00:13

Speaker 1
Welcome to Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host, and we're a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a law enforcement perspective. And let me introduce the crew. Guys, if you don't mind waiting for the video portion of our show. We have Chief Chris Noller all the way from Colorado. Thank you so much for being on, back on the show, Chief. Also, Captain Bret Bartlett, the founder of Exumbra Defense Solutions at exumbradefense.com. Hey, a shout-out to our sponsors. You know, we have our title sponsor, Galls, at galls.com. We also have compliantetechnologies.com, our satellite sponsor. They get us on satellite radio back on Cinco de Mayo, May the 5th last year. We also have gunlearn.com, mymedicare.live, safeguardrecruiting.com, our streaming sponsor, and thanks to them, we're streaming to about a million followers right now during the live show. And then, twobells.com.

00:59

Speaker 1
They built their new online store at leoroundtable.com. You can go to the store and get cool gear like the mug behind me. We got shirts, we got hats, we got all kinds of stuff. I even got, uh, uh, uh, what... I bought a bunch of shirts, uh, for Bret for, uh, SHOT Shows. He never wears them, though, so I-I can't really show you those. (laughs) So... But we don't, we don't make a, a dime off of anything on the online store. We're just trying to get our gear out there, so the prices are inexpensive. So, check that out. And a, a, a thank-you to Brian Burns for the Tampa Free Press at tampafp.com. Thanks for carrying our content, Brian. Also, Ray Dietrich with formerlawman.com, and our very own Travis Yeates with lawoficer.com. Thanks to all those entities for helping make this show happen. Now, what in the world are we gonna be talking about today? You know, we have a main topic, then we have a tendency to be a little bit deeper.

01:39

Speaker 1
Clarence Thomas blasts SCOTUS, which of course is the Supreme Court of the United States, for dodging an AR-15 ban challenge. So, stay tuned for that. And that is a Maryland law that we're gonna be talking about. And we've also got some other stuff, a-assuming that we have time to get to it all. We have experts call for action to prevent deaths at a US, at US police academies. And, you know, I, I hate covering things from the AP News wire, Associated Press, but this is something they kind of instigated, so I, I have to give them credit and reference for it. We're gonna cover that. A-and some other stories with video components. We have body cam shows a machete-wielding man, uh, being fatally shot by Houston police officers. It says "officers" but really officer, an Asian female, after robbing a Family Dollar Store. Then we got a Bend burglary suspect throwing Molotov cocktail and fighting at a, at a K-9. He set some stuff on fire. So, guys, and I'm getting some background noise.

02:31

Speaker 1
If you can kill those mics, guys, I'd appreciate it. Um, also, we've got another s- another one here. We've got a double stabbing arson suspect fatally shot by Prince George deputies. And Salt Lake City police release body cam footage from officer-involved shooting along the train track. So, that's what we're gonna be covering. So let's go and start off with the, uh, the first one, the main topic. Um, rvmnews.com, it's Red Voice Media. This is where the story came from. Clarence Thomas blasts SCOTUS for dodging AR-15 ban challenge. So, um, this is pretty interesting. I wanted to cover this when Bret was on the show. Uh, Justice Clarence Thomas issued a strong dissent, and he is, uh... I-i-it's after the US Supreme Court, they decline to hear a challenge to the Maryland ban on so-called, what they're calling assault weapons, which of course there's no such thing, including the AR-15, the most popular rifle in the United States.

03:16

Speaker 1
Now, the court's decision leaves in place a 2013 Maryland law, and what that Maryland law does is, is that it bans a range of semi-automatic rifles that are classified under state law as what they call assault weapons. Now, a federal appeals court previously upheld that law in a ten-to-five ruling. Now, by denying the petition, the Supreme Court, they will not revisit the ruling, and Maryland's ban will actually continue and remain in effect. Now, the, uh, Justice Thomas joined by Justice Samuel Alito and Justice Neil Gorsuch in wanting to take up the case. They criticized the court for declining to act on what he described as a critical Second Amendment issue. And in his written dissent, meaning that he does not go along with what the majority of the judges said, Justice Thomas said that an high court has avoided the issue for far too long. Here's a quote saying, "I would not wait to decide whether the government can ban the most popular rifle in America.

04:10

Speaker 1
That question is of critical importance to tens of millions of law-abiding AR-15 owners throughout the country. We have avoided deciding that for a full decade." Now, he also added that the courts would not hesitate to intervene if it was the other way around, if constitutional rights were being similarly restricted. And he says, here's a quote, "I doubt that we would sit idly by if lower courts were so subvert, suburb that, uh, uh, precedence, uh, involving any other constitutional right. Until we're vigilant to enforce it, the right to bear arms will remain a second-class right." Unquote. Now, Thomas also criticized the US Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, which is the court that upheld Ma- uh, Maryland's ban. He said the court improperly shifted the burden of proof onto those that were challenging the law, rather than requiring the state to prove that the restriction was lawful.

04:56

Speaker 1
And he says, quote, "The Fourth Circuit placed too high a burden on the challengers to show that the Second Amendment presumptively protected their conduct." Unquote. Well, actually, he continues saying, "And it's, it's determination that AR-15s are dangerous and unusual (laughs) does not withstand scrutiny." Unquote. So, um, that said, Bret, I know this is your wheelhouse. You're a certified firearms specialist through Gun Learn. Uh, love to hear your input on this.

05:20

Speaker 2
Well, I'm a citizen first.

05:22

Speaker 1
(laughs)

05:23

Speaker 2
Um, well, i-it is time. W-we were kind of hoping that this year, this ƒ (?) would finally, finally lay it all to bed, lay it to rest. There's so many cases involving, uh, uh, semi-automatic rifles floating up through the, through the process. But they just avoid it, and I, and I don't know why. Really don't understand it. And I, and I saw something very, uh, interesting recently in the case where Mexico tried to sue the US, uh, gun makers, and they got shot down. And I think it was, uh, Justice Ketanji Brown, which she's, she's on the other side, said in, in that ruling, n-not on this particular topic, but said that...... and she mentioned how many AR-15s and how many AK-47s are in the country. They're, they're, they're, they're in common use and they're out here. So I'm hoping that maybe that, w- when they finally decide to hear the case, that they're g- they're gonna add it all up and go, "Listen, y- you can't do this." Uh, they need to lay it to rest.

06:24

Speaker 2
They, they, and then they can say yes or no. They need to lay it to rest. We hope that when the Bruen case, case came out a few years ago that it, it was, everything was gonna be fine. But a lot of these US district and, and appellate, uh, courts are rewriting their own requirements rather than the common use thing that Bruen brought up. I know I'm being very simple here. There's a lot more to it than that. But they just need to get off their behinds. Uh, if they've got time to rule on whether Trump can do this or do that, they've got time to rule on this topic, which is, uh, is probably the, the biggest topic of our decade.

07:02

Speaker 1
Wow. Excellent. Excellent point, Captain. I, and, you know, I- I would love to hear, you know, the best guess on why they're trying to, uh, on why they're just n- not wanting to hear the decision. But eventually, it, it, there's gonna have to be one. You know, it, there will be laws that'll be just so outrageous, people going to jail for violations, and, and it's just gonna have to happen eventually, so. Um, there's no other-

07:23

Speaker 3
Well, that's just it is, it's, it's the normal citizen that's gonna be, uh, going to jail, and, and not the criminals. We've got so many gun laws that if we just enforced the gun laws that we have, um, we wouldn't have as much issue as we do right now. But the, the problem is, is that, um, we, we don't enforce those laws the way they should be. And we have people fighting now on ... It's, it's the weirdest thing. Uh, I had a conversation, and I'm not gonna go into detail with what group it was. But, um, we're trying to get, here in Colorado, felons, uh, that don't commit violent or what, what are Victims' Rights Act laws, which is like a violent crime, in Colorado, can legally possess a, a firearm, which includes drug traffickers, um, convicted drug traffickers can possess a gun. Uh, uh, people that commit auto theft, uh, can possess a gun.

08:13

Speaker 3
So we've been trying to get those two crimes added back into the predicate offense for possession of a weapon by a previous offender, or PAPO, and we haven't been able to get it done. And what's weird is the far right and the far left are in, uh, agreement that we, felons should have weapons. And it's the most, it's the most ungodly, uh, uh, thing I've ever seen in my career that, um, the, the far left doesn't want them to, wants them to have guns because they don't want them to go to jail. The far right wants them to have guns because they think everybody should have a gun no matter what they've ever done. Um, and we've got criminals now that are running around that are convicted drug traffickers in Colorado that legally can possess a weapon, um, and the nexus between gun crime and drugs has been proven for decades. Um, and the same is true with auto thefts. We've had a number of officers in Colorado that are, have been shot, um, uh, by people in stolen vehicles.

09:10

Speaker 3
One of my officers a few weeks back was shot by a, a, a juvenile kid in a stolen car. Um, we've had two or three officers in the last three years murdered by people in stolen vehicles, uh, um, because the, the adage is that they're not, um, they're not, uh, uh, stealing the cars to commit crimes. They're stealing it 'cause they need a place to sleep, which is a-

09:32

Speaker 1
Gosh.

09:32

Speaker 3
... a load of malo- malarkey. Um, you know, they steal these cars and go commit other crimes, carjack other people, uh, shoot, shoot, do drive-bys, shoot people, all kinds of stuff. And we've got this weird dichotomy where, um, the far ends of both spectrums, uh, want all these people to be running around and having a gun. I had a conversation with the president of a fairly large gun rights group, and he was talking about this and, and was upset that we were trying to get these crimes back on the PAPO list. And I told him, "The problem is, is even in the old days these individuals wouldn't have had guns, because when you stole somebody horse, what happened to you? You got hung from a tree, the closest one they could find. Um, when you commit a felony theft, what happened to you? You went to prison for dang near ever, um, and you never possessed a weapon again.

10:21

Speaker 3
Um, and, and so forever you haven't been able to possess weapons when you've committed these kinds of crimes." Um, it's, it's just crazy.

10:29

Speaker 1
Well, we'll, uh, we'll keep everybody updated if they decide to hear that case. So, um, and, uh, and I'm curious. I need to, I need to follow the, uh, the Leosa ruling as well to kind of stay up-to-date on, on what's going on with Leosa. Uh, if you guys are ready, we've got a, uh ... And I'll tell you what, instead of going straight to the update, uh, let me just see here. Let's, um ... Well, we'll go ahead and do it. We'll go and cover the AP story. "Experts called for action to prevent deaths at a US, at US police academies," citing AP investigation. This is at APnews.com. So a ... And I've experienced some of this before since I was the, uh, the, the lead fitness trainer for Tampa. Uh, fa- uh, panel of experts called Wednesday for policy and cultural changes to prevent deaths that are linked to heat and exertion at the nation's police academies and insisted that urgent action is needed to save the lives of recruits.

11:16

Speaker 1
Now, the people that they are bouncing this off of are the National Athletic Trainers Association and the Public Safety Athletic Trainers Society. They convened the discussion in response to an Associated Press investigation that I hinted to earlier. They documented the deaths of at least 29 recruits, but this happened over a 10-year period, over the last des- decade. The groups are drafting new guidance detailing best practices. And it goes on to say that AP found that most recruits died of exertion, dehydration, heatstroke and other conditions that were tied to intense exercise, often on the first day of training, which tells me that these recruits did not train, and, uh, during grueling defensive tactics drills or after high-stakes timed runs on hot days. So, um, this is gonna get, this is an interesting article that we're gonna cover, so we're gonna get into the nuts and bolt of this. It's, uh, time for our first commercial break, though, guys, so stick with us.

12:04

Speaker 1
We'll be right back.My family only cares about one thing: that I come home safe. (instrumental music plays)

12:13

Speaker 4
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13:04

Speaker 1
Welcome back to Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. You know, when we went to co-, uh, commercial break, we were talking about a story. It's the AP Newswire story, "Experts Call for Action to Prevent Deaths at US Police Academies," citing an AP investigation. And so we talked about how, um, you know, most of these deaths, they're from exertion, dehydration, heatstroke and other conditions that are, uh, tied to intense exercise. I've seen some of this stuff before. Not, not the deaths, but I've had, I've had... Some people have to go to the hospital. I've had people that have, uh, gone into a seizure. A lot of these things can be brought on by intense exercise, especially, you know, w- I'm in Tampa, so, uh, you know, in this area, it gets really, it gets really, really hot. And so... And there's a lot of humidity. It goes on to say that, um, Black recruits represent nearly 60% of the people who died.

13:52

Speaker 1
And th- the reason why that's remarkable is just that Black officers make up about 12% of local police forces. So that is, uh, that is, you know, out of whack. Many carry the sickle cell trait, which helps explain some of that. It's a condition prevalent among, uh, Black Americans that increases the risk of serious injury following extreme exertion. And now, academies, uh, well, here's a recommendation from Traci Toffener saying academy should begin screening applicants for the trait. It's a, she says, a simple $75 test that has helped drastically reduce deaths among, uh, athletes. And she's an athletic trainer who's worked with police for years. So I, I would say that they should get the... Uh, I mean, it, it... The article almost implies that police academies should foot the bill for that. If you're applying for a police job, you know, and you don't wanna run the risk of something happening, get the test, you know. Don't make the police agency do it, you know.

14:40

Speaker 1
Get it, get it, get it done, you know. But, uh, uh, being a fitness trainer for, uh, for decades, um, this hits close to home. Uh, Chief Noller?

14:49

Speaker 3
I, I think there's a couple of things here. Obviously, you need to be in shape when you come to a police academy. Um, and that is on the individual to ensure that they have done the work, uh, before that. But the problem we run into is, I can't ask you if you've got a, uh, you know, an illness or a disease-

15:06

Speaker 1
Condition.

15:06

Speaker 3
... or something like a condition, whatever. Wh- I can't even ask you about it. And if HR finds out you have it, they aren't allowed to tell me. Um, so, uh, how am I supposed to protect the individual, who, who is important? We spend a lot of money just hiring the person. Um, it's important for us to protect them, uh, the best that we can. Um, but how am I allow- how am I supposed to do that when the, uh, uh, HIPAA laws have, have, uh, tied our hands so much that I'm not even allowed to ask if you have a condition? HR isn't going to tell me, if they find out that you have it, uh, that you have it. Uh, but yet I'm responsible for the outcome of, of an incident when a person has a condition or doesn't do the work ahead of time to be in shape for the academy. Um, and it's, it's...

15:54

Speaker 3
I can't even ask them-

15:56

Speaker 1
I-

15:56

Speaker 3
... "Are you running? Are you doing these things?"

15:59

Speaker 1
Yeah.

15:59

Speaker 3
Uh, it, it's, it's a crazy dichotomy.

16:02

Speaker 1
Yeah, I know that when I, uh, when I had re-... Well, like I, I, I've taught seasoned police officers in-service training, but then, you know, the academies is really where, you know, y- y- cops, seasoned cops don't really wanna learn anything. They, they just wanna get through the training and, and the testing, Brett, or whatever, and, and get, and get back to doing their thing, right? But recruits, different story. You actually... They're young and you can make an impression. I don't know if you feel the same way, Brett, when y- I know you teach both recruits and, and, and, and actives, but I've, I've, I've gotten a, I've gotten a lot more out of teaching, uh, recruits because they're like sponges. And then, of course, you know, when you leave, you know, for the next 30 years, you know, part of you is still there with that department, you know, because you've trained them. But yeah, they're...

16:41

Speaker 1
W- when they come to the police department and they haven't trained and they're doing this stuff for the first time, just like some people have never been in a fight until they're doing a Red Man, Man Drill or defensive tactics training, which is just sad. Now, I'm, I'm not saying that you can't become a cop if you've never been in a fight before. But certainly, if you don't have that level of conditioning, if you haven't gotten in shape before you become a police officer, it's not a lifestyle for you. And you're not gonna make a lifes- lifestyle change getting into the fo- getting into the force. So if you don't have that lifestyle present before you get into police work, that sh- i- i- look, in my... If I was the agency head, that would negate me hiring those people. That would, that would definitely be a red f- a red flag for me. Um, just like somebody that, uh, was, was predisposed to diabetes because they had a, you know, they were, um...

17:23

Speaker 1
Th- had a fat content that was so high of maybe 20%, 25% body fat. That's someone that tells me, I know that they're gonna drain my pension system if I hire them. They're gonna have other issues. Well, it, it, it, i- i- it's true. You know, I've, I've seen so many injuries, knees going out, a- and I sit here with a bad knee right now. But knees going out and drain on the pension system when we're hiring people that are predisposed to conditions. And there's no protection from ADA, the American with Disabilities Act of 1990. They, they don't have protection for, like, things like obesity and things like that. So these are all actions that you can take and things I've seen firsthand. I've had... I've done Indian runs and can I... I... Hopefully, I can still use that term. It is not... It is... Maybe it's not proper anymore, the Indian runs.

18:04

Speaker 1
But, you know, in, in the heat of the day where we're doing sprint training and I've had people fall out and go into epileptic seizures and stuff and, and they're immediately out from doing this line of work. Rightfully so, but sometimes you just don't know, because some of these things are brought up by in- high-intensity workouts and, and that kind of intensity, you know. Um, and I've also got slammed by the college I taught for because you, y- they thought that push-ups, because you weren't doing something properly, were too punitive, and we didn't want to do that to our police recruits, so. But they can get by with, with, uh, with stuff and don't, don't make them do push-ups, you know.

18:34

Speaker 1
So we have gone a little soft on the people too.Well, Brett-

18:38

Speaker 2
So-

18:38

Speaker 1
... as someone that, that, that excels in physical fitness, uh, what do, what is your take on this?

18:42

Speaker 2
(laughs) Yeah, that's my, that's my gig. Um, th- you know, not too many years ago, one of our local sheriff's office had their own academy and they lived in, uh, uh, mobile... Uh, not, uh, like not double-wide trailers, but mobile structures on post, right? In, in other words-

19:00

Speaker 1
Yeah.

19:00

Speaker 2
... a barracks. They lived in a barracks. The instructors wore Marine Corps style, uh, campaign covers. I think what the problem is, is that... A- and again, I don't know these other agencies. The academy is not boot camp. It is not boot camp. We want officers who can make decisions, not necessarily obey commands. I'd rather have a young officer who was a thinker and questioned everything I said, rather than somebody who stood at attention, said, "Yes, sir," and could run three miles in 18 minutes. Why, why even deliver this stuff to them when it's not gonna be followed up at their agency? How about let's teach them good life skills, nutrition, uh, body mechanics, and set the habits up for long term, rather than running their butts into the ground in the academy, knowing that it's not gonna be followed up later on? Teach them to make decisions.

20:03

Speaker 1
It's gonna be a good discussion 'cause I disagree. Go on the commercial break. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about Compliant Technologies at complianttechnologies.com. And they're committed to providing non-lethal solutions to help officers gain the upper hand safely and rapidly in a humane, low optics manner, utilizing what they call their CD3, which stands for conductive distraction and de-escalation device technology. Now, we all know their flagship product is called The Glove. It's helped officers not only tens of thousands of times, but they've actually had over 250,000 deployments, no injuries, no deaths. It's an amazing stat. They've actually achieved non-lethal status in an arena that predominantly can only offer less lethal results. So when it comes to weapons retention, transitioning to a sidearm or conducted energy weapon, The Glove at compliantetechnologies.com, they virtually eliminated weapons confusion.

20:49

Speaker 1
So stay ahead of the game with Compliant Technologies and the revolutionary CD3 that hundreds of agencies have already turned to nationwide. And friends, take it from me, when it comes to safety, this is one of the most common sense, hands-on solutions that ever come along. So go to compliantetechnologies.com today and tell them that Chip sent you. Again, that is compliantetechnologies.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. The law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock and I'm your host. We're joined by Chief Chris Noller and Captain Brett Bartlett. We're talking about an AP, Associated Press, investigation. Uh, they examined the death of, I believe it was 29 recruits, over a 10-year period. They didn't say how many police recruits there were during that period. So 29 might sound like a big, a, a big number, but, you know, let's face it, we've got around 750 to 800,000 active police officers at any given time, a- a- and, and that's active.

21:41

Speaker 1
Um, so, you know, the number, I don't want to say acceptable because if a death can be avoided, it should be. It seemed like a lot of the problem was really associated with a, a, a sickle cell trait, um, that affects Black Americans, some, some Black Americans, if, if they have that trait, because 60% of the deaths were associated with, uh, with, um, with Blacks, I believe, that have that sickle cell trait. So that would, uh, that would account for a, a, a lot of that. You're not gonna be able to eliminate all the deaths. I, I, I do believe in having safeguards even... Y- I mean, you know, when the hydration was one of the biggest issues for that, and when I, when we did physical fitness training outside, you've got to be able... Even if they don't want to drink, you force them to drink. I've had people in my classes... You know, there are some people out there, guys, that they, they don't perspire. They don't sweat. That is like a death trap. Um, it, it...

22:27

Speaker 1
I mean, you know, if you don't perspire, that is your body's way of cooling. And so those are people that really have to keep your eye on it. They don't perspire. Uh, but there, there should be safeguards. I'm looking at a, um, at a, at a, a post from a streamer. Karen said that, uh, she was disagreeing saying that she comes from a blue family and that we need to have our officers to be able to run if needed. Weight control must be put back into the program too. And number one, how to write a police report. Both parents worked for, uh, uh, New Orleans Police Department, I'm assuming, for 50 years. I agree, uh, to both, uh, to boot camp, uh, style training. So, um, you know, I, uh, I think that we can have both, Brett. I know that you were saying, you know, not so much have the emphasis on the physical fitness thing, but on the mind. A- and you're right. We're not all created equal.

23:11

Speaker 1
I would tell you that I, I wasn't the same officer when I came on at 21 a- a- as I was when I left at 51. Um, you know, I, I grew, I grew up a lot. I'm glad I started at 21, uh, but I, I mean, you know, but working in Tampa where you get a, a lot of exposure to a lot of... I mean, you're, you're doing a lot of death investiga-... You're just... It's, it's a hot, it's, you have a lot of hot calls. You, you grow up quickly. But I, I, I firmly believe, you know, with, um, with, with what we have to do in fighting with bad guys, I think you have to... If you don't have a baseline physical fitness level, um... You remember the guys in Prisoner, that's all they do. They train, train, train, i- in addition to training how they disarm cops and stuff. So I, uh, it, you know, the guys... With the, the best agencies, you're gonna get the guys that are in the best physical shape and the sharpest guys that have the best test scores and stuff.

23:55

Speaker 1
And the guys that don't have the pay and the benefits are gonna get the people that are leftover. That's just... That... You're never gonna change that. An- an- and arguably, it- it's kind of a fair system, uh, from some respects. But I, I want, I want both. I want a physically fit officer that's gonna be less prone to having injuries and he's gonna be able to handle the bad guy when he chases him down. But I want him, uh, I don't want him just to be a jock. I want him to have a good head on his shoulder too.

24:18

Speaker 1
Um-

24:18

Speaker 2
Well, I, I agree, I agree. Teach them those skills. Tell them the importance of being in shape. Show video after video of big fat cops trying to run. I'm not against that. What I mean is this, the academy is not a boot camp. I am not teaching people to obey orders. I am teaching people to make decisions. Why in God's name would you wear a Marine Corps style hat-... in, in a, in a recruit academy, other than this, you're compensating for something.

24:48

Speaker 1
(laughs) And you were a Marine. (laughs)

24:51

Speaker 2
But it, but it was different.

24:52

Speaker 1
Oh, yeah, you still- you still are. I am.

24:52

Speaker 2
I was, I was, I was expected to obey orders, not o- not make decisions. Teach these youngins life skills. (clears throat)

25:01

Speaker 1
Right.

25:01

Speaker 2
The problem is, Chip, just like the range, we teach them how to do all this movement and all this cool stuff. It's never followed up.

25:07

Speaker 1
No, I agree. The agencies-

25:09

Speaker 2
It, in Florida-

25:10

Speaker 1
I-

25:10

Speaker 2
... police hall- police officers have to requalify once every two years-

25:15

Speaker 1
Right.

25:15

Speaker 2
... shooting 38 bullets at a target that's not trying to kill them.

25:19

Speaker 1
A- a- and people watching the show, what the, the... You know, there are some people that may not realize that you, you, you still have some police departments that have their own police academies, but there's a lot of places... I'd say most places now, they're run by colleges or, or, or, or, or educational institutions. And, and after they get put through that training stuff, then they might go to the agency you get hired on and maybe do weeks of some specialized training. You know, we write our reports a certain way at this agency. We have another policy for that way, but, but Brent is right. Um, you know, when you do your training, you know, half the cli- you know, half the class is gonna go to the agencies that train one way. They qualify with firearms, you know, once a year. They may hit the driving pad with the card once every three years.

25:58

Speaker 1
And, and, and they have no fitness test, and then the other half is going to have completely different, you know, criteria and things they have to go through. And there's no, there's no standard, right?

26:08

Speaker 2
Well, we-

26:08

Speaker 1
I mean, I mean, there's a state standard, but the training standard's just all over the place.

26:12

Speaker 3
We have our own academy here at, at my department, and we run people through it. So, we're training them to our standard. Uh, one of the issues we have, though, is, uh, we don't have a physical fitness requirement because, uh, it... And it's not solely because, but largely due to the union, uh, not wanting to, uh, engage in that. Um, so we do try... We, we don't run it like boot camp. I agree with what you're saying, Brett. We are trying to, to train people to, uh, um, you know, be thinkers, uh, to think outside the box, to, to make good, sound decisions. And, and, um, but we are fairly strict. Um, we, we have, uh, expectations in the academy, and, and we do oftentimes, uh, use, uh, um, e- exercise as a form of, uh, uh, of punishment if they don't perform, um, uh, to a reasonable extent. We're not trying to smoke people like, uh, like they used to do in the old days.

27:05

Speaker 3
But, uh, you know, I- uh, we do also have a very, very strong physical component, um, i- in the academy because we're trying to give them the, uh... Like, I think it was... I think you mentioned it, Brett. We're trying to give them the lifestyle skills so that they will take those and continue with it, even though we don't have a continual, uh, uh, PT program, uh, that they have to pass. Now, our SWAT team does. Uh, our SWAT team has physical standards that they have to pass twice a year. Um, and we do two different types of tests. We have a O-Course that's about a mile long, uh, they do one year. And then, uh, National Tactical Officers Association just came out, uh, it's probably been five years now, with a, uh, a standard, uh, uh, PT test that they recommend, so we do that. One, uh, one of the six-month tests is that test, and then the other one is our obstacle course, uh, which turns out to be about a mile long.

27:59

Speaker 3
Um-

27:59

Speaker 1
You know, my last... Well, go, go ahead, Chief.

28:02

Speaker 3
No, go ahead.

28:03

Speaker 1
I was gonna say, my last six years wer- were with the police union, actually. I was an elected official there, still s- you know, detective with the police department. They paid my paycheck, but I was on, on, uh, on full-time release to the union, is the way they work it. And, and so i- it's funny. The union, in my opinion, should, should want the fitness standards because it helps protect the, the, the pensions. Now, I, I don't, you know, I don't know if it's a private pension or state pension or whatever, but, uh, when I worked for the union, the president of the union was not a fitness guy. In fact, I remember one, on one occasion, couldn't even pass the fitness test. And was not... Because of that, th- was slanted for not, not wanting to... Did- not wanting fitness standards, a- and wanted, or wanted, wa-... Our, our fitness standards were so lax. I'm, I mean, I'm telling you, we had a...

28:50

Speaker 1
I could do the test in two minutes and 46 seconds, and we had, like, uh, like, six minutes and 11 seconds to do the test. Um, so it was ridiculously loose. Um, but we had people that wanted it to go away, unfortunately. But I, I, I think the union should be the other way around. You want to protect the... You know, you want that baseline standard because if you don't, you're a liability to the other officers and to the citizens if you can't fight your way out of a paper bag or have just some baseline level of fitness, not to mention protecting the pensions and the, and the, and the, uh, solvency of that, you know, of that.

29:21

Speaker 1
You want there to be-

29:22

Speaker 3
Right.

29:22

Speaker 1
... a sound fund. And when you're paying people that have all these injuries and have to do disability retirements out, I've seen the effects of that. It, it, it, it's horrible.

29:31

Speaker 3
Yeah, I agree. Um, uh, you know, we have a state plan, uh, which is a little bit different. It's not a... It's not just our, our city. And, and look, I, I... We have a good union. I, I'm not trying to disparage our union, uh, but that's one area that they're not at- they're not on fire for right now, um-

29:46

Speaker 1
Gotcha.

29:46

Speaker 3
... is, is that, uh, so.

29:49

Speaker 1
Well, uh, if you guys are- And one of the, one of the problems is, Chip, you can't... Chief, right? You can't go up to one of your officers and go, "Buddy, you're a hog. You need to, you need to do something, 'kay? Yeah

29:58

Speaker 3
"Matter of fact, I'm taking you off active. I'm, I'm, I'm suspending you with pay until you go get..." But that cannot happen. That cannot happen. And would you agree that cops who are in good shape, good runners are, are better able to handle themselves in a physical situation, and there are fewer complaints from, from those guys that know DT, know it well, good shape- Yeah

30:23

Speaker 1
... know how to shoot-

30:23

Speaker 3
Absolutely.

30:24

Speaker 1
... know how to control themselves?

30:26

Speaker 3
I mean, there's a level of... Yeah, there's a level of confidence that comes with that-

30:28

Speaker 1
Confide- yeah, that's it.

30:29

Speaker 3
... and you don't have to, you don't have to- That's it ... uh, uh, compensate for in other ways, uh

30:33

Speaker 1
Yeah.

30:34

Speaker 3
... 100%. I was not much of a runner. I'm not built to be a runner. I ca-

30:37

Speaker 1
(laughs)

30:37

Speaker 3
I, I was on the team. I did the O-Course, and I did, uh... We didn't do the NTOA, uh, uh, PT w- uh, uh, came after-

30:44

Speaker 1
Yeah.

30:44

Speaker 3
... I got off the academy, uh, or after, off the SWAT team, but, uh, I'm certainly not in fighting shape today. Uh, I'm not gonna try to say I am, but, um, I was a, a pretty big lifter, um, and, uh, I, I felt confident as heck when I went out on the-

31:00

Speaker 1
Yeah.

31:00

Speaker 3
... on the street. And, I- it does, it do- it also changes how people treat you-

31:04

Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.

31:05

Speaker 3
... uh, when you look like you're in shape, uh, and-

31:07

Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.

31:07

Speaker 3
... and squared away, uh, than when you show up looking like a soup sandwich.

31:11

Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. I, I did not know that this discussion was gonna take off in such an interesting fashion. It's been a, it's been a great discussion, so I'm glad, I'm glad. It's the second story we're still talking about it, but it's, but it's been great. Um-

31:22

Speaker 2
You know, and one thing I will say, if, if I can before we end it, um, you go back to what we talked about with the, with the condition, like the, like, for example, sickle cell, um, it's the same issue I have addressing people that are overweight or out of shape, is that I am not allowed to, uh, to talk to them about those things.

31:39

Speaker 1
No. Mm-mm.

31:40

Speaker 2
And it's how, how are you gonna run a effective program when, when that's the case?

31:45

Speaker 1
Good point. Well, gentlemen, coming up on our third commercial break, stick with us, guys. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about GunLearn at gunlearn.com. And hey, they got something new going on. We all know about the certified firearms specialist, right? They have this program where you become a certified firearms specialist. But now they've hooked up with Smarter Degree, Smarter Degree's university partners, and now that certification that actually Captain Brett Bartlett already has, even if you got it up to five years ago, you can convert that into college credits. So yeah, you get rewarded for that education. And gunlearn.com of course is the first and only company they offer a step-by-step program that takes you from your present knowledge level to become a safe, accurate, and competent certified firearms specialist. Now, they've been doing this since 1996.

32:26

Speaker 1
They've taught everything that LEOs need to know about firearms and ammunition to all facets of law enforcement. And you can start the day with online training, or you can register to attend a live seminar. You can actually get free training for yourself and all the personnel at your agency by hosting a seminar for absolutely no cost. The founder, Dan and Kelly, put this together. You can go to thegunlearn.com to get more information. Again, that's gunlearn.com. And, uh, hey, if you haven't been there before, go through the day. You don't know what you don't know. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I'm your host. We're joined by Chief Chris Noller in Colorado, and Captain Brett Bartlett in Florida. So, uh, great discussion about, uh, about police academies, about training and about, you know, fitness and defensive tactics.

33:06

Speaker 1
You know, we d- we started taking this story on about, uh, 29 recruits dying over a 10-year period, but they didn't tell how many recruits actually were going through training over the 10-year period. So the number, although it might seem high, and, and yeah, certainly some of these could have been prevented, I suspect it's not, not that high compared to the s- the sheer numbers of people who almost certainly have gone through, you know, police training. Uh, but there h- there, there should be standards, not going out and running i- if the temperature reaches a certain level, the humidity level is a certain level, and, and forcing people to hydrate even if they don't want to and things like that. Uh, great discussion, gentlemen. Uh, we're gonna cover our first story with a video component, and this is actually a new one that came out. I found it on our favorite Rumble channel called This is Butter.

33:50

Speaker 1
Body cam shows a machete-wielding man being fatally shot, uh, by the Houston Police Department officer.

33:57

Speaker 5
Stop! Stop! Stop! Put your hands up! Put your hands up! Put your hands up! Put your hands up! Put your hands up! 10-8-72. 10-8-72. One male shot.

34:27

Speaker 1
And it was a, it was really a small little Asian officer, and this dude had just robbed the Family Dollar Store, and i- i- it's pretty wild. So we're in Houston, Texas. So Houston, they have released this body cam footage of a machete-wielding guy. He ends up being shot by an officer after the robbery at the Family Dollar Store. The suspect was identified as a 33-year-old named Ernest Duke Harrison. So Houston gets a call about 3:25 in the middle of the afternoon from a Family Dollar Store about a guy that stole some items from the store, and that just would have been theft, right? But he threatened employees on the way out w- and he was brandishing a knife, which, of course, turned into robbery. So officers later find our bad guy, Harrison. He's on a bridge pedestrian overpass going over Highway 288, and our female officer rolls up that's got a body cam.

35:11

Speaker 1
And so she starts, she gets up on this, this pedestrian walkway, and the guy's off in the distance, and she starts giving him verbal commands. When she did, he turns around and he starts coming at her, you know, with this, uh, machete, it looked like. Now, the officer is identified as L Jumanji. She ended up firing and hitting the bad guy. He goes to the hospital in critical condition, and they announced on May 20th that he, that he died. So, um, she, it was, it wa- it seemed every bit of a good shoot to me and, and effective. She hit her target. Um, but, you know, we had other officers that were there running up from the other side and stuff. Um, curious what you guys thought about the, uh, about the shoot. But, um, I had to do some slow motion of the, uh, of the female, because she had, like, blonde hair, but she was Asian, so she had the highlights is what kind of threw me off. But she was a small little thing. What'd you think, Captain?

35:58

Speaker 2
Asian, you say, huh, Chip?

36:00

Speaker 1
Yeah.

36:01

Speaker 2
Okay, all right. Right on. Okay, well, uh-

36:02

Speaker 1
You don't think she was A- you don't think she was Asian?

36:04

Speaker 2
I don't know. It doesn't matter. She's a small-statured person. It doesn't matter. I can't believe... Chip, we're gonna have to have counseling, uh, Chris, we're gonna have counseling-

36:13

Speaker 1
Well, there's not... How many, how many Asian police officers do we have? So I think it, it's a good, you know, it's, it's good for females, and it's good for the, for the small number of Asian officers that we have and doing police work. I'm throwing them a bone. I'm, I'm calling it now. It, it was good. It was good.

36:25

Speaker 2
Y- you, you need to make a appointment with HR. We'll talk later.

36:28

Speaker 1
(laughs)

36:28

Speaker 2
All right, so back to the shooting. Um, it was a very unusual place, very narrow, very narrow place that they were at. She didn't have anywhere to go. And, and, uh, she didn't go crazy with her commands. She gave commands, but it, she didn't lose her mind. The... But I always wonder about the one shot. I always wonder about the one shot. Why did you fire one shot? But it, it was a good hit. He went down. Good for her. She won the fight. No matter where she came from, good for her.

36:58

Speaker 1
Now, now-

36:59

Speaker 2
Right. Uh, I... Go ahead, Chip. I'm sorry.

37:00

Speaker 1
Now, I was gonna say, Brett, I thought Brett was gonna go with, "Well, you know, she's Asian, so they all know martial arts. So why, why did she have to go lethal? Why didn't she just use the martial arts stuff against the bad guy coming at her with a machete?"

37:09

Speaker 2
I'm not, I'm not touching this, the whole thing with the, with the black hole.

37:10

Speaker 1
I'm glad, I'm glad, Brett, you did not go there. I'm glad you didn't go there. All right.

37:14

Speaker 2
Oh, okay. So you're trying to test... Oh, got it.

37:17

Speaker 1
(laughs)

37:18

Speaker 3
So I, you know, I, I, uh, from what I understand, when she fired that round, it hit him in the head and he dropped like a sack of potatoes. And that's probably why I thought it was, uh, I mean, she didn't have many options there. The guy was coming at her with a machete. Uh, there were, like you said, there was nowhere to go. Um, you know, and it's sort of another case of, uh, stupid games, stupid prizes. Uh, um, you know, it's, uh, unfortunate for sure, but, um, I... Man, she was ... And she was composed, uh, uh, afterwards was, uh, you know, trying to help render aid and do all those kinds of things. I mean, uh, I was very impressed, uh, uh, by the officer. Male, female, Asian, not Asian, uh, I think that they, they, the officer did a phenomenal job and that, that department should be proud. And, and the other two officers that came up to help were the same way. They're just all about business.

38:07

Speaker 1
You know, we have a lot of male officers that are back and like, you know, "Show me your hands! Show me your hands!" Now this guy, I, he cr- he crumbled. He went and there was no movement. Now, she did not hesitate. She went up and she went hands-on pretty quickly.

38:19

Speaker 3
Yeah.

38:19

Speaker 1
I- it wasn't like she's surrounded by a lot of other officers too. So she, she had a lot of confidence and, and didn't wait, didn't stand back for like minutes and let the guy bleed out or whatever. I, I, she generally ... I, I was ... There were so many things that this girl did, did great. Um, and the command presence, I, I was just so thoroughly impressed with everything that she did. So, uh, yeah, I, I love, I love this. The bad guy died. Um, not a lot of sympathy from me on this. He's charging our female cop, you know, with the, uh, with the machete in his hand. And I'm glad she didn't let him get any closer. But yeah, everything justified. I was very happy with it. Uh, we got four minutes, guys. Uh, let's, let's take another one if, if it's okay with you. Um, and we had, there was a K-9 involved in this one. I, I love this one. Rumble.com, our favorite law enforcement video channel, again, called This is Better.

39:04

Speaker 1
So, Bend, which is a community in Oregon, uh, burglary suspect throws Molotov cocktail and bites a K-9, sets himself on fire doing it. You know, whoever said the bad guys are the brightest guys, right? So a Bend man, uh, in Bend, Oregon was arrested on, on a Friday morning, accused by police of burglarizing a gas station and throwing a, a Molotov cocktail at a responding sheriff's deputy, who was really outside the convenience store. We got surveillance video from inside so it's kinda hard to tell what's going on outside until our K-9 comes through the door, right? Surveillance video from inside the store though, it shows the break-in or suspect, you know, comes through, crawls in, and, uh, and so here's how it goes down. It's the Space Age Fuel Station, gas station. Uh, the person calling in the report, he's watching the burglary on a surveillance camera and he reported that the guy is damaging property. He's building Molotov cocktails inside the store.

39:53

Speaker 1
The guy, the, the owner of the, of the place is watching this all on surveillance, uh, camera, and he's dousing the store, the floor, with flammable products, you know, an accelerant. And so the Space Age owner's name is Danny, uh, Joel, and he's watching this guy. So, and he's on the phone with dispatch. So the individual breaks in with a rock. He, uh, shuffles around. He grabs a bunch of, uh, or damages products then grabs a fuel additive, tries to light the store on fire. Surveillance video shows a large rock being thrown through the door, shattering the glass. He's wearing a hoodie and shorts. And then he grabs some items from the freezer, which made no sense to me. He, uh, later begins throwing liquid around the store. He hits the surveillance camera. So, Deschutes County Sheriff's Office deputies respond and they, um, you know, the door, they see the door shatter. The suspect lit one of the Molotov cocktails.

40:38

Speaker 1
He throws it at the deputy that's outside the store and, but, but when he does it, I guess the, the, the stuff came out, a part of it came out and it lit the rugs on fire that he's standing on. And he doesn't realize it til he's on fire. It's kinda crazy. And so then they send in the c- ... I'm gonna accelerate this. Um, they send the K-9 in, and, and the K-9's, you know, it, it seemed like a ni- ... The K-9 was, it was a nice K-9. It wasn't like a mauling K-9, but the bad guy had his right hand free. I don't know what the object was he tagged the K-9 with. Hit the K-9 right in, in the head. Knocked him, you know, silly. K-9 runs away, and, uh, then the bad guy, he jumps like i thought he'd been shot by somebody. Uh, but what it was, his leg was on fire and he finally became aware of it because he felt the heat (laughs) and then he starts like roaring around trying to put the fire out.

41:25

Speaker 1
He stands up to give up and then the K-9, the dog comes back in and, uh, gets another, tries to get another bite or two, and then they, then they get K-9 Vinnie back out, and they arrest the bad guy. Uh, Steven Earl Ramsey, 55 years old, sustained minor injuries and did $11,000 to $15,000 worth of damage in the store. We got a minute and 20 seconds, guys. Brett, you want to start us off?

41:46

Speaker 2
Yeah, I, I like sending the dog in, but I thought after you send the dog in, the handler's supposed to go in after the, you know, after the dog. I, I'm just-

41:54

Speaker 1
Yeah.

41:54

Speaker 2
... wondering why. And it's like the dog ... I'm just k- ... I don't know the dog. Dog looked around and went-

41:59

Speaker 1
(laughs)

41:59

Speaker 2
... "Hey." So he goes out.

42:01

Speaker 1
(laughs)

42:02

Speaker 2
Goes to tell Bill. "Bill, what the heck, bro? You didn't ... So here's what we got." So he said, "All right, listen. Go back in and bite him again and then come back and-" "All right, I'm going back in." I, it was just funny. That, that guy was a, he was a doofus. He was just, you know-

42:17

Speaker 1
Yeah.

42:17

Speaker 2
... he was just a idiot.

42:19

Speaker 1
Yeah. Chief, Chief Noller?

42:22

Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, I agree with Brett. I mean, the, it would have been nice if the handler would have gone in to, to kind of back up the dog, but I, I would like to know what charges they got on that guy for hitting that dog like that. Uh, I was kind of afraid, uh, and worried that they had hit him with like pieces of that bottle and cut the dog or something. So I, I don't know.

42:40

Speaker 1
Yeah.

42:40

Speaker 3
Because the dog's reaction was, was interesting. It wasn't like ... You know, if you, uh, normally if you, if you punch a police dog, it just gets them crazy, um, and they go after you a little bit harder in my experience. Um, but, you know, if you cut them or stab them or something, I think you get a little bit different reaction.

42:57

Speaker 1
Yeah, they, they said the dog was definitely injured. They didn't say the level of the injury. But yeah, you could, you could tell, it, it, it rung that dog's clock. So I-

43:05

Speaker 3
Yeah.

43:05

Speaker 1
It just made me have, you know, I'm, I ... Anyhow. Less empathy for the bad guy from me. He, he's lucky he, he got out with just getting burns, you know, on his body. But, uh, another great show. Uh, Chief Noller and Captain Bartlett, thank you guys so much for being on the show. I do want to take this opportunity to talk about The Window Blue at thewindowblue.org. Lieutenant Randy Sutton's 501 (c) (3) that's helping cops out on the world of hurt that are suffering from things like PTSD and other issues. I want to mention that Brett is also the founder of Exumber Defense Solutions at exumberdefense.com. Uh, Chief Noller, uh, do you have any books that you want to hold up in front of the screen today, uh, that you, uh, that you ... I, I know, there he goes. He's going, he's going for it. I got 19 ... There you go. Search and Seizure in uh, you got it right, uh, Anthony Bandiera's book. So, uh, thank you guys.

43:50

Speaker 1
Gullis.com, ComplyingTechnologies.com, GunLearn.com, I'm here at LifeSaver Recruiting, and Tubbells. Thanks, guys. We'll see you back tomorrow, 12:00 noon Eastern. (rock music)