh, but then we had the systems officer, you know, in the number two seat, uh, he was, uh, he was in hi- hiding out for about 48 hours in Iranian territory. And Trump described how he was bleeding rather profusely. He said it was treacherous mountain cliffs. Uh, I know he, they said that he had a leg injury. He climbed about 7,000 feet to get elevation and protection, and then he activated his, um, tracking device, and, and, and then the CIA gets involved. And I'll tell you, it, it, you know, Hegseth and Trump and all these guys were, um, you know, their-They're in DC. They're not going home for the weekend to be with their families for, you know, for Easter. They're not doing brunches and stuff like probably the rest of us are. T- they're watching this guy.

[06:19] Speaker 1: Once he activates the beacon, they know where he's at, and now they're just trying to keep, you know, people away from him. But apparently, somebody leaks the information that two pilots were down, one was recovered, and one's still there. And now all of a sudden, Iran knows about it, and they're offering all kinds of ridiculous awards. There's even one of them medaled in the Olympics, and, uh, uh, and not, not one of the female players that tried to, to leave. It was a dude that offered his medals that he got in the Olympics to whoever turned over this pilot, found him, and turned him over to the authorities in Iran, so they could do whatever they wanted with him. It was just kind of crazy stuff. So now the CIA is doing an op where they're, um, fabricating information and sending resources in Iran, making them think that, um, the guy's already been found, he's on the other side of the country, and they're trying to clear the way so they can do a rescue mission.

[07:07] Speaker 1: And they had 155 aircraft. Now, Jeff, you said it was likely the same people involved, a- a- and one went down in Venezuela. I didn't even think about that. Uh, y- y- it- it- th- that's amazing. 155 aircraft, including four bombers, 64 fighters, 48 refueling tankers, and, um, he- Trump noted that 21 aircraft in the initial wave flew through very, very heavy em- enemy fire. One helicopter returned riddled with bullets, according to Trump. And it says, uh, while it was suc- successful, there was a snag, because the heavy weight of some of the planes, they got bogged down in some wet sand, and they basically, thank God, they had a contingency plan, so they, they got, I mean, very quickly, lighter, faster aircraft. They destroyed the aircraft that were there. Maybe you can explain... I mean, I never, I mean, it's just amazing, all the things you have to think about. And it's not like Afghanistan, where we're gonna leave all this millions of dollars of equipment for the enemy to enjoy.

[08:02] Speaker 1: Uh, Trump alleged that the media report revealed a second airman was missing, like I said earlier, uh, while the rescue mission was still active, tipping off the Iranians. He claimed the leak led to Iran offering this very big, uh, reward for the pilot's capture, and, and, and, and now they had to speed up their hunt and, and, uh, and, and try to get this guy. And he said, "The person of the other story will go to jail if he doesn't say..." So he's talking about the reporter. They're gonna put pressure on the reporter. He didn't name the news outlet. And I gotta be honest with you, to this day, I, I don't know who... I mean, I'm sure I can Google and easily find it, but if the pr- if the reporter doesn't give it up, Trump's gonna put him in jail, eh, because it's a national security issue here, and they're not, and they're not protected.

[08:40] Speaker 1: CIA Director John Ratcliffe described the search as hunting for a single grain of sand in the middle of the desert and, uh, all the technol- all, all the things that they had to do, including the CIA diversion techniques. And, uh, i- i- it's pretty impressive. So I'm gonna go ahead and stop there. I think I've said enough. But they did promise jail time for either the reporter or whoever, you know, gave up the goods and put this pilot's life, you know, at risk. And I love the, I love the way they're handling leakers. Um, Jeff?

[09:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, when I heard about the aircraft getting stuck, I'm thinking, oh Lord, don't let it be another Desert One, uh, with some-

[09:13] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[09:13] Speaker 2: ... with the things that happened, which started our everything happening in Iran. They destroyed everything in place. Um, yeah, the e- the same assets. I mean, the special operations community is, um, robust in this country, but it's, it's not infinite. And so, a lot of these guys have been deploying pretty heavily, and I'm sure u- using some of the same assets. Now, the guys that went in to get the, uh, aviator were different from the guys on the ground in, uh, Venezuela. However, they're the same type of tier one asset. Um, I thought it was pretty good. They also had, uh, drone coverage. And as the guys got closer to him, they were able to take a lot of the guys out, I think, that were trying to get close to his position. But moving to high terrain, especially if he had an area where helicopters could come in and, and get him out, uh, was probably helpful, especially for radio coverage. The, uh...

[10:05] Speaker 2: But I believe that there was eyes on wi- on him, uh, with cameras and stuff like that, from like 40 miles away. They were able to identify him, and from there, they knew where he was at. And then, you know, his, his, uh, his comm radio that they, you know, they are, um, set with certain frequencies, um, but, uh, they're not always secure communications. Now, I'm sure that the ones that they have now are a lot more advanced than what we had. And, um, so I'm sure that there's that, there's the satellite signal, and then there's also the, uh, ability to make radio comms as well at certain times. So, uh, it, all in all, it was miraculous. I think it was a great way. I- I'm sure a lot of people were praying about that. I guess he's a, from what I understand, he's a devout Christian, the guy that got shot down. Broke his ankle, had a lot of bleeding, uh, tended to himself, and luckily it was only 48 hours, 'cause the body can't live that long without water. So, you know, God is good.

[11:01] Speaker 2: That's all I can tell you.

[11:02] Speaker 1: Yeah, that was his message too, wasn't it? His very first message when, uh-

[11:06] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[11:06] Speaker 1: ... you know, that he, that he, that he sent out.

[11:08] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[11:08] Speaker 1: God, God is good.

[11:09] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[11:09] Speaker 1: Can, can you give, can you give our, our listeners and viewers, uh, and I know we got 50 seconds before we take our first commercial break, but can you just give them a, a, a brief rundown on, on, on your history and experience with the, with the US military?

[11:21] Speaker 2: Well, I spent most of my army career in the, in the 160th, which is the unit that's doing a lot of these, um, a lot of this work out there in the, uh, in the field right now. Um, and, uh, yeah, I spent, uh, doing operations all over the world to include Mogadishu in Somalia back in the day, and what was called, uh, Gothic Serpent, which was turning a Black Hawk down. It was a call sign of, uh, call sign Super 67.

[11:46] Speaker 1: And you're a Black Hawk helicopter pilot, right? So...

[11:48] Speaker 2: Black Hawk heli- yeah. Yeah. I made a-

[11:49] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[11:49] Speaker 2: ... a whole senator around, but yeah.

[11:51] Speaker 1: Love it.

[11:52] Speaker 2: Black Hawk for 20 years.

[11:52] Speaker 1: Love it. Got 30 seconds out, guys. Hey, we'll go to commercial break. Our first one. Stick with us. It's gonna stay good. We'll be right back. (instrumental music) My family only cares about one thing, that I come home safe.

[12:06] Speaker 3: At Gulls, every order begins with a promise. Made with purpose.

[12:16] Speaker 4: Stitched for support. Back with pride. Answered by dedicated hands. Delivering the standard you have sworn to uphold. We serve more than the mission. We serve the person. Each piece is engineered to help get our first responders through the shift and back home safe.

[12:58] Speaker 1: Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host. We're joined by, uh, two guys from Compliant Technologies, the glove guys, and, uh, Jeff Nickless, the CEO, and Dan Delacruz as well. So, thanks gentlemen for being on the show. Um, also, Jeff Nickless, uh, was a, a Black Hawk pilot and, uh, we're talking about the pilot rescues that we had, just had over the weekend in Iran and, and how our US military... it's just, they're getting it done. And they've been getting it done, um, under Trump 2.0. Um, and so, uh, so Jeff, thanks for what you shared. Uh, Dan, do you have any words that you want to add on the, uh, on the pilot rescues or anything or...

[13:38] Speaker 5: Uh, I, I guess, well, what Jeff said about the possibility and what you mentioned about them making a movie, I think another thing that should happen, and I'm hoping will happen as, as we end this war and we get control of, uh, what happens there in the Strait, that this will be a great story about our president that so many people are... have so many negative thoughts about that. This will tell the true story of the forethought that went into all of this. Amongst this, this incredible come together over the Easter holiday to rescue one individual. I mean, and all because of this one, one person that half the, half the country is up in arms about all the time. Uh, I think if they come out... it, it should just be a positive, a positive spin on his forethought and how we, how we get to this at the end. It is, is gonna be an incredible story.

[14:36] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[14:36] Speaker 5: And then this rescue on top of it, you know?

[14:39] Speaker 1: (laughs) I'm just so happy-

[14:40] Speaker 2: Can I add something to what Dan said? You know, when they were talking about leave no man behind? That actually is the reason why it took so long for us to get out of Mogadishu, because they were fighting very hard to get clothe- all caught out of that wreckage. We would have been, we would have ex-filled out of there a lot long ago, but we refused to leave anybody behind. Um, so that, that is also a huge combat multiplier that lets other countries know that we're not going till we get our people back, and there will be hell to pay if we don't. And, um, and that, uh, we're very committed, because that in itself is a huge combat multiplier.

[15:16] Speaker 2: Think about all the troops right now thinking about, "Wow, I've got a commander-in-chief I can stand behind right now, and I know that he's got this country's best interest in mind."

[15:26] Speaker 1: That's a good, that's a good point. Um, you know, I hope people are paying attention too. You know, you bring up a good point, Dan. And, and, and people... Look, there's, there are people that hate Trump because he's Trump, but, you know, you really got to, got to question their patriotism, you know, by, by just, you know, pushing that, pushing that agenda when all these great things are going on for our country. And, and that said, notice it was just us and Israel on this thing. So, when we take the Strait and we take the island and we're in charge of it, I don't want to hear anything from anybody, I'm talking certainly not here in the United States, but even other countries, because, you know, this was all, this was all us. We had everything to risk, everything at stake, and they did absolutely nothing, you know, to help us. E- even shutting down airspace, uh, most recently, uh, that, that we needed.

[16:11] Speaker 1: So, um, um, yeah, I think, I think, you know, Trump, he's, he's playing 4D chess and, uh, and he's so far ahead of these guys. But I think some good things are gonna come out of this. I think that it's, uh... I'm glad things happened the way they did because now we know who our friends are and who our enemies are. And some people we thought were friends really aren't. And, uh, and then, of course, by, uh, by not, you know, by not opening up the Strait ourselves, which we could, and, uh, and doing other things, you know, the pressure is really not so much on us. It's putting... it's, it's ruining the European's world and they're gonna be more dependent on us because of it, because, you know, we have the oil and we're about to be in control of a lot more of it. So, um, I love it. I love it. A lot of strategy here.

[16:52] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[16:52] Speaker 1: Well, guys, if you're ready, uh, we've got another story. Um, you know what? I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold off on the... We got one with the prosecutors. I'm, I'm gonna hold off on that, if that's okay? Just to see if we... uh, there's some other stories I think that maybe we'll do better covering. Um, at boston25news.com, Suspended Massachusetts Troopers, plural, Plead Not Guilty to Manslaughter in a Recruit's Training Death. You know, I was a, um, a defensive tactics instructor at the academy. Um, you, you, you have, you have a- academy students, people that are recruits that are trying to become police officers. And then you have that in-service training, is what we called it, where you come by yearly and do your defensive tactics training. And that was something that was pretty much mandatory. You, you did DT stuff every year. It wasn't like driving where you did it like once every three years.

[17:36] Speaker 1: So, Worcester, Massachusetts, we got three of four members of the Massachusetts State Police that ended up being charged in connection with the September 2024 training death of an academy recruit. And they faced a judge for the first time on Thursday afternoon. Now, Sergeant Jennifer Penton, Trooper Edwin Rodriguez, and Trooper David...... but I guess, uh, Montanez, they ended up being arraigned and, uh, on involuntary manslaughter charges stemming from the death of Enrique Delgado-Garcia. And he unfortunately, uh, died following a boxing exercise at the Massachusetts State Police Academy in New Braintree. And they, they all entered a plea of not guilty and th- so that's for the three. Remember, there's a fourth one out there that we, who we mention in a second. The judge presiding over the hearing, he allowed the troopers to be released on, uh, they, they signed on their personal recognizance. A fourth individual, Casey Lamont, uh, is scheduled to be arraigned on April the 14th.

[18:32] Speaker 1: So we don't know what Casey's gonna plead. But the special prosecutor, David Meyer, first announced indictments against all four troopers on February the 9th, and sources familiar with this, they told, uh, a publication, Boston 25, that Delgado-Garcia was sparring with another trainee when he stumbled and he fell to the mat. And then he stood back up, continued the exercise, and then he later collapsed after taking a blow to the head. Now it sounds pretty benign, right? And, uh, he later ... Well it says investigators, they were later told that Delgado-Garcia suffered multiple injuries including broken bones, missing teeth and a spinal injury. Okay, there's a, there's ... Sound like there may be an issue there. Sources emphasize that there is no indication he was targeted during the training. An independent investigation determined that the four defendants allowed unsupervised, unauthorized and unapproved boxing drills to take place.

[19:21] Speaker 1: And you know, you always have to have, like, a safety officer when you're doing anything like this. The following, or following the death, the troopers involved in the exercise, they ended up being suspended without pay. That's not a good sign when they, when they don't pay you when you're being suspended. It means they're planning on, probably planning on firing you. In the aftermath, the state police, they announced a series of reforms at the academy including breaking recruits into smaller training, uh, groups, bringing new academy leadership, conducting an hour-by-hour review of the training curriculum, and it also said state police also suspended the full contact boxing training program, which I think is a mistake. You don't want people, the first time they get in a fight ... I see Geoff, uh, you both you guys are shaking your heads and agreeing.

[19:59] Speaker 1: You know, when we're doing the academy, sometimes the first time these guys are ever in a fight is when they're wearing, you know, we're in our red man gear and we're just, we're doing training, right? They've never been punched in the face before. So the case against, uh, Peña, Rodriguez and Monta- uh, Montanez, they're due back in court June 16th. Troopers were excused, uh, from appearing. The investigation remains open, so that's where we're at. Uh, guys, we got 20 seconds, uh, before our first, before our second commercial break, so we'll get to this when we come back. Stick with us. We'll be right back. All right guys.

[20:27] Speaker 1: It's time to talk about Comply Technologies at complytechnologies.com, and yes, it's these guys' company, and they're provided the, to, uh, committed to having non-lethal solutions to help officers gain the upper hand safely and rapidly in a humane, low optics manner, utilizing what they call their CD3, which stands for conductive distraction and de-escalation device technology. Now their flagship product we all know by now, we love it, it's called the GLOVE. It's helped officers not only tens of thousands of times, but they've actually had over 250,000 deployments. Guess what? No injuries, no deaths. It's an amazing statistic. They've actually achieved non-lethal status in an arena that predominantly can only offer less lethal results. And when it comes to weapons for intention, transitioning to a sidearm or a conducted energy weapon, the GLOVE at complytechnologies.com, they virtually eliminated weapons confusion.

[21:11] Speaker 1: So stay ahead of the game with Comply Technologies and the revolutionary CD3 that hundreds of agencies have already turned to nationwide. And friends, take it from me, when it comes to safety, this is one of the most commonsense, hands-on solutions that's ever come along. Go to complytechnologies.com today. Uh, tell them that Chip sent you, complytechnologies.com. Welcome back. Leo Round Table at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock and I'm your host. We're joined by, uh, two guys from Comply Technologies with the GLOVE, Geoff Nicholas, CEO, and Dan Delacruz. So thank you gentlemen. And I just ge- got ... We didn't have enough time to talk about it, but I went through the story about the suspended Massachusetts troopers. They pled not guilty to manslaughter in a recruit's training death, and so this is the Massachusetts State Police and the State Police Academy, um, and, uh, it was a boxing match, but I guess there was really a lack of supervision.

[21:58] Speaker 1: There was no safety officer telling them to stop. So the, the, the guy that ended up dying, uh, broken bones, there were some serious injuries, and he was allowed to continue to fight. And they've changed the way they're doing things, but they've also eliminated the boxing, which I already, you know, uh, voiced my concern over, because you know, there's some, first time people fight sometimes is in the police academy. Right or wrongly, that's just, that's just the way it is. So, um, commentary on this, gentleman, and, and what are your feelings on this one? Dan Delacruz.

[22:27] Speaker 5: Uh, this goes, uh, probably right along with something I, I, I say all the time when I'm talking to different departments about new recruits and everybody coming in. You know, everybody on this, uh, radio show today, the three of us are, uh, of a little bit older stature. When, when we grew up, we, there were, there were fights within school, outside of school, we hit each other, we did things and then we moved on with life. It was just part of our (laughs) it was part of our routine, uh, growing up. It was very natural. Nobody, nobody ended up hating each other and going home and getting a gun to shoot each other. We just lived and moved on. But in this day and age, to, to grow up and go to high school, no kid is fighting with another kid because their parents are probably gonna get sued if somebody gets in a fight and hits somebody. So they go ...

[23:17] Speaker 5: To be a good guy and be a police officer, they can't have done anything wrong, they never have any problems, they go through the academy, and the first time they get touched in the face or hit in any way, is, is in that moment when they go through the academy, and they gotta do the boxing. They gotta feel what it feels like to get hit. 'Cause w- if they get out into the field, the guys in the field aren't like these guys. They didn't follow all the rules and go to work and take care of their family and go through the academy and put all that effort in. They're just hanging out in a gym fighting five days a week.

[23:54] Speaker 1: Wow.

[23:55] Speaker 5: And they're going up against these police officers who have never been touched.They don't have the skill set to handle these guys out in the street. So, w- a- and this may sound like a sale, but that's where we- we're trying to level that playing field with what we do. And taking away the ability for them to feel what it feels like to truly be in some type of combative situation is a, is a terrible thing. And it just looks like every time there's a gun involved in something, they say, "Oh, well, we have to remove all the guns. The gun must be the problem." This is a training issue. This is... that, that can be fixed and can be policed and, and, and corrected, but these officers need to... they need this training. They should have this training. Uh, I, I... well, I'll go back to the carotid hold. They, the, the... across the country, they took away the carotid hold. It was actually one of the most safe maneuvers that any police officer can do with an individual.

[24:48] Speaker 5: Since they've removed that, deaths have gone up exponentially.

[24:52] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[24:52] Speaker 5: So, stop taking away training and stop taking away the things we need and, and, and what works.

[24:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, because I don't have the CRT, the carotid restraint technique is what we called it. Um, and, and we... I used to use it with great effect. I- in fact, you know, I mean, look, I'm, I'm five-seven, but I was, I was 184. I was a de- I was decent-sized for being short, but dude, I, I mean, I fought with... I had no problems fighting with a guy that was a lot bigger than me 'cause I'm gonna just do the CRT thing and put him out. And, uh, I have 20 seconds after that to get him handcuffed before he wakes up. But you're right. Now th- when they took that away, we just ended up beating p- people with an expandable metal baton after that, a metal pipe basically, is what they... is what we evolved to. I- i- it's funny. With... what you said about the story, Dan. You know, yesterday, uh, we had Scott Stired on the show, and we were talking about how, um, the advent of...

[25:40] Speaker 1: uh, when TASER came out, what it created was is n- we've got people now that are, that are less likely to go hands-on. There's reluctance to go hands-on and there's over-reliance on a device, um, that you're... and, and, and sometimes it depends on where it's at on the use of force continuum, but they're over-reliant on a device and they're reluctant to go hands-on, and that... and then we start talking about the glove. I think the glove can undo the damage that the TASER has done. And I'm not saying the TASER's not a good device for when it, when it's, y- you know, when it's needed or, or can be used. But as you go further up north and people wear more clothes, i- i- it's less effective. But the glove, it gives you that... you've got... especially with a smaller officer or a female and you have to go hands-on. Oh my gosh, it gives you that confidence and the ability to do, to do great things. But it, it... glove... even without the glove, you should be...

[26:31] Speaker 1: you should have the skill set to go hands-on with, with, with most people. Maybe not everybody, but most people. I'm not gonna go hands-on with an MMA fighter. I'm gonna escalate, but, uh, but the glove, that, that's gonna give our people the confidence that they need. The, the... what they've lost over the last 20 years with the TASER, that's gonna force them to start going hands-on, which is what they should be doing anyhow. You know.

[26:52] Speaker 2: There's no tool that should ever just be a fallback position to anything. That's where situational awareness, common sense, good decision-making and judgment come into play. And that's one of the things that we try to emphasize, especially in our training, which will give you sets of skills that you can use with or without our products. But the, the... uh, it's so important to do good hands-on defensive tactic skills and to take them away because of a knee-jerk reaction, that we gotta get away from this, um... I, I call it, uh... I don't wanna badmouth the people making the decision, but it's y- you're, you're, you're shooting yourself in the foot when you take those things away.

[27:31] Speaker 1: Well, thanks. So, um, yeah, I... hopefully the academy, hopefully they'll bring back at least some form of not just... I mean, some form of fighting. We're talking impact. You know, you wanna... you gotta be able to rock. I mean, I had my world... I've been in tons of fights when I went to the academy. And I had... I remember, you know, they, they put instruc-... you know, we, as DT instructors, you know, I'm gonna... look, if, if... whenever we had to fight someone, let's just say that there's, there's always someone bigger, badder, and, and, and in Jeff's case, better looking. You know. (laughs) No, I'm joking. But, but you know what I'm saying? There's always someone bigger and badder than you are. So... and I was...

[28:08] Speaker 1: I felt I was a capable DT instructor, but I will tell you that sometimes someone entered the ring and Eric Diaz, who's a fourth or fifth degree black belt would say, "Hey, Chip, let me take this one." You know, 'cause you've always got these students that, you know, we're not trying to hurt the students, but you got students that aren't necessarily... you know, I've had my hand broken, I've gotten kicked, I've had my hand broken, I've had students do things, maybe not intentionally, but they just don't know... you know, they don't know when to hold back and when not. I've had, I've had male students go off on females. And, and we end that immediately. And then we step in and we rock his world and we let them know that there's consequences for doing that kind of stuff. You know, we're trying to hurt our students. So, um, so yeah. I, um... yeah. I... it's very, it's very valuable. So, hopefully they won't get away from doing that.

[28:49] Speaker 1: So, well, if you guys are ready, um, to go to a story with a video component, we've got a, uh... and I can take things out of order. If you guys see something that you like better than another. Uh, but the, uh, the first one that I have coming up here, it's our, our female armed robbery suspect, which is a little usual 'cause it's not like she was with a dude. She's just solo. She's just on her own. And then you start watching the video and I... you know, you don't even think that she's the robber, right? When you're... she's just behind, behind the counter working at a convenience store. So, this, the story is at rumble.com, our favorite law enforcement video channel called This is Better. And, it... This is Better gets the videos out before, like, anybody. And, a female armed robbery suspect fatally shot by LAPD, um, when she pointed a, a pellet gun at them. Of course, they didn't know at the time what it was.

[29:33] Speaker 6: Go outside. Go outside. Turn around. Turn around. You're gonna get tased. It's gonna hurt really bad. I sure will. Okay. Listen. No, you listen. Turn around or you're gonna get tased. You're not even roped off.

[29:43] Speaker 3: It's fricking cold in here.

[29:44] Speaker 6: Yeah. Okay? All right. Your... who's your authority? Who is? Dude. Because it's me. Okay? Hey, um, can you just stay on her? Hey. We don't, we don't wanna hurt your dog. Listen.

[29:58] Speaker 5: Hey. Don't grab anything.

[29:59] Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm grabbing. Hey, hey.

[30:02] Speaker 5: Don't grab anything.Hey. Hey. Don't grab anything. Hey. (gun firing)

[30:16] Speaker 1: Um, so we're in, uh, Gar- Gardena or Gardenia, California, wherever that is. It's in the ... I guess it's in the LA area. It's, uh, about 11:15 PM in the evening. Officers assigned to the LAPD Southeast Patrol Division. They get a radio call about a robbery in progress at a convenience store, and so they roll there. But before they get there, we've got inside surveillance camera what's going on. (laughs) And I gotta admit, I mean, look, I'm laughing. This is before she dies though, okay? But it's kind of entertaining. Uh, so before, uh, I mean, I'm, I'm reading, you know, the story kind of happens what, you know, talks about what happens when the, when the cops get there. But, but let me tell you what happens before they get there. You've got, you've got customers that are inside and she's just taking items and food and just pelting people with it, right? I mean, she's, like, throwing stuff over the counter. They're, like, taking cover. And she's just, like, grabbing ...

[31:02] Speaker 1: She's behind the counter where the clerk would be, just grabbing st- ... items and just throwing it at people. And then finally the cops get there. And they've got a number of probably four or five officers, men and women. And so when they get there, they see her. She's a 53-year-old Cynthia Ann Ivy Akers. So she's got four names. So I suspect that there's a couple of, uh, of, uh, of, um, men out there that could ... that own some of those last names that could provide some intel- ... interesting intelligence on her. And I'll just leave it at that. But s- ... she's standing behind the convenience store counter, and the officers issue, uh, multiple verbal, verbal commands to her, a- and she's refusing to comply, of course. And, um, and then she suddenly moves towards the counter. So she's moving close to them, but she's got the counter where you can't really see her hands and stuff. And she pulls out a, a handgun from a zippered bag right at the time she's doing that.

[31:49] Speaker 1: And there's a dog on the ground, uh, back on the counter with her too, and they never said what happened to the dog. I hope the dog wasn't hit when the gunfire started. But you've got a cop, a pretty big dude, walking around to go inside the counter, um, to, to handle her, because she's, like, being belligerent and stuff to these guys. Right when that cop goes to do that, she produces the handgun. She doesn't point it at him, but she starts pointing it at the direction of th- these other officers that are on the other side of the counter from her, 'cause there's like, like I said, about four or five. And then they, they pretty much light her up. And the dog's, like, freaking out all over the floor. And, uh, and so I know everybody's worried about the dog. I don't know what happened with the dog. I couldn't find out. But, uh, she ended up be- being hit by gunfire. They took her into custody. She died at the scene. They called the paramedics and tried to save her and they couldn't.

[32:31] Speaker 1: The investigation later determined that she had a pellet gun in her hand. Of course no way to know that before the shots went off. So that's pretty much the way that went down. Any, uh, any commentary on that gentlemen? It was a, um ... It was a pretty ... Well, we got ... Well, you know what? I take that back. We got 20 seconds, don't we? So, uh, th- this commercial break snuck up on me, so I apologize. When we come back from commercial break, we'll break this down, but, uh, this is our third commercial break, guys. Stick with us. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about GunLearn at GunLearn.com. You know, they've got some new stuff going on. And everybody knows that they offer a certified firearms specialist degree, but now they've partnered up with Smarter Degree, and now that is worth college credits. Even if you've got the certified, uh, firearms specialist, uh ...

[33:11] Speaker 1: you got that certification ma- maybe five years ago, you can still convert it to college, uh, credits, which is fantastic. And of course, Smarter Degrees, it's their university partners. And so whether you're pursuing a degree or looking to maximize the value of your education, this partnership opens up a new pathway to academic recognition for your firearms training. And GunLearn, of course, is the first and only company that offers a step-by-step program that takes you from your present knowledge level to become a safe, accurate, and competent certified firearms specialist. And they've been doing this since 1996, and they taught everything that Leos need to know about firearms and also ammunition to all facets of law enforcement. And if you have your own agency, you can host a seminar for absolutely no cost. An amazing opportunity. You can go to GunLearn.com to get more information. Again, that is GunLearn.com. Welcome back.

[33:55] Speaker 1: Leo Roundtable at LeoRoundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host. And we're joined by Comply Technology's very own CEO, Jeff Nikolis, and also Dan DaLaCruz. So that is kind of a col- ... I gotta say that one more time. Dan DaLaCruz. I gotta put the emphasis on the Cruz, 'cause that's, you know ... Kind of a cool name, Dan. I don't know how you did that, but-

[34:15] Speaker 5: Well, what does it mean?

[34:16] Speaker 1: It wasn't you. (laughs) Well, I guess not. So-

[34:17] Speaker 5: What does it mean?

[34:19] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was ever-

[34:20] Speaker 5: What ... You tell me. What does it mean? Do you know?

[34:23] Speaker 1: I have no idea. I mean, my wife is Colombian, but I'd be-

[34:26] Speaker 5: How about Jeff?

[34:27] Speaker 2: Well, what's the, what's the word for Cruz? It's Dan of the Cruz, of, of the ...

[34:33] Speaker 5: It's Dan of the Cross.

[34:35] Speaker 2: Oh, okay. There you go. Very good.

[34:39] Speaker 1: Really? Oh, nice.

[34:39] Speaker 2: I like it.

[34:41] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[34:41] Speaker 2: Now I know.

[34:42] Speaker 5: Tha- I would say Crux.

[34:42] Speaker 2: I, I would say it would be n- ... So crux would be the, uh, Greek term for that, I guess. So-

[34:47] Speaker 1: (laughs) You guys are getting deep now.

[34:50] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[34:51] Speaker 1: Well, so are you guys ready to cover the other story with the video component, or anything you wanna add on the, uh, armed robbery with a female?

[34:57] Speaker 5: Uh, I don't have much. I mean, they did what they had to do. I mean, you point any kind of gun at somebody, you're gonna do it. Un- unfortunately. Uh, there's really not a whole lot of choice in that matter. She's, she's got herself locked, pinned behind that counter. She's in a good, solid st- position there. She points something at you, you're, you're gonna have to do what you have to do, unfortunately.

[35:21] Speaker 2: It, i- i- she, she knew she had a pellet gun. And I, I think you look with these behavioral health issues and you look what's going on in the country, uh, you know, I just kind of term that as death by cop. She automatically knew it was gonna happen. She, she knew that it was probably her last day on the Earth and I think, um, you know, it's putting these ... People are put in these positions where you have to respond to these things and it's unfortunate. But, uh, it is what it is.

[35:48] Speaker 1: Well, tha- ... And, a- am I wrong for being more worried about the dog than her?

[35:53] Speaker 2: No, I'd be worried. Hey, listen. The animals suffer at the consequence of man, right? I mean, I live out in the country. I see what people do to animals all the time. It's like I don't know how they get their mind wrapped around that. And it gives you a good idea of what their character is all about, uh, when they do- ... when they disregard the lives of animals that entrust them for safety.

[36:13] Speaker 1: I hear you, oh, yeah.

[36:14] Speaker 5: ... security, well, domesticated him, so...

[36:16] Speaker 1: Well, guys, at rumble.com, we got our next story. This butters the channel. Sacramento Police body cam of a officer shooting a suspect armed with a knife near elementary school.

[36:27] Speaker 3: Sir, what do you need from me? Can I help you? Put down the knife, please, I don't want to hurt you. Just put it down. Sir, put it down. Don't do it. Don't do it, sir. Please! You gotta put it down. You gotta put it down. Listen, don't do it. No, it's not. I will shoot you. Put down the knife now. Sir, please! Don't do it! Don't do it!

[36:56] Speaker 7: Drop it!

[36:57] Speaker 3: Drop it! Drop it!

[36:59] Speaker 7: Drop it!

[36:59] Speaker 3: Drop it! Drop the knife now! Drop the knife! Hey, give me a less lethal. Drop the knife.

[37:04] Speaker 7: Drop the knife. Drop the knife.

[37:05] Speaker 3: Drop the knife.

[37:06] Speaker 7: Drop it!

[37:06] Speaker 3: Drop it!

[37:06] Speaker 7: Drop it, please.

[37:07] Speaker 3: Drop it. No! No!

[37:09] Speaker 7: No, no, no, no. Sir

[37:10] Speaker 3: Hey, gimme a taser and a less lethal now! Drop it, drop it, drop it! (gun firing)

[37:17] Speaker 7: Ah, ah, ah, ah.

[37:19] Speaker 3: 16 shots fired. Shots fired. One down. Code three fire. Sir, where's the knife?

[37:24] Speaker 7: Mm, mm. Drop the knife

[37:25] Speaker 3: Where is it? Where is it? Hold it. No, stay with me. Stay with me.

[37:29] Speaker 7: Mm, mm, mm. Over here <|agent|><|en|

[37:31] Speaker 3: W- where's the knife?

[37:32] Speaker 7: Drop the knife.

[37:33] Speaker 3: Hey, get... Stay down, stay down. Stay down. You got it? All right. Moving, moving.

[37:40] Speaker 1: So, yeah, I'm glad they put that in the title because, you know, when we get calls at schools, especially elementary schools, there's a little bit of a pucker factor. You know, we've... There have been situations before where... a- and you don't always know when school's in session, when school's, you know, not. I was driving by an elementary school here where I live and, and, and y- you know, they get out early a lot of times, but not necessarily. There's after-school functions. So, when you get a guy that's on the campus or close to it, and let's just say that he gets away from you and he gets in there, there's some, there's some really bad things that can happen. You want to avoid that at all costs. So, we're in Sacramento, California. So the Sacramento Police Department on, on Sunday night releases body cam footage of an officer. He shot a suspect near an elementary school. This happened, um, last month in the North Gate area.

[38:23] Speaker 1: Police said this started around 6:45 in the evening on March the 10th, and dispatch got a call that there was a guy on a school campus with a knife and that he would chase anyone who approached him. Now, later in the article, it's gonna tell you that the dude that called i- is the dude that we're talking about. (laughs) He called on himself and he said, "There's a dude with a knife and he's gonna chase anybody approaching." It's, it's him and he, and he calls, he calls 911. So, uh, they didn't give the name of the school, but it does make note that the, uh, the report of the call was near the Hazel Strauch Elementary School. So, I suspect that that's the school we're talking about. The Sacramento County Sheriff's Office, um, now th- this is the Sacramento Police involved, but it's kind of cool, they've got a partnership with the sheriff's office and they're using the sheriff's office, you know, air service, their, their helicopter.

[39:12] Speaker 1: So they actually locate this dude walking in front of the school a- and, and holding a knife. And I, I don't think that it said that the school was on lockdown. I, I certainly hope that they were. That's what I would have done. Uh, but the dude's outside the school and he's got a knife in his possession. Helicopter, they spot it. They're communicating with the police department, a different agency. And the deputies, um, well, it says, police said the deputies were telling the suspect to drop the knife. So they probably got the story wrong. I think that it was the police that responded and did this. But in any case, he's, he's um, he's not compliant, does not drop the knife. And matter of fact, the officer that pulled up, um, you know, was asking him, um, I believe where the knife, where the knife was at and stuff initially, but then the guy, you know, had the knife. He's walking towards the officer and the officer's pointing a gun at the bad guy.

[39:55] Speaker 1: Officer's made multiple commands for the suspect to drop the knife. They tried to deescalate, uh, but they said that he refused and continued to walk towards officers. And we had at least one officer fire their weapon, and there was also a taser that was fired about the same time as well. I know the one officer, he was just, like, frantically trying to get the, you know, get me non-... get me less lethal, get me less lethal. The suspect was detained. They did medical, they provided medical attention for him. He suffered one gunshot wound to the stomach. 29-year-old Jamal Deerman was his name. Taken to the hospital, but he ended... c- he survived. He got booked for multiple counts for the deadly weapon and they determined that, uh, that he was the person that called dispatch, of course, and they located the, the, the knife after he was shot as well. And going back on my, on my show notes, I think that that pretty much covers it every time.

[40:41] Speaker 1: They, uh, as, as frantically as the officer, the main officer was trying to get ahold of less lethal, they didn't utilize it until the dude was close enough where they had to go lethal. So, that would be about the only question I had. It seemed like one guy was really super... Well, this is California, so they're really gonna be pushing that, you know, that, um, deescalation strategy. Remember, they're more of a, of a, of a necessary, you know, standard a- as opposed to a reasonable standard. Uh, but I- I'm surprised that they didn't have the 40 millimeter foam round or anything else, you know, that they were gonna use and they let the guy get that close, but, um, commentary on this, gentlemen?

[41:19] Speaker 5: Yeah, I was surprised how long it took for them to get, uh... Well, they didn't get it there, but get less lethal involved. Uh, but at, at first I thought maybe he was just alone, but he was, he was asking for help. So, I, I don't know exactly what happened, uh, but it, it was... There was a lot of time between what happened and didn't happen. With the... Like you said, he's near a school and everything, and I think they should have just... The, the knife was out and present, uh, I would imagine going less lethal immediately. There should have been no waiting, th- in my opinion.

[41:54] Speaker 1: Let me ask you guys something. You get a guy with a knife, and I, I understand that, and I'm talking about the glove here. So with the glove, it's a hands-on device, which is what I love about it. You're, you're gonna go hands-on, right? But let's say that you've got a guy with a knife, and let's just say that for whatever reason, you tase him, you beanbag him or whatever, and he, and he, and he, he goes down and he drops the knife, but-... the knife is still, he's, the knife is still right there. He's wi- he's within either crawling distance or reaching distance of that knife. How, uh, how wise would it be, could you go in and use the glove in a situation like that, in case the guy decided to go for the knife while you're trying, you're, you're, you're moving in to handcuff this dude, but it's close enough to where it's a potential threat?

[42:37] Speaker 5: I guess my response to that would be, wh- wh- which we've shown time and time again, what the glove does is change an individual's mind. From whatever they were thinking about doing or wanting to do, they forget what they're gonna do. So if his, if his option was to reach for the knife or crawl for the knife and we make contact with him, uh, he's not go- he's not gonna remember that's what he wanted to do. But that would go back to a, a training protocol. Whether I would tell somebody to move in that quickly or not would, it would all be s- scenario based on, on the, on the actual situation. You're, you're gonna have to respond to that, eh, to what you believe is safest.

[43:15] Speaker 5: That's, that's-

[43:16] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[43:16] Speaker 5: ... my take.

[43:17] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[43:18] Speaker 2: One of the things that we don't do, Chip, is, is tell guys how and when to deploy the tool. It's an option, and then they, they kind of know what's gonna happen. But it's all situational, situational awareness. It has to do with the training competency and competence of the officer. It also has to do with their current TTPs and their procedure, so, and their policy. So, I, I just, um, it's hard to say one way or the other. I do know for a fact that I believe, um, that we could have prevented, for example, the, the shootings in Minneapolis and the officer getting his finger bit off because the officers had multiple contacts with the subjects before they either put the car in drive or reached for a weapon. So, I believe that we would have had different outcomes. It's possible and plausible, and I believe probable that we, uh, would have, may had a different outcome there.

[44:11] Speaker 1: Yeah, a good point. I, and I, I totally, I totally agree with that, too. And, and like in this case, when I gotta move in, let's just say the guy's unresponsive, but maybe he's faking it, you know? I gotta go in and I gotta go, I gotta go 10-15. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta put handcuffs on this guy, and I'm gonna get him in a three-point pin. When I go there, I can wear my gloves. I can shoot with my gloves. I can work an expandable baton with my gloves. I can do all that stuff. I would, I would move in with my gloves on.

[44:36] Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

[44:36] Speaker 1: And, and even have them, even have them activated, uh, until the point, you know, I had, I, uh, I was in maybe handcuffing mode or maybe I'm just, if I'm gonna e- be working with the handcuffs and, uh, and working with metal, maybe have the, uh, another guy put the cuffs on, the bracelets on. But at least if he broke bad, I could end it like that. And, uh, because, because you remember-

[44:56] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[44:56] Speaker 1: ... the safe word that we have when I got gloved by Dan, it works well. I still can't remember the safe word, Dan.

[45:02] Speaker 5: (laughs)

[45:02] Speaker 1: It's still out of my head.

[45:05] Speaker 5: (laughs)

[45:06] Speaker 1: So ... (laughs)

[45:06] Speaker 5: (laughs) Hey, but you, you made it like rutabaga or something like that, didn't you?

[45:09] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

[45:10] Speaker 5: (laughs)

[45:11] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was, it was stuff. It was pretty simple.

[45:13] Speaker 5: (laughs)

[45:13] Speaker 1: I just couldn't believe I couldn't remember it. But you were, you sold me on that. I mean, you told me that, what it did and it, the thoughts in your brain would just like-

[45:21] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[45:21] Speaker 1: And man, you, you guys were so right, so.

[45:23] Speaker 5: That's why I laughed when you said, "What's the safe word?" I said, "Go ahead with the safe word." (laughs)

[45:27] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[45:28] Speaker 5: (laughs)

[45:28] Speaker 1: Oh, that's okay. All right.

[45:32] Speaker 5: La, la, la, I think you got the safe word.

[45:32] Speaker 1: All right. Uh, Jeff Nickless, Dan De La Cruz, thank you guys so much for being on the show. It's been a great show. Also, a shout-out to our sponsors, galls.com, complianttechnologies.com, your company. We got gunlearner.com, americanlifesaverrecruiting.com and twobells.com. We'll look for everybody back tomorrow, 12:00 noon Eastern. And thanks for watching the show. (upbeat music)