[00:00] Speaker 1: (Rock music playing) Welcome to the Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host, and we're a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a law enforcement perspective. And we've got... You recognize him. You may not see him right now, but it's Jeff Weninger, LAPD commander. Former. He retired as a lieutenant from LAPD. Now he's residing in Ohio, but thanks for being on the, uh, show Commander. Appreciate it. Hey, a shout-out to our sponsors. You know, we have our title sponsor, Golis at golis.com. We also have compliantetechnologies.com, our satellite sponsor. They get us on satellite radio. Back on Cinco de Mayo, May the 5th last year. We also have gunlearn.com, mymedicare.live, safeguardrecruiting.com, our streaming sponsor, and thanks to them, we're streaming to about a million followers right now during the live show. And then, twobells.com.

[00:55] Speaker 1: They've built their new online store at leoroundtable.com. You can go to the store and get cool gear like the mug behind me. We got shirts, we got hats, we got all kinds of stuff. I even got, uh, uh, uh... Well, I bought a bunch of shirts, uh, for Brett for our SHOT Shows. He never wears them, though, so I-I can't really show you those. (Laughs) So... But we don't, we don't make a, a dime off of anything on the online store. We're just trying to get our gear out there so the prices are inexpensive. So check that out. And a, a, a thank-you to Brian Burns for the Tampa Free Press at tampafp.com. Thanks for carrying our content, Brian. Also, Ray Dietrich, with formerlawman.com, and our very own Travis Yates with lawofficer.com. Thanks to all those entities for helping make this show happen. Hey guys, we got some very, uh, good stuff. You know, after I come back from a, uh, uh, from a vacation break, the stories are just... We just have a lot to choose from. So we've got a, um...

[01:40] Speaker 1: They say a tech-illiterate boomer sheriff deputy s-... (laughs) Someone's a little upset, arrest a Texan, uh, veteran over a felony-level trolling. I- it's, it's, it's a story and a reminder about being careful about what you type or what you write or what you say. Um, then we got in, in California, and this affects LAPD, Jeff's former agency, the Supreme Court, they sh-... The, the California Supreme Court, they struck down a warning that LAPD is putting on their complaint forms for citizens. Um, that's interesting and it... And I have my own, you know, beliefs about that. We have officers who are justified in the fatal shooting of a guy named Billy Soto who injured three officers in shootings, and that's in Pueblo. And wow, that's, that's scary. And then New Orleans police officer shoots an armed guy in a gas station that left the suspect partially paralyzed from the waist down.

[02:30] Speaker 1: Uh, Mom bought ammunition and tactical gear for her son's planned mass violence at a, uh, at a school in, um, uh... I think it's, um, San Antonio, I believe. And, uh... Wow. And then we've got another one. Fresno Police released footage of an officer striking an armed suspect with his patrol car. And then football fans are demanding severe punishment for the Texas Public Safety trooper that, uh, that shoulder-checked a, uh, a player. And that's gonna be an interesting story, uh, to cover if we have time to get to it. So Jeff, if you're ready, let's go on and get this party started and, um... Well, let me, let me just star- start off by saying I'm, I'm back from vacation and Jeff and I were talking briefly before the radio portion of the show started, so, um, producer will put together some of our, our best stuff, you know, for the week. So thanks, guys, for, uh, for supporting the show and watching our, our stuff last week.

[03:20] Speaker 1: Um, I wanna say, you know, I'm at the Carmel California, and I love Carmel. That's where Calamius Wood was the mayor and of course he still lives there. And I also went to Napa, and I've never been to Napa Valley, and, uh, and that was, uh... That, that was good as well. Now, the weather... The only, the only thi- thing that would have made the trip better is, is the weather. Um, I went in, uh, you know, of course this month, November, but when I left Tampa... You know, Tampa had a, a, a cold front that came in, Jeff, and it was actually colder here in Tampa than it was in California where I was at, if you can believe that. And it, and it was chilly where I was at, and so it was overcast. I was telling you about the... You could see the clouds, the fog rolling in. It was like you were in San Francisco. And, uh, and then when I went to Napa it started... You know, it rained for two or three days, and so, um... But I, I still had a great time and, um, met a, uh...

[04:08] Speaker 1: There was only one distillery in, uh, in Napa. So Marissa took good care of my wife and I, and, and I got hooked on a new bourbon that I ordered six bottles. It will be delivered to my house shortly. So, uh, yeah. I can't wa- can't wait for that. That's some good stuff, so... Um, I got some really bad news on Saturday, just before I left on my trip on Sunday. And a, a guy I worked with, and you know the story, um... You know, um, a guy I worked with, uh, grew up on the department with, my partner for many, many years, Rick Cimitelli, uh, died on Saturday morning. And, uh, then I got notified, uh, and I had to leave less than 24 hours later and I couldn't stick around to do a lot, you know, for the family, for his wife or anything. So that, that sucked. Um, uh, j- it's just sad, a- a- as we get older, these, these guys we work with. A- and he was, uh, you know, relatively, you know, young around, I think, around 65, you know? But, um... Yeah. Just, uh... Just devastating.

[05:05] Speaker 1: So I've got a, uh, a funeral that I'll be going to coming up on, uh, the, uh... I think De- December the 3rd, and, um... So you'll be in charge while I'm gone, Jeff. But, uh... But yeah. Just, uh... Just, uh... Man, just a little reminder, a- a- and you know, the, the job takes its toll on you, uh, physically and mentally too, so... Um, but if, uh... Anything you want to add, Jeff? Are you ready to get started on the, uh, on the main topic or...

[05:29] Speaker 2: Yep. Le- ready to rock and roll.

[05:31] Speaker 1: All right. Let's, uh... Let's get this party started here. So guys, our first topic. There's a lot to this. Um, rvmnews.com, which is Red Voice Media. Tech-illiterate boomer sheriff deputies. (Laughs) They're really slamming the, the deputies for making the arrest on this. But they arrest this Texas veteran over a felony-level trolling, is what they're calling it. So guys, there's a moral to the story, so listen to this. I- it's not gonna make sense at first, but I'll, I'll, I'll swing it home for you. A Navy veteran in Hood County, Texas, arrested earlier this month after local authorities allege that he violated the state's online impersonation statute.That's very interesting. He posted a satirical, uh, social media image. So satire can get you in trouble. So listen, the Hood County Sheriff's Office charged Colton Krottinger with felony online impersonation name, uh, persona create page. Uh, that's what it's called. It's a third-degree, uh, felony through...

[06:28] Speaker 1: His attorney maintains the post was political humor. So our... A- and I'm really not gonna call him a, a, a bad guy, but this, uh, uh, Krottinger guy, he operates the Blue Branch Historic Ranch. It's a veteran's mental health center in Granbury, and he ended up being arrested on November the 5th. So it sounds like he's, like, a righteous dude. He's got, you know, this, uh, mental health center for veterans. I mean, how could the story get any better, right? His detention appears, uh, tied to an October 2nd Facebook post. And, uh, so they... It took just over a month for him to get arrested after he made the post. And, uh, it w-... He... I guess he posted a fake screenshot formatted to resemble a real post from a rival local activist. Apparently, they don't like each other. So the image used the activist's profile picture and name above a text expressing support for the then Granbury, um, ISD school board candidate Monica Brown.

[07:23] Speaker 1: Um, so according to the complaint, the victim states that she does not support Monica Brown. So he, he, he was impersonating a female, um, and, uh, a, a, a rival activist saying that she supported this Monica Brown, but the victim is saying she doesn't. And that she stated that the public being misled by the post as to what the victim actually believes is concerning, um, uh, during the pol-... during the election race. And Rob Christian, who's our guy that got arrested, Krottinger's attorney, told the Dallas Express that the image could not constitute a, uh... or should not constitute a criminal offense. And he goes on to say, quote, "After 25 years of experience as a district attorney and criminal defense attorney, I have never seen anyone get arrested for engaging in, in, uh, political speech." And, uh, he, he said it was a meme. So local officials also questioned the basis of the arrest.

[08:10] Speaker 1: Now, the Hood County Constable John Schierle told the outlet that the activist who was depicted, um, that, uh, that female said, uh, very openly, loudly, and publicly hates Monica Brown, who the other guy, you know, that got arrested said that she was endorsing for, you know, the, uh, the school election. Constable Schierle added that the satirical nature of the image was widely recognizable. He said it's a political... Uh, uh, it's a picture of a political sign that everybody who knows the person whose account it was, and they're not giving the female's name, by the way, uh, but everybody knows apparently, uh, that it was fake and a joke. But under Texas state law, it is a crime to use the name or persona of another person to harm, defraud, intimidate, or threaten any person. So there you have it. Um, are we... Uh, did they, did they get it wrong or, uh... What do you think about this one, Jeff?

[09:02] Speaker 2: I would say what a waste of resources. Uh, I, I, I would be interested to see what evidence they have that this person was, was harmed, defrauded or... 'Cause, uh, you know, at, at the end of the day, l- let's be honest, we probably both have been on (laughs) social media and you see this stuff all the time.

[09:22] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

[09:22] Speaker 2: It's... They're m-... They... It's, it's humor more than anything. And, um, so... You know, so I kind of dug into it to think just, "Okay, is there a political, uh, basis behind this arrest?" And, you know, interestingly enough that the sheriff of that county is Republican. Uh, the district attorney, um, Ryan Sinclair, he's, he's a Republican. Um, I would assume that this gentleman just based on what he's involved in, taking care of military vets and, and whatnot, that he's conservative or a Republican. Um, so it, it doesn't seem to be some sort of, um, political, um, motivation behind it, uh, but it's... There must be some pressure coming from somewhere. But I, I just don't see the elements of the crime. I mean, show me, show me where you were, where you were harmed. Um, I, I just... (instrumental music plays) I'm not buying it.

[10:13] Speaker 1: Yeah, the school board being part of this too, you know, kind of raise a little flag for me 'cause they're, you know, by nature, you know, they're on the opposite side of the equation, right? Liberal, right? But, um, hey, we're coming up for our first commercial break, guys. Stick with us. It's gonna get good. We'll be right back. (instrumental music plays) My family only cares about one thing, that I come home safe.

[10:35] Speaker 3: At Gulls, every order begins with a promise made with purpose. Stitched for support. Backed with pride. Answered by dedicated hands. Delivering the standard you have sworn to uphold. We serve more than the mission. We serve the person. Each piece is engineered to help get our first responders through the shift and back home safe.

[11:26] Speaker 1: Welcome back to Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I'm your host. We're joined by LAPD Commander, former, uh, Lieutenant Jeff Weninger. So thanks for being on the show, Jeff. We've been talking about a, uh, a, a, a, a veteran, military veteran that got, um, arrested for what I think that we would consider satire. Um, you know, in, in talking about this in off-camera, you know, during the break, Jeff and I were talking. You know, I, I, I, I ran the Leo Affairs, uh, website for over a decade and, and I was telling Jeff that when people start getting arrested for satire and stuff, 'cause we did a lot of it on, on Leo Affairs. And, um-You know, I, I, I daresay that Jeff and I have probably been responsible for doing things, um, similar to what this guy's done, and could have got jammed up for it, you know, during our careers and stuff, you know.

[12:19] Speaker 1: But, um, but one thing I, I guess, (sighs) you know, he's impersonating somebody else. If it's, if it's, if it's, if it's clearly, you know, satire, that would be one thing. Um, but, um, I guess that's the big question, you know. Whenever you're impersonating someone else, or, or, a- and there could be damages because of that, you may be throwing yourself on the hook, so. A- and, and it's a, uh, it's a legal thing, you know. So guys that write things, of course, you know, um, um, you know, libel's written, slander's, you know, verbal, that s- people make statements and, and do things without thinking about the consequences. And actually, um, you know, it can be, defamation of character can, can be a criminal offense in addition to being a civil offense, you know, where you get sued too. So you can have, you have the possibility of both components there, which is kind of scary. So I, I guess the takeaway for me is that, just be so careful what you do.

[13:14] Speaker 1: We're very insulated, uh, hav- do- doing commentary on a, on a, uh, on a talk show. And, and that is, um, that is, um, there's, there's, um, you know, court precedent for that, which is nice. Um, but we do like to give disclaimers and credit the sources. And we w- basically repeat, other than the commentary, we're repeating information that's on other news sources. But, um, yeah, if you're gonna be writing something or saying something and attributing it to somebody else, you'd better make sure you get it right. U- unless it's clearly, you know, plain, plain as day that you're joking around.

[13:46] Speaker 2: Yeah, I th- I think really the issue here has been probably what is being suggested, is that this satire potentially impacted the result of the election. And the person that truly would have been the one harmed would have been the school board candidate that was running.

[14:06] Speaker 1: Right.

[14:06] Speaker 2: More of the candidates that were running against one another, and did this, in some way, influence the outcome? I think that would be hard to prove. Um, it, it, it'd be interesting. Un- unfortunately the article doesn't get into that.

[14:20] Speaker 1: No.

[14:20] Speaker 2: Uh, but, uh, I sus- I suspect that that's the premise of what's going on with this whole, whole arrest.

[14:30] Speaker 1: Well, there's any update, we'll bring it to you. So, uh, so thanks, Jeff. And, uh, moving along, newsbreak.com. California, yeah, just where I came from on Friday, and where Jeff, you know, lived most of his life. California Supreme Court strikes down a warning on LAPD citizen complaint forms. And I'm a big proponent and fan of, uh, of these, of these, um, of these, uh, of these warnings. I'm even a bigger fan of prosecuting, criminally prosecuting people that lie in order to, um, you know, they, by filing false reports on police officers, 'cause it, it happens. Um, but I will tell you realistically, to, according to my knowledge, it is, it's, it's very rare that agencies go after the, the people that do that. So a warning that people see before they file out a complaint against Los Angeles police officers, it creates a barrier to free speech, according to the California Supreme Court, and they ruled, they, they just ruled on that.

[15:27] Speaker 1: Uh, it, there's a, uh, a long-running lawsuit over this language. But there's a, a couple of different things. There's the wording of the, of this, um, this complaint form, and then there's a- another section that's in bold, so we're gonna get to that. The High Court ruled six to one, so there's one to center, in favor of the City of Los Angeles, and they ruled, by doing that, they ruled against the union that represents the police officers in finding that the admonishment describing penalties for filing a false report, it has the potential to deter citizens, quote, "Citizens from filing truthful, or at least not knowingly false complaints of police misconduct," unquote, which just blows my mind. Now the warning, according to them, exhibits numerous characteristics that considered together sufficiently burden a protected form of speech, namely truthful, or at least well-intentioned complaints of police misconduct, so as to warrant heightened constitutional scrutiny.

[16:17] Speaker 1: And that's according to Associate Justice Joshua Groban, um, and he wrote that in the majority opinion. And the ruling turned on a 1995 law that sought to create consequences for false claims against police officers, 'cause believe it or not, guys, it happens. And anyone filing a complaint against a police officer could face criminal charges if they knowingly file a false report. And again, I, it, it says knowingly. Um, so at the LAPD, officials went further, and I think this is, this is, a- and Jeff, correct me if I'm wrong, but I, I think this is the point of, of contention here. At LAPD, um, they, um, put in, in bold font, in all capital letters, that they understood the potential penalties. This is the person making the report. And here's exactly what it says. Quote, and remember, this is, this is capitalized, in bold, in quotation marks, "It is against the law to make a complaint that you know to be false.

[17:07] Speaker 1: If you make a complaint against an officer knowing that it is false, you can be prosecuted on a misdemeanor charge." Unquote. And it doesn't say that you will be, it says that you can be, all right? Um, the court found that the warning is biased in favor of the police, because witnesses who make false statements in defense of an accused officer would face no charges for lying (laughs) . That is just a, uh, uh, that's an interesting point to bring up in their decision on this. The Los Angeles Police Protective League, which of course, you know, um, our, our friend Jamie works, uh, works for, uh, the union representing the LAPD officers, they argued that the form is constitutional and necessary to prevent false complaints that would taint an officer's career.

[17:49] Speaker 1: The decision actually reversed a California appellate court ruling, um, in a 20, uh, 2002 California Supreme Court decision in a related case, both of which agreed with the police union that the warning passed constitutional muster. And it goes on to say that California law is now in line with multiple federal court rulings which founded the warning violates the, the First Amendment, but they didn't really go into a lot of detail. In a dissent, here's what our, our lone dissenter said, Associate Justice Goodwin Liu said that the law and the warning are, quote, "No more unconstitutional than laws that make it a crime to commit perjury, file a false police report, submit a false document to a public agency, or lie to a government official concerning an official matter," unquote.So, um, Jeff, I'd love to get your LAPD take on this one.

[18:33] Speaker 2: Well, when I was there, pretty much the entire time, um, you- we were not to admonish verbally people. (instrumental music plays) So, we can get into it, but, um, the whole issues with complaints with LAP is- is quite unique.

[18:48] Speaker 1: Okay. And I can- I can wait to hear this one. This should be good. Guys, we're coming up on our second commercial break, so stick with us. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about Compliant Technologies at complianttechnologies.com and they're committed to providing non-lethal solutions to help officers gain the upper hand safely and rapidly in a humane, low optics manner utilizing what they call their CD3, which stands for Conductive Distraction and De-escalation Device technology. Now, we all know their flagship product is called The Glove. It's helped officers not only tens of thousands of times, but they've actually had over 250,000 deployments, no injuries, no deaths. It's an amazing stat.

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[20:01] Speaker 1: We're talking about, um, the California Supreme Court jamming up, uh, the- the police officers in the union, uh, by saying they- they don't like the warning on a police complaint form that talks about, um, being the possibility, not that they will be prosecuted for lying, but the possibility of being, uh, prosecuted for lying about, you know, about what a police officer did wrong in order to make a complaint against him. So, uh, Jeff Weninger was just getting ready to talk in detail about that, and he said you has- you- you guys over at LAPD, it's a little unique process over there, Jeff?

[20:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the whole time that I was- I was there, you- you couldn't admonish people of the fact that if they made a false complaint, that it was a misdemeanor, or they could possibly be charged with a misdemeanor. The reality is, is that the LAPD takes all citizen complaints, all of them, even if they're obviously not true. And, you know, they say someone could- could request a supervisor and say that the officer stole my brain, you know, or- or something like that, and they're gonna cut paper and there's gonna be an official personnel complaint that's gonna go through the entire investigation and the process and adjudication-

[21:11] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[21:12] Speaker 2: ... and, you know, it would be, you know, de- demonstratively false would be the- the adjudication of something like that, but- but- but at the end of the day, they're gonna take that complaint. Uh, we take all complaints and very few, the small percentage of complaints are actually taken on a written form. It- it- always in our policy requires that if somebody requests a supervisor and they wanna make a complaint, you don't just hand them a complaint form and say, "Here, fill this out and send it in." You're required as a supervisor to take that complaint in real time as you're interacting with that person. So you're- you're required to take that complaint anyway, and- and if you have any inkling that this thing is completely false, it's- it's your responsibility as an investigator to ensure that you're- you're- you're creating the, uh, the- the investigation that's gonna accurately reflect that.

[22:04] Speaker 2: And now the investigation has to be thorough, accurate, and complete, but if it is completely false, uh, your investigation should be able to at least l- lend the- the adjudicator to- to see that that's actually the case. And the LAPD, you know, have people that are like chronic complainers and you get put in a chronic complainer file, so if you're- if you're one who makes all these, you know- you know, erroneous complaints all the time, you- you get identified and, uh, and- and put into a file. Um, but, you know, at the end of the day, the entire time in my career, we- we were never allowed to admonish them on that fact. And then I would- I don't know of anybody that ever (laughs) has been prosecuted as a result of making a false complaint to the LAPD.

[22:46] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[22:46] Speaker 2: I don't think that they would ever pursue it. Um, you know, but, you know, I gotta tell you, I remember when I was a sergeant down at 77th Division and when I got transferred there, I went in to meet with the division captain and I had worked with him. He's a detective at Wilshire Division when I was a police officer, a field training officer at Wilshire, and we- we met and sat down and he was telling me his philosophy about personnel complaints and he- he shared an example with me where he's like, "You know, I had this complaint of a street prostitute that was making this allegation against an officer," and he's like, "There's just no way this could possibly be true." And, you know, in part of the investigation, they set up a sting and they- they caught him (laughs) and he's just like, "I would've never imagined that this could possibly be true," and it was.

[23:32] Speaker 2: And, you know, people have often said there's- there's- there's not a, uh- there's not a violation of policy or a crime that an on-duty officer hasn't committed, you know, somewhere in the United States. So, you know, the reality is you have to take all complaints seriously and- and, you know, the LAPD does, and they investigate them thoroughly. So the real impact of it not being on the- the complaint form, uh, to- to be honest with you, I- I understand the argument that it should be there. I don't understand why it wouldn't be there. I don't see the harm in it, uh, but, you know, at the end of the day, it doesn't really have a huge outcome in how the LAPD handles and adjudicates complaints.

[24:15] Speaker 1: Well, you know, I, um, they hinted that it's following new precedent now that it's being sent around the- well, I shouldn't say around the country, but they said another court, so I'm- I'm- I'm- I'm reading into that, that around the country that- that other, at least appellate level, uh, courts are ruling, uh, that this is- this is the- this is the new format. Um, so I'm- I'm unaware of that.I mean, I, I, I hear what you're saying. Even, even with my agency, uh, it was so frustrating to see people knowingly flat-out lie, fabricate, you know, um, you know, information about officers doing things. And it completely... Officers completely vindicated, but after you spend all the man-hours to try to do that, and nothing happens to them. It just, it, it, it drove the troops crazy. Um, and so I, I really would like to see... Occasionally you'll hear about someone, you know, uh, being taken to court or being... and being prosecuted, but you're right, very, very, very rarely.

[25:10] Speaker 1: And it, it's just aggravating.

[25:11] Speaker 2: I know. A s- a skilled investigator, uh, a sergeant that responds to, to a scene and you're hearing this allegation, you, you can, you can generally pick up on stuff. And if you're a skilled investigator, you, you can challenge them in your interview. Uh, you, you don't have to be honest, either. (laughs) You're, you're conducting an investigation.

[25:31] Speaker 1: Right.

[25:31] Speaker 2: There were times I'd be like, you know, the- "This is, this, this operation at which you had contact with these officers, this is, this is a, uh, you know, a video. Do you, do you see that over there? That's a video. I've already reviewed the video. I already know what happened and saw what happened. Do you wanna change anything?" And they're like, "Well, uh..." Then they start hemming and hawing, and then they retract what their complaint is, because... But there was no video.

[25:54] Speaker 2: I never saw anything-

[25:56] Speaker 1: Right.

[25:56] Speaker 2: ... but I knew that they... I knew that they were lying. So as an investigator, you, you can, you can clean these things up, you know, if you-

[26:02] Speaker 1: Not...

[26:02] Speaker 2: ... if you, if you're skilled.

[26:03] Speaker 1: So, um, not always, though. I'm... So the one th- the one that really comes to my mind, we had a panelist, um, uh, David DeAgresta on our show, and he got accused of rape on duty in the back of his, uh, squad car, and, um, the, uh, victim was somewhat uncooperative. So in order to clear his name... Now they finally, he finally, uh, got cleared by the de- by the department, but they wouldn't go after her, and they said before they r-removed his name as a suspect in the rape report that he had to get her to, in open court, admit that she lied. And, uh, and, uh, that's what he ended up doing. It took him a year, and he got her to admit in court. She never got prosecuted for it, but she admitted that she had lied and made it all up. She was having an affair on her husband and there was a, uh, signal three enac- you know, a hit-and-run accident, and David went to her house, and she would not admit that she had hit, hit the car.

[26:53] Speaker 1: Uh, and she didn't want her husband to know where she was, and so she said he, he took her... you know, he took her to the jail. But he was on the phone with his wife the whole time, and he went through the Crosstown Expressway timestamps. He... Something was hinting him up about her, and he made a, uh, made a very distinct, um, um, effort to make sure that he could prove timelines. That's why Crosstown Expressway, when you're going through and it... you have the card for your car, there's a timestamp, all that kind of stuff. So he ended up being able to prove that he didn't do it. But they seized his car, put him on the porch for, I think, a couple, two, three months while they're doing the investigation. You know, he's at home, suspended with pay, and, and so, so there are... Those are the kinds of things that, that really bother me, because you got someone, that's a, that's a heck of a... You know, he'd show up at the...

[27:37] Speaker 1: They had him, they had him working, you know, at a desk assignment, but all the women in the office, you know, at, at the sector office were freaking out, and they had to l- make him stay at home because no female is willing to be around him. I mean, so that-

[27:48] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[27:48] Speaker 1: ... that's, that's a kind of... Uh, that's some bad stuff. So, yeah.

[27:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, but that, that's, that's unbelievably egregious. I mean, you know, talk about, uh, (laughs) you know, our first story when we were talking about satire where it's harming somebody and you're making a personnel complaint against somebody that's completely fabricated, that seriously can harm somebody and harm their career-

[28:05] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[28:06] Speaker 2: ... and their reputation. So, you know, yeah, th- you do have things like that, but, uh, when you telling me that story, it, it, it makes me think of, uh, does the organization have policies and procedures that are in place to protect its employees? You know, like with the LAPD, you do not have a, a single male that's gonna transport a female, ever. That's never gonna happen. Um...

[28:26] Speaker 1: Well, you've gotta be kidding me.

[28:28] Speaker 2: No, you, you have to have a-

[28:29] Speaker 1: Are you serious?

[28:30] Speaker 2: You have to have a third party with you, and generally you get a female, just like you have a female search a female. And if they have two female cops-

[28:37] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[28:37] Speaker 2: ... that stop a male, the, uh, you have to get a male cop to, uh, to search him.

[28:41] Speaker 1: Wow.

[28:42] Speaker 2: Un- unless it's exigent circumstances, like it's, it's a, uh-

[28:44] Speaker 1: Well-

[28:45] Speaker 2: ... you know, it's a safety issue that you have to get it done right now, but if it's just for, uh, a pat-down search to transport, nah, you gotta get somebody of the, uh-

[28:53] Speaker 1: Well, searching.

[28:54] Speaker 2: ... extent. But-

[28:54] Speaker 1: Searching, I can, I can see that, unless it's exigent.

[28:56] Speaker 2: But even, even transporting, you know, you, you-

[28:57] Speaker 1: But transporting doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[29:00] Speaker 2: ... you have to have a third party. You gotta have a third party. I mean, it's-

[29:02] Speaker 1: You know, it's funny, I, uh, I know we're getting off on a topic and I apologize to the... Hopefully our users are finding this stuff interesting. When I retired, um, I started teaching vacation Bible school, um, at my, at my church. And so for people who don't know, those are kids that are in grades one through, uh, one through five. I don't think the sixth graders are in there, um, but one through five, or let's just say one through six. But, but I remember freshly being retired, I mean, like, like, six months ago, and, uh, and they didn't want, they didn't want the kids hugging you. They, uh, they didn't want me... I was in charge of... I was like... I, I would run the kids from class to class to class, you know, throughout the day, but they... I couldn't... If a, if a parent didn't come up to pick up a kid, I couldn't stay alone with the kid to make sure the parent, you know, showed up. I'd have to have somebody with me. And, and it was so unusual. It was just so weird.

[29:55] Speaker 1: I wasn't active law enforcement anymore, but it was just like... It just... The switch. It was just like I, I had to act so differently. In my law enforcement capacity, there was never a question, and, and I never would have given it a second thought, but then I had to start thinking differently, which is the craziest thing. Uh-

[30:11] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[30:11] Speaker 1: ... but it was a wake-up... It was a, a huge wake-up call. Yeah.

[30:14] Speaker 2: Like, like, departments that... You know, if you have in-car radios, or a body worn, you should have them on when you're transporting.

[30:20] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

[30:21] Speaker 2: They capture everything. (instrumental music plays)

[30:22] Speaker 1: Good point. Well, guys, we're coming up on our third commercial break. Again, if you want to enter that two bells giveaway, type in the number two and the letter B for bell and give us your email address on the stream in order to win that. I hopefully will make... be making that announcement soon. We'll be right back. All right guys, it's time to talk about GunLearn at gunlearn.com. And hey, they got something new going on. We all know about the certified firearm specialist, right? They had this program where you become a certified firearm specialist, but now they've hooked up with Smarter Degree, Smarter Degrees university partners, and now that...... certification that actually Captain Brett Bartlett already has. Even if you got it up to five years ago, you can convert that into college credit.

[30:59] Speaker 1: So yeah, you get rewarded for that education and gunlearn.com, of course, is the first and only company they offer a step-by-step program that takes you from your present knowledge level to become a safe, accurate, and competent certified firearms specialist. Now, they've been doing this since 1996. They've taught everything that LEOs need to know about firearms and ammunition to all facets of law enforcement. And you can start the day with online training, or you can register to attend a live seminar. You can actually get free training for yourself and all the personnel at your agency by hosting a seminar for absolutely no cost. The founder, Dan and Kelly, put this together. You can go to the gunlearn.com to get more information. Again, that's gunlearn.com and, uh, hey, if you haven't been there before, go to the day, you don't know what you don't know. Welcome back, Leo, Leo Roundtable, uh, leoroundtable.com. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host.

[31:41] Speaker 1: And we've got, uh, former LAPD Commander, Lieutenant Jeff Wininger on the show. I almost said, "LEO Affairs." I don't know, it happens every once in a while 'cause I had LEO Affairs for so long. Uh, but, uh, Jeff, uh, anything else or are you ready to go? You ready to move on? Well, look, but why don't you un- unmute your microphone. Give us the update on On Thin Ice at onthinicebook.com.

[32:02] Speaker 2: Well, On Thin Ice is doing extremely well. And, um, as part of the book, I've reached out and I'm doing a scholarship for undergraduate and graduate level students at the university. And, um, if you're interested in, uh, looking into that, it's a total of $30,000 that I'm giving away of my personal money, uh, because I, I feel that that's the, uh, next generation that's going to determine how law enforcement is policing in the future. And, uh, if you're interested, you can go to scholarship.onthinicebook.com.

[32:36] Speaker 1: That's great. That's real great stuff. There, you guys got it. So, check out that book. Get it, and you got all different kinds of versions, too. I know you're gonna be working on, on, on a readable or, or one that you're gonna read, uh, an audible version, I guess I should say. So, uh, but good deal. Good stuff. Well, guys, uh, we're gonna cover a couple stories with video components real quick here. Uh, I think we got enough time to cover, uh, both of these. Uh, rumble.com, our favorite law enforcement video channel called This Is Better, officers are justified in the fatal shooting of a guy named Billy Soto.

[33:02] Speaker 4: ... eight seconds on the officers as they parked their patrol vehicles. Officer one was struck and incapacitated. Soto then fled the scene on foot. (car horn honks) (gunshots) (phone rings) Yeah? Hey, man, I'm a army vet, I got a CLS bag. Okay, is he shot? I just need your help. Just help me out, okay? Okay, I got you, man. Oh, fuck. Where the hell is he? I got an army vet here with me right now, he's helping me. Turn around to the other side. Yeah. See if we can get the other one on the other side, you guys. Unless we could... No, I was gonna say we could lift it off, but see how this is? See, this whole pole is holding it and then that side, the hinges go up and down. We'd have to break the, kick the whole thing off there. (gunshots) (screaming) Shit. Come on. (screaming) Fuck, he's dropped a gun. Where did he come from? I don't know, he's back here. Which arm? Left arm, pick me up. My leg. I can't tell. My leg. (screaming) Push. We got a drone coming or anything?

[34:25] Speaker 4: (screaming) Get him over to that gas station. (sirens) Get a, uh, ambulance over to that altar right away. 100 to the drone unit, did you see my flashlight going up in the sky? I hear him. Standby, standby. (gunshot) Oh, shit. I'm being hit. (gunshots) Officer is hit. Officer hit. (sirens) What do you think? Hey, call out the cops. Call the police. Huh? Who's down there? Top of the roof, top of the roof. On the where? You see the garage right here? I don't have my lights on either. I don't have mine neither. I got mine. Where's he at? Hold up, wait. Hold on. Stop. Stop.

[35:41] Speaker 1: Definitely a bad guy. He injured three officers in shootings. Shootings, plural, yeah. There were at least three of them. Um, so we're in Pueblo, uh, Colorado. Of course, you know, our, um, our panelist, um, Chief Chris Knoeler is the Pueblo Police chief. And, uh, it starts off talking about the 10th Judicial Circuit, or Judicial, uh, District Attorney's Office. They ruled, uh, the shooting justified, uh, of c- and of course they should. Three Pueblo police officers were shot and hospitalized while responding to this call on March the 18th. So, it happened in March, uh, but the video has been released now. Papers released by the DA said the officers learned that a man wanted on an active warrant for attempted homicide, Billy Soto, that he was trying to steal a motocator, uh, mo- motorcycle at a location. I need to have some more energy drink apparently. Uh, when officers responded to the area, this guy, who had a long gun, um, he starts firing on the officers, uh, with a rifle.

[36:36] Speaker 1: One officer was reportedly shot in the head. No officers returned fire at this location. So, in the first shoot, he just unloads on them. And I mean, guys, there's, uh, yeah, we have video of this and it goes down fast. And so, and, and the audio...... it's horrible to listen that when you got, you know, officers that have been shot. So, but the first shooting, no officers returned fire. They're just retreating, just trying to take cover. And remember, the guy's got a, a, a long gun, so it's not even a fair fight. As additional officers and the Pueblo County Sheriff's Office arrives, so now we got, uh, the Pueblo police and we got the sheriff's office there. So I, I love it when these guys work together. They're searching for a bad guy and the district attorney says that he ends up, you know, firing at them again and when they're in the backyard of a home. Uh, and so a second officer gets shot in that exchange and I shouldn't say...

[37:23] Speaker 1: I think it was a one-way shoot, 'cause they don't say anything about officers returning fire. But th- the second officer gets shot in the leg and in the arm and they're in the alley behind the home. Now law enforcement, they continue to search for this guy, uh, but, you know, now they're calling in the cavalry and he ends up shooting a third officer in the face and in the neck in the alley, in the same alley. Crazy. So law enforcement, they end up finally seeing this guy on the roof. And remember, we got cops and we got deputies, and these guys don't even hesitate. They don't wait. God bless them. They op- they open up on this dude and, and they, and they strike him and he dies at the scene. And so we have three officers that were taken to the hospital, uh, for their injuries. I mean, it says they were later released. We have two head injuries, a neck injury, not to mention, you know, um, you know, the officer that got shot in the arm and somewhere else.

[38:12] Speaker 1: But I mean, two head injuries and a neck injury and they... and they're, and they're released? That is, that is a, a, a, a gift from God. And, and, and I'm just reading here. You can see in the... It starts off, you're looking at a dash cam when the cops roll up and there's two cops in this car and the bad guy's got the rifle on him. They're not even out of the car yet and he starts opening up on them. He fires 27 freaking shots from a high-powered rifle that he has. You got a picture of it at the end of the, at the end of the clip. These guys are in the patrol car. And so, um... And the bad guy's retreating backwards on foot, but he's facing the officers firing at them 27 times, and that's when one... the first officer got shot i- i- in the head and incapacitated. And then, then it kind of goes... it goes to our second one. Um, and, and, you know, when the officer ends up getting, you know, shot, an army vet runs up to this guy and, and he's talking to the partner.

[39:02] Speaker 1: This is the first shooting. And he goes, "Hey, d- your, your guy shot, shot and needs help. I've got a CLS bag with me, um, a- and, and this guy's trained," and he offers to save the cop's life. And it was just amazing, the, to have this, this military vet there that had a bag and had the capability to save the officer's life. And then you hear the officers call for the drone, and that's apparently right when the drones arrive is when this guy opens the fires o- on the, uh, on the cops again. And I don't know if the drone was able to help pinpoint this guy on the roof or not, uh, but, uh, i- i- it was... it's a, it's a wild, wild video to watch.

[39:36] Speaker 1: Jeff Weninger

[39:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, just a couple takeaways that, that I have from this. Um, kudos to the, uh, former military guy that came to the, uh, the help and the assistance of the, uh, injured officer. That's, uh, that's commer- very commendable. Uh, but I do hope that each one of those police vehicles in Pueblo have some level-

[39:58] Speaker 1: Yes.

[39:58] Speaker 2: ... of trauma kit.

[39:59] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[40:00] Speaker 2: They, they need to have that. All research shows that likelihood for survival of, of officers that receive injuries and trauma in the line of duty, their likelihood of survival is much greater when they have the trauma kits readily accessible to them. So, um, I- I hope that, that, that organization has that. Uh, the other thing was, is, uh, you know, when the, when the shooting occurred and when the drone showed up, uh, the, the, the wisdom of shining your, your light up in the air to allow them to know where you are so they can position the drone, not a great idea. And i- it was kind of underscored here in this situation is immediately after they did that, the officer was shot. So you're, you're giving up your, your location to the, to the suspect. You, you don't want to do that sort of thing. But, uh, you know, I- I- I was a little surprised with, um, the response after the initial shooting.

[40:58] Speaker 2: Um, it seemed to be not as controlled, measured and, you know, systematic and methodical as I would have liked to have seen. You got to contain that location and then do a systematic, methodical search of it where you're putting every opportunity for the suspect to cause an officer harm. Um, you're re- you're minimizing that by strong tactics.

[41:19] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[41:19] Speaker 2: And there, there's just a lot of, uh... It just didn't look as quite as organized as I would have liked to have seen it.

[41:25] Speaker 1: I know we got two and a half minutes, but, uh, j- in short, I, I was impressed they had drones. I, I, I saw... I did see an officer with a long gun. Um, I can't remember. I, I don't know whether it was a deputy or, or, or a police officer, but, but I would have liked to have seen more long guns. I, I... An- and I don't know what... I don't know what their outlay is. I don't know if every cop's got one accessible o- on the, on the cockpit, you know, inside of the car, but I would have liked to have seen more long guns. But, uh... But that's just me. Yeah.

[41:48] Speaker 2: And I, I don't, I don't know what their accessibility is for an airship, but, you know, you can... You set, you set up a containment and, you know, those airships, you know, they got FLIRs on them, you can get heat sources and you can locate where these, these people are hiding, you know. Yeah, granted, they may be able to gain access into somebody's-

[42:03] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[42:03] Speaker 2: ... residence or garage, but, um, you know, it, it's, it's... What a great, uh, tool that is.

[42:08] Speaker 1: Agree.

[42:08] Speaker 2: Drones might perhaps provide the same thing, but an airship is, uh, is even better.

[42:13] Speaker 1: So next story real quick, guys. Rumble.com. This is Butters, the channel. New Orleans police officer shoots an armed man in a gas station, left the suspect partially paralyzed. So I'm gonna cut to the chase on this, 'cause we're, we're thin on time, but I want to get to this one. Officer's in his car, he sees a dude running at him with a gun. It's nighttime. He goes on radio s- telling, "Hey, you know, give me the air. This guy's running at me." The guy ends up running across the parking lot and goes in, like, a convenience store/gas station and, uh, he runs around the counter, goes behind the counter, and, and there's a, a, a civilian working in there, an employee. He's got a, he's got a gun in his hand, but he never... But, but the, the bad guy's there waiting for the cops to come to the door, is what it appears like, waiting to get, like, a surprise on them.

[42:53] Speaker 1: A- a- and he's got his back to this employee with a gun and I kept waiting, I kept hoping and praying this dude was just gonna hold the gun to his frigging head and pull the trigger. I- it didn't happen. Um, and then the, then the guy takes a, a bottle and throws it-... um, it looked like maybe a, a wine bottle or something. Then he jumps the counter and, uh, then it, then a police officer shoots him from behind, in the back of his shoulder it looked like, and he ended up being paralyzed from the waist down. So that's the way it ended. Um, and there ended up being two civilian, or two employees in there 'cause another one ran up to the guy, grabbed onto the bad guy while he's got a gun and he's got a, he's got a, a cell phone in the, up to his ear. I don't know what that was about. But Jeff Weninger, about 27 seconds.

[43:31] Speaker 2: The only thing that I can think is that Louisiana is an open carry, you do not need a permit to carry a gun openly, and th- it, it just didn't rise to the level of concern for this, uh, employee, where this guy had the gun. I, I, that's the only thing I can think of, 'cause I was just like you, Chip, "Why isn't he doing something? Why isn't he responding to this guy? He's clearly a threat."

[43:51] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And- and I- I didn't want to see a, uh, a cop get, you know, get taken out either so, yeah, I'm with you. So, um, you know, because, you know, if the cop would have come in there blind, the guy would started waiting for him and the- a- and the cop never would have seen him before the shots were fired, you know, so. Um, good commentary. Lieutenant Jeff Weninger from LAPD, you, you nailed today so, um, good deal. Guys, don't forget about his book, On Thin Ice, at onthinicebook.com. Get more information about that, and the scholarship is just an amazing thing that you're doing as well. Um, I want to mention The Wounded Blue at thewoundedblue.org, Lieutenant Randy Sutton's 501 (c) (3) that's helping cops out and the role of the hurt that are suffered from things like PTSD and other issues. So if you haven't checked them out before, uh, please check out The Wounded Blue at thewoundedblue.org.

[44:36] Speaker 1: Gollis.com, Complyingtechnologies.com, Gunlearner.com, Americare.lifesaverrecruiting, and Two Bells. Thanks, guys. We'll see you back tomorrow, 12:00 noon Eastern. (rock music plays)