[00:13] Speaker 1: Welcome to Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I'm your host for a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a law enforcement perspective. And let me introduce the crew, guys. If you don't mind waiting for the video portion of our show, he's back, Chief Ralph Ornelas, all the way from California. Don't hold that against him. He's also former commander for the LA County Sheriff's Office. Yeah, this guy is the real deal. We also have, all the way, let's, let's jump all the way to New York now. From, uh, from New York, a lieutenant, and we've got Dr. Darrin Porcher. And, uh, and then, let's jump a little bit further south. Let's go back. Let's go to Florida. We've got Captain Brett Bartlett, the founder of Exemplar Defense Solutions at exemplardefense.com, and also, he, he likes me to say this last part, 32 years of exemplary law enforcement experience.

[00:58] Speaker 1: So, hopefully, I, I got that right, Brett. And I'm also in Florida. Brett and I were partners together. He just rose up the chain higher than me, uh, and, uh, and I'm okay with that. So, uh, anyway, I just get to rub elbows with all these important guys, so it's all, it's all good. So thank you so much, gentlemen, for being on the show. And, um, you know, uh, yeah, Chief Ralph likes me to put his name first because he was a chief when he retired. Uh, so anyhow, let's, let's give a shout-out to our sponsors. You know, we have our, our title sponsor, Galls at galls.com. Don't forget that we have that 15%, uh, Galls discount code. It is REDIO15. Type in REDIO15 next time you go to galls.com to get 15% off of most purchases. Also, compliantetechnologies.com, our satellite sponsor. Thanks to them, we've been on satellite radio since Cinco de Mayo last year. We have gunlearn.com, medicare.life.

[01:41] Speaker 1: Safeguardrecruiting.com, our streaming sponsor, and thanks to them, we're streaming to about a million followers right now during the live show on social media. And also, twobells.com, they built a new online store at leoroundtable.com. So if you want cool shirts like the one that I'm, uh, wearing, uh, the one that Brett should be wearing but he's not, the one that I gave him, and, uh, also the coffee mug that I have behind me, go to leoroundtable.com. Upper right-hand corner, you got the online store. We don't make a dime off of anything. The prices are dirt cheap. I'm telling you, when I buy stuff for me and for Brett, because he doesn't buy anything himself, I pay the same price as you guys pay. So that, that's how, that's how inexpensive it is. And also, shout-out to Bryan Burns with the Tampa Free Press at tampafp.com. Thanks for carrying our content, Bryan, and also Ray Dietrich at formerlawman.com, and our very own Travis Yates with lawofficer.com.

[02:23] Speaker 1: Thanks to all those entities for helping make this show happen. Man, this energy drink that, uh, MVS sent me is working pretty good, actually. I gotta say, it's the Bulkhead. Man, it kicked in early. Um, anyhow, so thanks to all those entities for helping make the show happen. Now, what in the world are we gonna be talking about today? If I'm going too fast for you, uh, Dr. Porcher, let me know. I can slow it down. Uh, we've got, uh, the DNI, uh, uh, and what does DNI stand for? Uh, you know, in case you guys are... it's the Director of National Intelligence. So, uh, DNI, uh, secrets exposed. Florida Senator Scott demands prosecution over sham 2019 impeachment. So they're trying to kind of undo the whole Trump impeachment thing, which I thought was kind of fascinating. Are they gonna be able to pull that off? A- and then, staying in the same limelight here, uh, arrests are coming and coming soon, according to Kash Patel, saying that, "We've got all the evidence." I've...

[03:09] Speaker 1: we've been waiting for this. Appeals court orders a judge to end contempt investigation of the Trump administration deportation flights. You know, it, it's the most famously hated judge in the United States, I think, right now. We all know the name Boasberg. Uh, his picture makes my skin crawl, and, and he is getting spanked publicly, uh, by a, uh, a superior court. I love it. And then we got police shooting of a man in Chesterfield was unreasonable, according to a court. Then we've got some stories with video components. Troopers will not face charges for a deadly shooting of a mentally ill man who tried to stab a trooper. Wow. And we've got two rookie troopers. One was still in the FTO program when this happened, so we're gonna be dissecting that. A high-speed chase ends in a fatal crash in a shooting by, uh, former Hike SWAT officers. Th- good video on that one. We've got four Georgia State Troopers fired over improper injury claims linked to police pursuits.

[03:59] Speaker 1: That's just a crazy story. I know you guys would think that would be in New York or something. A 58-year-old who was armed with a BB gun rifle fatally shot by Denver police officer. We got the right thing to do. We got a, uh, a, uh, Kansas paramedic. They looked at punishing this guy for treating a dying police dog. Unfortunately, the K9 ended up dying, but they tried to jam this guy up. We're gonna talk about, um, the ethics and morals involving that. I don't know where everybody else is on, on that. I, I would like to think the right thing happened, I mean, in the end, too, and what, and what happened with the, uh, you know, with the paramedics, but that's hopefully a conversation we'll have time to talk about. So, if, uh, if you guys are ready to rock and roll on this thing, let's start off with our... We have g- three main topics I'm gonna try to, to get through as quick as possible, and that depends on what else we can cover after this.

[04:44] Speaker 1: So, uh, Tampa Free Press at tampafp.com, uh, with my buddy, Bryan Burns. DNI secrets exposed. Florida Senator Scott demands prosecution over the sham 2019 impeachment. So, I'm gonna go through this quickly. In a major move on Capitol Hill, the Florida Senator, Republican Rick Scott, he's introduced a formal resolution to delegitimize the 2019 impeachment of Donald Trump. And the filing, it, it follows a wave of newly declassified documents, thank God, released last week by Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard. And Scott claims that these prove the original proceedings were built on a foundation of, uh, to withhold evidence and political bias. The resolution points to specific disclosures from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence suggesting that the whistleblower that was behind the Ukraine complaint, that he misled investigators about prior contacts with Democratic staff. And we're not done.

[05:34] Speaker 1: According to the filing, the whistleblower also requested that certain information be kept from Republican members of the House Intelligence Committee. It gets better. Senator Scott's resolution, it further alleges that the whistleblower's previous professional ties to then Vice President Joe Biden at the time, you remember that guy, specifically regarding Ukraine policy, that they were intentionally redacted or hidden from the public record during the initial 2019 inquiry. And then, the ODNI declassified report released by Director Gabbard, it confirmed that most Americans, what they already know, that President Trump's impeachment in 2019 was a total sham based on false and illegitimate statements and a complete abuse of government. People that feel differently, if you're watching the show and saying, y- you know, and, and you don't believe this-I, my first question would be, what news sources do you listen to?

[06:18] Speaker 1: Senator Scott sent a statement that, why he, uh, introduced this resolution calling for the justice, accountability. If there's wrongdoing found in the investigation, he wants these people prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. So, he's not naming names saying, going for this person, that person. He's saying, "Hey, do the investigation and hold the people accountable." The resolution specifically targets the procedural handling of the case, noting that the whistleblower replied on second and third-hand accounts of the July the 25th, 2019 phone call between Trump and the Ukrainian President Zelenskyy. We all know that story. Scott's filing claims that, uh, concealed biases and procedural irregularities form the basis of the House's decision to impeach. They did it on false grounds. Under the terms of resolution, the Senate would officially condemn the use of flawed complaint and call on the Department of Justice to launch an independent investigation.

[07:00] Speaker 1: And lastly, Scott's urging the AG's office, attorney general, to pursue criminal prosecutions if the evidence points that way. They want also to have the Senate formally declare that the 2019 impeachment, it lacks legitimacy. So, they kind of want to undo what was already done. And he said he, uh, condemns the people responsible for the partisan attack on the president and he wants to conve- commend Director Gabbard for releasing all this stuff, this huge data dump. Uh, and I, I don't take that lightly, uh, but we're seeing a lot of that stuff going on. So, um, on this one, guys, uh, do I have any takers?

[07:32] Speaker 1: 'Cause, uh, we've got, uh, we've got some-

[07:34] Speaker 2: Yes.

[07:34] Speaker 1: ... good stuff coming up. Captain Bartlett.

[07:36] Speaker 2: I don't know s- I don't know why, that we who are on the normal side of politics (clears throat) aren't gathering up right now with pitchforks and torches and just gathering up by the hundreds of thousands and just marching somewhere to take these people down, because w- we, we just don't see it. W- you know, we, we never prot-

[08:01] Speaker 1: Well, does anybody else have anythings to say? All right. Well, look, hold that thought.

[08:06] Speaker 2: Sorry about that.

[08:06] Speaker 1: We're gonna move to the next story then, since we lost Brett. And we're gonna go to the second story, rvmnews.com, and it's similar to the first story.

[08:13] Speaker 2: It was Russia.

[08:14] Speaker 1: And it says, "Arrests are coming and coming soon." Kash Patel says that we've got all the evidence. So, Kash Patel discussed ongoing efforts within the FBI to review past investigations and to pursue accountability, saying that arrests are expected as part of a coordination with the Department of Justice, the DOJ. So, look, we've been, we've been hearing this and talking about it for a while, but Kash says, "And look, I lived through it. The media came to me, uh, came at me then too. And that just goes to show you that when you're over the target, you keep pummeling the target because the media's gonna try and pummel you." And he said that these experiences have not deterred ongoing work within the bureau. I gotta say, 'cause being a target myself and having been a whistleblower, it kind of changes you a little bit. And, uh, and, and I'm glad that, that Kash is like this pit bull and he's just, he's just not gonna let go.

[08:57] Speaker 1: He, he, you know, some people, maybe there were some weak people out there that would let go and, and look, I don't want any part of it. That's not Kash. He says, "We're gonna take this and I'm not taking this lying down." He referenced previous actions tied to investigations including, uh, the, uh, indictment of, uh, of, uh, well, the, I guess, the investigation against Director James Comey. He said, "We already indicted former Director Comey and that's going through the judicial process now." I know that there were some complications with that. I'm curious to see where that lands. He also described internal findings, said that he w- that were uncovered during his work, including areas within FBI facilities and systems that he said were not readily accessible. People were hiding stuff. This is in our FBI.

[09:34] Speaker 1: He said, uh, "But we also, at the FBI, even though we uncovered what we uncovered back in the House intel days, I'd come in here, I'd find rooms that they hid, they hid from the world, from the world. I'd come in here and find access on our computer systems as restricted and prohibited in case files that they purposely put in places that no one would ever find them." He said that his efforts resulted in the discovery of additional information which is now being r- reviewed by federal prosecutors. And all this information, he, they're working with DOJ partners to, to hold people accountable on this. So, w- now, this kind of goes along with our first main story, uh, so any more commentary on this, guys, before we move on? All right. If not, then hold that thought. We're gonna go to the third story then. If I can't get any, any action from you guys, maybe the third story will do it. Newsbreak.com, Appeals Court order... Hey, um, Darren, you know how to work that mute button, right?

[10:23] Speaker 1: Appeals court orders a judge to end contempt investigation of Trump administration deportation flights. So, this is that Boasberg, you know, that loser that we were talking about earlier. A federal judge, now, he just got publicly spanked. A federal judge must end his intrusive contempt investigation of the Trump administration for failing to comply with an order over flights that are carrying Venezuelan migrants to El Salvador last year, as a divided appeals court panel ruled on Tuesday. So, they were divided. It was not unanimous, but they still slammed Judge Boasberg. So, chief judge, and that's scary. This dude's a chief judge. James Boasberg, everybody should remember that name, abused his discretion in forging ahead with criminal contempt proceedings and, uh, and I've got less than a minute to go. S- uh, stemming from the March tw- 2025 deportation flights, according to the majority opinion by a three-judge panel from the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit.

[11:12] Speaker 1: That's a tough circuit, guys. That's the same ones that did not want to indict James Comey. The ruling is the latest twist in a year-long legal saga that's become a flash point for President Donald Trump's mass deportation campaign. The White House has portrayed Boasberg, the judge, as a biased judge who overstepped his authority. And apparently, the appellate court is agreeing with them. Trump's administration has a clear and undisputable right to the termination of the contempt proceedings according to Judge Neomi Rao, who wrote in the court's majority opinion. It goes on to say that the legal error... Well, I'll tell you what, when we come back from commercial break, I'll cover the last paragraph involving the ruling. I think you guys will like it. And again, don't forget the name of Judge Boasberg.

[11:49] Speaker 1: Commercial break, we'll be right back

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[12:51] Speaker 1: Welcome back. LEO Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. The law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host. And, uh, yes, we've got Chief Ralph Ornellas. We've got Lieutenant Darren Porcher and Captain Brett Bartlett. Sorry, I kind of got the chain of command out of whack there. And, uh, you know, we left off talking about, uh, you know, I was gonna finish the last part of this thing. But we left off talking about an appeals court orders a judge, not just any judge, it's Judge James Boasberg, um, to end his contempt investigation of the Trump administration deportation flights. We all remember how that happened. Uh, they're going, where was it? It was, uh, what? Venezuela and, was that where they were going? Was it Venezuela and he wanted them to turn, to, to turn the planes around?

[13:32] Speaker 5: El Salvador. El Salvador.

[13:33] Speaker 1: El, El Salvador. Okay, yeah.

[13:35] Speaker 5: Si- Sicil-

[13:35] Speaker 1: And they were, they were already airborne and so he expected them to turn the plane around and then it was just, it was just kind of crazy. So, um, the legal error at the heart of the criminal contempt proceedings according to the appellate court, it demonstrates why further investigation by the district court is an abuse of discretion according to Judge Rao, who wrote for the majority. Criminal contempt is available only for the violation of an order that is clear and specific. And he said that Boasberg's order from March of 2025 did not clearly and specifically bar the government from transferring the plaintiffs to Salvadorian custody. You were right, Chief Ralph. Sal- you know, Salvador. El Salvador. So, um, now, Rao, the judge that ruled against Boasberg, he was actually nominated by Trump, in all fairness, and he, you know, of course Trump's Republican. Boasberg, who was the chief judge in the District Court in, in DC was nominated by, uh, Democratic President Barack Obama.

[14:21] Speaker 1: Uh, so, so there you go. Commentary, gentlemen? We've got s- a little over six minutes before our next commercial break. Chief Ralph?

[14:27] Speaker 5: Y- you know, going back to the DNI one with, um, uh, Senator, uh, Scott, I, I like the fact what he's doing, uh, number one. Uh, I, I, I commend Tulsi Gabbard, uh, what she ... Her revealing those. Then going to article number two, with Kash Patel, I love Maria Bartiromo's interview with him, trying to pin him down a little bit more. He's been saying all these things, and you know, the thing for me is this. When are these indictments really gonna take place? You know, I, I've been, I've been through federal investigations, being investigated in my department. I could see what the United States Attorney could do, and the FBI, when they put their focus to it. And I, I'll tell you truthfully, I, I really believe they have to really drill down because people like ourselves on the screen, and many other people, are waiting, when is the shoe gonna fall?

[15:16] Speaker 1: Thank you.

[15:16] Speaker 5: And I, I really, you know, I could go on but I'm gonna give Darren a chance to speak.

[15:20] Speaker 1: Well, I hear, I hear Hillary's getting indicted any day now, on that destruction of evidence stuff. Look at Bret, look at Bret. I got him. (laughs) Darren?

[15:29] Speaker 6: You know, a lot of the challenges with the Trump administration was the Department of Justice was supposed to overhaul or drain the swamp, and the focal point in many aspects was the FBI. And I, we've yet to see that come to fruition. We've heard a lot of tough talk on television, and I, you know, I have, I know Maria Bartiromo personally, and I saw that interview that Ralph was speaking to, and we, we're just not gaining anything substantive. We haven't seen any real changes. We hear a lot of, um, soapboxing, but at the same token, that organization of the FBI needs a radical change, and this has been going on for years on end, and we just haven't been seeing it. Uh, as it relates to the deportations, a lot of people don't know, the, uh, countries of ori- origin where these illegal aliens came from were unwilling to accept these deportees. That's why we've chosen or elected to use third party countries. I mean, we're going as far as Uganda.

[16:28] Speaker 6: But these are people that cannot stay here because they didn't come to this country lawfully. That's why they're going to these third party countries. And it, it, it's a shame because when we look at how this illegal immigration has totally destroyed our country, it, it amazes me how we have so many people that are supporting this conclusion that ICE is bad, ICE is not doing something that's supported by Americans. Now granted, you didn't speak to ICE, but they're a st- they're a terminal piece in this equation as it relates to the immigration. And it's just a real sad story, and I blame a lot of it on partisan politics. We as law enforcement, or prior law enforcement officers, are apolitical. We just merely want the system to work.

[17:15] Speaker 5: Y- you know, uh, Darren hit it right in the nail, on the head. It's, it's really the weakness of the certain leadership on both sides of the aisle. And the other thing, I, I feel like they protect each other. They protect each other, and they talk... You know what really annoys me the most, audience and everybody here on this panel? They come after, they come after police officers daily all the time. Think of the shootings and unethical behavior, but what about holding these politicians? And that's what I want to see from the FBI and United States Attorney's Office, going after these politicians who have been hiding so much information from us, that really, let's, let's be ethical in totality.

[17:53] Speaker 6: You're absolutely right. And on another note, your Florida congresswoman that stole over $5 million-

[18:00] Speaker 5: Huh.

[18:00] Speaker 6: ... that, from the great state, the great state of Florida, has stepped down, but I've yet to see an indictment introduced, which I think is a catastrophic failure as it relates to the Department of Justice. And this supports the conclusion that Ralph presented just momentarily, second in- seconds ago.

[18:19] Speaker 1: Well, it's supposed to be coming, Brett.

[18:21] Speaker 5: Listen, listen. When I see somebody doing a perp walk, if I see H- Hillary Clinton resisting arrest-

[18:27] Speaker 2: ... and getting a thumping with an expen- Then, then I'm going, yeah, they're do. But I'm tired of it. They talk and they talk. They don't do anything. I used to tell my, my, my, uh, subordinants this: If you're gonna be in charge, be in charge. Do something. Just get it done. Let's not talk about it for years. Get it done. Put one of these knuckleheads in jail.

[18:49] Speaker 5: Yeah, get it, get it.

[18:50] Speaker 6: But Bret, I just wanna say one thing, not to cut you off, Ralph, and I, we'll, we'll hear you out. When we go back as far as Whitewater, how many administrations have we had in the White House since then? So the Department of Justice has not been reformed. So when you speak to the testament of the inappropriate actions of Hillary Clinton, the politicians have turned a blind eye to this for years on end. And it's just troubling that we have an administration that spoke to this is the focal point, but haven't... it has not revolutionized it accordingly.

[19:21] Speaker 5: You, you know, you know, Darren, and audience, and panel is this, where the rubber meets the road when, when I, I voted the third time for President Trump. And I love to hear all the verbiage from Kash Patel and Dan Bongino and Pam Bondi and everybody. But you know, something, we gotta prove to the public that the system does work. And, and, and I'm not s- I'm not seeing it. I look at when w- we were investigating LA County sheriffs, 21 people got indicted and went to federal prison.

[19:50] Speaker 5: I mean, it, where's, where, where is, where the rubber meets-

[19:54] Speaker 1: Accountability.

[19:54] Speaker 5: ... the road?

[19:54] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[19:54] Speaker 5: Accountability.

[19:54] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[19:54] Speaker 5: Thank you very much, Jim.

[19:55] Speaker 1: Yeah. No, you're right. Well, guys, uh, we got a lot of new people watching. We got Bob Chandler on the show, Mary Lou Bartlett, my girlfriend, Bret's wife, uh, and, uh, so thanks for watching the show. Uh, Maureen Garcia, another new name, uh, and, uh, Terry Robin Mims. Look at that. Terry Mims account, Bret. Look at that. Wow. And, uh, and, and a lot of good people that are on there. So thanks, Jean, uh, Jean Olean as well. So, uh, thanks. And, uh, Jean's talking about empty threats, empty threats. Why do you even bother talking about it? Well, it's in the news. It's in the news. So if, uh, if you guys are ready, we've got an update article, and I got nine seconds. Guys, I'll tell you what, let's go to commercial break real quick. We'll be right back. All right, guys, it's time to talk about Compliant Technologies at complianttechnologies.com.

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[21:21] Speaker 1: And friends, take it from me, when it comes to safety, this is one of the most common sense, hands-on solutions that's ever come along. Go to complianttechnologies.com today and tell them that Chip and Brett sent you. Again, complianttechnologies.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock and I'm your host. We are joined by Chief Ralph Ornelas, Captain Bret Bartlett, and Lieutenant and Doctor Darren Porcher. So thanks, guys, for being on the show. And, uh, hey, uh, are you guys ready to go to the update article about the police shooting in Chesterfield, uh, being unreasonable? Is that cool? All right. And, and, you know, there's a... I, I saw a video. They just, you know, a lot of these news sources, they cut it off before the bad g- bad guy is shot, or they'll freeze the frame and then you hear the gunshots afterwards. And, and, and sometimes it's kind of hard, you know, to, to, to make the call, right?

[22:05] Speaker 1: Um, so twelveonyourside.com, police shooting of a man in Chesterfield was unreasonable according to the court. Doesn't mean it necessarily was. Chesterfield, Virginia is what we're talking about. So the US Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit said on Friday that a Chesterfield police officer's use of force back in 2023, so it's been a little while, uh, was unreasonable. So in the afternoon, it was a Saturday, July the 8th of 2023, so guys, we're talking three years ago. This is coming down from something that happened three years ago. So that's the, that's the first problem I have with this. This guy, I don't know if he's been on the porch or what, but, but, you know, that, there's a problem there. 34-year-old Charles Bryers attempted to break into the homes in Wycliffe Court, um, after being released from a hospital during a mental health crisis.

[22:48] Speaker 1: So the Chesterfield police officer who arrived on the scene, um, he sees residents outside of their homes and then he sees Bryers, our bad guy, walking through a, a resident's yard with a hatchet in his right hand. The officer immediately draws her firearm and she tells the bad guy to drop the hatchet. And of course, like all bad guys, she doesn't do it. A few seconds later, a second officer arrives. So as, uh, as Bryers approaches him with the hatchet in the hand, the officer draws his firearm and then he begins giving verbal commands to the bad guy to drop the hatchet. So the first officer, the female, transitions from a gun to a taser. Don't... I mean, you know, she's got a male guy that's already drawn down on the guy. Police say that the bad guy refuses to comply with verbal commands, continues to wield the hatchet. So Byers, she ends up tasing him. It's not effective. They command him to drop the ha- they, they, they constantly give him commands he's not following.

[23:38] Speaker 1: So one officer identified as Gordon Painter, he ends up shooting the bad guy multiple times and our bad guy starts running towards an intersection with the hatchet still in his hand and ultimately, bad guy drops the hatchet, falls to the ground a f- a few feet from the roadway. It goes on to say that, uh, neither the allegations in the complaint nor the body camera video indicates that the bad guy ever moved towards the officers with the hatchet once he began backing away from them. Even in the video that we watched, all you see is them following the guy. You got the chick with the taser, the dude with the, with the handgun, and the bad guy, uh, with the hatchet backing away from them. But you never see them pull the, pull the trigger for the shots fired or anything. But the appeals court said that neither the allegations nor the video suggested the bad guy took any action to throw the hatchet at the officers or to use it in any threatening manner.

[24:23] Speaker 1: So that's why they're challenging the shooting. The court says the bad guy was at least 25 feet away, backing away from officers when Painter, the officer that fired, uh, given that distance and the absence of any preceding furtive or threatening movements, we conclude that Byers, the bad guy, did not pose an immediate threat to the officers. So the US Court of Appeals, they upheld the earlier district court, lower court's denial of qualified immunity, which is important, um, to officer, just to the Officer Painter, the guy that pulled the trigger. This opens the door for the Byers family to civilly sue the Officer Painter and for that to go forward. In 2024, which is a year after the shooting, Chesterfield Police Department, they posted on social media that it stood by the actions of the officers, plural, that they took that day and it would issue no other statements. And, uh, so now it's being remanded back to federal court for the lawsuit to proceed. So there we go.

[25:12] Speaker 1: Captain Bartlett

[25:13] Speaker 2: It's pretty scary stuff when the guy's out there with an axe, refusing to drop it, refusing your lawful orders, not being affected by the taser. And he's turns, and he's heading maybe towards some other people, and the police drop the guy and take him down, and now the policeman's made a bad decision. Um, I'm hoping this is a very, very isolated case, 'cause that could be some ugly news if that went, uh, profession-wide.

[25:38] Speaker 5: Dr. Darren?

[25:40] Speaker 6: Um, I've actually represented the Chesterfield Police Department as a police expert in the past, so I'm quite familiar with, uh, their, their training and that department overall. And the one thing that I will say, just based on the narrative, is the deescalation is something that came first, and then they went under the umbrella of Graham versus Connor, the 1989 Supreme Court decision, which ti- whi- which supports use of force, which needs, which, which we deem, which is gonna be deemed as objectively reasonable. Many people would say whenever you have a person that's in possession of an axe, um, does that, does an axe pose a risk of serious physical injury or death to the officer or a third person? The answer is yes. So, the officers do have the right to use or employ deadly physical force. However, they elected to take it down a notch and use the taser.

[26:31] Speaker 6: Granted, the taser was ineffective and we have a, a perpetrator that's moving away from the officers, but when you look to the, um, the court decision titled Tennessee versus Gardner, it al- it avails you the ability to shoot a fleeing felon if you f- if you pre- you as an officer perceive that that same individual poses a significant threat of serious physical injury or death to either the officer or a third party if they escape. And that would give you grounds for using deadly physical force against the individual in question, and I believe that was the support mechanism the officers stood by when they fr- when, when they shot the perpetrator that was in possession of an axe. As Captain Bartlett mentioned, um, an axe can cause a serious physical injury or death to someone else if, if this is a person, this person in question presents this threat to the public. And that's what I believe happened here.

[27:28] Speaker 6: Now, granted, a lot of this stuff is still coming in, but at the same token, um, there's gonna be a civil suit that comes in, and when we look to these civil suits they only need 51%, which is the preponderance of evidence, to gain a cash award for the, um, the people that are plaintiffs in this case. So, we have to wait and see.

[27:48] Speaker 5: Y- y- you know, I, I think Darren did an excellent job articulating all the case laws and stuff, but I wanna add a little twist to this because I've been an executive force review commander as a chief also. You gotta look at, you know, Barnes versus Felix, and it would, and you look at, you look at, you look at what, what we used to look at uses of force. What preceded it, number one. Okay, what couldn't you have done to mitigate that from the beginning? And number two, as, as a, a reviewer, did, couldn't you have inserted other type of deescalation tools, .40 caliber, other, other, other tools to try to mitigate a shooting? And especially the fact that he's running away or moving away or distance away. What was the immediate threat? Yes, and I like what Darren said, though, good thing that, uh, they could escape. If he escapes, does he injure somebody else? You know, look at California.

[28:43] Speaker 5: We have a penal code section 835A, and what it talks about here, it puts, it puts a whole nother dimension on the use of deadly force. Was it reasonable and necessary at the moment in time the officer shot? So, you know, it's a really, it's a really slippery slope. And I, and I always said, everybody, who's audience in the panel right here, I always would tell my deputies and my officers when I was a chief, "You become the Steven Spielbergs of this incident. Please use as many resources and tools to mitigate the incident," because you're gonna be, you're gonna be, you're, basically it's kind of proctologist looking up you when you, when you do shoot. (laughs) Look, he used to work, he used to be in charge of the prison in LA. He's talking about the slippery slopes soap, and now he's talking about proctologists. I don't know.

[29:29] Speaker 5: I, I'm just putting, I'm connecting dots here

[29:31] Speaker 6: Well, Chip, Chip, you, Chip, you're the ca- you're the proctologist on the panel here, right?

[29:36] Speaker 5: (laughs)

[29:36] Speaker 6: Based on your extensive, based on your, your, your extensive background in proctology.

[29:43] Speaker 5: Ugh. Okay, so, so Brett, do you have a, a, uh, you may want to say something else too, but do you have any issue? I mean, three year- it took three years to get to this point? Three years?

[29:52] Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not surprised it took three years. I'm happy it didn't take five years. But people aren't in any hurry. What do those people do under those black robes all day anyway? You only ever see one hand. So, I'm just wondering what they're doing up under those black robes for three years. I'm just wondering, Chip.

[30:07] Speaker 5: Well, we know what Boasberg's doing.

[30:09] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[30:10] Speaker 5: Y- you know, it's, it's really shameful that these, these shootings and reviews go to court and they go for a long period of time, because you look at the undue stress on the officers. And I've had, I've had deputies that have been through this, and, you know, and it's really, it's really, it's really, it's really very taxing and stressful. Yeah, I am, I- I- and, and look, in all honesty, I wish we had more to go off of in the video. I, I, you know, they cut it off too soon. So, um, but th- but, you know, I do like that they, they, and, and, you know, Dr. Darren, you said you've worked for the department before. I love how they stand by their friggin' officers.

[30:45] Speaker 5: I mean

[30:45] Speaker 6: I represented them, and it wasn't just the offi- it wasn't just the hierarchy, but the prosecutors as well. They were, they worked in unison under the same umbrella, and it was reasonable. It's not, "Look, we'll just back the cops no matter what." But they were a department, or I wanna say a, a, a county or a city, that genuinely understood the dynamic of how to uphold the social contract-

[31:10] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[31:10] Speaker 6: ... and the necess- and the necessity of backing your cops because they're the first line of defense. They got it.

[31:16] Speaker 5: So-

[31:17] Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I'll point out to our listeners before we move on... I'm sorry, Brett. I didn't mean to cut you. I didn't know you were gonna go on, but, uh, but

[31:22] Speaker 7: Okay.

[31:22] Speaker 1: ... backdrops are important so... And not all, look, not all cops are created equal. I've seen cops shoot and I've seen them shoot at a running bad guy and I've seen them stop a string of fire because the backdrop got ugly and as soon as they got a good backdrop again, they continued the shooting. I'm telling you, ama- we've seen some amazing stuff on this show. I've also (laughs) seen cops that are, that are just, you know, they just don't, they're just not doing three-dimensional thinking and they are oblivious to the backdrop. Um, the backdrop, there were times when the backdrop didn't necessarily look good. The body cam distorts the- the- the field. You don't really know how far away the bad guy is and he's backing towards... I saw a car in the background. You- you never know if there was someone out of the, out of the range of the camera view that was maybe walking towards the bad guy or maybe he...

[32:06] Speaker 1: an open doorway that someone in a residence opened up or a car that he was gonna carjack. You never really know. We don't have... We're not armed with all the information is what I'm saying. I have to believe the agency backed the guys for a second. I'm sorry to cut you off, Brett. Final... Oh, we got six seconds, so guys, it doesn't matter. We're gonna hump in, we're gonna hop in for one more commercial break. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about GunLearn at GunLearn.com and there's some new stuff going on with GunLearn and of course, it's 1996, they've been teaching everything that LEOs need to know about firearms and ammunition to all batches of law enforcement.

[32:36] Speaker 1: And they provide citations from federal law and ATF rulings, but the big deal is that gun f- GunLearn.com is the first and the only company that offers a step-by-step program that takes you from your present knowledge level to become a safe, accurate and competent certified firearm specialist like our very own Captain Brett Bartlett here. A- and not only that, it's about to get better. So, if you've got that certification that Brett has that... if you're a certified firearm specialist, even if you got it five years ago, they've now partnered with SmarterDegree and now that's worth college credits, through SmarterDegree's University Partners Program, which is an amazing opportunity, so you should look at becoming a certified firearm specialist. And like I said, they've been doing this since, back since 1996 and if you have your own agency you can host a seminar for absolutely no cost on GunLearn.com. Welcome back to the LEO Roundtable, LEORoundTable.com, the law enforcement talk show.

[33:23] Speaker 1: My name is Chip DeBlock and I'm your host. We're joined by Chief Ralph Ornelas, former LA... I almost said PD. I know, but I di- I didn't. Well, I kind of just did. LA County Sheriff's Office, uh, Commander. Also, we've got Captain Brett Bartlett and we've got Dr. Darren Porcher, retired NYPD Lieutenant. Um, and Brett, what... that quote that you were gonna say on the last story, go ahead and get that out there to the masses on satellite radio.

[33:46] Speaker 7: Yeah, Chip, we were talking about why it takes so longs to- to get findings on these officers, uh, pro- uh, for them or against them, and I- I- I heard this and I read this; justice delayed is justice denied.

[33:59] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[33:59] Speaker 7: There is no reason, no reason not to press ahead and go, "Look, you screwed up. Bye." Or, "You're fine. Stay with us." But three or four or five years, it just, it just... You know, it's just punishment that these officers haven't earned.

[34:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, you know-

[34:16] Speaker 6: Well, Brett, you know a lot of this is, um... I'm sorry to cut you off, walk, step over you, Ralph, but, Brett, a lot of this is the attorneys. The attorneys in many cases are just not prepared and they just keep delaying the action because the attorneys are taking other cases that they're getting money on and this police case is something that sits on the back burner.

[34:35] Speaker 1: Yeah. Doesn't that-

[34:36] Speaker 7: You know, you know... I'm sorry. Go, go ahead, Chip.

[34:38] Speaker 1: No, I was gonna say, but it... You know, I mean, I- I guess there's an excuse for why it's going on, but it just, it doe-... you know, there should be... it just shouldn't happen, you know. It just, it... for whatever reason, it happens, it just... you know, being on the porch or being under the limelight, being in the news, front page of the paper and on TV like I was for freaking forever a- and- and not being able to talk about it because there's an open investigation and because it's a mister-... it's a first-degree misdemeanor if I open my mouth and talk about it. Meanwhile, everybody else can be talking about it behind my back and spreading rumors that I can't dispel. I mean, Brett knows what I'm talking about. It- it's really... you'll, you... there's a part of you that never recovers from something like that.

[35:14] Speaker 7: Yeah. You know, so in California and maybe in New York and Florida, you know, you have I-A case, but if there's a criminal element potentially, time tolls on the I-A case, administrative case. So, a lot of times they stretch that thing out and it could be, the criminal case, two, three, four years and then after that-

[35:34] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[35:34] Speaker 7: ... then you could go after the administrative end of it. I mean, you know-

[35:37] Speaker 1: Right.

[35:38] Speaker 7: ... and I- and I would always try when I was a captain in command for the sheriff's department, you know, I tried to expedite some of those things 'cause it's not... 'cause it's not fair for the deputy sheriffs who are going through this.

[35:48] Speaker 1: Well, and- and you- you talk about-

[35:50] Speaker 7: And Brett always has to- Liability for the agency, Ralph. Let's say that it takes three years to find out that an officer, uh, broke the rules. He needs to go. He's a bad guy. As a, as a, as a member of the public, I'm gonna go, "So, you let him work for three years

[36:03] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[36:03] Speaker 7: ... out there with this over his head and you let him work?" But it goes back

[36:07] Speaker 1: That's on, that's on you.

[36:08] Speaker 7: But it goes back to what Darren said.

[36:10] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[36:10] Speaker 7: The attorneys. I know it Attorneys in charge. Attorneys in control

[36:15] Speaker 1: Right.

[36:15] Speaker 7: You know what I mean?

[36:15] Speaker 1: Brett always comes up with the great, you know, like the taglines about, you know, justice denied and, uh, we were interviewed by Vivid and Night Moves and you came up with a great quote there and, uh, they always like what comes out of your mouth. I don't know. I don't know.

[36:27] Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.

[36:27] Speaker 1: So-

[36:27] Speaker 7: What did I say? I don't remember.

[36:29] Speaker 1: You said, um, something about you can, you can legislate... It was something about legislating morality. You can legislate but you can't... you can legislate something but you can't legislate, um, morality. Something... I don't know. I can't even-

[36:40] Speaker 7: Uh-

[36:40] Speaker 1: ... remember what it was, but it was good.

[36:41] Speaker 7: Sounds deep like me but I don't remember. (laughs)

[36:42] Speaker 1: It was deep. Hey, guys, let's go to a story with a video component. Rumble.com, our favorite law enforcement video channel called This is Butter. Troopers will not face... well, actually, no. We just... uh, well, let's see. Troopers won't face charges for... oh, we had a deadly shooting of a mentally ill man who tried to stab a trooper. We... that is the video one.

[37:01] Speaker 3: You're just gonna make me hit my head more there, mom. I know, but- What am I supposed to do? It's in my body. We had X-rays taken of your head and it's not there, son. It's... it's in there. It just grows around your vagus nerve.It was made by the US military. What am I supposed to do? You said if I took you to get an x-ray of your head, you would believe me and believe us that something was wrong. I tried, I tried. But I, I, I thought that it... I thought that it would show on an x-ray.

[37:33] Speaker 8: Okay. Listen to him, man. He cares about you a lot.

[37:35] Speaker 3: Okay? Okay? Yeah. This is not a destination. Life's a journey, okay? No, I wanna die. You know, you're gonna get through this. It's gonna be- No, I wanna die.

[37:41] Speaker 8: Hey, hey.

[37:42] Speaker 3: No, I wanna die.

[37:42] Speaker 8: Whoa. Hey, hey. Nope. Don't run. Whoa, whoa. (gunshots) .

[37:48] Speaker 3: (screams)

[37:50] Speaker 8: Get down.

[37:51] Speaker 3: Sorry. Hang on. I wanna live.

[37:53] Speaker 8: Whoa. Hey. Hey.

[37:55] Speaker 3: Hey, hey. 1B26. Shots fired. Officers 10-47 with us. No! No! What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing?

[38:11] Speaker 1: There is a lot to take from this. I'm glad we're covering this. We may need all the remaining time to cover this. So we're in, in, in, in Fairbanks, Alaska, of all places, and we have two troopers, uh, that end up, um, shooting and killing an armed guy experiencing a mental health crisis. But the, but one's in the, in the FTO program, Darren, and the other one just got out. A- a- and there's a third, you know, the FTO is there, uh, but the two young guys are handling everything. It's just, it's just crazy. Um, and so they say that, um, the brother of the bad guy got injured as well, got shot, and, uh, but the, uh, no one's gonna face criminal charges as far as the cops go. So the, um, State Department of Law's Office of Special Prosecutions, they found that Trooper John Fall and Trooper Wyatt Mill. Wyatt's a kind of a cool Western name, isn't it?

[38:57] Speaker 1: That they were both justified in fatally shooting 24-year-old bad guy William Rexford on January the 1st inside the home, the family's home, after he ended up grabbing two knives and he tried to stab, uh, Fall, uh, you know, one of the troopers. And, and Fall, anyhow, it, it was kind of Fall's, Fall's fault that I, that I say that, right, you know? (laughs) A, a family member was also shot during the encounter and seriously injured as he tried to pull the bad guy off of Trooper Fall while he was trying to sta- uh, stab him, but Fall had fallen to the ground. Fall, fallen, fault. Boy, that's a lot of fun with that name. All three troopers were initially responded, including Trooper Fall and Miller, who were wearing body cameras that recorded the incident. So the troopers were called to the residence at 11:30 in the morning January the 1st after receiving reports that, uh, Rexford was destroying property at the home.

[39:44] Speaker 1: The troopers had been called to the home previously to help address issues about Rexford's, uh, mental health. And Rexford had just been discharged from a psychiatric unit of a hospital, so body cam shows him calmly speaking with the troopers. He's sitting down on, like, a little sofa thing, and he's kind of surrounded by these, by... Well, we can see these two young troopers. One, one of them's wearing the body camera we're looking at, and we see another young trooper between the bad guy and, and the kitchen. And so, he keeps putting his head in his hand, and I keep thinking, you know, uh, Travis Yates talks about, you know, these, um, you know, these, uh, what do you call them?

[40:17] Speaker 1: These, um, not triggers but the-

[40:20] Speaker 2: Pre- pre-attack indicators.

[40:21] Speaker 1: Pre-attack indicators. Boy, I tell you, it, it... They... All these flags are going up. So they try to talk this guy in the, into going back to the hospital to seek treatment, and he finally lowers his head one last time, and then he gets up and he makes feet, feet for the, uh, for the kitchen. Well, the young trooper, uh, and this is the one I believe that was, um, still in the FTO program, lets the guy just brush right by him, and he gets in the kitchen. And so... And I'm just kind of going from memory here, 'cause we're gonna need the time to talk about it. So the trooper that's wearing the body cam who just got out of the FTO program, so he's just started riding by himself, he goes up trying to get to the g- the... get the bad guy from going in the kitchen, and, and the trooper that, that was supposed to stop him but didn't, that he... that the bad guy literally, like, brushed up against, this, this, this...

[41:05] Speaker 1: the trooper that j- just got out of the FTO program, he pushes the younger trooper towards the bad guy. (laughs) So when he pushes him into the bad guy, bad guy's already got the two knives, and he's turning around, and, and the, and the young trooper goes down to the ground. Bad guy's on him, trying to stab him and stuff. Trooper's got his left hand up, you know. And, uh, he sh- he should've stopped him before he... You know, he should never let him get to the kitchen. But now we got the brother of the bad guy. He comes up behind him and grabs him, and he's trying to pull him off the trooper on the ground that he's trying to stab. At that time, both these troopers, you know, the guy still in the FTO program, the guy that just got out, they both light the bad guy up, and they... and both guys get shot, the brother and, and the true bad guy. And so that's what ends up going down. Um, and this happened in, like, less than six seconds.

[41:47] Speaker 1: So, um, Fall and Miller were the recruits at the time, and, uh, it talks about, uh, the trooper shot Rexford four times. His brother prosecu- prosecutors say was shot in the face and needed extensive treatment. And the, the trooper, Fall, suffered minor hand wound and all... and that was his probably defensive wound. He was trying to fight the bad guy off by doing that. So that's what we have. Two min- a little over two minutes, guys. Whoever wants to, um, start us off.

[42:12] Speaker 2: I'll go.

[42:12] Speaker 1: All right, Brett.

[42:13] Speaker 2: Dear Chief, what had happened was there was this guy. I, I tell you, when I saw that guy, when he leaned forward and he put his head in the... his, uh, his hands on his head, I'm going, "Oh, he's coming up with a plan, baby."

[42:25] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

[42:25] Speaker 2: "Everybody better get ready." Especially when he says, "All I wanna do is dive." Okay? That, that's a clue. He's down here. He's, he's getting this... he's getting it together. He's trying to, he's trying to put them at ease, thinking, "Well, if I do this, they won't... they, they'll think I'm okay." Man, he came up, but they should have punched him right in the snot locker.

[42:44] Speaker 1: Mm, mm-mm. I know. Bad things happen. Geist, it's a good show.

[42:49] Speaker 3: Go ahead, Gary.

[42:51] Speaker 6: Well, I... You know, one of the things that... and, and you touched on it briefly, Chip, is, uh, we train cops to s- to make sure that we don't allow someone to get to the kitchen. So when we speak to the tactical positioning once you arrive on the scene of a mentally ill person, um, I'm kind of surprised that... Granted, this is a smaller department, but I'm kind of surprised that there was no information that was introduced that he was recently, um, released from a psychiatric facility. Because whenever you...Y- with the smaller departments, it's different than the larger t- departments. With the larger departments, whenever we have a mental health concern, we generally dispatch a supervisor along with the officers, because we're speaking the officers, one officer that is, that is in, in FTU and then a second one that just got out of there. So, is it safe to say that their level of expertise is somewhat limited? Granted, we've all been there, but ...

[43:43] Speaker 1: But the FTo, the FTO was there.

[43:46] Speaker 6: The FTO was there.

[43:47] Speaker 5: And, and, and the, and the, I got your problem.

[43:48] Speaker 1: And he was on, he was on camera and they were trying to talk him into going back to the mental health facility. That was what their purpose was there.

[43:55] Speaker 6: No, true, true.

[43:55] Speaker 1: They weren't sitting down.

[43:57] Speaker 6: I got that part, but once again, whenever we had, and I'm sure this has happened to everyone on this panel, whenever we heard of a person that was in field training, um, we always, we, as senior officers, always gravitated towards that area where we had a person that was on field training that was positioned. Um, and then when I go back to the tactical positioning, um, they shouldn't have let him into the, um, into the-

[44:20] Speaker 1: Kitchen.

[44:21] Speaker 6: ... in, in, into, into the kitchen, and that's really where we had the catastrophic breakdown in tactics. And, you know, fortunately, the officers are okay. It's just unfortunate the guy was shot.

[44:32] Speaker 1: Chief Ralph.

[44:33] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[44:33] Speaker 1: 15 seconds.

[44:34] Speaker 5: I mean, I mean, uh, I think, uh, both, uh, Brett and Darren said the right things. I just believe that foul, the trainee with his training officer would ca- caught flat-footed. And the other thing is this, why wasn't that field training officer inserted himself at all? I mean, I have a real issue with that. I really do.

[44:53] Speaker 1: All right. Another great show. Thank you so much, Chief Ralph Ornellas, Captain Brett Barlett, uh, Dr. Darren Porcher. A shout-out to our sponsors, gullist.com, complianttechnologies.com, gunlearn.com, americare.lifesaverrecruiting, and tubellus.com, and look, we've got a special show tomorrow that Producer Will's putting together. We're back live on Friday, and so we'll see you tomorrow, 12:00 noon Eastern.

[45:16] Speaker 1: (rock music plays)