00:00

Speaker 1
(Rock music playing) Welcome to Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. My name is Chip Deblocque, and I'm your host, and we're a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a law enforcement perspective. And you recognize him, Vaughn Klem. He's here with, from, uh, Force Science, and he's a, an attorney, former law enforcement as well. Thanks so much for being back on the show, Vaughn. Love having ya. And, uh, we got some deep stuff that we're gonna be talking about today as well, so, um... And, uh, and that was some, you know, talking off-camera before the show, uh, some interesting stuff, and he, he is, he's dialed in on what's going on in the national news. Hey, a shout-out to our sponsors. You know, we have our title sponsor, Gulls@Gulls.com. We also have compliantetechnologies.com, our satellite sponsor. They got us on satellite radio back on Cinco de Mayo, May the 5th last year.

00:57

Speaker 1
We also have gunlearn.com, mymedicare.live, safeguardrecruiting.com, our streaming sponsor, and thanks to them, we're streaming to about a million followers right now during the live show. And then, twobells.com. They've built their new online store at leoroundtable.com. You can go to the store and get cool gear like the mug behind me. We got shirts. We got hats. We got all kinds of stuff. I even got, uh, uh, uh, what... I bought a bunch of shirts, uh, for Brett for, uh, SHOT Shows. He never wears them, though, so I-I can't really show you those. (laughs) So... But we don't, we don't make a, a dime off of anything on the online store. We're just trying to get our gear out there, so the prices are inexpensive. So, check that out. And, uh, uh, a thank you to Brian Burns for the Tampa Free Press and tampafp.com. Thanks for carrying our content, Brian. Also, Ray Dietrich, with formerlawman.com, and our very own Travis Yates with lawofficer.com.

01:40

Speaker 1
Thanks to all those entities for helping make this show happen. And now, what in the world are we gonna be talking about today? Uh, we've got a, a special article. Uh, Vaughn, uh, is in it. Uh, Top Five Police Recruiting Lessons from Vaughn Klem. So, if you've got an agency and you're having some hiring woes, pay attention. We're gonna give you a little free bit of advice. And, uh, we've also got Trump's Venezuela Gamble and America's Shifting National Security Strategy. We've got some excerpts from that article, uh, which is, um... It was a, it was a heavily slanted article. It, it took me a little bit of work to be able to extract some truthful stuff out of there, but, but we, we found it. Uh, and then we have Captured Venezuelan Dictator Maduro. He pleads n- not guilty before the judge cuts off his outburst. We've got Albuquerque police fatally shooting a guy named Bryan Womack who was attacking a woman with a hammer, of all things.

02:28

Speaker 1
We have a burglary suspect cries in pain when he's being tased by a, a Port Orange deputy. And the trial begins for former officer in the Uvalde response. We haven't talked about Uvalde in a while. Then we got Monterey County deputy shot an armed man through the windshield. And then, finally, federal judge dismisses a consent decree that was meant to support police reform in Louisville, of all places. And the funny thing is, is that the agency wanted it. They were begging the judge to bring it through, bring it on. And the federal government, the new Trump DOJ said, "You know what? We're done with these, these g-" They know. The, it's, it's almost like the feds and Pam Bondi and, uh, and company, they know these things are bad for America and they don't work. It's just too... It's just shocking that Louisville, the light bulb didn't go off and they're not bright enough to figure it out. So, we're, we'll be covering that, a- assuming that we have time to get to it.

03:20

Speaker 1
So, uh, Vaughn, if you're, if you're ready... You ready to go to the first two main stories?

03:24

Speaker 2
Yeah. Let's do it.

03:25

Speaker 1
You're, you're, uh, you're all over the first one, so you get- get ready to, get ready to talk and keep that mic fresh and open (laughs) 'cause it's gonna be quick. Uh, lawofficer.com, the Top Five Police Recruiting Lessons from Vaughn Klem. Now-

03:39

Speaker 2
(coughs)

03:39

Speaker 1
... I didn't even ask Vaughn for his per- i- his permission before I'm gonna give out these, these five things. I'm just gonna touch on these. And, and of course, there's... You, you, you, uh, you gave an interview with Safeguard Recruiting, uh, but hey, I'm gonna... Here, here's a, a cut to the chase. The five themes are: cast a clear and honorable vision. That makes sense, number one. Number two, lead from the front. Leadership matters more than perks. And then, you know, they're always giving these hiring incentives and stuff, right? Then number three, be honest about the realities and the standards of the job. Don't sugarcoat it. Number four, train smarter and advertise that training. And then, lastly, number five, defend realistic human performance in critical incidents. And that sounds like being a courageous police leader and backing your troops. So, Vaughn, can you, can you break this down for us?

04:28

Speaker 2
Yeah. First of all, thanks for having me, and I wanna, you know... I didn't know that article was out there until you pointed it out to me, so-

04:34

Speaker 1
(laughs)

04:34

Speaker 2
... hey, it's good to see. Uh, that, that was really premised or based on a, uh, interview I just did with, uh, Dr. Travis Yates over at Safeguard, right? So, it was a fantastic sit-down. The full video is on there. Uh, and let me tell you, we just wanted to talk a little bit about what were the challenges that police officers were facing in recruiting, um, and where are we at today with those challenges. Have th- has it improved at all? And from what I could tell, it's improved drastically for a lot of the agencies I talked to. Um, really coinciding with the latest election and sort of the shift in, in how policing was being addressed, um, or being, uh, framed. And so, that came up with the first one, class to cure on-, uh, clear, honorable vision. I don't think I framed it that way, but I like how it got framed. And really, here's all it came down to. We, for years, were sitting there being told cops are racist, abusive, and corrupt. Hey, do you wanna sign up?

05:25

Speaker 2
Like, I can't make it any clearer. Like, you're-

05:27

Speaker 1
(laughs)

05:27

Speaker 2
Who's gonna sign up for that, right? Cops are systemically racist, abusive, and corrupt, um, and we wondered why we were having recruiting problems. And all I said was, "Look, it, it's n- it's no different for anything you try to inspire or persuade somebody to join. And that is you have to cast a vision." And, and the benefit of American policing is we have an amazing vision to cast, right? So, I just said, "Look, if you wanna know about the culture of policing, it frustrates me to no end when I hear, 'We gotta change the culture. We gotta change the culture.'" And I said, "What culture are you talking about?" Because the culture I grew up with and I consistently see today-... or police officers who run to the sound of gunfire, they stop the bleeding, they start the breathing, they are the ones who, who are committed to selfless service and duty first, right? This is what, who we surrounded ourself with and we still see out there. I said, "Why are you not painting that picture?

06:22

Speaker 2
Why are you not casting that vision so that people who are courageous and who wanna have service minds, who, who do want to engage in a culture of constant and never-ending improvement, right, people who are tough and smart, that is who we surround ourselves with in American policing? Why not paint that picture? And certainly when you do, people will line up around the block to, to join that, that industry and that profession." So that's, that was sort of a, a, you know, a quick rundown of what we talked about in that space. Um, but you've gotta cast a vision people wanna become a part of.

06:57

Speaker 1
I love it. And it, and it makes complete sense. So these agencies that are having such a hard time, and I know that they're ... (laughs) you, you, you touched on, you know, perks. "We're gonna give you a $40,000 signing bonus," or, "We're gonna give you this, we're gonna give you that." And, uh, you know, I always worry about cops doing the job for the right reason. I remember when I first got involved in law enforcement, I wasn't making a lot of money, um, especially with the way I grew up. My dad made, my, my dad made a really good living, but it made me ... The, the, the good perk about that, I learned a very good work ethic early on. And, um, I couldn't, I didn't have the capability to make as much money as my old man, uh, but I liked nice things and I worked really, really hard to get ni- 'cause I still liked nice things and I had appreciation for nice things. Um, and then a buddy of mine, um, from, uh, high school called me up and he said, uh, h- well, you know what?

07:45

Speaker 1
He was overweight, out of shape, and, uh, had no fitness regimen at all, and he wanted, he was interested in getting the job where I was working at the police department because of the money, and the money wasn't really that great, but he was working at, like, RadioShack and stuff, and it was just like ... And just seeing guys like that, that were taking the job for the wrong reason and he didn't ... You know, he, he never would have made it through anyhow, but it's just, that was a guy you don't want, does, does not belong. It's a calling, you know, and it's a special job for special people. I don't mean that we're better than other people, I just mean that you have to have a certain aptitude in, in order to be able to do law enforcement, i- i- in my opinion, and you gotta be able to, you gotta be able to turn it off too. Just 'cause, you know, bad guy punches you and then puts his hands up and says, "Okay, arrest me.

08:28

Speaker 1
Put, I'll put my hands behind my back." You just can't, you know, there are ... I know a lot of guys that simply wouldn't be able to handle that. You know, they're gonna get theirs in first before they, you know, and they, they're not gonna make good cops. So, um, um, so I, I, I appreciate the article and, and giving a, a free, uh, a free, you know, Dummies 101 lesson on, on how they, on how they do recruitment and it make, it makes c- complete sense.

08:51

Speaker 2
Yeah, and I think, I think we gotta get away from ... We ha- we have to stop running away from ... Look, if I tell somebody what, what wakes me up in the morning, what do I get visu- viscerally excited about, right, and someone says, "I wanna go s- I j- I wanna go fight evil. I wanna go slay dragons. I wanna go combat evil," and we have people going, "Well, now, you can't call people evil."

09:12

Speaker 1
(laughs)

09:12

Speaker 2
You know, you can't ... And you're like, "Okay, well-"

09:14

Speaker 1
Yeah.

09:15

Speaker 2
Look, uh, when you're casting a vision and I, I see myself, yes, of course, not everybody's evil. Some people are having really bad days, and then there are a population of people out there who are just pure evil, victimizing other people. We're gonna see one today, hitting someone in the head with a hammer, right?

09:31

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.

09:31

Speaker 2
And you think to yourself when you watch that, if you're, if you are driven towards wanting to be that cop at that place at that time, like, "That's where I wanna be. When stuff like that's happening, that's where I wanna be."

09:44

Speaker 1
Right.

09:44

Speaker 2
Then this is the job for you, right? And it's not because you like beating on people. It's because you like standing between good and evil. You like standing between people who are corrupt or people who are abusing other people and potential victims. And you said, you know, not everybody's able or willing to defend themselves. Not ev- everyone has the intellect to be a cop, they don't have the physicality to be a cop, they don't have the restraint, like you mentioned. I talked to a bunch of guys in the military who were Special Forces guys, and let me tell you, in case of war, break glass, that's who these guys are, and they were the first to tell me, "I could never be a cop." (laughs) And they ... And what they were saying was, "I'm not turning it off once that" ...

10:24

Speaker 1
Yeah.

10:24

Speaker 2
... "once I get the green light." And that's not to say we don't have military members who are highly restrained and highly disciplined. Of course they are, but they understood their own limitations, and I think you highlighted one of them.

10:36

Speaker 1
Yeah, and you need that. There's nothing wrong with that. You need guys like that in those positions, and God k- God bless them. Um, hey, we're coming up on our first commercial break though. Guys, stick with us. A lot more to come. We got some Venezuela stuff coming up. We'll be right back. (instrumental music plays) My family only cares about one thing: that I come home safe.

10:57

Speaker 3
At Gulls, every order begins with a promise made with purpose, stitched for support, backed with pride, answered by dedicated hands, delivering the standard you have sworn to uphold. We serve more than the mission. We serve the person. Each piece is engineered to help get our first responders through the shift and back home safe.

11:49

Speaker 1
Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip Deblocque and I'm your host. We're joined by Attorney Vaughn Klemp, former police officer as well with Force Science, and, uh, and Vaughn, um, thanks so much for the, the introduction into the right ways to get guys to come work for your agency and what, and what they do. Um, are you ready to cover the Venezuela, uh, the latest and the greatest with that? We got two stories back-to-back.

12:13

Speaker 2
Yeah, let's talk about it, but I tell you, we're gonna have a lot of question marks at the end of this, at the end of each sentence instead of periods or exclamation points. There's just so many-

12:21

Speaker 1
(laughs)

12:21

Speaker 2
... unanswered questions right now.

12:22

Speaker 1
Well, this is gonna be short because, you know, we covered it pretty much in depth yesterday, about 45 minutes, the majority of the show. On this one, though, uh, realclearpolitics.com, and look, this article, even though r- Real Clear Politics, you know, one of our Secret Service guys, Rich Deripoli, hooked me up with them, so it's a great source to get news. But it's mixed in liberal, conservative, and, you know, you, you know, you pick up very quickly, you know, where they're at. So this is extremely left-leaning. There's a lot of inaccurate data in here a- and some flat-out falsehoods. Um, and, and then anything that's left up to interpretation, they're going the other, the other way on that. So it, it's titled, "Trump's Venezuela Gamble and America's Shifting National Security Strategy." So what they're saying is that Trump took a risk, and they're saying that he's changing his mind on national security strategy. Like, he's not doing what he said he was gonna do.

13:14

Speaker 1
So I'm gonna jump down to the nuts and bolts of this. Venezuela, under President, uh, Nicolás Maduro, um, had opened its arms to China, Cuba, Iran, and Russia by way of both trade and military cooperation, which is true. Been, been, uh, thoroughly established with multiple media sets. That's not even up for debate. The White House allege that this amounted to a violation of the Monroe Doctrine, and people... and, and you're, if you haven't heard about the Monroe Doctrine- Doctrine lately, you're, it's, uh, uh, you're, you're going to. A 19th century pres- precedent named after then-President James Monroe, and, uh, it, it, it basically... They say it's an opposition to colonial meddling in the Americas by the Europeans, but they real- really want... "Look, we're gonna control. We're in the Western hemisphere. We, we're gonna control that.

14:01

Speaker 1
You guys control your own hemisphere, but we don't want our enemy to be able to park and, and, and put up shot- shop in Venezuela, in South America, and be able to launch an attack, you know, right next door to us. Uh, so we wanna really have some kind of input and control over that." Uh, and that is like... That's not a Donald Trump thing. That is like... That, that was started with President James Monroe. So now, they're calling it the, the Dunroe Doctrine, though, which is kinda humorous. And, uh, it, it, it... Then finally, we're gonna jump down to where they talk about Attorney General Pam Bondi, who we love. Uh, she characterized the operation as an arrest with military support, and Marco Rubio has also said that extremely well. Uh, Kentucky Rep. Thomas Massie wondered, though, how that legal characterization applied to Trump's promise to take over and run the country, and, uh, that question will soon be litigated in Capitol Hill.

14:51

Speaker 1
So, I think that we established yesterday that because they're titling this as a law enforcement operation, um, and, uh, you know, it's not... Un- unless you start opening up other doors, it's not a, it's not a mili- military occupation of a different country. You're not... We're not necessarily overthrowing governments and just doing an invasion and all these things. We're grabbing a bad guy that we've... that, that's currently wanted and that's been indicted here in the States. And, uh, it's just, uh, you know, it, it, it's just a bonus that the guy's, you know, killing hundreds of thousands of Americans with the dope that they're sending over here illegally too. But it, it is a fair question that, uh, that Rep. Massie is asking, um, the promise to take over and run the country. Not saying that we're gonna do it permanently. There's gonna have to be a transition of power, but that... It, it... I have to acknowledge, in all truthfulness, that it's a fair question.

15:38

Speaker 1
So, um, Vaughn, uh, and I don't want to spend a lot of time on this one because there's really not a lot of substance on this one, and we have, we have the, the plea coming up for Maduro, but, uh, your thoughts on this one?

15:48

Speaker 2
Yeah, I think, I think some of the bigger challenges I've seen isn't, isn't whether or not we had the legal authority. That stuff's gonna be fleshed out, and ultimately there, there may not be a right answer. Other than might makes right. This is... When I... I practiced international operational law and domestic operational law when I was a military attorney, and, and these are really complicated questions. And sometimes it does... it really came down to... There are international norms, and a violation of the international ph- norm is sometimes just unenforceable when you're a superpower. And that might just be some of the logic, whether that's tasteful or distasteful, whether it sits well. It either motivates you or it disincentivizes you, you know. Uh, but when I'm looking at this, this just happened.

16:29

Speaker 2
Like, the idea of what's gonna happen next, so far the people who have, who have predicted all sorts of, of, uh, you know, slippery slope and, and this parade of horribles for every Trump decision. You know, World War III is around the corner with every Trump decision, and none of it has played out. And so, you've got really smart people in that administration working with Donald Trump, um, in a, as they say, judicious transition. Um, and so we'll see what that looks like. And the thing I do notice that's frustrating is sometimes our politicians, particularly people who are new to international operational law, like use of force law, it's highly complicated. It's highly nuanced. And so Donald Trump or anyone who's sort of new to those issues, he's a phenomenal businessman. This is his, you know, his, his initial foray (laughs) into the use of force internationally.

17:24

Speaker 2
He's gonna talk in the gist, where taking over the country might mean something very different to him than what it actually means to the lawyers and to the military.

17:32

Speaker 1
Agree.

17:32

Speaker 2
Uh, and so that sort of, that sort of shorthand language is just providing a lot of fodder for the discussion. Fair enough. You know, lots of unanswered questions. I love that they, that (laughs) all of us are getting much smarter now in international operational law. Um, but I can tell you historically, we have kidnapped bad guys internationally. Um, the question is, how does that affect their criminal case? Uh, historically, it hasn't. Uh, but what we do know is when you pull somebody into the United States federal court system, we then blanket them with the constitutional rights as though they were US citizens.

18:07

Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.

18:07

Speaker 2
And so that, that is sort of interesting. That's why he's getting his, his, uh, due process rights. He's likely been Mirandized once he got here. You know, all those sorts of protections now overlay him, uh, since we decided to bring him into our court system. So we'll see how it plays out. Um-Uh, I, the other thing I would just comment on that I find a little bit ridiculous is a lot of the cr- critics are demanding that he choose one justification, just one. Is it the oil? Is it the, is it the dope that th- he's running? Is it the fact that he's the head of a trans-international terrorist organization? Is it the fact that he's the, the base of operations for some of our adversaries, our competitors? However you want to frame him. Uh, he doesn't have to pick one and as he's giving a press conference where they're trying to explain what was the rationale or justification, um, i- we have, well, "Is it, is it the drugs or is it the fact, is it the oil?" I was like, okay, well, stop.

19:09

Speaker 2
That's childish. He doesn't have to pick one. It can be all of the above.

19:14

Speaker 1
Good point, and good segue for our next article. So guys, stick with us. It's still gonna be Venezuela when we come back. We have a commercial break, our second one. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about Compliant Technologies at complianttechnologies.com and they're committed to providing non-lethal solutions to help officers gain the upper hand safely and rapidly in a humane, low-ontics manner, utilizing what they call their CD3, which stands for conductive distraction and de-escalation device technology. Now, we all know their flagship product is called the glove. It's helped officers not only tens of thousands of times, but they've actually had over 250,000 deployments. No injuries, no deaths. It's an amazing stat. They've actually achieved non-lethal status in an arena that predominantly can only offer less lethal results.

19:56

Speaker 1
When it comes to weapons retention, transitioning to a sidearm or conducted energy weapon, the glove at complianttechnologies.com, they have virtually eliminated weapons confusion. So stay ahead of the game with Compliant Technologies and the revolutionary CD3 that hundreds of agencies have already turned to nationwide. And friends, take it from me, when it comes to safety, this is one of the most commonsense, hands-on solutions that's ever come along. So go to complianttechnologies.com today and tell them that Chip sent you. Again, that is complianttechnologies.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host. We're joined by attorney Vaughn Kleym from FORCE Science. And you know what? You, you gave us a good segue to lead from, uh, Venezuela to the, to going to court here in New York.

20:37

Speaker 1
But before we do that, Vaughn, I know that you've got something special going, uh, you know, for FORCE Science and you've got a training coupon. Could you tell our, our listening audience that's on the radio about that? I know the streamers can, uh, you know, can see it, at least the people on, on, on video on YouTube, but can you tell everybody about what you guys have going on at FORCE Science and, and, uh, so they can take advantage of the opportunity?

20:58

Speaker 2
Yeah. Thank you so much. Hey, we got a couple of things going on. One, we have the FORCE Science Conference, uh, even though I'm a part of it, it is widely considered one of the best law enforcement con- conferences in the country. Um, we only hold it about every two years, uh, September 22nd to 24th at Austin Metro Texas. So September 22nd to, to 24th. Uh, save those dates in Austin Metro, FORCE Science Conference. Uh, if you register now, you'll get a, uh, $100 off. Uh, use our code EarlyBird26, EarlyBird26. Uh, go to our website. You'll see our conference, um, information there. It's forcescience.com. F-O-R-C-E science.com. And also, check out our training. The other exciting thing to announce is we just released the Force Encounters course. It is a, it is a online course. It will go through the human performance issues that are really important to understand if you evaluate, uh, force encounters, whether it's civilian or police.

21:56

Speaker 2
We're opening it up to, to civilians as well and we're, and, uh, and, and, uh, for your, for your guests, for your audience members, we're gonna give you a, a discount of 15% off for those who enroll through, through your program. So it's, the coupon is FS15, uh, make sure I get the coupon correct for everybody, but I put it in the, in the YouTube site, but it's FS15OFF. So, FS15OFF is the coupon. Uh, come to our website, forcescience.com. Go to our online course section and put in that coupon and save 15% off.

22:31

Speaker 1
Yeah, and the, and the FS stands for FORCE Science, I'm assuming, so-

22:34

Speaker 2
FORCE Science, yeah.

22:35

Speaker 1
... F-S as in FORCE Science, 15OFF and, uh, yeah, take advantage of that opportunity, guys. And, uh, and thanks for doing that on the, uh, on the live show, Vaughn. Um, moving along, we've got, uh, you know, just a, it's just really an update, but FoxNews.com, Captured Venezuelan Dictator Maduro Pleads Not Guilty Before The Judge, uh, Cuts Off His Outburst. This is a little humorous. Uh, Nicolas Maduro indicted for major drug trafficking and weapons charges, he arrived in federal court in New York on, uh, a- at noon on Monday, and that is for the arraignment. And minutes into the proceeding, the judge had to cut him off when he claimed that he'd been kidnapped. So Judge Alvin Hellerstein, uh, had asked him to confirm his full name and he goes, "I am Nicolas Maduro Moros," uh, and he goes on to say, "My name is President Nicolas Maduro Moros, President of Venezuela. I am here kidnapped and I'm here since January 3rd.

23:24

Speaker 1
Saturday, I was captured at my home in Caracas, Venezuela." And then the judge cuts him off and says the hearing was not the proper time for him to, uh, protest the arrest. And then the judge asked him to enter a plea. He said, "I am innocent. I am not guilty. I am a decent man. I am still president of my country." Now, the defense attorney, and Vaughn touched on this in the, in one of the, the earlier segments, you know, you come here and, yeah, you're, you, we, we extradite you. You know, you're given an attorney. He's got a defense lawyer, Barry Pollack, who is not missing, you know, any, he's not pulling any punches. He added that Maduro was pleading not guilty to all four counts and, and they're, they're preserving their right t- to challenge other things.

24:02

Speaker 1
Now, Maduro waived an official arraign of his four charges and they are narco-terrorism conspiracy, cocaine importation conspiracy, possession of machi- machine guns and destructive devices, and conspiracy to possess machine guns and destructive devices. So there's a lot of information I would really like to get my hands on involving those. And then his wife, Celia Flores, arrested in the raid as well. Um, she, um, also plead not guilty about 10 minutes after her husband did, and she said, "Not guilty, completely innocent." So those were, those were her exclamations. Uh, Vaughn, any, uh, any feedback on that?

24:34

Speaker 2
No, I think, I think what you're seeing, we talked about it a little, uh, bit earlier, is, uh, when we, when we pull you into the, uh, US criminal justice system, we're gonna, we're gonna umbrella you and protect you, or I should say blanket you with, with the same rights we would give a US citizen to the degree they apply. And so, you'll expect things like, uh, you know, uh, arraignments, and you'll expect opportunities to present a defense, and Miranda warnings, believe it or not. Um, uh, and so, you know, we'll look to see how this court case plays out. We're gonna have to have sufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did the crimes he was alleged to have committed.

25:08

Speaker 1
Uh, a- as we should. I mean, let's face it, it, you, you know, you want it to be fair. So, um, so moving along, and thank you, uh, good commentary. Uh, rumble.com, our favorite law enforcement video channel called ThisIsBetter, we have, uh, this is the hammer attack. We have, uh, where Albuquerque police, they fatally shoot this bad guy, Brian Womack, who was attacking a woman with a hammer.

25:27

Speaker 4
Look at the handle. (door slams) APD. (gunshots) Help. Get out, get out. Ow. 101 and Two shot died. Oh my God.

25:52

Speaker 1
Um, so the Albuquerque police released the video. It's an officer-involved shooting. It happened in late September. When officers get to this apartment, they discover a guy attacking a woman with a hammer, and they open fire to stop him, but that's not exactly how it started off. So the man police shot and killed, he was the person that actually called police to the Valderramitos Apartments, uh, Brian Womack, 42 years old. Now, he originally called, and, and there were three calls. He originally called saying that there was a woman trying to break into his apartment. So officers get there, and they say that Womack and a woman inside, um, did not, uh, didn't let 'em in, didn't open up the door and answer it. So officers, they leave, and then they come, they, they come back when Womack calls them a second time, uh, but Womack would still not open up the door. Now dispatch gets a third call. They go to the, back to the apartment third time, and the woman inside could be heard yelling.

26:45

Speaker 1
And the officers, they end up kicking the door in, and as soon as they breach the door, um, the woman's on the floor. Womack's, uh, they, they say, and it's really hard to tell from the video, but they say he's actually hitting her with a hammer. So one officer opened fires and he hits him. Now, uh, he sustained six gunshot wounds to his chest, arms, and back. Um, and medical aid was rendered, but he was pronounced dead at the scene. And Deputy Commander Robert Dreger has given the information on that. The door was barricaded with a refrigerator when the officers kicked it in. Uh, I was amazed knowing that, that they were able to get in as quickly as they did. Uh, police say the woman was a friend of Womack's and that she was scared that he was gonna kill her. And I'm thinking to myself, "Well, you think?

27:25

Speaker 1
Well, if he's got a hammer and beating you with it, I would be too." She sustained injuries to her head, hand, and back, and it said that he had a history of run-ins with the police, and they had 32 interactions since 2013, uh, with law enforcement. Um, Vaughn Kaleem?

27:40

Speaker 2
Yeah, so these are the cases we get. I'm not on this particular case right now, but, uh-

27:44

Speaker 1
Yet. Yet.

27:44

Speaker 2
... I can already imagine that the-

27:46

Speaker 1
(laughs)

27:47

Speaker 2
Well, I won't be now if I talk about it, so.

27:49

Speaker 1
(laughs) Aw, no.

27:50

Speaker 2
(laughs) But, uh, yeah, so we, we look at this, and there's gonna be all sorts of defense arguments already being made. I, I don't think they're legitimate arguments. Uh, I initially thought, you know, when, when... The first question is when could they legally go in, right? And you hear the exigent circumstances, the, the, uh, the need for, to make immediate entry for the safety of others, right, constitutes an, an, an exigent circumstance. They'll, everyone knows that. Cops know that. Public safety exceptions. They hear the screaming, right? They could have made entry sooner. Uh, they have to d- it's a discretion, though. They have to decide when they think they have enough. They kick the door. The question's gonna be, um, the defenses are gonna be, uh, they shot him in the back, right? They shot him after he dropped the hammer. If you slow motion the video, uh, why did it take so many shots? Why did they shoot after he'd already turned?

28:39

Speaker 2
Why did they shoot after he dropped the hammer? The answer to that is all gonna be easily explained to human performance considerations. It's about perception. It's about how long it takes to start shooting and how long it takes to stop shooting. So, uh, not to turn this into a case analysis, there's a, they, the officer did a great job once he analyzed that threat. He used a quality of force, as we say, to immediately and decisively stop the threat. Um, and then he stopped when something changed in the environment that told him he could stop and reevaluate. Um, and yeah, I already know who's gonna come and testify.

29:14

Speaker 2
I already know the defense arguments are gonna be that he should have stopped immediately, as soon as the guy started to turn away, um, and that once the guy dropped the hammer, uh, it's unreasonable to shoot, as though any human in that circumstance would have noticed he dropped the hammer or would have immediately known that him turning away from gunfire necessarily meant the threat had ceased versus he was just improving his tactical position. So, l- lots of things to anticipate for that case. Um, I suspect those officers will be sued in, in due course, um, and I hope their agency's backing them, uh, quickly. I don't know the answer to that.

29:52

Speaker 1
That is true, you know. And so, you know, i- i- it's funny. As you're talking, it's a reminder to me that there's always a human component. Not, not that that's always a bad thing. I think there's positives to that. Uh, but some of the restrictions that we have as humans, uh, we can't foretell the future, right? And so, like you said, when the bad guy is, you know, shots are being fired and he's moving away from the gunfire doesn't mean that any threat is d- is diminished whatsoever. Um, and, uh, and, and of course, I know you didn't talk into, um, the delays and the, and the reactionary time and, and, and your brain having to visually see something, process it, decide what to do, and then send the signal to your fig- your trigger finger to have it stop pulling the trigger, or to pull the trigger.

30:38

Speaker 1
You know, so, um, all these things, that human component, that factor, and so that, that should be an interesting trial, and hopefully they'll have a sharp judge and/or jury, uh, for that one. So, um, it's a good, good breakdown.

30:50

Speaker 2
Yeah, I hope it never makes it to a judge or jury. We, we've got qualified immunity for a reason, uh, and hopefully, and, and we're talking about a civil case, uh, this should never make it to a criminal indictment. (laughs) So it's just-

31:02

Speaker 1
Well, you bring up a good point. Qualified immunity, which means, of course, you have to qualify for it, so many people I, I run into wanna get a, w- get rid of qualified immunity. They're not talking about absolute immunity that judges and prosecutors get. You know, they just don't understand that we have to qualify for qualified immunity every time. It's not something we get blanketly, but we got 16 seconds, guys, until our third commercial break. Hopefully we won't be announcing a Nalgos winner in a second. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about GunLearn at GunLearn.com and hey, they got something new going on. We all know about the certified firearms specialists, right?

31:36

Speaker 1
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32:19

Speaker 1
You can go to GunLearn.com to get more information. Again, that's GunLearn.com and, uh, hey, if you haven't been there before, go to the day you don't know what you don't know. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at LeoRoundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock and I'm your host. We're joined by attorney Vaughn Klim from Force Science, former police officer as well, and, uh, wow, we w- we're, we're moving right along, so, so Vaughn, I'm gonna leave this decision up to you, this next one. It's a tough one. Are you, are you ready?

32:45

Speaker 4
(laughs) Yeah, yeah.

32:46

Speaker 1
So look, we can ... I think we have time for two more. And, and so what I was gonna suggest, if you want, now there is a, a video, uh, uh, this burglary suspect. He's, he's pretty much a wimp because he's just like, he can't handle being tasered. And, and, and then we've got the update article where we've got a trial starting for the Uvalde police officer, so I was gonna take them, unless you wanted to jump out of order, I was gonna take them in that order of the video and then the Uvalde cop that's, uh, that's, uh, going to trial. So, un- unless you wanted to cover one of the other ones.

33:14

Speaker 2
No, let's, let's do those and, uh, I wanna highlight a couple of things from what I call police practices perspective. It's like, what many of the audience may not know, um, the way cops look at some of these things and what the, what the, we reasonably expect the issues are gonna be, uh, because they're pretty obvious in those. Um, the legal-

33:31

Speaker 1
Okay.

33:31

Speaker 2
... issues and the police practice issue.

33:33

Speaker 1
Okay, we got, um, eight and a half minutes, so let me, uh, jump into this. Rumble.com, the name of our favorite law enforcement video channel. This is better. They come out with the, the best videos, law enforcement videos faster than anybody. Um, so we're in Port Orange, Florida, so this isn't, this is not gonna make the, the, the Florida guys look too studly, but a man and a woman from Port Orange, they were arrested in December, uh, and they're accused of stealing from a local apartment complex according to police.

34:00

Speaker 5
Police. Show me your hands. Show me your hands. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Don't move. Don't move. Don't move. Stop. Do not move. Turn around. Keep your hands up.

34:14

Speaker 4
What did I do?

34:14

Speaker 5
Keep your hands up.

34:15

Speaker 4
On your stomach?

34:17

Speaker 5
On your stomach. You're gonna get hit again.

34:18

Speaker 4
Okay, okay, all right, all right.

34:18

Speaker 5
You're gonna get hit again. Get on your stomach.

34:20

Speaker 4
Tell me to do.

34:21

Speaker 5
Get on your stomach.

34:22

Speaker 4
Okay, man. Goddamn. What am I gonna do?

34:24

Speaker 5
Hands out. Hands out. Hands out.

34:26

Speaker 4
Hands out of what?

34:27

Speaker 5
You're gonna get hit again.

34:29

Speaker 4
Okay.

34:29

Speaker 5
Put your hands behind your back.

34:31

Speaker 4
Oh my God.

34:31

Speaker 5
Hands behind your back.

34:32

Speaker 4
What the fuck, man?

34:32

Speaker 5
Hands behind your back.

34:33

Speaker 4
Why, what did I do, man?

34:34

Speaker 5
Cover me. Cover me here.

34:35

Speaker 4
What did I do? What did I do, sir? Okay. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Okay. Okay. Ow. Ow, man. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow.

34:54

Speaker 5
Stop moving.

34:55

Speaker 4
Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow Stand up. Stand up. Stand up. Okay, man. Stand up. Okay. I can't

35:07

Speaker 1
So maintenance supplies were reported stolen from the complex on December the 18th by the Port Orange Police Department and they identified Shawn Johnson, 39 years old, and his girlfriend, uh, Diana Ruth Persaud, 50 years old, so she's the cougar, right? She's like, what, uh, 11 years, uh, older, you know, than, than her boyfriend. They're both identified as the suspects, so we got body cam, uh, body cam, uh, footage, the police officers, they show up outside the couple's residence, so our, our cop, our first cop with the body cam and he's like right, right around the corner of, of the, uh, of the, uh, garage. And, uh, the garage door opens, bad guy's coming out, the cop turns the corner, there's the bad guy, he sees the cop and he's like booking it back inside the open garage trying to get back in the house.

35:49

Speaker 1
And so our cop goes taser mode on him and, uh, he gets a good, I mean, you know, in Florida we don't wear a lot of clothes, Vaughn, so you get a, your, your, your taser propensity for a, a good taser contact goes up. This guy, man, he gets hit and, and he's, and he's like screaming like a little girl. I mean, the guy is no stud at all. I was like, I gotta say as a man that, that, that, that grew up here and was born in Tampa, Florida, it was embarrassing. It made us, all the Florida dudes look bad, the guy, the way the guy's just like screaming. It's just a little taser, you know. On a fi- he's, he's doing the five second ride. So he exits the residence, comes out of the garage, sees the cop, starts running.

36:26

Speaker 1
The cop chases him and hits him with the taser like immediately and, uh, and then while this is going on, the female's not too loyal, she should be happy that she's got this 11 year younger dude, but no, she bails out of the back of the freaking house with her seven-year-old daughter and ends up hiding at a neighbor's house and they catch her. Totally abandons the, uh, you know, the young buck that she's been shacking up with. So anyhow, that's the way this goes down. Uh, Vaughn, explain this to us. How does this happen?

36:52

Speaker 2
Yeah, so I'm just gonna tell you what the questions are, right? So when he first comes in, he sees the guy coming out, and we're gonna, we're gonna analyze both the guy's response and the officer's initial actions. So, you know, "Don't move. Show me your hands," sort of thing is different than... Or if he says, "Show me your hands," versus, uh, "Don't move" or "You're under arrest," you know. The guy turns and goes back in at the sight of a, of a police officer. I think he has his gun, or at least taser drawn already at this point. Um, uh, I, look, the, the yelling and screaming, there's two things going on. It's performative. He's doing it so that all the neighbors and anyone who think the police is touching you or abusing you, he's setting up a civil case.

37:28

Speaker 2
This happens so frequently, "Ouch, ouch, you're hurting me, you're hurting me," is just a, a tactical SOP by bad guys which makes it tough, because you gotta then distinguish between the guy who's actually got a bum arm or, you know, something's hurting, versus the ones who are just being performative. In this case, two things. One, uh, I don't know if you've ever had a kid getting ready to get their first shot, and they're screaming, "Ow, ow, ow, ow, ow," and, and the s- the needle's already out.

37:53

Speaker 2
(laughs) Like, it's gone inside-

37:55

Speaker 1
Th- that was me.

37:56

Speaker 2
... him.

37:56

Speaker 1
That was me.

37:56

Speaker 2
Right?

37:56

Speaker 1
(laughs)

37:56

Speaker 2
Yeah, so there's a little bit of, of anticipatory anxiety going on here. He's imagining-

38:01

Speaker 1
Yeah.

38:01

Speaker 2
... this is gonna hurt really, really bad. He does look- he's under the impacts of neuromuscular incapacitation, so he did feel it. But then the rest of it's either, A, performative, or, B, it's just that sort of anticipatory, uh, anxiety that just... He doesn't know how to manifest it, right? It's coming out as yelling and screaming and whatever, you know? Uh, the police officer, this is what's important for the citizens to understand. Police officers see this all the time. Yelling and screaming, "Ouch, it hurts, it hurts," does not necessarily mean they're in any pain, any discomfort, or certainly no injury, um, although those things have to be investigated. But if you watch why the officers are not immediately jumping down or, or backing off and they're still trying to gain compliance, it's because those are very, very frequently just performative, tactical SOPs by bad guys, the yelling and screaming. Uh, we have, we have examples where we train attorneys.

38:51

Speaker 2
We show them videos, same thing, yelling and screaming, performative, "Ouch, ouch, ouch, you're hurting me," and then the, uh, suspect actually turns and kills the police officer. So, cops have to stay, keep their distance. They gotta gain control of the person, which is what they did in this case. Um, the other thing you gotta look at, uh, you know, just really quickly is these, these, uh, the, uh, confusing and inconsistent-

39:14

Speaker 1
Well, we got four minutes.

39:16

Speaker 2
... orders. Yeah. The inconsistent orders like, "Don't move, don't move. Get on your stomach. Get on your stomach," with two officers yelling. That can be confusing too. So the guy who is disoriented 'cause he's been caught, he's at a high level of emotional state, as he should be as the bad guy. Um, he's confused. He doesn't know what to do. And the cops, we train cops to recognize that one voice, clear, consistent commands. Don't tell them, "Show me your hands," and, "Don't move," simultaneously. Uh, none of that has to do with their authority or the legitimacy of what they did. It just has to do with sort of what's unfolding on camera for your, for your audience members.

39:49

Speaker 1
You're talking about performative. I was just thinking about preserving that, uh, that sound bite and just using that I- in videos that we don't have with good sound bites, you know, like some guy getting tasered and taking it like a man. I may throw that in there, make it look, make it, you know, more entertaining, entertainment value for the show. I'm just, I'm just saying, that whole-

40:04

Speaker 2
(laughs)

40:04

Speaker 1
... you gotta be thinking about the whole performative thing now. Hey, uh, if, if you... We got three minutes, so let's, uh, let's go to this next one here. Update article, trial begins for the former officer in the Uvalde response. LawOfficer.com. So the criminal, criminal, not civil, criminal trial of a former Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District police officer, it started this week. And it, it's rare that it happens, but it's about the 2022 Robb Elementary School shooting, uh, response. And, uh, there's been a lot of national con- uh, conversations about it. Prosecutors allege that this former officer, Adrian Gonzalez, notice I said former, failed to take appropriate action during the response and they charged him with child endangerment. Uh, defense attorneys argue that the officer operated within the constraints of information, authority, and chaos present at the time. But don't forget what had already happened.

40:48

Speaker 1
Broward County Deputy, uh, S- Scott Peterson, remember, the coward? Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, Portla- uh, uh, uh, Parkland. Don't forget about that. We're just done, we're just done with people making excuses for poor performance and being cowards. The trial is being closely watched because it raises questions about individual criminal liability during rapidly evolving and critical, uh, incidents. So, Vaughn Kleem, break it down.

41:11

Speaker 2
Yeah. So big questions coming up here. Here's our tr- here's our, what I call the tension points. We've got an entire culture of, of police and trainers and, and sort of progressive activists who have been telling cops for the last couple, you know, for the last five, six years, "Slow down, create space, buy time, do not rush in, do not rush in. If you do rush in, we're gonna hold you criminally accountable 'cause you created the danger. You need to slow things down, negotiate from a position of cover." Now, that's ridiculous when you're thinking about an active shooter.

41:39

Speaker 2
The problem is-

41:41

Speaker 1
Right.

41:41

Speaker 2
... legally, police understand they don't have a duty to an individual. They have a duty to society at large. And tactics are discretionary, which means not doing something is a discretionary tactic, doing something is a discretionary tactic, and the timing of it. So these are the challenges they're gonna have with this theory of liability, is one, we've got this constant pressure on cops. If you run in to, to engage violence with violence, we're gonna hold you criminally and li- and civilly liable, and we have officers going to prison for that. And now we have a guy who doesn't, who's trying to slow things down. I don't know what his motivation is. I haven't followed his particular case. But I tell you, I'm looking at it from a position of tension points. We have a culture saying, "Slow down, create space, and negotiate. Do not meet violence with violence." And we have another one that's saying, "Wait a minute.

42:28

Speaker 2
Tactically, we have got to go direct to threat and meet violence with overwhelming violence right now." And so, which we think in a, in an active shooter is the right idea. Look, I watched SWAT. I, I, I worked SWAT. I worked high-risk narcotics entries. I'm very familiar with the issues that go into going direct to threat in, in active shooter training. Uh, I am not at all arguing slow down, create space, and buy time. What I'm identifying is the tension point that's gonna happen in that courtroom where we have all these police administrators and these progressive reform organizations that have been screaming at cops to stop meeting violence with violence, slow down, um, and deescalate everything. When you see that play out in circumstances like this, then it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

43:13

Speaker 1
Yeah, I-

43:14

Speaker 2
Or it at least feel that way.

43:16

Speaker 1
Excellent, excellent point. Um, it, it'd be nice to have the backing so you could do your job a little bit better. But, uh, but, uh, you know, I've seen training all over the place on this too. But we have had some, uh, we've had less embarrassing moments as time's going on at the, as I expose some of the stuff. Um, you know, the cop using the sanitizer and, and all that. So, um, it'll be, it, it'll be interesting to follow this one and see what happens. But, um, uh, Vaughn, excellent having you on the show, and I'm glad. See, things happen for a reason. So we talked about some of these tough topics, and you just happen to be on the show. You're, you're the only guy, y- you and maybe Jamie Borden, that can handle this kind of stuff. So thank you so much for, uh, for being on the show. And also, uh, another shout-out to, uh, Critical Incident. Uh, you guys have got it going over there. And guys, I'm gonna put up the, uh, the website up on the, uh, you know, on the screen as well.

44:03

Speaker 1
Or, I'm, I'm sorry. I said Critical Incident. I meant For Science. So sorry, ForScience.com. That ticker's on there. Guys, please support our sponsors again. Golus.com, ComplyTechnologies.com, GunLearn.com, America.Care.Live.Safe.Gun.Recruiting, and 2Bellas. Thanks, guys. We'll see you back tomorrow, 12 noon Eastern. (rock music plays)