[00:13] Speaker 1: Welcome to Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I'm your host. We're a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a law enforcement perspective. And let me introduce the crew. Guys, if you don't mind waiting for the video portion of our show, uh, we have got, uh, Dr. Darin Porcher, retired lieutenant from New York Police Department, NYPD. Uh, thanks so much for tearing yourself away from Fox News, CNN, Newsmax, and all those sources. And then we've got, uh, Sergeant Jamie Borden, Borden, uh, you know, retired sergeant also, the founder of Critical Incident Review. And hey, Jamie's got some new stuff that we're gonna be talking about in a few minutes. So, uh, he's got some new books that are on the table.

[00:52] Speaker 1: And, and I, I'm interested in, in the one that you, kind of, uh, y- you, kind of, implied through the title that I think it's a- addressed for, like, police leaders and stuff, so I, I can't wait to hear about that and, and, and how you simply... You, you should do, your, your next one, Jamie, should be a time management book and tell us how you're able to do it, 'cause that's really the one that's gonna be most valuable to me. Uh, so thanks, guys, for being on the show. Uh, shout out to our sponsors. You know, our title sponsor is Gulls at gulls.com. Don't forget, they've got that 15% off. Uh, discount code, it's RADIO15, so type in RADIO15 next time you go to gulls.com to get 15% off. And we've also got compliantetechnologies.com, our satellite sponsor, and yeah, I spoke with the CEO, Jeff Nicholas, this morning, great guy. Uh, we have gunlearn.com, mymedicare.live. We have safeguardrecruiting.com. They did our new online store at leoroundtable.com, and also, twobells.com.

[01:40] Speaker 1: Actually, Safeguard is our streaming sponsor. We're streaming to about a million people during the live show right now thanks to them. Two Bells built a new online store at leoroundtable.com, upper right corner. You can get cool gear, shirts, mugs, like the one behind me, so check that out. A shout-out to Bryan Burns for the Tampa Free Press at tampafe.com. Thanks for carrying our content, Bryan, and getting us on, uh, MSN. Also, Ray Dietrich from alarmin.com, and our very own Travis Yates with lawofficer.com. Thanks to all those entities for helping make this show happen. And now, what in the world are we talking about today with these two great experts? Well, we're gonna, we're gonna throw 'em, we're gonna throw 'em in the fire. We're talking about, um, the attempted as- assassination, the, the latest one, on President Trump at the White House Correspondents', uh, Dinner. And then we're gonna talk about a jury award.

[02:21] Speaker 1: It's 2.25 million to a Riverside County sergeant who was forced to resign after reporting harassment. But, i-it, it's interesting how they did it, how they forced him a- and, and, and why the jury sided with him. Then we've got some stories with video components. We have a man who had a 13-inch kitchen knife at a New York, uh, City grocery store that Darin is probably familiar with, and police ended up shooting him. And then we've got, uh, body cam footage released after a guy, uh, well, he's accused of biting a police canine during a Florence arrest, and you can see him do it. Um, then we've got, uh, badge/gun, PTSD. Texas Supreme Court backs the DPS firing of a ranger after school standoff. And if we have time to get to the last two, LAPD officers injure a suspect in a shooting. Uh, the guy was armed with a, he had a gun and a, and a, and a knife, and, uh, well, it wasn't really a gun. It was one of those, you know, BB pellet guns. And then we have, uh, right thing to do.

[03:15] Speaker 1: We have a Kansas paramedic being... Tryna, they're trying to punish him for treating a dying police canine. Um, so that's an interesting story. And I've been wanting to cover that. We just haven't had the time. So, we got eight and a half minutes before we take our first commercial break, so if you guys are ready, um, let's jump into it. And, you know, y- yesterday, we covered this. Um, today, I'm gonna break 'em up into sections, so I read, I read through everything. So I've got, I think, four articles dealing with this, um, from the White House Correspondents. Let's start it off with, um, tampafreepress.com. We've got... All four articles are coming from the Tampa Free Press. We've got the California man charged with attempted assassination of President Trump after the White House Correspondents' Association dinner attack.

[03:57] Speaker 1: And we really weren't sure about all the charges, but, uh, this guy appeared in federal court on Monday, uh, to face charges of attempting to assassinate President Donald Trump. And so, that is already out there. Um, and y- you did hear s- you did hear stories about a Secret Service agent being shot. I have noticed them walking that back right away. What I suspect has happened, and I haven't seen this out yet, Darin or, or Jamie might know more, but, um, I suspect it was a friendly fire shot. He got shot, was saved by his vest, and I suspect because they're backing away from this, the, that, that storyline, that... I- i- and looking at the video, even though it was poorly done, um, I suspected maybe it was a friendly fire incident. These guys were shooting at this running bad guy, and the agent got hit. But I don't know that for sure. Um, any commentary yet on that? I know we have some other articles coming up.

[04:46] Speaker 1: The next one is, uh, Trump talking on 60 Minutes, but, um, if, if there's no commentary yet, we'll jump into that one then. I know that at 60 Minutes, Trump sat down, and he talked about the White House shooting. It didn't go, go exactly as, as planned, or maybe it did. You know, he talked to Norah O'Donnell, and, you know, she started reading statements from the manifesto for the bad guy, and I'm not gonna list- say the bad guy's name, but she started using words like pedophile and rapist and, and, you know, she wanted to see what kind of a rise she could get from our president, a- a- and she did. Um, I had some, I had a guest on yesterday that had an issue with how the president handled that. Um, two of us did not. Um, I- I still, I've gone back and rewatched it. I still don't have an issue with him defending himself, saying, "Look, I'm not a pedophile.

[05:32] Speaker 1: I'm not a rapist." But I, I, I, I, I ex- I was gonna wait and see whether you brought that up, you know, Norah O'Donnell, and she did. And he said he was really disappointed for her and her people that they allowed her to do that. And, uh, so that's, that's the point, but I'm loo- I'm, kind of, curious what you guys think about that. Sergeant Jamie?

[05:49] Speaker 2: Uh, well, I mean, I, I'm still stuck on the, uh, obviously the law enforcement prong of this, where the...... you know, the shot was more potentially a friendly shot than, uh, you know, we have blue on blue shootings all the time and it really comes down to the chaos of those scenes, an officer not being able to process that visual field, not seeing something until it enters that one to two degrees of foveal vision, the shot's already been fired (laughs) and we end up having an officer, you know, shot blue on blue. I've had multiple cases where that's been the case. But, uh, yeah, on, on the argument side of it, I'll, I'll let, I'll let Dr., uh, Porcher handle that. I'm, I'm a little bit out of touch on the political aspect of that shooting. I was more looking at it from a, a tactics point of view.

[06:40] Speaker 1: Yeah. I, I, you know, I know when the, when the bad guy was running, the, um, and, and Jamie's trying to tell Darren that his mic is still muted, but, uh, when the bad guy was running, the Secret Service agent-

[06:53] Speaker 3: Okay.

[06:53] Speaker 1: ... out of the peripheral vision, saw him coming, um, if he, if the agent wouldn't have seen it coming, the bad guy would have run, I- I'm assuming right into him. Barely, the agent barely got out of the way, but then everybody was drawing down as the guy's trying to breach the doors, and, um, and I'm assuming that's when the agent got hit. Uh, but Dr. Darren?

[07:12] Speaker 3: Well, just from a tactical perspective, uh, I've done many of these, uh, United, UN General Assembly, uh, details, and I've actually been on president, presidential details for George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and President Obama. Um, when they traditionally come into the city of New York, they'll stay in hotels, and we have a, there are two hotels in particular that they will, the presidents, the sitting presidents will stay in. Um, the one thing, one point of contention that I had was the assailant in this case as it relates to the assassination attempt on Trump was he came down ten flights of stairs and entered a hallway one, um, one floor above. We would always have someone with machine guns in those stairwells. So, like, that just totally baffled me that he was able to travel the stairwell in a hotel that was occupied by civilians. They should've known better and I'm just speaking of my experience in working these presidential details.

[08:14] Speaker 3: And him getting as far as he got, it begs the question of were the fortifications adequate? You have a, an assemblance of different security zones. The one thing that happened was they had a metal detector inside of the venue, and I, you know, I understand it from one perspective of you can control, you, you can much better control the environment if you have the metal detector inside. However, I believe that there should've been a layered security approach.

[08:43] Speaker 3: When I say a layered security approach-

[08:43] Speaker 1: Yeah. And we covered this on yesterday's show, but, uh, but yeah, yeah, you're, you're, you're absolutely right. Um, I, I kind of want to focus more on the, um, 'cause, 'cause yesterday we covered, um, and, and I know that we're having our Secret Service counterparts coming on later in the week when we get a little bit more information coming up, but Rich Steri, Steripolli was all over Fox right on, on Sunday, right? And, and, you know, this whole thing with the, the rhetoric, I know that we're getting ready, the other stories that we're talking about is going to be, um, we've got, you know, our press secretary, you know, Karine Levi, Levitt, um, she's going to be talking, but she's using this as a way to try to fund DHS because we have a funding issue. And then, of course, we've got, uh, what Jimmy Kimmel said about Melania Trump and, and, you know, it's just this rhetoric that's going on.

[09:29] Speaker 1: And of course, now we've got this, on this 60 Minutes, uh, interview with President Trump, and he gave them, he didn't have to give them the interview, gave them the interview, but they're starting off just, just you, you know they know that our attempted assassin is speaking about the president when he's talking about people, about him, about someone being a pedophile and a rapist, but he only is saying that because of what the left-leaning woke media has been saying about Trump himself. I mean, the only other words he could've said were, like, communist and fascist, you know? So, um, that's kind of where I'm, I'm hoping to go because if that doesn't get cr- cr- uh, fixed, or there's no repercussions for that, and I know that we've got the First Amendment issues, but, you know, this, we're going to keep having assassinations and we, we got to keep this guy alive.

[10:13] Speaker 3: Well, well, Chip, uh, I, you know, what Norah O'Donnell did was she read the manifesto, and I thought that it was appropriate to read the manifesto as to this is what this individual stated. And it gave the president the opportunity to respond to it. Uh, you know, I mean, you, you-

[10:31] Speaker 1: Well, she read-

[10:31] Speaker 3: ... you can-

[10:31] Speaker 1: She didn't read the manifesto. She read a section or sections of the manifesto. I mean-

[10:37] Speaker 3: Okay, even, all right, even if she did-

[10:39] Speaker 1: I mean, come on. In all honesty.

[10:41] Speaker 3: ... even if she did, even if she did compartmentalize, um, she was presenting information in a manifesto that was produced by the assailant in this particular case. Um, to each his own. Um, there's two ways he could've handled it. He could've just said simply, "Hey, look, I'm not a pedophile." Or whatever, which would've been fine. But-

[10:59] Speaker 1: That's what he said.

[11:00] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[11:00] Speaker 3: Right, right, but then there, it followed with an attack, a personal attack, you know, um, "You're a disgrace."

[11:06] Speaker 1: Have, have you saw something? I didn't, I didn't see a personal attack at all.

[11:08] Speaker 3: I, I, I, I saw the interview in its entirety. And it did-

[11:12] Speaker 1: I, I did, too.

[11:13] Speaker 3: Right. You didn't see-

[11:13] Speaker 1: Well, I didn't, I never... Did he, did he ever raise his voice?

[11:16] Speaker 3: No, but you didn't see when he referred to her as a disgrace?

[11:21] Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but he said it very calmly and he said that, "You're a disgrace." And then he talked about her network. But there was no elevated voice.

[11:28] Speaker 2: And here's, here's, here's, here's the issue that, that, that we have is that, uh, you know, the, the left and the right, it's become more than Democrat and Republican, right? It's, it's, it's now conservative and extreme liberal, or extreme conservative. And I'll tell you what, when it comes to these narratives, the narrative is sectionalized and cherry-picked to create an issue. And that's what happened, and I think Trump handled it very well.

[11:53] Speaker 1: We're going to a commercial break. Thanks, Jamie. Perfect timing. We'll be right back, guys.My family only cares about one thing: that I come home safe.

[12:04] Speaker 4: At Gulls, every order begins with a promise. Made with purpose. Stitched for support. Backed with pride. Answered by dedicated hands. Delivering the standard you have sworn to uphold. We serve more than the mission; we serve the person. Each piece is engineered to help get our first responders through the shift and back home safe.

[12:56] Speaker 1: Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlanc and I'm your host. We are joined by Lieutenant Darin Porcher, Dr. Darin Porcher, retired from NYPD. Also, Sergeant Jamie Borden, and he is the founder of Critical Incident Review, and we're gonna be talking about some books of his in a second. We've been talking about the White House press dinner assassination attempt, and we've got a couple more stories that we're gonna get to in that. But while I'm looking at the screen, we got people weighing in from YouTube and Facebook and Rumble and all over the place. We've got Stams, uh, Sam Smith saying that it looks staged to him. Um, I know that yesterday we covered a, uh, a Green Beret that's on social media, uh, who said it was definitely staged and stuff. And guys, please, please be educated. And, and, and, and when you say things like that, that obviously are not true, it, it, it, it, it doesn't do you any good.

[13:51] Speaker 1: (laughs) It doesn't do you any justice. So, so, i- it's not staged, um, when people start getting shot and stuff, um, and, and you're listening to the... My first question would be, what media sources are you listening or following when you would even say something like that? And, um, but anyhow, that said, uh, in, in talking about it, I know that we haven't made the turn yet. We're still on the 60 Minutes portion of it, but Sergeant Jamie?

[14:12] Speaker 2: Um, y- yeah. I, I mean, I think I said everything that I needed to say. And, and on these, on these narratives that come up, and, and this was, you know, when we pigeonhole things and, and we cherry-pick to create a narrative, it, it becomes a passionate belief, not an objective opinion, right? And there's a difference between a passionate belief of a certain thing and a dispassionate, objective, uh, review or, or research on the project. If you're gonna claim something, and this goes to, you know, the entire listenership, anybody who, who is in the classes I'm in, I... What I say is up for debate. I don't ever contend to be the most right person in the room, I- the, the most correct. Everything is up for debate. These opinions that come up about things being staged and all of that, what is your... What is the substantive evidence beyond what you think, feel and believe? Because I don't care what you think, I don't care what you feel, and I don't care what you believe.

[15:13] Speaker 2: I care what you know, what you understand, and what you can explain. Those are the things I care about. And unless I can do that, I don't have an opinion.

[15:22] Speaker 1: Yeah. So this next one... And thank you, uh, thank you, Jamie. How many more-

[15:26] Speaker 3: Can I get something in there before you go, go into that, Chip?

[15:28] Speaker 1: Oh. Go ahead. Yes.

[15:30] Speaker 3: Hey, Jamie, did you see A Few Good Men?

[15:32] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

[15:32] Speaker 3: Jack Nicholson?

[15:34] Speaker 2: Yep.

[15:35] Speaker 3: "I don't give a damn about what you think."

[15:40] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[15:40] Speaker 1: (laughs) Yeah. Right.

[15:41] Speaker 3: I just want to staple that onto your statement there, Jamie. Go ahead.

[15:44] Speaker 2: (laughs) . Perfect timing.

[15:45] Speaker 3: Press on, Chip.

[15:46] Speaker 1: Good, good, good segue. Good segue for that, Jamie. Uh, so, so how many more press secretary slams rhetoric, uh, funding gaps after third assassination attempt? So White House Press Secretary Karine, uh, you know, Levitt, a- and she's supposed to be having a baby, and she returned to the briefing room on Monday to address the public following this attempted assassination of, of Donald Trump, the latest one. And beyond the security threat, she used the briefing to make a, a, a demand for funding for Department of Homeland Security. She said the agency's been shuttered for 73 days. So think about that. That's about two and a half months, marking the longest shutdown of a federal agency in US history. And she emphasized that the Secret Service, which is a component of DHS, is being forced to operate under reckless political games- gamesmanship while protecting the president, the vice president, and the cabinet. You know, it's not just the president.

[16:37] Speaker 1: And she said, "Hey, make no mistake, the defunding of DHS should be a national scandal." And she said, "The Democrats' obstruction is placing an enormous and totally pointless burden on the Secret Service that can get more people killed." And then she brought up, we've got World Cup coming up, America's 250th anniversary, the 2028 Olympics, and the administration's urging Congress to end the 73-day standoff, provide full funding for the department immediately. She concluded by calling the situation a national emergency, urging lawmakers to put the country over party. Wow. Sergeant Jamie?

[17:10] Speaker 2: You know, if they can... Why don't they just take the money that they're recovering from the fraud in Minnesota and, and get these people back on the payroll? What's going on with this country right now? I mean, to the tune of tens of billions of dollars in fraud, and yet DHS, right? The core of our country's safety is, is on shutdown? I don't understand it. It doesn't make any sense to me. And you know what? It's just a filtration of the defund the police kind of environment, right?

[17:39] Speaker 2: Where-

[17:40] Speaker 1: It is.

[17:41] Speaker 2: And, and it's, it, it's... The, the rhetoric, to me, is senseless, and we, we turn our backs on, on this, this just completely irrelevant. There, the, the, the fraud things, thi- the issues that we've got going on in the country where literally taxpayers are being soaked for billions and billions of dollars. And, you know, plug the holes and put, and put the...

[18:06] Speaker 5: Put the cargo back where it goes, you know? That's just-

[18:08] Speaker 1: Ju-

[18:09] Speaker 5: That's ...

[18:10] Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer, I don't know if you saw it, Daryn, the other day. Chuck Schumer went on TV and said that everybody ... And leave your mic open. I'm doing your segue. But, uh, um, Chuck Schumer went on TV and he said, "Hey, everybody, everybody hates ICE and Border Patrol." I don't know if you saw that or not, but that's, that's their point.

[18:27] Speaker 5: (smacks lips) Yeah.

[18:28] Speaker 1: All right. Th- Well, for starters, uh, I live in New York City and we've just been completely overrun with illegal immigration. And the point of contention with this government shutdown-

[18:38] Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

[18:39] Speaker 1: ... under the purview of DHS is ICE. They want some, uh, changes or adjustments, uh, or they want to revolutionize ICE. Uh, but, you know, what baffles me is people are so headstrong on the Trump Administration's moves to protect the border. But believe it or not, President Obama departed- deported far more people than Donald Trump did. And you didn't hear the- the- this, this tremendous, uh, undertone from the Republicans because they understood and they accepted the fact that we needed a strong sense of immigration. Uh, Tom Homan, um, our current bo- Board of Czar was the Board of Czar under, uh, under, uh, former President Obama. That being said, I, I just think that a lot of the politics are putting us as a co- as a country in harms way. Um, granted, President Trump got rid of Kristi Noem. I think that... And, and I don't know a lot of the backstory on it, but at the same token, I supported it.

[19:37] Speaker 1: I believe that Mark Wayne Mullin is a capable and competent person to be at the helm of DHS. But I think that there's a lot more that needs to be done with both parties in the room with the door closed. And then, well, case in point, when we look at the situation with the White House Ballroom, it just kind of amazes me how this has become manifested-

[19:58] Speaker 1: (coughs ... into a court proceeding. Because- Yeah. ... granted, that ballroom is only going to hold a thousand people. But at the same token, it's going to provide a greater sense of fortification and security for our president. Yeah. And I'd say it's even more important right now after, after what just happened. Hey, guys, we're coming up on our next commercial break, so stick with us. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about Compliant Technologies at complianttechnologies.com. And they're committed to providing non-lethal solutions to help officers gain the upper hand safely and rapidly in a humane, low optics manner, utilizing what they call their CD3, which stands for conductive distraction and de-escalation device technology. Now, their flagship product, we all know by now, it's called the Glove. It's not only helped officers tens of thousands of times, but they've actually had over 250,000 deployments and guess what? No injuries, no deaths. Amazing statistic, they've actually, uh, they've actually moved to the non-lethal status in an arena that predominantly can only offer less lethal results. And when it comes to weapons retention transitioning to a sidearm or protected energy weapon, the Glove at complianttechnologies.com, they virtually eliminated weapons confusion. So stay ahead of the game with Compliant Technologies and their revolutionary CD3 that hundreds of agencies have already turned to nationwide. And friends, take it from me, when it comes to safety, this is one of the most common sense, hands-on solutions that's ever come along. So go to complianttechnologies.com today and tell them that Chip sent you. Complianttechnologies.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host. We're joined by Lieutenant Daryn Porcher and we've also got, from NYPD and Sergeant Jamie Borden with Critical Incident Review. And, uh, you know, let's go ahead and move on to this, uh, Melania Trump thing. Uh, we're still talking about the aftermath of the, of the press, uh, shooting, the, the dinner shooting. But Melania Trump rips Jimmy Kimmel's widow gag after DC shooting. Enough is enough. So Melania Trump, she's issued a direct rebuke of a recent joke by late night host Jimmy Kimmel following the shooting at the White House Correspondents Dinner that happened on Saturday. Now, I got to admit that I don't watch Kimmel. Uh, I'm not a big fan of Kimmel, especially some of the rhetoric that he, that he's produced. Um, I, and I... Because of that, I, I was unaware of this. And then during yesterday's live show, I have someone commenting on the stream and a female posted a reference to that, and then other people on the show kind of filled me in on, on what I was unaware of. Um, the First Lady called on ABC to take action after monologue clip from Jimmy Kimmel Live, which I've since seen. Um, it resurfaced in the wake of the violence. During his Thursday broadcast... Now remember, this, this other stuff went down on Saturday. But during the Thursday broadcast, Kimmel performed a parody of the annual dinner delivering a mock monologue in which he remarked that Melania Trump, President Trump's wife, had the glow of a expectant widow, is what he said. The glow of an expectant widow. And that is, like, unforgivable in my book. The joke began circulating widely on social media after a 31-year-old gunman... They gave his name, I'm not giving it, opened fire at the actual event in Washington, DC two days later. And it mak- and, and it makes you wonder, did Kimmel's remarks have anything to do with the, with the assassin, or we, we have reasonably remarks like that made by other people certainly did. Addressing the situation on X on Monday, the First Lady described the late night host comments as corrosive and damaging to the national climate. "Kimmel's hateful and violent rhetoric is intended to divide our country," she wrote. "His monologue about my family is not comedy. His words are corrosive and deepens the political sickness within America." She goes on to say in her statement that she, when she challenged the network's role in broadcasting his material, suggesting that the platform provides him a shield for his commentary. She said, "People like Kimmel should not have the opportunity to enter our homes each evening to spread hate. A coward, Kimmel, hides behind ABC because he knows the network will keep running cover to protect him." The First Lady concluded by saying, "Enough is enough. It's time for ABC to take a stand. How many times will ABC's leadership enable Kimmel's atrocious behavior at the expense of our community?" Sergeant Jamie. Well, I was hoping Daryn would go first because I always occupy too much time. Take it. Take it, Daryn. Oh, there you go. I want to hear what you have to say. (laughs)

[24:04] Speaker 1: We all want to hear what- You know, it's funny, what It's funny, my, 'cause my wife actually knows Trump, um, and she knew him prior to him becoming a president. And, you know, we had this conversation

[24:12] Speaker 3: And there's another tidbit of information that, that later came out. Jimmy Kimmel was mentioning that (laughs) , and I don't know what to say, I agree or disagree with what he said, but he said the reason that the, his statement had nothing that was hyper-focused on an assassination attempt, but the age disproportionality in terms of her being significantly younger than, uh, Trump, and Trump being more likely to die based on him being in his 80s. You know, I, I think whenever you focus on anyone, um, from a morbid perspective in death, I, I, I just don't think that's appropriate, whether it's, um, an elected official or, you know, the commander in chief. I just think that it's, it, it, it's bad comedy to put it, it, it's c- it's distasteful comedy if you wanna put it as that.

[24:59] Speaker 3: And, you know, granted, I understand that these comedians are looking to connect with the level of clickbait, but at the same token, this needs to, there needs to be an appropriate form in which you int- introduce your content. That being said, I think the, uh, the statements by Kimmel were not appropriate and, you know, hopefully he can reel this in or rein this in, because it just continues to happen, not just with Jimmy Kimmel, but a host of other different, whether it's late night hosts or comedians, and it's just not right.

[25:31] Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, uh, you make a good point. You hear, you hear wh- what the context is after the fact, that it's just about an age difference, but that doesn't fix the fact that it followed an assassina- a- assassination attempt at a dinner table with his wife, and the context by the public is taken exactly what the timing is meant to represent. To me, that sounds like an excuse in hindsight. I think it's BS. And this is, this is Kimmel's second offense in this realm where, you know, inappropriate things have been said. I know that there's a freedom of speech, but I agree with you 100%, Dr. Porcher, that, that there's gotta be some kind of, there, you know, the, the application of morbidity and, and all of the things, because it's a direct attempt to dis- to dissect the right and the left and, and separate our country in two sides, which weakens us, and I don't think that's the way to go. I, I'm not an advocate of that at all.

[26:30] Speaker 1: Yeah. And I, yeah, I mean, for both sides. Of course, it's, you know, I'm not used to the, to the, you know, to the right side doing it to the left. We, we typically see it the other way around. Uh, but, but good words, gentlemen. And good breakdown. Now guys, um, we've spent over, uh, half the show, um, kinda getting caught up, and this is, this is gonna be, remain kind of fluid. We're gonna keep having more information that's gonna be coming out about this, but I, I, I have to say, I'm very impressed with the amount of i- information that's been coming out, you know, about the shoo- the shooting, the shooter, and, and all this stuff. Uh, but I know that Sergeant Jamie's got something that he wanted to talk about. You know, this is one of the busiest guys that I know.

[27:05] Speaker 1: Um, I want, I want our wives to hang out with, because my wife loves to complain about how, you know, how I never have time to do anything, and, and I will feel better when she hangs out with your wife and, and, and she's... Man, my wife's gonna think she's got it freaking made. So-

[27:20] Speaker 2: Well-

[27:21] Speaker 1: So tell us what you've got going on and how people can get a hold of your books and, and who your target audience is. J- Jamie Borden.

[27:27] Speaker 2: Sure, yeah. Th- th- so the flip side of that, Chip, is my wife complains if I'm not doing something. So I think that might say something about-

[27:35] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[27:35] Speaker 2: ... yeah, that, uh, fondness, uh, y- you know, that separation creates kind of a, a growth for the marriage. 27 years of me being too busy to spend a lot of time with her. Um, so yeah, I, I, uh, most of you are aware that I have, you know, the first book that I, I published back in, uh, 2024, October, uh, Anatomy of a Critical Incident. And at the time that I published that book, if I'd have put everything in that book that I wanted to, it would have been 1,000 pages long or longer and about this thick and number eight font. Nobody would have been able to read it. So as soon as I finished that book, I started the, the process of, of establishing these other three reference manuals, if you will, kind of a field guide that supports what we talk about in depth in the Anatomy of a Critical Incident. The first one and the one that I think is, is really important in today's climate is the Objective Compass. It's a leadership perspective to force analysis and decision-making.

[28:33] Speaker 2: And, and this, this comes on the heels of especially in this climate shift where a lot of times, the bad optics that, that a department faces and that emotional conductivity that's associated with a bad fact or a bad optic that we see in a video forces a, a risk-averse decision by leaders. And, and I understand why it happens, but that fortitude has to be present to take the time to slow it down. We train our officers to slow it down, right? Take your time. We own the space. What, that's not the issue with leaders.

[29:07] Speaker 2: They rush to a decision to appease the public opinion, to-

[29:11] Speaker 1: Right.

[29:11] Speaker 2: ... remain transparent, with no definition of what transparent actually is. So it's an important book. The other two are reference manuals for the Enhanced Force Investigations Course with the Cognitive Interview, a field guide to refer to, uh, that brings you back into the classroom setting, and then the-

[29:28] Speaker 1: Oh, sweet.

[29:28] Speaker 2: ... Force Analysis Video Examination and Review Manual that really, for those that are tasked with looking at video and understanding the inherent distortions with just the view of video. Forget about the audios aspect of it, but all of those inherent distortions that can affect investigators. So those three books are out now. They all published, uh, about two weeks ago, um, after a, a long, heavy lift of, of just working on these in between cases, and really applying what I'm doing in the cases to the manuals. So it's, it's not so much academic-based as it is, like me and Daren talked about earlier, it's, it's a practitioner's approach. And just to chase the perimeter of ignorance, figure out what you don't know, right?

[30:12] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[30:12] Speaker 2: Know what you don't know, and you're a safer individual.

[30:15] Speaker 3: Thanks for taking that. Can I say something real quick, Chip? Can I say something real quick?

[30:18] Speaker 1: Just clear ignorance. Why, why was he looking at me when he said that, Daryn? (laughter)

[30:21] Speaker 3: Right. No, no, no. I, I, I just want to speak for the listeners, um, from the perspective of the academic and the, uh, practitioner's infusion, this is something that Jamie does. Jamie and I, in all transparency, have been, um, opposing experts in police-involved shooting cases, in criminal cases. So, this is something that Jamie does, so when you look at something, uh, that he's created and printed, this is coming from the perspective of somebody that's, that not only knows the information, but it's been tested in court as a nationally recognized expert. So, I can, I, I can support that what Jamie is speaking to is accurate information. And it's just unfortunate that we don't have experts of his qual- uh, uh, of his qualifications that are out there on these podcasts, or presenting commentary as much as, uh, a person like Jamie. We're just fortunate enough to have his presence on this podcast.

[31:16] Speaker 1: Thank you, Daryn.

[31:17] Speaker 3: So-

[31:17] Speaker 1: I appreciate that. So, so Jamie, I've got that video of Daryn Porcher saying that you are accurate and that he supports you and believes in you

[31:26] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[31:26] Speaker 1: So next time he's opposing counsel, and dude, I've got you covered. I, I will, I will email that. I will make that available, and I'll, I'll put it in a ... I'll make sure that it has audio format on that too, of that MP3. All right. A, a ... And listen, man. It, it isn't about when ... Me and Daryn don't win or lose cases

[31:42] Speaker 3: (laughs)

[31:43] Speaker 1: We, we, uh, we educate the trier of fact, and that's where, you know, reasonable minds can defer. And, uh, I've got a lot of respect for what Daryn does. He's a, uh, prominent figure in our field and I, I enjoy seeing him on all of my news feeds. All right, guys. Gotta go. Here we go. All right, guys. It's time to talk about GunLearn at GunLearn.com, but hey, they've got some new stuff going on. Now, GunLearn is the first and it's the only company to offer a step-by-step program that takes you from your present knowledge level to become a safe, accurate and competent certified firearms specialist. Now, that certified firearms specialist, even if you got that five years ago, there have been some changes. Now, they've hooked up with SmarterDegree and their university, university partners, and now that is worth college credits through SmarterDegree's University Partners Program.

[32:26] Speaker 1: So, to become a firearms sp- specialist through GunLearn.com, now you have the college creds to go ahead and do it. And they've been doing this back since 1996 and they've been teaching LEOs, that's law enforcement officers, everything they need to know about not only firearms, but also ammunition, to all facets of law enforcement. And you can start today with online training, or you can sign up to attend a live seminar. And you can get free training for yourself and the personnel of your agency by hosting a seminar for absolutely no cost. So, if you have your own agency, that's a win. Go to GunLearn.com to get more information and hook up with the founder, Dan O'Kelly. GunLearn.com. Welcome back. LEO Roundtable at LEORoundTable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip Devloc and I'm your host. And we are joined by Dr. Daryn Porcher, retired NYPD lieutenant, and also Sergeant Jamie Borden with Critical Incident Review.

[33:10] Speaker 1: And hey, he just got done talking about, um, his new, his new three books which joins the fourth one, he's got a fifth one on the way, coming soon. It's just kinda crazy, but, uh, CriticalIncidentReview.com. Um, so guys, let's go ahead and ... You know, I, I want to take these, these, um, videos out of order. Let's go to, um ... We've got a story with a video component at rumble.com, our favorite law enforcement video channel called This Is Better. We have body cam footage released after a man is accused of biting a police K9 in Florence and, and he's arrested.

[33:37] Speaker 1: So, we're in Florence

[33:38] Speaker 6: Who bit him?

[33:38] Speaker 7: Get him!

[33:39] Speaker 6: Who bit him? Who bit him? Who bit him? Quit biting! Quit biting! Quit biting! Let go of my dog! Let go of my dog! Let go of my dog! Let go of my dog! Let go of my dog! Let go of my dog! Stop fighting!

[33:57] Speaker 4: My dog got fleas.

[33:59] Speaker 6: Ah! Stop fighting! Knock it off. Knock it off. Knock it off. Hey, man, y'all ...

[34:07] Speaker 1: ... where it's Kentucky. This is how they roll in Kentucky. Uh, a, a Sheffield man is facing multiple charges after authorities say he bit a police K9 during an incident at the scene of a search warrant in Florence. Now, the guy really wasn't involved in the search warrant, but this is kind of typical about how some things can go down. According to the Florence Police Department, the Lauderdale County Drug Task Force, they're doing a search warrant, it's April the 22nd. And, uh, they're getting assistance from the Florence-Lauderdale SWAT team and the department's K9 unit. Okay? So you got all these, these parties are, are there at the party, right? Um, and, and police said that this guy named David Colliver, he's 46 years old, he has no connection to the search warrant whatsoever, but he's like an unseen agitator. He shows up and he's interacting with the officers. They use the word "interacting." He's just like, he's just rubbing everybody the wrong direction.

[34:59] Speaker 1: He's disruptive, he's yelling, uh, at the cops, he's stepping into traffic in the roadway and stuff, even though they're telling him to get away. Uh, and so they just, they finally have to just go put hands on him and, and, and arrest him, so, for obstruction. So, they attempt to arrest him after he continues entering the roadway and disrupting the traffic. And so we got our guy that's wearing the body cam, he's a, uh, a K9 handler, and you see him approaching one of these guys who are going hands-on. And dude, this guy is like, he is like fighting. He's like sideways there, like they have his legs and his upper body's up, uh, against a car and he grabs, they grab his upper body, his legs are sideways. He's like horizontal, he's vertical, he's all over the place fighting these cops. And so we've got our, our ha- K9 handler and he's, um, and he's got the dog so he lets the dog move in. The dog does his thing, so the dog latches onto the bad guy.

[35:45] Speaker 1: So, while this is going on, we've got maybe three or four cops that are, that are, that are on this bad guy. Bad guy reaches down with his right hand 'cause the dog was up on him, 'cause the, the bad guy's kind of being held like horizon- on a horizontal plane, you know? And the dog had its right paw on the bad guy. Bad guy reaches down with his hand, grabs the dog's paws. Now, the K9 handler is saying, "Hey, let go of my dog. Let go of my dog." He didn't want the g- the dog to get injured, and the guy's not freaking letting go. And so finally, um, the guy lets go and then he bends down. How do ... How do these cops ... How is he able to bend down when all these cops are all over? He bends down and he bites the K9. It looks like he bit the K9 in the head area with his mouth. Bad guy does this. And-... the handler just punching the crap out of the, out of the dude in the, in the head, finally getting let go, let go. So anyhow, finally, they get the guy handcuffed.

[36:33] Speaker 1: He's transported to the North Alabama Medical Center, uh, for treatment of his injuries 'cause he had puncture wounds from the K9, uh, before being, uh, booked into the, uh, detention center. So, that's the way, that's the way it went down. Uh, commentary, uh, Dr. Darin Porcher.

[36:48] Speaker 3: You know, I've never seen something like this before and, you know, I, I've been around many instances where we were executing search warrants, uh, with dogs or just, uh, in assemblance to different, um, crowd control strategies that involve dogs where dogs had to make an application. But I've never, in my 20 years, uh, in, in policing observed someone that actually bit the dog. (laughs) It's usually the other way around, right? So, this kinda goes in, in part and parcel with, um, America's funniest videos. Uh, and it's, um, unfortunate because these dogs actually work hard, you know? These dogs, in essence, are cops, you know? And, you know, they really... The dogs will step into zones that we oftentimes, as police officers, may be somewhat hesitant, and that's why we send the dog in. And it's unfortunate this happened to the dog. And, you know, one of the questions is...

[37:39] Speaker 3: Because you had the officers that had some level of a, they, they, uh, of a grip on this subject, I, for the, for the life of me, it baffled me as to how he was able to reach down and bite the dog considering the dogs had an application of restraint on him. But this is one of those things that goes in America's funniest videos.

[37:58] Speaker 2: So, Chip, let me ask this question. What was he charged with? A- a, and I know biting the... Because they, they can't charge him with an assault because it's not a human being. It's a, it's, in most jurisdictions, a K9-

[38:10] Speaker 1: Property.

[38:10] Speaker 2: ... is a pr- it's a, it's property, it's equipment, right? This is... And this is why we, we can't shoot somebody to save a K9. And, and, and that, those, these K9 cases are very complex because of the optics that are involved with it. But in that case, I'd be interested to hear what they actually charged him with.

[38:26] Speaker 1: M- we... I will, I will let you know. See, he's charged with resisting arrest, disorderly conduct, public intoxication, and interfering with a police dog, whatever-

[38:34] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[38:34] Speaker 1: ... whatever that is. And, and, and only a $2,500 bond.

[38:37] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so interfering with a police dog, that's, that's biting it. But this is, you know, this is one of those zombie cats that doing, eating the faces off of people (laughs) under a bridge abutment, right? If you're gonna bite a dog, right?

[38:48] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[38:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, i- i- so these are interesting, in- uh, super interesting cases to me. That is 100% part of resisting arrest. That dog is working as an officer, although any crimes committed against it are property crimes, for all intents and purposes. But in this, you know, interfering with the dog's protocols and procedures, that, that makes complete sense. I, I, I was just wondering what they actually charged him with. But yeah, I'm with, I'm with Dr. Porcher on this. It's, um, you ju- these are, uh, y- you can't make this stuff up, right? I mean, this is (laughs) ... It's just insane.

[39:20] Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna use that as a segue.

[39:21] Speaker 3: Y- you know-

[39:22] Speaker 1: Ho- hold on to that, Darin-

[39:23] Speaker 3: Okay.

[39:23] Speaker 1: ... because we only got three minutes, and I got this last one to get in. But we'll, you can roll that one-

[39:27] Speaker 3: Okay.

[39:27] Speaker 1: ... and this is another K9. kansas.com, right thing to do, so we have this Kansas paramedic won't be punished, so will not be, uh, for treating a dying police dog. So, a, a, a, a Sedgwick County paramedic is not going to be punished, although they were looking at doing that for providing basic life support for a dying law enforcement K9. The dog, the dog did die unfortunately. It was killed in the line of duty in 2023. So the Kansas Board of Emergency Medical Services, they investigated, and they voted on Thursday to dismiss a case brought against a longtime paramedic, Brian Schatteg, uh, who helped law enforcement do CPR on K9 Bane after the dog was strangled by a wanted guy who had crawled into a storm drain in Southeast Wichita. And members of the board, they acknowledged that, um, this paramedic likely broke the rules when he used medical equipment that was meant for humans on the K9 Bane.

[40:16] Speaker 1: They decided that under the circumstances, it did not warrant $150 fine and a formal finding that a violation had occurred. Staff who investigated, they, they complained about EMS treating the dog, they recommended that this guy be penalized for diverting property from an ambulance service, uh, to, uh, to advance emergency care to an animal. And the complaint came from a member of the public who saw a news story that mentioned EMS has assisted with the dog's care and, uh, they say, "Look, I understand the roles, but sometimes there's things that just don't fit the roles." Um, commentary, uh, Sergeant Jamie?

[40:48] Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, uh, a reasonable human being is gonna treat that piece of equipment like a human being. We all own dogs. Those officers depend on those animals. Those animals are part of the family, even though they're considered equipment. I think that the person that sees a news story and brings up a point about medical equipment being used to save a hero should just find a place to go hide in the corner and suck their thumb. That's what they should do.

[41:13] Speaker 2: That's-

[41:14] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[41:14] Speaker 2: ... that's BS, and I'm glad that they decided not to charge that because any reasonable human being in that environment would do what they could do to save that dog.

[41:21] Speaker 1: Agreed. Agreed. Darin.

[41:23] Speaker 3: Well, I've been to-

[41:26] Speaker 1: Even Darin Porcher, even he would save the dog.

[41:26] Speaker 3: I've been to Jamie's house. And Jamie, uh, Jamie has two dogs, I believe, if I'm not mis- wait, how many? You have four?

[41:30] Speaker 1: He's got more, yeah.

[41:30] Speaker 3: Okay. I remember dealing with two dogs, and those dogs-

[41:34] Speaker 1: This is a little...

[41:34] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[41:34] Speaker 3: ... got more attention, (laughs) -

[41:36] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[41:36] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[41:36] Speaker 3: ... got more attention than anybody in the room, including his wife, okay?

[41:41] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[41:41] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[41:41] Speaker 3: So, you know, and Jamie's sprawling estate in Las Vegas, I was honored to be a visitor. But at the same token, I'm a dog lover. I'm an animal lover, not just a dog lover. And I just think it's the natural order of business that the EMTs provide, if they have the capability to provide a, a level of assistance to these dogs. Because, you know, we live in a mo-

[42:03] Speaker 2: They're heroes.

[42:04] Speaker 3: Right, right. We're, more and more, we're recognizing animal cruelty as a fault in society. And we're doing any and everything possible as sane human beings to try to support these animals whether they're, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, suffering from a level of sickness, injury, et cetera. EMT-

[42:22] Speaker 1: You know-

[42:22] Speaker 3: Bravo to him, give him his kudos, and I'm glad that the courts did the right thing and this thing didn't move any further.

[42:29] Speaker 1: You know, um, great commentary on that, guys. You know, uh, Jamie brought up a really good point about dogs being property. You know, there are... I've run into K9 handlers and cops that, that don't understand that you cannot use lethal force. And in fact, I'm not aware of any application where you can use lethal force to save the life of a K9, uh, although I've seen cops do it and not be charged. Um, and I know of a, there's a lot of cops out there that don't realize the property component of that and you not being able to, to, to use lethal force to save a K9's life, which blows my mind. I think that needs to be changed. We shou- you know, I, I'm willing to put forth an effort through the show to try to make that happen.

[43:10] Speaker 1: But it just boggles my, i- i- it boggles my mind to think that-

[43:14] Speaker 3: Chip, a- and Chip, remember-

[43:15] Speaker 2: Shay- Shay, but it's state to state you have a difference as well as municipalities, so...

[43:19] Speaker 1: It doesn't exist state to state. It's all the same every state. There's no state that authorizes deadly force to save a K9.

[43:26] Speaker 3: In New York City-

[43:26] Speaker 2: So, I'm gonna just add this in real quick.

[43:28] Speaker 3: Oh, okay. Okay, sorry.

[43:29] Speaker 2: When an officer uses deadly force where an animal is involved, that subject has either got a knife in their hand, they're trying to stab the dog, the K9 handler is close and in harm's way. Every case I've had with K9, the officer was in danger of a deadly threat as well as the dog.

[43:44] Speaker 1: Which is a good thing.

[43:44] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[43:45] Speaker 1: Yeah. So, look, I... Well, hold that thought because we'll continue after... We gotta do, I gotta do the sign-up. But thank you so much, Dr. Darin Porcher, retired, uh, NYPD lieutenant, Sergeant Jamie Borden, criticalincidentreview.com. Hey, a shout-out to our sponsors, gulls.com, complantetechnologies.com, gunlearner.com, medicare.lifesaferecruiting.com, and twobells.com. We'll see you guys back tomorrow, 12 noon Eastern.

[44:09] Speaker 1: (upbeat music)