[00:13] Speaker 1: Welcome. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. My name is Chip The Block, and I'm your host. And we're a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a long- law enforcement perspective. And let me introduce the crew. Guys, if you don't mind waiting for the video portion of our show. Uh, he's back, our co-host, uh, Lieutenant Jeff Weninger, former commander at LAPD, and, and now he's migrated over to Ohio. He still has his roots. And thanks to Jeff, we have a new addition, uh, to the show. Uh, Ralph Ornellas. And, you know, Ralph was formerly LA Sheriff's Office, not the PD. Yeah, there you go. So, uh, uh, and, uh, and Ralph, uh, refresh my memory. You can open up your microphone there. Your, uh, your retirement rank, uh, when, when you left.

[00:56] Speaker 2: Uh, I retired with the LA County Sheriff's Department as a commander, and, uh, then I, about eight months later, became a chief of police for about three years with West Palm Beach Police Department.

[01:06] Speaker 1: Oh, that's right.

[01:06] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:06] Speaker 1: That's right. I forgot. That's right. In fact, I think even in the, uh, in the email I put, uh, a re- reference to his chief, which, which, which I should. So, uh, congratulations on that. And, uh, and hey, I ... The only apology I really need to make is saying that you were, uh, LAPD instead of, uh, LA Sheriff's Office. And, and I know, I know, you guys have a good relationship. It's kind of like us and Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office here. You know, we have, we have a great little healthy banter going on, uh, kind of like with the fire department, you know, over here. It's, it ... But it's all, it's all good, so, uh ...

[01:34] Speaker 2: I love the boys in blue.

[01:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. There you go.

[01:37] Speaker 2: Love the boys in blue.

[01:38] Speaker 1: There you go. And he also does some work. Uh, you do some, uh, uh, you, you don't charge for it, but you educate our, our kids about fentanyl and the, uh, and, uh, and the, you know, the dangers involving that, correct?

[01:52] Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, about three years ago, I was ... Some people reached out to me, and I put together a PowerPoint presentation to educate middle school students and high school students about the danger of fentanyl. I have a passion for it because I had a niece and nephew on the East Coast that almost died from it. So I said, "Why not use my experience in life that I've done, the captain of narcotics, gangs, and put together something to reach the youth of our communities?" And it's very re-

[02:18] Speaker 1: I love it.

[02:18] Speaker 2: It's very rewarding.

[02:20] Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. And, you know, e- everything we do, so much of it's about education. So I, I absolutely love it, so thanks for what you do. Hey, shout-out to our sponsors. You know, we have our title sponsor, Galls at galls.com. We also have compliantetechnologies.com, our satellite sponsor. They get us on satellite radio back on Cinco de Mayo, May the 5th last year. We also have gunlearn.com, mymedicare.live, safeguardrecruiting.com, our streaming sponsor. And thanks to them, we're streaming to about a million followers right now during the live show. And then, twobells.com. They built a new online store at leoroundtable.com. You can go to the store and get cool gear like the mug behind me. We got shirts, we got hats, we got all kinds of stuff. I even got, uh, uh, uh ... Well, I bought a bunch of shirts, uh, for Brett for our SHOT Shows. He never wears them, though, so I, I can't really show you those.

[03:02] Speaker 1: So (laughs) , but we don't, we don't make a, a dime off of anything on the online store. We're just trying to get our gear out there, so the prices are inexpensive. So, check that out. And, uh, uh, thank you to Brian Burns for the Tampa Free Press at tampafp.com. Thanks for carrying our content, Brian. Also, Ray Dietrich with formerlawman.com, and our very own Travis Yeates with lawoficer.com. Thanks to all those entities for helping make this show happen. Now, guys, we've got, um, some pretty, uh, deep stories that we're gonna be talking about. And I normally read through all the topics, and I'll, uh, I'll, I'll catch you guys up in a second. But what I would like to do is talk about our first topic right now. And, uh, we've got two back-to-back topics that are, are, uh, are pretty sensational. Let me go in and talk about this first one real quick here. And, uh, this one, the, the source is yahoo.com and tampafp.com for the Tampa Free Press. And it's a ...

[03:50] Speaker 1: And it starts off with an editorial, um, and it looks like it's the Chicago Tribune is where it originated. And it says, "Illinois Can't Fix What It Won't Track." And we have a companion story that will pretty much spill the beans, 'cause there are some beans to be spilled here. So, an important way, according to our article, to tell whether a corrections system is actually working is to track how many people end up back behind bars after serving time in the prison system, right? So, for years now, Illinois has left the public in the dark about how many people are returning to prison after being released. The phenomenon is called recidivism, and we all are familiar with recidivism, and it refers to convicts who re-offend, cycling in and out of the corrections system. And, you know, are we just putting the same bad guys, you know, back in jail, in and out, in and out, in and out? Is it a revolving door, or are we doing something to, uh, to rehabilitate, right?

[04:38] Speaker 1: So, the state has not shown since 2022 how well or poorly it's doing on this measure, according to WGN Investigates. And they disclosed this problem. Now, back in 2022, 37% of the inmates re-offended within just three years of their release date, according to the Illinois Department of Corrections. And since then, the state has no idea, or maybe they don't want to know. A- and why? So the, uh, the spokesperson, uh, said that ... Naomi Pezello is her name. She told WGN that there is a programming issue with the file that generates those calculations and reports, said that the IT department is working on the issue, if you guys can believe that.

[05:22] Speaker 1: Now, there's a lot of other stats that they should be keeping, and not to get too bogged down in the article, they do talk about, um, you know, the data will help improve the public safety, because, you know, if you have less criminals on the streets and stuff, and if you're actually fixing the problem with rehabilitation, then it, it helps with public safety, um, making sure crime prevention programs are being effective. Um, the ultimate goal, of course, is to rehabilitate the people in prison. Are you offering GED programs, educational programs, to help rehabilitate these people so they can actually get jobs when they get out, and that kind of stuff. Now, jumping over to the companion article, we have ... Or, and, and this one, of course, is tampafp.com, the, the Tampa Free Press. Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson vows to eradicate law enforcement. "It's a sickness," he says. So listen to this. And this is where the beans are being spilled.

[06:08] Speaker 1: Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson, 'cause you know, they're ... Him and the governor are tight. They declared his intention to eradicate what he called the sickness in law enforcement, jails, and incarceration during a fiery press conference on Tuesday, and it was first reported by CWB Chicago. The mayor's comments came in response to a question about his administration's public safety plan, and he claimed that President Donald Trump was attempting to take credit for a recent downtick in the, in the Chicago murder rate. According to the outlet, Mayor Johnson cited specific years of high murder counts, including Chicago's record-setting 970 killings back in 1974.... he listed, um, over 800 in 1995, um, almost 800 in 2016, 805 in 2021. Now he argued that these figures demonstrated that traditional policing and incarceration had failed to create safe communities. So, this is his argument in throwing out these high numbers, right?

[06:57] Speaker 1: And here's a quote saying, uh, "This has been a problem in this city for a very long time and it's a sickness that we're gonna eradicate, and we're gonna eradicate it." And the mayor also stated that he was sick and tired of people believing that the only thing that Black and brown and poor people could get in the city are badges, if you can believe he went there. However, uh, CWB Chicago's review of the official records show that what the mayor said wasn't exactly true and, uh, it did not reflect the city's longer term trend of declining homicides. So, the report stated that between 2004 and 2013, Chicago's annual murder count, it never exceeded 513 and it frequently remained below, uh, the number of 450. The murder counts for 2016 and 2021, they were part of a broader national crime surge that happened during the pandemic.

[07:41] Speaker 1: Uh, critics noted that the city's long-term decline in crime, it occurred, uh, during the very period that the mayor described as being plagued by the sickness of arrest and incarceration. Um, so he wasn't being completely truthful in those. So anyhow, so, so now we've got this dilemma. We've got, if you know where I'm going with this thing, we've got this situation where we've got, uh, a, uh, a prison system where we're not getting stats for anymore, so we don't know whether we're really fixing the problem, whether it's a revolving door, or if we're even really trying to fix it, right? Because we don't know recidivism versus rehabilitation. And now we got the mayor, who's good friends with the governor, kind of letting it leak out that they're pretty much throwing their hands up and saying the system really doesn't work anyhow. So, uh, commentary on this.

[08:22] Speaker 1: I, you know, I know that Chicago, we got a governor and a mayor that think that they've got the pulse and the, and, you know, the, the finger on the pulse of what's going on and they think that they don't want help from anybody, right? Especially if it's, if he's got the last name of Trump. Uh, but when I read things like this and there are tells in the stories, it makes me question not necessarily whether we have the right people on the job, because I think that we all would agree that we, we certainly can prove that we have the wrong people on the job. Um, it's just, you know, what the potential answers are. So, uh, commentary on this, guys. We got about, uh, a minute and, uh, 15 seconds before we take our first commercial break, and Ralph is gonna start us off. The floor is yours, Ralph.

[08:59] Speaker 2: You know, you know, gentlemen in the audience, I, I, uh, take the politics out of the, the names out of it and just look at what's right and wrong. You know, recidivism. I mean, being in LA County in the state of California, I ran the largest jail in, uh, Los Angeles County. I kept on seeing, as a captain in Men's Center Jail, seeing people come in all the time. I could only imagine in Chicago when you have, uh, port statistics tracking, community-based organizations maybe are getting money from the state of Illinois and from the mayor's office about community-based organizations maybe supposedly helping out people that get out of prison. You know, what is the statistics of that helping? Is it truly helping? And also, there's this. Let's face it. To stop crime, you got to have good investigations, prosecution with the district attorney's office to make those cases to be able to put people in prison, in jail, that deserve it. Now listen.

[09:55] Speaker 2: You're looking at a guy that I ran educational based incarceration programs in Men's Central Jail, and I believe in the triangle. I believe in the tri-

[10:04] Speaker 1: And hold that thought, Ralph. We're gonna take a commercial break. We'll be right back. My family only cares about one thing: that I come home safe.

[10:15] Speaker 3: At Gulls, every order begins with a promise. Made with purpose. Stitched for support. Back with pride. Answered by dedicated hands. Delivering the standard you have sworn to uphold. We serve more than the mission. We serve the person. Each piece is engineered to help get our first responders through the shift and back home safe.

[11:08] Speaker 1: Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. We are joined by, uh, we've got former Chief Ralph Ornelas and we've got, uh, former commander with LAPD, Jeff Winninger. So, thanks for being on the show, guys. Jeff's also got his book that just came out on Tuesday called On Thin Ice. More information at onthinicebook.com as well, and actually, uh, Jeff announced a winner, uh, yesterday. And, uh, and this is for, this is the, the bling, the grab bag, the, uh, the box that he sends out. I mean, it's, it's he couldn't get everything in, like, a, a bag, so then it, then he went with a box and I think they can barely... They're getting ready to go with a crate next, I think, but right now it's a, it's a free box with, with stuff in it. It's kind of cool.

[11:48] Speaker 1: But we left, uh, when we went to commercial break, we were talking about, um, Illinois i- in the city of Chicago and we were talking about they're just not collecting stats anymore, recidivism in the, in the prison system there, and now we've got the Chicago mayor saying that, "You know what? The system doesn't really even work." And so it kind of, it, it leaves me wondering what their intentions are to fix the problem, if they're even gonna try to fix it, because we certainly have a, a proactive president that's offering to come in there and help take care of the problem. And, and I think Trump's issue is that we got people that are taking trips and vacationing and, you know, to Chicago and if it's, you, you know, if, if they can't fix the problem, he certainly can fix the problem and protect the citizens and our, and our, and our, our taxpayers. You know? And, uh, but they don't, they don't want the help there.

[12:32] Speaker 1: So, I know, uh, Chief Ralph, I know that you were talking about you've got some experience, um, over from the California side of all the stuff going on and that you actually had the, uh, prison at the sheriff's office over there. So, the floor is yours.

[12:43] Speaker 2: No, and I, I would start... I was saying that you'll... They, them, the triangle, the suppression, prevention, intervention programs do work, but you have to have the right people believing in the system about suppression, have coordination of patrol detectives addressing the gang shootings, the murders, the assault with deadly weapons. Whatever those cases are, you have to work them to a level, right to w- to prosecution level. Prevention programs do work. But I gotta tell you, my heart breaks for the police officers in Chicago because they must want to do the job.

[13:14] Speaker 1: Oh.

[13:15] Speaker 2: The leader- the leadership probably wants to do the job, and they're being held back. So you know something, the sad part about it is, who is the victims and gets hurt all the time is the community. The, the Black and Latino community gets hurt because of the politics s- going in the middle, separating, not working, and all the components working as a team. And you know something? I- it just, it just tears my heart out because I know Jeff and I, when we worked in our careers in Los Angeles, when I know we were successful, when I worked gangs lieutenant for nine years and we did an investigation, let me tell you something. The community will never say it to you, but when you're on the end of a search warrant near a wall and you hear it from a window, "Thank you very much. Thank you for doing what you're doing." Because they can't come out and say it to my face. They say it through a window when I'm covering the one, two side of a home.

[14:07] Speaker 2: And you know something, my heart breaks for those community members that live in it. That's why I love the service that you did, Chip, Jeff did, and I did. And you know something, those officers around the country need more support from all levels of government to really impact crime today.

[14:27] Speaker 1: Spot on. I love it. So, uh, any more comment? Jeff, did you have anything you wanted to throw in there?

[14:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, just-

[14:32] Speaker 1: I know, I know, he got, he kinda sucked, he sucked all the knowledge out of the room with that one, didn't he?

[14:37] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[14:37] Speaker 1: I mean...

[14:38] Speaker 4: You know, the, uh... Just real quickly. I, I get curious. When I read that article about the recidivism and things like that, I'm thinking, "Well, how could they not have this data?" What, what was the, the, the stop or the speed bump that created the circumstance where they're not capturing this? And, and I, I looked this up. In 2023, they had some legislation where they had reform for the, for prison programs, and they have, uh, uh, youth parole laws that changed, where, uh, youth offenders are getting out serving less time, as well as they, uh, they expanded the, um, the, uh, sentencing criteria for, um, adult people that have been incarcerated, where they can go back in time and give them credit for good behavior, so they're serving shorter periods of time. I suspect that the results are the recidivism rates have gone up and that's why we're seeing what we're seeing.

[15:32] Speaker 1: Imagine that. Imagine.

[15:35] Speaker 2: A, if, if I may, uh, chime in, I mean, looking at Prop 109, AB 109, that went in place October 1st, 2011, that depopulated the state prisons of California. Prop 57 restructured, as Jeff was saying, in California, letting out more pr- uh, prisoners on parole. And also, Jeff was spot on. Here in California, where they're looking at back at Ralph Ornell was arrested at the age of 21. "Okay, how is he now?" And they let him out.

[16:03] Speaker 2: I mean, look what they-

[16:03] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[16:03] Speaker 2: ... just tried, tried to do the Menendez brothers. I mean, how do you-

[16:07] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

[16:08] Speaker 2: How could you even think about letting two men, not boys, not kids, men out of prison who blew their mother's head off? As we say in Brooklyn, "Forget about it." Come on, really?

[16:23] Speaker 1: Yeah. There you go. And I, I do want to point out, we had Betty Dunn. We were talking about your fentanyl education program that you volunteer to do. And, uh, Betty Dunn, of course, one of our, uh, most dedicated listeners, uh, is, uh, is thanking, uh, you because she lost her granddaughter to, uh, to fentanyl. So, um, um, wow. So you're doing the... you're doing God's work, Ralph. Um, well, guys, um, I want to get to the next, uh, main topic, if that's okay. So, uh, let's do that. And it, it, it, it's a doozy. So, uh, again, two more articles, and I have two minutes to go through this, uh, so we may not get to the commentary until after the second commercial break. But, rvmnews.com, Vance, and we're talking about JD Vance, our vice president, amplifies poll showing liberals are far more likely to justify violence. So guys, so this is, uh, in black and white.

[17:07] Speaker 1: Vice President JD Vance presented polling data on Monday indicating that political violence is viewed as more acceptable among self-described very liberal Americans compared to their conservative counterparts. He goes on to say that... Well, he was hosting the, uh, the Charlie Kirk Show for once, and, uh, on Real America's Voice, and actually did it from the White House, which was pretty cool in and of itself. Um, he used his closing remarks to outline what he called the difficult truths that the country must face in order to move, uh, toward unity. He cited a, uh, YouGov survey that was released last week that examined public attitudes towards political violence and reactions to death of political opponents. And according to the poll, now listen to the numbers, 24% of self-identified very liberal respondents said that it was actually acceptable for someone to be happy about the death of a public figure they opposed. So that's, that's one quarter. That's like 24%.

[17:55] Speaker 1: That's like, that's like one quarter, right? Um, by comparison, only 3% of very conservative respondents gave the same answer, along with 10% of liberal respondents and 4% of conservative respondents. Goes on to say that when asked whether political violence could be justified as a means to achieve political goals, the numbers also showed a sharp divide. Liberals that were 18 to 41 in age, 26% agreed. That's over a quarter that violence can be justified in some cases. And, um, and while, this... Th- the time is just going fast, right?

[18:25] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[18:25] Speaker 1: And, uh, and then we get to where...... and I'm sorry, then we get to where 7% of conservatives and 12% of moderates in the very same age group ex- ex- express the same view. So, guys, uh, it, it's about to get very real and we're gonna be covering all this in just one second. Commercial break. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about Compliant Technologies at complianttechnologies.com. And they're committed to providing non-lethal solutions to help officers gain the upper hand safely and rapidly in a humane, low-onrix manner, utilizing what they call their CD3, which stands for conductive distraction and de-escalation device technology. Now, we all know their flagship product is called The Glove. It's helped officers not only tens of thousands of times, but they've actually had over 250,000 deployments. No injuries, no deaths. It's an amazing stat. They've actually achieved non-lethal status in an arena that predominantly can only offer less lethal results.

[19:12] Speaker 1: When it comes to weapons retention, transitioning to a sidearm or conducted energy weapon, The Glove at complianttechnologies.com, they have virtually eliminated weapons confusion. So stay ahead of the game with Compliant Technologies and the revolutionary CD3 that hundreds of agencies have already turned to nationwide. And friends, take it from me, when it comes to safety, this is one of the most commonsense, hands-on solutions that's ever come along. So go to complianttechnologies.com today and tell them that Chip sent you. Again, that is complianttechnologies.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host. We're joined by former Chief Ralph Ornelas and we've also got former Commander LAPD, uh, Jeff Weninger. Uh, Ralph worked for the, uh, LA Sheriff's Office before he went and became a police chief, and also, uh, Jeff, of course, with the LAPD.

[19:56] Speaker 1: We've been talking about a, uh, a, a new topic and i- it's, it, I'll tell you, it's deep. Vance amplifies and, or, or of course, our Vice President, J.D. Vance, amplifies poll showing that liberals are far more likely to justify violence. This is not just something that he's saying. It's, it's, it, it's in black and white and he's explaining the numbers to us. I loved how, talking about among liberals ages 18 to 44, a pretty good-sized group, 20 per- 26%, so over one-quarter of them agree that violence can be justified in some cases. 7% of conservatives and 12% of moderates in the same age group express the same view. And then in a country of 330 million people, that's a lot of people, guys, um, according to our article, you can of course find one person of a given political persuasion justifying this or that or almost anything. But the data's clear, people on the left are much likelier to defend and celebrate political violence.

[20:48] Speaker 1: Vance said that, uh, this is what he said while discussing the survey r- results. He also said, "This is not a both sides problem." And we've heard that argument. Remember on The Five with, uh, Greg Gutfield was talking about that as well. If both sides have a problem, one side is much bigger and malignant problem, and that is, uh, that is the, uh, the truth that has to be told. The problem has terrible consequences, and we're starting to see that. Vance referenced, uh, several incidents that underscore the, the stakes, including the attempted hu- assassinations of, uh, President Donald Trump and House Majority Leader Steve Escalise. Also talked about, of course, Turning Point USA founder Charlie Kirk. Sad story. Um, he said that these events highlight how rhetoric and behavior can build an environment where violence becomes more likely. Now, let's jump to our next one. Uh, our next article, it is a radical leftist posts kill list in de- in, in demented frenzy, targets, uh, respond.

[21:36] Speaker 1: Guys, this is just... There are, new reports indicate that in the wake of the assassination of Turning Point USA founder Charlie Kirk, targeted hit lists are now appearing against conservatives, and they have appeared across social media platforms. The Center Square reported on Friday that in the wake of the assassination of Turning Point USA founder Charlie Kirk that thousands of social media posts appear to list politically conservative targets for assassination by the political left. And, uh, it's just case in point, the names of the most frequently mentioned people include President Donald Trump, of course. We got podcast host Joe Rogan, author JK Rowling. We got Ben Shapiro, Matt Walsh, Libs and TikTok founder, uh, Chaya, uh, Raichik. We've got Elon Musk and Andy Ngo. I don't know if I pronounced that last name correctly, but and, and the list goes on and on. And these are by, uh, by liberals.

[22:26] Speaker 1: So I, I mean, you know, they have two articles and then they have, I mean, actions speak louder than words, right? This, uh, this list is what I consider i- i- inaction that only reinforces what I just read in this article. So, um, commentary on this, guys. We got a little under eight minutes before we take our, our next commercial break. Jeff Weninger.

[22:44] Speaker 4: Yeah. You know, I, I'd like to comment on the second article 'cause I, I think that's, it's really important. And, and it's not necessarily about who's making the list or who's actually on the list. This is about law enforcement being able to find a way forward where we're preventing these things from occurring. It's, it's w- we've, we've lost the battle if we're finding all of this stuff on social media after something tragic has occurred. It's all about finding a way where we're monitoring this stuff and we're identifying people that we need to reach out and touch. And why is that important? It's important because people, when they hide behind the screen of their computers and their keyboard, keyboard warriors, they, they still have this sense of anonymity. And if we're not reaching out and allowing them to know that we know what they're saying and what they're, they're doing, we need to be looking at what is the best path forward to address what's going on.

[23:42] Speaker 4: And if there's something criminal and we can, we can find something that, that meets the elements of a crime, then we pursue that. So w- we, we can't just have all this stuff that's going on, and look how quickly we found this stuff on social media after this tragic shooting. So wh- why is it hard to find and be doing it in a proactive way where we would have reached out and touched this guy? And, and he... Whoa. Okay. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's ludicrous. And if you look at the whole thing, I mean, we even watched video of this guy with a long rifle shoved down the leg of his pants as he's walking through this neighborhood. How in God's name did somebody not see him and think, "That looks odd," where it's addressed?

[24:25] Speaker 4: So it's, you know, whether you're, you're catching it on various platforms of social media, chat groups, or what have you, or citizens are seeing things, they need to know that they have a responsibility for the safety of our communities and then everybody involved here, that they do something and say something. And, you know, it's, uh...... it, it's important. You see something, say something. So then those people that are trained and have the ability to prevent things from occurring can get, get rolling and make that happen.

[24:57] Speaker 2: True.

[24:58] Speaker 1: Excellent. If only somebody would write a book, uh, Ralph, about that, huh?

[25:01] Speaker 2: Yeah. I, I-

[25:01] Speaker 1: And of course, On Th- On Thin Ice is what I'm going with that. (laughs)

[25:05] Speaker 2: A- Absolutely. On Thin Ice. And, you know, he meant... Uh, Jeff mentioned the word proactive. And I believe what's taken place in the, in the public, in the citizenry, nobody wants to get involved anymore. And especially when, when... After the incident happened in New York City on the train, you know, how could you not get involved in things that you know is wrong? And I, and I, I agree with Jeff in a sense that the... Somebody has to have consequences, some entity and consequence of young people getting online, thinking it's okay, th- and they know something... Or like Jeff said, you see something, you say something. Well, if you see something online that you know is definitely incorrect or against the law, you have an obligation to report it. And I, I really believe our communities, our youth are... got desensitized, and I really believe it's b- are these computer games.

[25:54] Speaker 2: I know that's another whole topic, but it does involve the mindset of young people truly not understanding that's only a show, it's not reality. And, you know, it just... It really makes me sad that something gets to that level. And, uh, you know, I think it's tragic that Charlie Kirk or, you know, the assassination attempts on Trump, or look at that young girl in the... on the rail of-

[26:21] Speaker 1: Oh.

[26:21] Speaker 2: ... um, of, uh, North Carolina. I mean, did you... did you notice nobody jumped in? I can guarantee you, one... the three of us, if we were on that tray- rail, we would have jumped in. How could you not? I have a daughter who lives in New York. I worry about her every day. So I-

[26:40] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[26:40] Speaker 2: ... I agree with everything Jeff said.

[26:42] Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a, um... You know, guys, uh, be vigilant, heads on a swivel, and, uh, and there's gotta be, um... there's gotta be consequences for things that you do. Uh, you know, we have... Look, there has been obviously a shift, but the, the... you know, media technology has, has, has helped create some of this dishonesty, in my opinion. I mean, you know, back in the day before we had the advent of the internet and stuff, I mean, you know, the, the ability to weigh in. Now, back... Remember, you know, back in the '80s and the '90s when people were gonna get up and say something, you knew who they were and, and, uh, and, and when someone was just whacked out, you know, you took the microphone away from them and you never listened to anything else they said again. It's like the, the boy that cried wolf, right? Um, you know, after that, no one is gonna let you grab the microphone and talk anymore. With the anonymity and the internet and the people that, that, um...

[27:29] Speaker 1: and the news organizations that post all... I mean, we're seeing declassified information now about, um, actors that have just been intentionally lying and i- and intentionally spreading bad information, and they're still doing it. And, and, and no one's holding their feet to the fire and eliminating that. They still have the microphone and people are still listening. And, and, and so i- it's kinda hard, hard to, to change that in today's society. I don't know how you get away from that. Um, but it, but it, it's just getting, it's just getting... it's just making it very difficult in today's world. (laughs) So... And I love technology, but...

[28:01] Speaker 2: I, I love technology too. But, you know, these things here, you know, smartphones are making some of us dumb. And I, I-

[28:08] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[28:08] Speaker 2: ... I, I worry about our youth. You know, uh, when I give... I, I, I just don't understand how could you come up with a list, a hit list, and I mean-

[28:17] Speaker 1: Well, I think-

[28:17] Speaker 2: ... how do you-

[28:17] Speaker 1: I think Jeff just talked his way on that list. I wouldn't be surprised next week I, I'm gonna look for Jeff's name on that list now after what he just said, so...

[28:24] Speaker 4: You know, I, I think a lot of this has to do with... You know, my son, he's 14 years old and, you know, when he was in intermediate school, now he's in middle school, you know, he's... These kids are gonna be kids. Boys are gonna be boys. And sometimes you have to allow them to settle their own differences. And, and-

[28:41] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[28:41] Speaker 4: ... unfortunately, in society right now, parents want to get involved. They want to se- settle all the problems for their kids and, you know-

[28:50] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[28:51] Speaker 4: ... uh, sometimes, I don't know, I'm sure both of you, and I know I certainly did, at recess growing up, there's a couple times I threw some punches, there's a few times I pushed people down. I mean, it's... it is what it is, and that is where you kind of police your own and you're moderating this type of behavior. And it's, and it's... That's where it starts-

[29:11] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[29:11] Speaker 4: ... and w- people... It's, it's not... it's, it's... We've lost it whe- when it comes to that.

[29:17] Speaker 2: Y- Could I say-

[29:17] Speaker 1: We got-

[29:17] Speaker 2: ... something else?

[29:18] Speaker 1: Well, yeah. We gotta, we gotta roll on and I've got just one minute here, so make it... Go real quick, uh, Ralph, and then I'll, I'll whet the appetite for the next story.

[29:26] Speaker 2: 15 years ago, a female psychologist, Psychology Magazine wrote an article about elementary schools and middle schools. Not enough men being teachers anymore, allowing the pushing, as Jeff said. Young men need to have that understanding, negotiation, pushing and, and getting to know where they are in that space. It doesn't happen anymore. And I think we do an injustice to our young men.

[29:51] Speaker 1: All right. Well, there you go. There it goes. I'm gonna get so many letters from angry female teachers now. Thank you so much, R- uh, Chief Ralph. I appreciate that. (laughs)

[30:00] Speaker 2: I brought more attention to your show.

[30:02] Speaker 1: (laughs) I, I... And that's why we love you. All right, guys. Uh, we've got, um, two stories. Um, uh, they're, they're not great. We got cops getting shot, but o- one's got a video component to it. Stick with us. We're gonna be telling these stories. There's something to be learned from this stuff. We'll... We have our third commercial break. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about GunLearn at GunLearn.com. And hey, they got something new going on. We all know about the certified firearm specialist, right? They had this program where you become a certified firearm specialist, but now they've hooked up...... with Smarter Degree, Smarter Degree's university partners. And now that certification that actually Captain Brent Bartlett already has, even if you got it up to five years ago, you can convert that into college credit. So yeah, you get rewarded for that education.

[30:43] Speaker 1: And gunlearn.com of course is the first and only company that offer a step-by-step program that takes you from your present knowledge level to become a safe, accurate, and competent certified firearms specialist. Now, they've been doing this since 1996. They've taught everything that LEOs need to know about firearms and ammunition to all facets of law enforcement. You can start the day with online training or you can register to attend a live seminar. You can actually get free training for yourself and all the personnel at your agency by hosting a seminar for absolutely no cost. The founder, Dan and Kelly put this together. You can go to gunlearn.com to get more information. Again, that's gunlearn.com and, uh, hey, if you haven't been there before, go to the day you don't know what you don't know. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock and I'm your host.

[31:22] Speaker 1: We're joined by Chief Ralph Ornelas and we've got Commander Jeff Weninger, and I've got a story that we're going to be talking about if I can get Chief Ralph, if you can mute your microphone for me, I appreciate it. At lawofficer.com, we got five officers shot, three fatal in Pennsylvania. So we got, uh, North, uh, Corotis Town- Township in Pennsylvania, and what started as a follow-up in a domestic case along a stretch of rolling farmland in York City or York County, excuse me. Um, there was... It ended up being one of the deadliest day for Pennsylvania law enforcement in years. We had three officers killed and two more critically, uh, wounded. The suspected gunmen dead, which is about the only good news that came out of this. We got state police said the officers were at a property on Wednesday afternoon connected to a domestic-related investigation. It's... That started on the, the day before.

[32:05] Speaker 1: So when they move in to serve a search warrant and arrest warrants, all of a sudden gunfire erupts. We have two officers being rushed to WellSpan York Hospital, and officials said they remain in critical but stable condition overnight. The suspect was shot and killed at the scene. Um, law enforcement sources, sources had said that the operation was tied to warrants stemming from the, uh, uh, the domestic violence incident that happened before. Uh, the investigators are examining whether prior threats or weapons reports were documented before they attempted service, you know, the search warrants and, or, and the arrest warrant. And they have not disclosed the caliber of the weapon that was used or how quickly the gunfire unfolded, but preliminary accounts indicate that the officers came under heavy fire almost immediately and the investigation is continuing and it's being conducted by the Pennsylvania State Police, and they also have some federal agencies that are helping out as well.

[32:53] Speaker 1: And, uh, again, we got five officers shot, three fatal in Pennsylvania. Uh, a sad time. I... Look, uh, the story came out, it, it's, it's a fresh story, um, there, there could be some, a video component that we don't have yet.

[33:05] Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

[33:05] Speaker 1: A- and sometimes, I don't necessarily always show the video component. Sometimes it's just not appropriate to, so I don't know if, if this is ever, if we're gonna have a video component that we show or not on the reference to this, but I wanted to get this out there g- because we have two stories that are, that are kind of similar with these cops getting shot and we're... And, and it seems like these things happen in groups, right? So we... Anything that we can do to in- to keep an officer from getting shot or injured, uh, guys, keep your heads on swivel and just 'cause you're... You know, we got ambushes going on, we got, we got one which was an ambush, but the guy kind of sh- I say ambushed, the guy rolled up on cops and he just surprised them and started shooting them and the next one, and they're at a dead end eating pizza together, you know?

[33:44] Speaker 1: So you really, you really never know whether the bad actor is your, quote, complainant on a call or you, you really never know, u- unless face it, when bad guys want you bad enough, it's really hard to prevent that from happening. You just gotta, you gotta be on your A game all the time. So, um, if there's no commentary on that, we'll jump to our next one then. We've got on this story, with the video component, at rumble.com, our favorite law enforcement video channel called ThisIsBetter, we have dash and body cam videos that show, shows the ambush attack on a Lorain police officer, and it killed Officer Philip Wagner ended up getting killed in this. Um, guys, this is just a mess.

[34:24] Speaker 6: 170 12th Street. There's several vehicles right there stopped. (engine revving) He's got a rifle. He's got a rifle. Get down. (guns firing) Ah! (gasps) Ah! 30 minutes in. (guns firing) Ah! Ah! Also down, also down. (gasps) (breathing heavily) Have we got eyes on him? Okay, now hold on. We've got a rifle, we've got a rifle. Get down. Ah! (guns firing)

[35:52] Speaker 1: Um, in, in Ohio. I know, Jeff, that's where you're living at a- and maybe you can give us a backdrop on Lorain County. But, uh, this guy shot three Lorain police officers, killing Officer Phillip Wagner. He had 100 pounds of explosive material inside his car and he had se- more than 7,500 rounds of ammo. I mean, those numbers are staggering. Michael Parker is his name, heavily armed and prepared for a violent and prolonged encounter. Look at all the ammo, uh, said Elyria Police Captain Bill Lance at a news conference on Thursday. Parker, our bad guy, fired 193 times. Captain Lance said that more than 200 loaded magazines were found. Several containers of loose ammunition were lo- also located in his car. Officers found a total of ten firearms, including seven rifles, and five of those had scopes.

[36:38] Speaker 1: So on July the 23rd, 12:46 PM, Officer Peter Gale pulls into the dead end of, uh, Riverbend Drive, and at 12:52, so just about six minutes later, Officer Wagner pulls in next to him and, uh, they are eating pizza and, uh...... Parker, our bad guy, arrives and immediately fires multiple shots and he hits Officer Wagner. And, um, it, uh, it w- they say it was originally believed that Parker, the bad guy, was there before the officers got there and ambushed them, but he pretty much did it at, uh, y- after he rolled up. Now, Officer Gale managed to drive away to get help. So, that's the first flag in this story. So, it says Officer Gale managed to drive away to get help. Um, this guy ended up being shot, I don't know at, at what time. I don't think he ever left his car and he got shot in the hand. Um, so he drives away. They, uh, i- it, they make it s- and look, may... I don't want to be overly critical, but they make it sound like he beat all odds and was able to drive away to get help.

[37:34] Speaker 1: Well, that's not normally what cops do, but that's, I'm just mentioning what they said in the story. So, then from 1:04, when this guy leaves and leaves... He leaves the Officer Wagner that ended up being shot and ends up dying. He leaves him there. He goes to get help. From 1:04 to 1:07 PM, Parker, our bad guy, prepares for the arrival of more officers and he moves several riv- rifles on, uh, on both sides of the, of his vehicle. So, then about, um, almost four minutes later, Officer Gale, and, who's the one that left, and Officer Brent Payne, he's 47 years old, they go back to the scene and, uh, they kind of roll in together. Within seconds, the front windshield of Officer Payne's cruiser gets struck several times. At least 25 to 30 rounds w- end up being fired. Now, Officer Payne exits his cruiser.

[38:21] Speaker 1: When you first watch this, you're just watching a dash cam and you're hearing the officer grunt and groan and stuff and you're thinking, "Crap, he's in the freaking cockpit of the car getting, getting, you know, hit with bullets." And, and that's not what happened. He, he was mic'd up and he had exited his car and he was, he was, um, running... You know, he's backing away from his car with his pistol out and, um, and, and, and he falls down when the guy opens up on him. So, he, he, he actually left cover. He left the protection of the, of the, uh, of the, uh, engine block and all that and he's creating distance, which, which gives the, puts him on the side of the bad guy. And he goes down. Now, I don't, uh, I don't have any indication that he got, uh, that he got shot at that time. Uh, he gets back up and he's rolling around on the ground and he seeks cover, uh, behind, um, the, uh, the, uh, the other guy's, uh, the other guy's car, which is Officer Gale.

[39:06] Speaker 1: He seeks cover behind Gale's car. And that went fine until Gale drove away, again. A- and, and, and left them out there in the middle of a freaking street in a field. And then this officer, who's armed only with a pistol, starts running away. (laughs) And so instead of just backing away with a pistol, now he's fricking hauling butt with his back to the bad guy and he, and he, he gets sh- he gets shot at that point. He ends up surviving, but he ends up getting shot. And our, our second... you know, the officer that fled in, in the car that the dude was using for cover, he was the one that ended up getting shot in the hand while he was in his cruiser. I don't think he ever got out of the car. So, it goes on to say that at 1:10, um, it, uh, it says that an SUV with another L- Lorain police officer arrives and an FBI agent. They're able to find Officer Payne. They put a tourniquet on him, likely saving his life. So, he's the one that was running through the field and he got shot.

[39:52] Speaker 1: He was trying to get to the woods. And, um, they transported Payne to Mercy Hospital and then we got two other SUVs arrive, w- with the Lorain officers and they, uh, take cover and they see Parker, our bad guy, near a silver vehicle and they fire and kill that sucker, which is the best news in this story. Officers then pull Officer Wagner, uh, from his cruiser and rush him to the hospital. He's the original officer, um, that was there, um, with, with, um, with Payne and, and he ended up dying unfortunately. Officer Gale, the one shot in the hand that, um, the, I call him, nicknamed him The Fleer, and Officer Payne, they both survived their injuries. And, uh, Officer Gale, uh, the guy that got shot in the hand, uh, he's expected to return to work in a couple of months.

[40:34] Speaker 1: Uh, the other officer, Payne, that had been hiding behind his cruiser, um, th- he got shot running, trying to run through the field when he lo- lost his cover, uh, he recently had another major surgery and it says his arm is completely shattered and he's not expected to be able to return to police work. Captain Land said they're still working on trying to understand the motive, the plan. None of the three officers they say were targeted. They think it was an, a spontaneous ambush act. Um, Captain Land said they have no evidence that Parker, the bad guy, had any assistance in the crime. Parker had previously been diagnosed in 2016 with paranoid schizophrenia. He was a lifelong resident of the area of Lorain and, uh, they said he had a lot of guns. The family knew he had guns. He had no alcohol or drugs in his system when they did toxicology. We got a little over a minute. Uh, we may be able to go a little bit over than that, but Jeff Weninger, start us off.

[41:20] Speaker 4: You know, I, I think that this is an opportunity for all law enforcement agencies across the country to assess themselves. And what I mean is, ensure that you're training your officers to be able to confront this type of a situation and have the tools and the knowledge and the insight and the training, and I emphasize the training, to be successful and win these types of battles. The reality is, is 60% of law enforcement officers in this country are required to fire under range only one to two times a year. That's a reality. And only 1% of officers in this country are required to fire under range every month. So, what makes us think that these officers have had active training when you're dealing with long gun type scenarios where you're going to be in this type of a gun battle? Not likely. And there was a number of things that I saw that they just weren't doing properly as far as cover and all that, that just basically makes it perfectly clear they hadn't trained for this.

[42:20] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Uh, Chief Ralph, I know that we're gonna go a little, just a little over time. We're cutting to the Wounded Blue time, but, uh, Chief Ralph?

[42:26] Speaker 2: I agree w- with everything Jeff said and I think a lot of training, especially in rural areas, about long rifles, w- you know, sometimes being in a car, being in a car is a target. Even in the inner urban cities that we worked in, they would train us, sometimes a car is not your, is not your friend. You gotta get away from a car. So, if I was driving up to that, I would have looked for trees in the distance, something, good cover besides a car. But, and it, everything Jeff said, I agree with.

[42:53] Speaker 2: More training, more shooting, uh, in urb- in, in rural areas, train about long rifles, you know, in that danger, because in an inner city, we train about-

[43:03] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[43:04] Speaker 2: ... pulling up to a, to a home.

[43:06] Speaker 1: I appreciate it. You're absolutely right. Uh, Chief Ralph Ornelas and, uh, Commander Lieutenant Jeff Weninger, thanks for being on the show, guys. Appreciate it. Do want to mention the Wounded Blue at the woundedblue.org. Please check them out. Gallus.com, ComplyingTechnologies.com, GunLearn.com, America.care.lifesaverrecruiting, and Two Bellas. Thanks, guys. We'll see you back tomorrow, 12:00 noon Eastern.

[43:24] Speaker 1: (rock music plays)