00:13

Speaker 1
Welcome to The Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I'm your host, and we're a group of law enforcement professionals that talk ... There's three of us here. (laughs) Uh, h- I'm including Snoop on that. But we're a group of law enforc- (laughs) professionals. Can you imagine Snoop, Snoop Dogg, being a law enforcement professional? Oh my gosh. Uh, we'd have a, we'd have a lot of missing evidence in the evidence locker. Uh, uh, we're a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a law enforcement perspective. Now, uh, w- there are some people listening to the audio portion of the show. They don't have the benefit of the video, so let me explain what I'm talking about. We've got, uh, Dr. Travis Yates on the show, retired police major from the Tulsa Police Department. He's got a Santa hat on, and in his house, the way he rolls, he celebrates Christmas by ... uh, and I just learned this.

00:59

Speaker 1
He goes out, and he adds to his Snoop Dogg, uh, uh ... I don't wanna use the word paraphernalia, 'cause people might get (laughs) the wrong idea. (laughs) Well, I'm on a roll today with jokes. But, but S- but Snoop, Snoop Dogg, uh, collectibles. And so he's got a, a miniature Snoop Dogg, uh, collectible on, on his desk, on camera, with a, a Santa Claus hat on, very similar to what Travis, Dr. Y- Yates is wearing himself. I'm just kinda fascinated with that. Um, your mic's muted, uh, Dr.

01:28

Speaker 1
Yates, but I, I have no-

01:29

Speaker 2
Well, yeah, we look, we look very similar, as you can tell. He's got a smaller head than me.

01:33

Speaker 1
I, I see it.

01:34

Speaker 2
But we have a similar look.

01:35

Speaker 1
Well, that, yeah, that's hard to believe. But, uh, (laughs) but, but, uh, A, I, uh, I- I love it. I absolutely love it. And is- and the gold, the gold glasses that Snoop's wearing right now, I've always wanted to have Snoop on the show, and, and my Christmas wish has, has ar- has arrived. It's come, it's come-

01:49

Speaker 2
He, he appreciates it.

01:50

Speaker 1
It's, it's come through, yes. All right. So, uh, anyhow, so, uh, welcome to the dog, I- to the dog. Welcome to the show. (laughs) Well, this is, we're getting off to a, a good start. Welcome to the show, uh, Dr. Yates and Snoop Dogg. I think that we're being joined by, um, also, uh, Sheriff Mark Kryger from Walla Walla County in Washington state, retired FBI whistleblower. That's right. In so yeah, we're covering the raid. We're covering the raid. Yeah, I saw the little, I saw the little animation right there, Travis.

02:19

Speaker 2
That was a whistle. That was a whistle.

02:20

Speaker 1
Most, most people would have missed it.

02:23

Speaker 2
(laughs)

02:23

Speaker 1
But no, no, he's on the show with Snoop Dogg, and did you see what he did, Sheriff? Did you see the little animation he did with his fingers?

02:30

Speaker 2
That was a whistle, Sheriff.

02:30

Speaker 1
It was like, it was, that was not a, that was not a police whistle.

02:34

Speaker 2
(laughs)

02:34

Speaker 1
I think that was a doobie. It was an imaginary doobie.

02:37

Speaker 2
Oh.

02:37

Speaker 1
Yeah. All right. So thanks for being on the show.

02:39

Speaker 2
I have a great Christmas story about that.

02:42

Speaker 1
Oh, you do?

02:43

Speaker 2
Yeah.

02:43

Speaker 1
What?

02:43

Speaker 2
Growing up, I was probably, uh, 14 or 15, and we were going through one of the malls where I grew up. And my mom saw ... Do you know what a stone is? Instead of a roach clip, it looks kinda like a little turtle shell. It's about as big as a 50-cent piece.

03:00

Speaker 1
Oh, yeah, yeah.

03:00

Speaker 2
So you can stick the ...

03:01

Speaker 1
Yeah. I know exactly what you mean.

03:02

Speaker 2
My mom saw one of those, and it had a, she thought it had a buckeye leaf on it. And since we were in Ohio, she thought my brother would really like that. She was gonna buy it for him. I had to explain to her what it was.

03:13

Speaker 1
(laughs)

03:13

Speaker 2
Well, Chip, on my bingo card, it did not have this or what the sheriff just did. It didn't have that either. So you started off great.

03:21

Speaker 1
(laughs) Okay. All right, all right. Well, I'll take that and run. All right, uh, so thanks for being on the show, gentlemen. We appreciate it. Hey, a shout-out to our sponsors. You know, we have our title sponsor, gaulles@gaulles.com. We also have compliantetechnologies.com, our satellite sponsor. They get us on satellite radio back on Cinco de Mayo, May the 5th, last year. We also have gunlearn.com, mymedicare.live, safeguardrecruiting.com, our streaming sponsor, and thanks to them, we're streaming to about a million followers right now during the live show. And then, twobells.com, they built a new online store at leoroundtable.com. You can go to the store and get cool gear like the mug behind me. We got shirts, we got hats, we got all kinds of stuff. I even got o- o- o- well, I bought a bunch of shirts, uh, for Brett for our SHOT Shows. He never wears them, though, so I- I can't really show you those.

04:03

Speaker 1
(laughs) So, but we don't, we don't make a, a dime off of anything on the online store. We're just trying to get our gear out there, so the prices are inexpensive. So check that out. And, uh, uh, thank you to Brian Burns for the Tampa Free Press and tampafp.com. Thanks for carrying our content, Brian. Also, Ray Dietrich, with formerlawman.com, and our very own Travis Yates with lawofficer.com. Thanks to all those entities for helping make this show happen. And now, what in the world are we gonna be talking about today? Uh, we've got lawofficer.com, FLOCK Exposed. FLOCK cameras? Wow. Footage found streaming live on the internet. We're gonna explain that. And then we've got a- a- a- an article by Travis Yates himself at lawofficer.com, Are Police Reforms Increasing Force? As a question. Fascinating, fascinating article. I can't w- I can't wait to cover it. And then we got breaking news, FBI raids the home of a Secret Service agent in a tax fraud investigation.

04:55

Speaker 1
They don't give the name of the agent, but I know who he is. And, uh, I don't ... Anyhow, we'll talk more about this later. Uh, it's wild. Um, yeah, I won't, I'll, I'll wait, I'll wait to say that 'til later. Um, armed robbery suspect shot by, um, a, a Houston police officer, um, after holding a store employee hostage. This is a wild viral video, guys, that we're definitely have to talk about. A suspect kills himself when he crashes, intentionally, into a garbage truck during a, a police pursuit, and the garbage truck happened to have a dash cam on it. So you don't wanna miss this. (laughs) And then ... I bet he'll never do that again. A- and then you got VoiceShare and AI-generated, um, nude image- images of 13-year-old girl, and she's the one that gets expelled from school. Curious what you guys, how you guys feel about that, 'cause the school's not, not taking responsibility.

05:47

Speaker 1
Body cam footage shows a, uh, a, um, a county, uh, well, it's a Missouri State Highway Patrol trooper who locates two kidnighted child- kidnapped children on I-70.This is what it's all about, guys. This, this is why we do what we do. And, and, and we need, we need more videos like this to, uh, to remind the public about, you know, why we're here. So, guys, if you're, if you're ready, uh, we got four minutes exactly before we go to the radio portion or, or, or, I, I guess, go to the commercial break. Um, let's start off with lawoficer.com FLOCK-exposed footage found streaming live on the internet. I didn't see this anywhere else. I only found it at lawoficer.com. Thanks to Travis Yates. And so using nothing more than a commercial search engine, a YouTuber, of all people, discovered dozens, and I s- I said dozens, of surveillance camera admin interfaces broadcasting live, and arc, uh, arch- archive footage with no encryption and no login required.

06:41

Speaker 1
That means everybody can get ahold of it. The number quickly grew to nearly 70 exposed devices, many of which were FLOCK Condor cameras that use artificial intelligence to detect, and they track people as they move. So, you can watch this delayed, you know, archive video and live video, um, on the internet. It's avai- you know, it, it's available. It's crazy. This guy's name is Ben Jordan. He's a YouTuber, and he's into technology, but he accessed the feed, said it felt disturbingly casual. He shared his findings with, uh, with security researcher John Gainesig Gaines, who recently found numerous vulnerabilities in several other models of FLOCK automated license plate readers. So, those LPRs, license plate readers, is what the acronym stands for. You point, click, and you're scrolling through 31 days of video, uh, a- a- it's like a streaming service is what it appears like. Families are loading groceries in a Lowe's parking lot. There's a guy leaving his house in New York.

07:30

Speaker 1
A woman jogging alone in a forest trail in Georgia. And the Condor, you know, the FLOCK Condor AI would automatically zoom in on anything that resembled a person or an object. And in one moment, he watched a grown man, or a grown man take a private judgment-free turn on a swing set. (laughs) And, uh, it, it kind of goes from there. Within minutes, our guy, Jordan, cross-referenced a face. He found a professional medical and financial details of the individual. A license plate he spotted on a camera could be used to link in to a license plate app, which reveals the home address of the people. Public police logs in some cities, they list the names and addresses, ages, and arrest reports that map directly back to the footage. It's crazy. The risks are apparent, and they expose this what they call the fragile gap between deployed surveillance and basic cybersecurity.

08:17

Speaker 1
So, you know, I know we get maybe some security handl- enhancements from doing this kind of stuff, but is- the question is, is, is it worth it? Do, do we need to be doing something differently, uh, Dr. Yates?

08:30

Speaker 3
Well, this is the, uh, sort of iffy road we're down, right? I mean, uh, surveillance may help in a lot of areas. I mean, there's no question FLOCK has helped in investigations. It's, it's helped catch, you know, you name it, the type of criminal. But it also has to be done correctly, right? And, uh, are Americans willing to give up certain freedoms to be able to accomplish that? And I think each community's gonna make that decision. There's been a ton of controversy, uh, in some communities with FLOCK. And this probably isn't gonna help. Uh, I, I, you know, I think the thing that disturbed me more, uh, I mean, in the article, we're not, it's not saying that FLOCK is a terrible thing, but how it's being deployed in certain areas obviously is concerning. But I think what kind of concerned me when I... 'cause I watched that entire video. Um, FLOCK's response to it was so flippant.

09:19

Speaker 3
You know, like, "Hey, this is, we don't think this is..." I mean, it was so flippant that it was kind of funny. The guy read the response on one of the FLOCK's cameras, right? And he, and, and then, and recorded it from FLOCK's cameras for the video. Um, I think, I think, uh, if I was FLOCK, and by the way, I think law officer, I mean, FLOCK is a powerful entity. We'll be hearing from them. But I, I don't think you can question, uh, this guy on video did all this, right? So, it's not really a question of whether, uh, they were live cameras or not. The question, I think, is FLOCK's response. FLOCK should be moving very rapidly to secure these cameras up. And I just didn't see that, unfortunately.

09:59

Speaker 1
Well, good way to, good, good start, guys. Stick with us. More to come. Commercial break. We'll be right back.

10:03

Speaker 2
(instrumental music plays) My family only cares about one thing, that I come home safe.

10:11

Speaker 4
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11:03

Speaker 1
Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip Devlock, and I'm your host. We are joined by, uh, Sheriff Mark Kreider from Walla Walla County in Washington State. We've also got Dr. Travis Yates, retired major from the Tulsa Police Department. And as you can see, Snoop Dogg, um, in, uh, in rare form today. Uh, we've been talking about, uh, FLOCK cameras. One, one of the- the surveillance cameras that, um, a YouTuber recently found available online. You can watch archive videos, you can watch live videos. And, uh, a lot, a lot of this has got, you know, AI recognition, you know, technology in it and stuff. And the question is just really at what point, you know, do you compromise, you know? To increase security through means like this, you know, there are compromises that you make, especially when you've got, like, cloud storage and things are available online and stuff, and, and you've got people that can cross-reference information.

11:54

Speaker 1
You know, I, I continue to watch more of that video that you had, you know, on your site, lawoficer.com, Travis. And, you know, he was...... finding out that someone had just had a medical scan for this, and they'd just driven 45 minutes to get to a certain location, they went to a store and what they had purchased at the store. They're, he's, he's watching footage of police, uh, uh, escorting a guy that's having a mental cri- a mental, you know, crisis breakdown into a squad car. I mean, all these things are going on. You can cross-reference the data and find out information about these people. So, um, at- at- at what point, you know, do you, do you, do you consider not doing it, I guess, you know? I- I don't know. Sheriff?

12:32

Speaker 5
Um, well, uh, FLOCK cameras are in the news in the state of Washington. Um, they have made them... They have made them subject to public records requests. Uh, and I know that, uh, the majority of the FLOCK cameras that were in use in the state of Washington have been turned off because of that. So, FLOCK really needs to get out ahead of this. Uh, I think they need to employ two, or three, or four, um, senior law enforcement executives, because I don't think they take the security of the data that they're collecting seriously. And, um, FLOCK cameras are a game changer, especially in a state like Washington that is so severely undermanned with, uh, the lack of law enforcement officers throughout the state. It- i- it is a game changer. You basically have an officer on a corner 24/7, thre- 365, that's out there observing. But you gotta safeguard that data, and you have to safeguard the ability to access that data. And if you're not doing that, then you're gonna lose the technology.

13:43

Speaker 1
Yeah. I love the way you put that, because you're- you're so right. And I don't know why you can't safeguard the data. I- I- it doesn't make any sense. So, um, follow- follow-

13:52

Speaker 5
It's- it's a, it's a big argument within the state o- of Washington, because FLOCK is the one that collects that data. And just like, uh, using NCIC, or NIBRS, or whatever, um, we cannot access that data unless we have a bona fide law enforcement purpose to use it. We just can't search, "Hey, they're hot blondes in- in Corvettes," and see what comes up. Uh, you actually have to have a law enforcement purpose. And then once we download that data, then it is sub- subject to, it should be subject to public records.

14:30

Speaker 5
But the state of Washington has ruled that everything that- that, uh, FLOCK collects is subject to public records, which has led to, um, estranged wives being searched by their estranged husbands-

14:42

Speaker 1
(laughs)

14:42

Speaker 5
... and stuff like... Uh, you- you laugh, but locally here in Walla Walla, we got one of those public records requests, and we were told that we had to give up the data, even though the data wasn't in our possession. It was in FLOCK's possession on the cloud. But now, you know, that that- that data is, can be hacked into, or is just freely out there, is scary. So, um-

15:05

Speaker 1
Yeah.

15:05

Speaker 5
... we- we really need, FLOCK really needs to tighten down the controls on that, um, and- and get control of that data.

15:14

Speaker 6
And the sheriff just gave the reason why FLOCK cameras are not sold to firefighters or Snoop Dogg, the hot blonde search.

15:21

Speaker 1
(laughs)

15:24

Speaker 6
(laughs)

15:24

Speaker 1
You know, that reminds me of a story. So, look, here we go. Well, look, we're- we're, it's close to Christmas. Christmas Eve's tomorrow. And so, I gotta- I gotta tell a story. So, working, when I was a detective in Tampa, and, uh, when I was working in intelligence, I, uh, I was doing, um, organized crime, public corruption, and adult entertainment. W- but all three of those were intertwined. I'll give you a perfect example. So, there was a first of its kind website called voyeurdorm.com. Now, people might remember this. Travis, uh, if you, if anyone says they remember this, I'll be concerned. But anyhow, people might, we may have some... Oh- oh, Snoop might, Snoop might remember this. But anyhow, voyeurdorm.com. And, uh, you could, uh, they had, they had, you know, college-aged girls. They were putting on shows for guys. They had rooms in every, uh...

16:12

Speaker 1
And, I mean, they had cameras in every room, and they just, kind of, went about their life, and they would, you know, do everything, shower, go to the bathroom, all this stuff on camera and stuff. Conve- be able to converse with the guys in the camera and stuff. But this is the first... This is like, this is back... Uh, let me think about when this would have been. This would have been in the, um, late nine... The... This is probably around '90, '98, '99 is when Voyeur Dorm was around. Um, so I found, uh, Voyeur Dorm. It was in a residence in a place called Wellswood, in, within the city limits of Tampa. And I found it. I tracked it down. And, uh, when I- when I went in, uh, with a licensing inspector I had... I didn't have a partner back then. I didn't have Brett yet. Um, so I- I did... I knew... Uh, at least I was smart enough to know not to go in these places by myself. So, I grabbed Keith Schram, who was the head of the licensing division with the city of Tampa.

17:03

Speaker 1
And that was kind of cool, 'cause he had a licensing hat on, which allowed me to do some extra stuff. And we went in there, and I mean, they were swarming with attorneys. But I mean, within minutes, we had all these attorneys showing up. You know, Frank DellaGrana, and Scott Boardman. And I don't think Luke Laroe was there, but all these guys were there. But anyhow, we... It was a game changer. We had to go to court i- i- in trying to shut these guys down, you know, for what they were doing and stuff. Uh, so, uh, that brings, that brings back memories, you know, about people being... But of course, these guys were having to pay to watch the show and stuff. But it was the, uh... Of course, now you got stuff like that everywhere. And, but they all... They're all in Washington state, but yeah, I rest, you know.

17:41

Speaker 5
I- I'm just-

17:41

Speaker 1
Okay.

17:41

Speaker 5
... impressed that you think that I was in college in the, uh-

17:44

Speaker 1
(laughs)

17:44

Speaker 5
... in the '90s. (laughs)

17:47

Speaker 1
(laughs) Oh.

17:48

Speaker 5
Let's just say that the internet was not invented yet when I was in college. Okay?

17:52

Speaker 1
Right. Well, I- I mean, look, I- I graduated from college in, uh, 1983. And, uh, is when I graduated from USF. And I, and- and I came on the police department that- that same year, so.... when I was 21, so we're, we, we're probably close to the same age, I would imagine, so. All right. So, um, if, if it's, if, if you guys are okay with it, I know we got 30 seconds, so, uh, I'm just gonna whet the appetite for the next story. It's a main topic, so it's deep. LawOfficer.com, again, yes. Are police reforms increasing force? Well, that doesn't make any sense. How in the world can that be possible? Well, Travis Yates is gonna tell you in a minute. We'll be right back. All right, guys.

18:28

Speaker 1
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19:15

Speaker 1
And friends, take it from me, when it comes to safety, this is one of the most common sense, hands-on solutions that's ever come along. So go to CompliantTechnologies.com today and tell them that Chip sent you. Again, that is CompliantTechnologies.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at LeoRoundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host. We're joined by Walla Walla County Sheriff, uh, Mark Crider, all the way from Washington State, and also Dr. Travis Yates, retired police major from the Tulsa Police Department. And, um, Sheriff, we were talking about knives on the break, and, uh, you were talking about a video, which I, I, I wasn't aware of. So, what do you, what do you have available there?

19:51

Speaker 5
Yeah. It, uh, I can't remember the exact details, but they were, uh, booking a guy in and, uh, ended up in a fight and-

19:58

Speaker 1
Oh, CBT. It was a CBT. It, it was doing a breath test, right?

20:02

Speaker 5
Yes.

20:03

Speaker 1
And, and the cop had to stab the guy i- in order to win the fight, correct?

20:07

Speaker 5
Yeah. I think the, um, he either lost his gun, uh, the bad guy got his gun or had a gun, I can't remember which. And, uh, yeah, so came down to a knife fight, which, boy, (laughs) we, we don't want to get there, do we?

20:21

Speaker 1
No. No, we don't. I don't remember there being a gun in that. I think that the officer, uh, um, I, I suspect just by, you know, knowing the way those things work, he probably had his, his gun secured outside, but there was, he had a knife. Now, I didn't see him grab a knife anywhere, so I, I'm assuming that he had a knife, that the, that the cop had a knife on him that he did not check in, but that saved the day. And the bad guy was being uncooperative with them during the CBT. They were waiting for him to blow or the time limit, or maybe he was going to blow again, I can't remember. But the guy stood up and basically said, you know, making some threatening gestures and he, and he basically, the cop knew one of them was gonna end up dying. And, uh, and so then when the body cam becomes dislodged and then it comes back on, I counted like, I don't know, no less than 20 puncture holes in the guy's back.

21:06

Speaker 1
He had, the shirt was like, like full, it was just full of blood and lifted up and you could see the, the, there were slashes and punctures all over the... and the guy ended up dying. He ended up expiring. And, um, I actually reached out to that cop to try to get him on the show through his, his father, um, was, uh, retired law enforcement, I believe. And, uh, but I, I never heard back from him because I was trying to, to hook him up with a new knife and to find out the details on the knife that he had, that he used during the fight, but I, I never did get word. But do you know, was that, was that in Washington state? Do you remember or?

21:36

Speaker 5
I, I thought it was in Washington state over on the west side. I can't remember the exactly where.

21:41

Speaker 1
Okay. Yeah, that was a wild, that was, (laughs) that was, that was a wild, that was a wild story. So, um, on this one, LawOfficer.com, Are Police Reforms Increasing Force?, written by our own Travis Yates. So it starts off talking about law enforcement, they have a problem, and if leaders don't start leading, the problems could manifest into more officer injuries and death. Now, a lot of people say how, how in the world could that be? I mean, are we not... you know, we've got, you know, de-escalation and all these other things. It's not, like, solving the problem. The answer would, the quick answer would be no. The latest drama comes from the Chicago Tribune, where everybody seems to be confused, according to our author Tra- Major Travis Yates, a- as to why the use of force within the Chicago Police Department has risen every year since 2021, despite reform after reform. And of course, you know, I thought police reform was the answer, right? So and, and talking about the reforms, Dr.

22:28

Speaker 1
Yates goes on to say that no leader should emulate CPD Chicago. And I think, I think that we all can agree with that. Um, that is an understatement. Here are just a few of the policy requirements that are code for harming police officers if attempted against violent suspects. So list- listen to this, guys. De-escalation is a core principle that includes slowing down, using time, continual communication, persuasion, and warnings. And then trauma informed communication, it must be used along with a respectful tone. And then voluntary compliance, it must be sought before you even use force. And then deadly force can only be used a- as a last resort. Uh, verbal warnings shall be given before force is used. Carotid restraints, I'm a huge fan, are deadly force even though it's actually not. Golly, that carotid restraint has saved, saved my butt so many times. Foot chases are prohibited if the risk outweighs the apprehension of benefit.

23:22

Speaker 1
And when in doubt, officers are encouraged to contain, in parentheses, the suspect. Now on paper, um, and in the mind of the activist, all this sounds like Disneyland, but of course, Chicago, he points out, is not Disneyland if you believe officers are more scared of the policy than violent criminals. He says, uh, than violent criminals with a gun, armed criminals, he says that you're actually right. And in one of Dr. Travis Yates' recent seminars, and this is where I love it, Seconds for Survival, which I wanted to talk about. Officers knew in that particular instance, and there was a video involved, that the suspect had a gun and he was shooting it just before they got there. And if you can actually stomach watching the video, goes on to say the officers followed policy to the letter. They refrained from a foot pursuit and they contained the shooting suspect while being, being very nice to the guy who moments earlier was shooting a gun in a neighborhood.

24:08

Speaker 1
Uh, and it, it goes on to say that, uh, just two cops ended up being shot in that scenario. So, you know, he supposed that was a win because that's what the agency wanted, right? And now that you see the result of insane reforms, like what we just described to you, that have actually never been proven to work. So how did we even get there in the first place, Dr. Yates? Uh, let's get back to the utter shock of the increase in use of force, and the reason reforms aren't reducing force is simple. The reforms don't reduce the use of force, they actually increase it. He goes on to explain some things that he can do a better job than I can of it. Uh, fascinating, fascinating article. It's what we need to hear. Everybody needs to hear it, especially our police leaders, though. Um, Travis Yates.

24:48

Speaker 3
Well, thank you, Chip, for, uh, discussing the article. And- and I didn't think I would be the one to sort of champion this and- because I- obviously, I've been in the leadership space for quite a while, but then I- I kind of got to thinking. If we're- if we- (laughs) if this is- this is a leadership issue, how is the safety of your officers and the policies you're passing not a leadership issue? Just very few people seem to be talking about it, and I don't want to trash reforms. Like, law enforcement should be reforming. The problem is, and I think the sheriff will agree with me, until about 10 years ago, we made reforms based on court decisions and evidence and these things that we knew would work. And then recently, we just seemed to just change things to change them without any evidence whatsoever, and it's gotten us here today, uh, to a crescendo where since 2020, officer- officer assaults have increased exponentially every single year.

25:35

Speaker 3
We've never seen a- a five-year stretch like that. And if you- if you believe in de-escalation, and I think it's probably- there's probably some sound practices to that in certain situations, well, I just want people to understand there's no evidence for that, and I'll just read this quick quote from you, from Dr. Robin Ingle. This is from a peer-reviewed research. Quote, "De-escalation training has not been subjected to rigorous scientific testing." That's pretty important to know because we're all using it, we're all putting it in policy, just like you just read from Chicago. At the same time, it's increasing use of force and increasing officer injury. Well, Travis, how can you say that? Well, I've actually pulled the data from the states that have mandated de-escalation inside policy. Every state I pulled, officer injuries increased.

26:17

Speaker 3
Now, I just don't have use of force numbers 'cause a lot of people don't track that, but if officer injuries increased, I can guarantee you use of force is increased. Virginia increased 123%. Washington increased 42%. Maryland increased 12%. This is before and after their mandated policies from the state legislation. So, I think we have a huge problem in this profession that nobody's acknowledging, uh, you know, and I have an interest in reducing injuries, reducing higher levels of force, and making things better. The problem is they don't call that reform. Reforms are making things worse, so I think we- law enforcement loves to use this term evidence-based. It's sort of a cliché, but it's very odd that I don't see any of that surrounding some of these so-called reforms.

27:00

Speaker 1
Uh, yeah, and there's nothing wrong with questioning it. Just because we've been doing it doesn't make that- doesn't mean it's right either. Uh, Sheriff Mark?

27:06

Speaker 5
Well, uh, I- I'm not gonna argue with the doctor. Uh, I am gonna point out a couple of things that I think are flawed in- in the, uh- in the way that this comes about. In the state of Washington, pointing your gun at somebody is considered a use of force. Um, uh, me personally, shooting somebody is a de-escalation tactic. Uh, so you're exactly right. I think part of the problem is that we no longer have the professionals doing police reform. We have outside agitators, for lack of a better word. Uh, you know, (coughs) um, we j- we just had a convicted killer in the state of Oregon put on the Police Reform Review Board, uh, so those are the kind of people that you're dealing with that are making these decisions on how policing is done instead of, you know, the professionals making those decisions.

28:07

Speaker 5
I liken it all the time to if you had surgeons, if you had somebody that had the wrong leg cut off, if you had somebody that had a loved one that died during surgery, if those are the people that are on your surgery review boards, they have no knowledge of what it takes to- to complete a surgery. They shouldn't be on there. It should be other doctors. It should be peers. Did you follow proper protocols? Um, you know, in the state of Washington, it's time, distance, and cover. That's the mandate, that time, distance, cover. We don't have a choice but to implement the policies that they- that they implement into law, uh, and so instead of the professionals making those decisions, like, good people like Dr. Yates here making those decisions on how we should reform ourselves, you're getting people that have never done the job making the decisions on how we should police.

29:05

Speaker 1
That's hard to argue with. Final words, Dr. Yates?

29:08

Speaker 3
Well, I couldn't have said it any better. I think, uh, the sheriff, as usual, just pinpoints right to the issue. Uh, you know, no profession can survive if the actual experts in the profession aren't part of the decision-making. And so, that's why you've seen sort of this downgrade in law enforcement, and you go, "Well, how do you know that, Travis?" Well, crime is up. Recruiting is down. Retention is down. Morale is down. All the metrics that any business would follow in our profession are- are struggling. And so, uh, thankfully, we have good people like the sheriff and r- other good leaders out there that are gonna bring some common sense to this. Like I said, we should not throw out de-escalation. De-escalation, and by the way, I know this for a fact, I've- I've- I've looked at the last five years of public domain videos, de-escalation works in non-violent, uh, encounters, but in encounters where violence is potential, it's officially never worked in five years.

29:56

Speaker 3
I've watched every public domain video out there, and we keep trying it.

29:59

Speaker 1
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Well, guys, coming up on our third commercial break, stick with us. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about GunLearn at GunLearn.com, and hey, they got something new going on. We all know about the certified firearms specialist, right? They have this program where you can become a certified firearms specialist, but now they've hooked up...... with Smarter Degree, Smarter Degree's university partners. And now that certification that actually Captain Brett Bartlett already has, even if you got it up to five years ago, you can convert that into college credit. So yeah, you get rewarded for that education. And gunlearn.com, of course, is the first and only company to offer a step-by-step program that takes you from your present knowledge level to become a safe, accurate, and competent certified firearms specialist. Now, they've been doing this since 1996.

30:39

Speaker 1
They've taught everything that Leos need to know about firearms and ammunition to all facets of law enforcement. You can start the day with online training, or you can register to attend a live seminar. You can actually get free training for yourself and all the personnel at your agency by hosting a seminar for absolutely no cost. The founder, Dan and Kelly, put this together. You can go to thegunlearn.com to get more information. Again, that's gunlearn.com. And, uh, hey, if you haven't been there before, go to the day. You don't know what you don't know. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com. And my name is Chip The Block, and I'm your host. We're joined by Sheriff Mark Crider from Walla Walla County in Washington State, and also, uh, we've got Dr. Travis Yates, retired police major from the Tulsa Police Department.

31:16

Speaker 1
And, uh, let me just go ahead and just get it out there, uh, Brian Willard has just won a $50 Gulls gift card giveaway, and Brian Willard has also won the two Bealls gift. So we're going to be doing one more Gulls gift card giveaway for $50. So Brian, I've, uh, I've got your information down for those, those two giveaways. And, uh, hey, as of right now, he's won those two. So I got one more $50 Gulls gift card giveaway, uh, that I'm going to be ... So Brian, you're not eligible for that, but you just won a $50 and a $20 giveaway, so congratulations on that. So as long as you guys haven't won in the last 90 days, make sure you enter that contest. And, um, guys, um, I know that we've been talking about, um, some stuff that's been on lawofficer.com, and we've got, um, an update, and we've also got, um, some video components that we're waiting to hold. So are you guys ready to, uh, to move on or... All right. So let's go ahead and, and, and keep this party going.

32:11

Speaker 1
So, um, I, I, you know, I know we haven't had a video yet, but let me just get to this real quick. Um, the postmillennial.com breaking news, FBI raids the home of a Secret Service agent in a tax fraud investigation. So, um, they don't give the name of the agent. It's not hard to find out who it is, though. An alleged, it's an alleged tax and wire fraud case, uh, according to a new report from Real Clear Politics. So it involves millions, millions of dollars in donations as well as grants. The raid took place on or around the day of December the 8th. Multiple sources told the outlet, uh, that in the fraud scheme that is linked to the Secret Service agent, the official accepted donations to a charity that claims to support inner city youth as well as domestic violence victims. The Secret Service agent is on unpaid administrative leave, which is not a good sign, and he's already been stripped of his, of security clearance. That's not good. And, uh, but the agent has not been arrested.

33:07

Speaker 1
In addition to the fraud charges, the Secret Service agent could face internal insider threat allegations over poor judgment, and they talk about it being bigger than the 2012 prostitution scandal, uh, becau- and I, who... I remember that one. Uh, because agents are trained to investigate tax and bank wire fraud. Anyone involved knew what they were doing w- was illegal, according to this. And also this guy, they say that he is on the, the, uh, VP, uh, JD Vance's detail. The charity w- was started, though, prior, uh, to the Donald Trump administration. The agent in question was listed as a founder as well as the chairman of the charity's board of directors, according to Real Clear Politics. The charity on tax documents claims that it provides emergency assistance to survivors of domestic violence, financial literacy, preventing childhood obesity, stuff like that, families affected by HIV AIDS, and then it gives states, Virginia, Maryland, DC, and Georgia.

34:01

Speaker 1
It talks about monies they've taken in initially, over $350,000 in grants and donations, but they paid out 23 grand only in salaries, and then they took in, um, uh, over $800,000, um, in grants, but only dished out $154,000, um, in, uh, in salaries, and then finally, um, nearly a million dollars, but paid out only 267 in salaries. And of course, these 501 (c) (3) s, you've got to... you don't want a surplus of money. You don't want to be... you, you, you want to get rid of the money that you're getting as a 501 (c) (3) , um, I'm looking at the name of the agency right now. A- a- and the guy, um, I tell you, when I was looking at the board of directors, I finally found a w- a, a white, uh, a white person, it was a white female that was on it, and I found an Asian, and, um, but it's not a Black Lives Matter organization, but there were just some, when you're looking at the organization, some clear things that stick out at you when you're looking at it.

34:55

Speaker 1
So I'm curious where this thing is going to go. I'm not going to name the agent because the, uh, other agencies are not, uh, but it's not, it's not looking good. Any, uh, any commentary or surprises on this, guys, before we go to our, our first story with a video component? If, if not, if no one wants to touch it, well, well, Sheriff, go ahead.

35:12

Speaker 5
You're always surprised. I'm always surprised. But, uh, as, as one of my FBI colleagues used to say, "Mark, the only thing that surprises me is that you're still surprised, still."

35:23

Speaker 1
(laughs) Well, you, you have faith in the, in, in, in humankind and, and, and the kind, and the kind part of humankind, because the kindness side of humankind, you know, but, uh, I'm with you. I'm with you, Sheriff. So. All right. Well, look, moving on. Look, there, there is a story with a video com- we have just enough time to cover it with a, with a video component, i- i- involving a hostage. Um, guys, this is, this was, this was just wild. I mean, I had to watch it more than once, I'll be honest with you. So, uh, you can find it at rumble.com, our favorite law enforcement video channel called This is Better. Armed robbery suspect shot by Houston police officer after holding a store employee hostage.

35:58

Speaker 2
(mechanical noise) ... fucking door. Good gosh dammit. (mechanical noise) (gunshot) Let me see your fucking hands. (gunshot) Hold it here, hold it here. Let me see your fucking hands right now. (gunshots) (screams) Shots fired, shots fired. We got a suspect down, we'll suspect down. (screams)

36:21

Speaker 1
... it goes down fast, guys. So the shooting happened around nine o'clock in the morning. Houston police officers responded ch- to a check cashing business in the area. They get alerted to a robbery alarm just after 8:30 a- in the morning. So if the alarm goes off at 8:30 and they don't get there til about nine o'clock, that's a 30-minute response time to an armed robbery. Uh, something's gotta be up with that 'cause the dude's still there, you know? But I'm just pointing that out. So when they get to the scene, the robbery suspect, um, has a female employee at gunpoint in the store. Glass doors, windows, you can see inside. They see him and he comes, he's coming out of the door while we have at least two Houston cops there. He exits, he's holding her as hostage, using her as a human shield. At some point after he exits, um, officers fire at him and they actually hit him.

37:07

Speaker 1
I mean, I don't know how he thought with two officers there in different positions that he could avoid being, you know, shot. But he's got a gun in his hand too, so officers and first r- well, look, they, they leave this out, but he, he starts running away from the officers. He's still armed. They, they took, take him out and yeah, they're shooting him in the back, completely justified, and, um, and he goes down. He survives. I can't believe it. So officers and first responders, they aid them, he goes to the hospital and he's expected to recover. The hostage was not, uh, was not injured. Eh, eh, that happens, I mean, sometimes they do get injured or shot. Some... Thank God that the, the female hostage didn't got, did not get injured. No officers ended up being shot, so we're... everybody's able to, uh, uh, attend Christmas festivities with the families. Uh, the suspect is reportedly a man between the ages of 25 and 30. I don't know why they don't name him.

37:52

Speaker 1
And the officer who shot the suspect is a six-year veteran, uh, with the Houston Police Department. So, um, so there you go. A commentary on the shooting, guys. Um, I- I was, I, I enjoyed watching this. It was, um, you know, gu- the, uh, the bad guy, Travis, had some guts jumping out from behind that glass, you know. He was protected till he came outside. What do you think?

38:12

Speaker 6
Yeah, you know, I mean, eh, we train and train and train, but boy, those instances like that, I'm glad we hired the right people for the right moment, uh, because, uh, a lot of things could have gone the wrong way. Uh, ver- everything was very, very fortunate. But yeah, it's a must-watch video, so when you re- when you bring a show out in a couple of days, people need to watch the edited version of that shit.

38:32

Speaker 1
Yeah, that'll be out tomorrow, nine o'clock on the Rumble channel. Nine o'clock in the morning Eastern time. And, uh, yeah, guys, and this is why scenario-based training... When I say scenario-based training, I'm talking about in your heads. Everywhere you go, whatever you do, you should always be thinking about what will you, you would do in a certain situation. And I can guarantee that you will almost n- never, likely never have a scenario go down as you've envisioned, but hopefully you've thought, um, close enough to the scenario the, where you, you know what to do and you can get the job done, um, safely. Um, Sheriff Kreider.

39:04

Speaker 5
E- every law enforcement executive in the United States should show this to the people that control their budget and tell them, "I don't have enough money for training. And this is why I need more money for training."

39:18

Speaker 1
Yeah. You're ab- you're absolutely right. Um, so anyhow, guys, yeah, watch the video, but this just go... Again, guys, this, these cops, I can just about guarantee you, they've thought about close enough to scenarios like this going on and, and they knew what to do. Um, and just 'cause you have more than one cop doesn't mean that there's not a risk of shooting the innocent, the hostage, or, or the other cop, you know? Because you, you know, there's two of you guys, bad guy and the hostage are between you guys during this ring of fire, you know? So, um, I... and I'm glad they had the guts to shoot the guy in the back as he's running away with a firearm. There goes Snoop, uh, but, you know, as he's running away and, uh... because he's, uh, he's... I mean, could you imagine this guy, he's already grabbed one hostage. Could you imagine him grabbing somebody else or shooting someone else and then it would be the fault of the officers for letting him get away?

40:01

Speaker 1
Um, I- I do want to cover, um, this guy that's running from the police and he kills himself in crashing into a garbage truck during a brief pursuit. And, uh, we got the district attorney, uh, Shea Morrow, they're, they're talking about not filing criminal charges against the officers. All they did was chase this guy. Steve Mecklenburg in Niagara, um, and we got Special Agent Lindy Luer involved and the Wisconsin Department of Justice, but Niagara Police Officer Riana Karn, uh, and, and so, um, I- I'm assuming female, chasing this guy, 75 miles an hour. He'd done some kind of texting or something saying he was gonna, like, drive intentionally and kill himself. Uh, he- he picked, uh, uh, a good enough object to do it, a garbage truck, head-on collision. They show the car afterwards and show it go down. Any commentary on this, guys? Travis?

41:01

Speaker 6
Yeah. I- I sort of knew the answer before I watched the video, but you will not win against a garbage truck.

41:07

Speaker 1
You- you- you don't think? Well, Sheriff Kreider, do you think this bad guy will ever do this again?

41:12

Speaker 5
Yeah. N- absolutely not. It's a great de-escalation technique-

41:16

Speaker 6
(laughs)

41:16

Speaker 5
... is using a garbage truck. Make sure you put that into your data.

41:21

Speaker 6
I will, yeah.

41:22

Speaker 1
Wow. I mean, look, he's not... he has no more Christmases in store for him, but, you know, uh, he's off the street and the American people are safer because of that, so, uh, so you gotta love that part of it. Hey, another great show. Uh, thanks so much for being on the show, Sheriff Mark Kreider and also, uh, Dr. Travis Yates. I do wanna mention our sponsors. You know, The Window Blue, thewindowblue.org, Lieutenant Randy Sutton's 501 (c) (3) . Please support them. They go to great lengths, um, to help out cops that are suffering from things like PTSD and other issues. And, uh, Dr. Yates, if you want more information about him and the greatest police leader, all you have to do is go to LinkedIn in order to get that information. Golis.com, ComplyingTechnologies.com, GunLearn.com, Americare.Life, Safeguard Recruiting, and 2Belles. Thanks, guys. We'll see you back tomorrow, 12 noon Eastern.

42:10

Speaker 1
(instrumental music)