Speaker Identification

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean, Host
The host identifies himself by name and introduces Steve Gregg. He also delivers the opening theological commentary, the live interview questions, and the closing remarks.

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg, Guest
The guest is introduced as Steve Gregg, host of The Narrow Path. His responses focus on Augustine, Calvinism, predestination, election, free will, grace, and human responsibility.

Speaker 3 - Prerecorded Announcer / Promotional Voice(s)
This label is used for station identifications, ministry appeals, church promotions, quotations, and advertisements in which an individual speaker is not clearly identified.

Speaker 4 - Dave Krieger, Prerecorded Testimonial Voice
He identifies himself as Dave Krieger, host of The Krieger Files and station manager of WEAG-FM.

Speaker 5 - Alex Newman, Prerecorded Promotional Voice
He identifies himself during the Liberty Sentinel advertisement.

Speaker 6 - Sam, Prerecorded Testimonial Voice
He identifies himself as Sam and states that he is Bradlee Dean's son. His surname is not stated in the transcript.

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Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

Unscriptural free-will decisions for Christ. What fruit are these types of people bringing forth?

Charles Haddon Spurgeon rightly said, "Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven." When we look to the great reformer Martin Luther, he said, "Free will without God's grace is not free at all, but is the prisoner and bondslave of evil, since it cannot turn itself to good."

Recently, it was reported that thousands made decisions for Christ through a well-known evangelist's "God Loves You Tour," held with top Christian artists. It was reported that more than 56,000 people attended the free outdoor events along Route 66, beginning in Chicago and ending in Los Angeles. The evangelist, who has shared the gospel at nearly 200 evangelistic events worldwide, quoted Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any should boast."

But notice what this evangelist stated at the end of the article in reference to Ephesians 2:8-9. Let me add verse 10 concerning being empowered by that grace and what it produces: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

If we are born of the Spirit of God, then we will do what the Spirit leads us to do, according to Romans 8:14. Free will, however, to make decisions for Christ - I cannot find that in Scripture. Friends, we are hearing much of this today, but I ask: free will to do what? To make decisions for Christ?

We have heard much of this from the hirelings across this country for decades. How many have made decisions for Christ out of their free will, yet have instead lived for the things of the flesh, disobeying the things of the Spirit?

King David wrote in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." How does the carnal man choose to serve a spiritual God if we have a free will? I am here to tell you that he cannot.

Paul wrote in Romans 7:18, "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not." Was it not Jesus who said in John 3:5-6, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"? Then He said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Throughout Scripture, you will find that when the Lord called people, He also led them or appeared unto them.

Remember what Charles Spurgeon rightly said: "Once there was free will in paradise, and a terrible mess free will made there, for it spoiled all paradise and turned Adam out of the garden. Free will was once in heaven, but it turned the glorious archangel out, and a third part of the stars of heaven fell into the abyss."

Spurgeon continued, "I want nothing to do with free will, but I will try to see whether I have a free will within. If I find I have, I have very free will to do evil, but very poor will to do that which is good."

Friends, you cannot, by free will, live for Christ through making decisions to be born again without the Holy Ghost bringing you to godly repentance. I am commanded by God to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling, as found in Philippians 2:12. But I cannot add one jot or one tittle to my growth in Christ except by the Holy Ghost, through regeneration and renewal.

Titus 3:5 tells us, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Again, Martin Luther, the great reformer, comes to my aid. He said, "Mankind has a free will, but it is free to milk cows and to build houses, nothing more." He is exactly right. Much of what is seen today consists of man-made conversions. What fruit has that brought forth? I answer: more sons and daughters of hell than ever before.

Let us now go to the Great Awakening preacher George Whitefield, weighing genuine converts against false, man-made converts. He said, "Now I wait a little and see if people bring forth fruit. If there are so many blossoms which March winds blow away, I cannot believe that they are converts until I see the fruit brought forth."

Today, man is often taught through an emotional response: "God loves you." But what fruit follows?

The revolutionary, soldier, judge, legislator, educator, and schoolmaster to America, Noah Webster, said: "The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles. This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions of government. The moral principles and precepts found in Scripture ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws."

Webster further argued that vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war arise when people disregard biblical precepts.

He also said citizens should understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament and the Christian religion.

Speaker 3 - Prerecorded Announcer / Promotional Voice:

The Sons of Liberty is a politically neutral organization. We believe that the Christian ethic provided the principles on which this nation was founded. It is our belief that these principles provide not only the foundation and framework for American government, but are also essential to the maintenance of a fair and just society. All program content is based on a Christian biblical worldview.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

One of you said to me recently that we should not rock the boat. Well, ladies and gentlemen, I want to tell you that I am a boat rocker.

Hello, friends, as well as a few enemies, scoffers, atheists, skeptics, lunatics, weirdos, assorted bad guys, and, of course, all of you good guys and girls out there. Welcome to The Sons of Liberty. You are here with yours truly, Mr. Bradlee Dean.

Folks, you have been given a treat today. You truly have. We have our friend Steve Gregg joining us in about 13 minutes. He does a Bible radio program across the country.

Before I start rocking the show, let me set this up. You can check us out online at SonsOfLibertyMedia.com. We are on the top-left side of that page. You can also go to BeforeItsNews.com and find us on the top-left side of that page.

Because we have a guest today, you can leave a comment in the live chat on one of our social-media livestreams, or you can call with a Bible question. The number is 281-845-4704. Again, 281-845-4704.

If this is your first time listening to SonsOfLibertyRadio.com, remember that this is the radio show where we think for ourselves and make no other person the measure of our conduct. Why is that, friends? Because it is a terrible place to be when your brains are in someone else's head.

We follow Christ here. John 14:6 - forgive me, not John 14:16 - tells us that He is the way, the truth, and the life. We also understand that there is only one name under heaven whereby men might be saved, and His name is Jesus Christ, according to Acts 4:12.

Paul, who was responsible for penning much of the New Testament by the inspiration and leading of the Holy Ghost, said in 1 Corinthians 11:1, "Follow me, as I follow Christ." Period. As our forefathers rightly said, "There is nothing stable but Heaven and the Constitution." That was Buchanan. Andrew Jackson also rightly said, "The Bible is the rock upon which our Republic rests."

I need to get into this so we can bring Steve on in about 12 minutes. About a week and a half ago, one of my friends sent me something. I assume it was in response to a reference I had made to John Calvin, Augustine, Martin Luther, R.C. Sproul, or another theologian. I do not know exactly which one.

He sent me an audio-video debate in which someone was disputing Calvinism. First, I am not a Calvinist. I want you to understand that. I was making reference to John Calvin, who is responsible for Calvinism.

Steve was one of the participants in the debate. I thought, "What a super-cool demeanor this guy has." He was a really nice man in the way he debated. I do not know that I agreed with everything, but I also do not know that we disagree on everything, because these topics can become very difficult: predestination, election, and, let us add free will to the discussion.

We will bring him on shortly and address these topics. Before we do, I want to make sure you understand the question: Was John Calvin crucified for you? Was John Wesley crucified for you? Was John Knox - who is my favorite, by the way - crucified for you? Was Martin Luther crucified for you? No.

It is interesting that when you look at godly men such as John Calvin, you have Calvinism among Presbyterians. You have John Wesley and the Wesleyans. You have John Smyth associated with the Baptists. You have Martin Luther and the Lutherans. It goes on and on.

That is the problem. First Corinthians 1:10 tells us that we are all supposed to have the same mind and the same judgment. I also think of Ephesians 4, which speaks of one Lord, one faith, one God, and one Spirit.

Yet I look around and ask, why do we have approximately 45,000 denominations? That is the most recent number I have heard concerning divisions within the Christian community. I will tell you why we have them: people left Christ for men.

That is not what I want to do today. I do not want to confuse anyone. I want to clear away the confusion. I want your eye to be single and fixed on the Lord, because He is the one we follow, regardless of what Steve and I discuss. Hopefully, the Holy Ghost will use this conversation to bring clarity to all of us, including Steve and me.

These men were following Christ. They did not want denominations, but other men followed them, created denominations, and brought schism into the body. That is not what we want.

These men were magnifying the revelation given to them by the Spirit of God concerning their callings, as described in Ephesians 4:11. As they followed Christ - the one name under heaven whereby men might be saved - carnal people failed to understand. In their carnality, they began following the men rather than the Christ who was crucified on their behalf and whom those men were preaching.

What was the result? Division and contention. Read 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. No wonder there are said to be 45,000 denominations. My goodness.

That is also why, in politics, you have more than 101 party affiliations. I believe every one of them is unconstitutional because we are a constitutional republic under Article IV, Section 4. We are a governmental institution established by God, as discussed in Exodus 18:21 and 18:25. One God. Look at your state preambles.

When you look at Scripture, Paul wrote under the Spirit's influence and leading. Romans 8:14 addresses that. First Corinthians 1:10-16 says:

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

"I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius, lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas. Besides, I know not whether I baptized any other."

Friends, I want to make it clear that when we bring our friend Steve Gregg on, we are going to hold to the Word of God, not to the person you happen to like better. The Word of God is the safest place to be, and that is where we want to remain: on the straight and narrow.

A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. Let not that man think he will receive anything from the Lord. Let us not be double-minded. Let us be single-minded by holding to who we are in Christ, and in Him alone.

Folks, we are going to take a hard break. Again, you can call in. There are other people like us out here.

Speaker 3 - Prerecorded Announcer / Promotional Voice:

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Speaker 3 - Prerecorded Announcer / Promotional Voice:

At The Sons of Liberty, we are in the trenches doing what it takes to protect our liberty. If you are already supporting our work as a son or daughter of liberty, we cannot thank you enough.

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Speaker 3 - Prerecorded Announcer / Promotional Voice:

Do you not have a place to go to church on Sunday? Then join The Sons of Liberty and Bradlee Dean.

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Speaker 4 - Dave Krieger:

This is Dave Krieger, host of The Krieger Files and station manager of WEAG-FM, serving Starke, Florida, and surrounding areas.

Bradlee Dean and The Sons of Liberty Radio are regular features on this radio station. Bradlee's ministry has touched tens of thousands of people who need to know the truth, know the Father, and know our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. For that, and for Bradlee Dean, we are thankful. Keep up the Lord's work, my friend.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

Welcome back to The Sons of Liberty, folks. I honestly do not even know where to start, but I want to give you this quickly.

Some people are going to understand this conversation, and some are not. Some will be lost and say, "This is confusing to me." One is the Spirit and one is the flesh. John 3:6 tells us, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Before we bring Steve on, let me tell you a story. There was a missionary from the United States, from Wisconsin, who, back in the middle of the 1700s, was sent to Africa. After residing there for some time, he had the opportunity to meet the country's king at the king's invitation.

After they introduced themselves, the king asked what it was like in the United States during the country's early years. The missionary replied that the weather sometimes became so cold that water froze and he could walk on it.

The king's countenance changed from interest to anger. He told the missionary that if he lied to him again, he would have him executed.

What is the moral of the story? Just because you have never experienced the Spirit of God in His function and presence does not mean it is not real, any more than the king's inability to understand that a person could walk on frozen water in Wisconsin meant frozen water was not real.

Some people will understand, and some will not. That does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. We want to chew the meat and spit out the bones, so to speak.

We are going to bring on our friend Steve Gregg. Steve is the host of a daily radio broadcast called The Narrow Path. It is a call-in program with a Bible question-and-answer format. It has been broadcasting since 1997 and is currently heard on approximately 100 radio stations nationwide.

Steve has also lectured on biblical subjects at colleges, seminaries, conferences, and many other venues. More than 1,500 of his lectures and debates are posted on YouTube and at his ministry website. I also understand that he has a youth ministry, which is really cool.

Without further ado, Steve, I want to welcome you to The Sons of Liberty. I have been anticipating having you on for about a week, and I am happy to have you. Welcome.

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

Thank you. It is good to be here.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

You are breaking up badly, Steve.

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

That is not good. Is this a little better?

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

Yes. I have to tell you, Steve and I worked for about 45 minutes trying to connect through Zoom earlier. There was one blockade after another impediment, and then another blockade. It was like, "How is this going to work?" No surprise - there is spiritual warfare that we are enduring here.

Again, welcome, Steve. I appreciate you.

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

I have three bars now. Is that good enough?

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

I can hear you clearly, but it comes in and out at will - speaking of which.

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

Oh, no.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

Exactly. Let us give it a run.

Steve, I do not know whether you heard me earlier, but someone sent me a video of you debating Calvinism. After listening, I honestly liked your demeanor. I liked the way you came across and answered questions.

The other participants were beating up on John Calvin during that discussion. Then, ironically - and I say "ironically" facetiously - the very next day, I received another anti-Calvinism piece from another broadcaster.

It came from one of my big brothers in the faith. He told me, "Your preaching made me angry the other day," because I had brought up John Calvin. Apparently, I was discussing predestination, election, free will, or perhaps all three.

I told him, "I will try to get Steve on the show," and now, lo and behold, we have you.

Steve, I do not know where to start, but perhaps we can begin with Calvinism and the debates you have had concerning John Calvin. What is your understanding of what John Calvin taught in relation to predestination, election, and free will?

We are not going to limit this to John Calvin. We also have Augustine, Martin Luther, and many others. What is your take? I know you have much to say on the subject.

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

Both Martin Luther and John Calvin were Augustinian theologians. Augustine was probably the most influential theologian in the world around the fourth and fifth centuries. Calvin was a scholar of Augustine, and Luther was an Augustinian monk.

These men started the Reformation, so Augustine's views greatly colored the Reformation. Ironically, Augustine is considered both the father of the Reformation and the father of Roman Catholicism. Historically, Augustine directed the church toward the idea that the Roman bishop was the pope over all the bishops. In that sense, he is considered the father of both Roman Catholicism and the Reformation.

As for my disagreements with them, I take a more primitive, pre-Augustinian approach. The church fathers before Augustine held views that were quite different from those he introduced.

Before Augustine was a Christian, he was a philosopher associated with Manichaeism. When he became a Christian, he renounced Manichaeism. Later in life, however, during his discussions and debates with a man named Pelagius, Augustine revived some of his Manichaean sympathies.

Pelagius allegedly did not believe that people needed the grace of God in order to choose to do right. He believed that man did not have a fallen nature and that human free will alone was enough to choose a righteous life.

Augustine strongly opposed that. He made it clear that the grace of God undergirds everything good anyone does. Their debate went on for a long time, and they became increasingly polarized. Augustine moved further and further away from Pelagius, to the point where I believe he went beyond what Scripture itself teaches.

I agree that no one can receive Christ without the prevenient grace of God. Jesus said, "No man can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." Even Arminians and non-Calvinists believe that God's prevenient grace is required to enable anyone to come to Christ.

Augustine, however, elevated or introduced a particular idea about the sovereignty of God. God's sovereignty was not a new idea. It is biblical. God is sovereign.

The word "sovereign" simply means that God has absolute authority. A king is sovereign in his domain: he can make decisions without checking with anyone else. He has the authority to make decisions unilaterally, as he wishes. That is what sovereign means.

Augustine added the idea that God is not only authoritative but meticulously involved in everything that happens - that nothing happens except what God decrees will happen. That idea became prominent in Calvin's later writings: everything that happens is decreed by God.

R.C. Sproul would say that if there is one molecule or one atom in the universe that is not following God's decreed course, then God is not God and is not sovereign.

Here is where the problem lies. Before Augustine, all Christians knew that God was sovereign. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. He made everything. He has all rights and can do whatever He wants. But they did not believe that God had foreordained every event or decreed everything that happens.

The doctrine that God decrees everything that happens is called meticulous providence, meaning God is providentially and meticulously involved in everything.

Calvinists, and Augustine as well, taught that Adam sinned because God decreed that he inevitably would. In that view, Adam did not have free choice even before the Fall. Everything happens because God decreed it.

God also decrees, according to this position, who will turn to Him and who will not. According to Calvin, when every man or woman is born, that person is already determined to be lost or saved. If a person is predetermined to be saved, there is no way that person will not be saved. If a person is decreed to be lost, there is no way that person will not be lost -

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

I have a hard break coming up. Hold that thought for me, please.

Folks, go to SonsOfLibertyRadio.com and SonsOfLibertyMedia.com. I have much I want to return to. The call-in number is 281-845-4704. We will be right back.

Speaker 5 - Alex Newman:

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Speaker 3 - Prerecorded Announcer / Promotional Voice:

John G. Lake rightly posed a question to the modern church: "Can you find anywhere in the Scriptures that the gifts of the Holy Ghost were withdrawn from the Church of Christ?" Neither can we.

That is why you should join us every Sunday at SonsOfLibertyMedia.com. Go to the top-left side of the page for church at 9:00 a.m. Central Standard Time every Sunday. Again, that is SonsOfLibertyMedia.com, at the top-left side of the page, every Sunday at 9:00 a.m. Central Standard Time.

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Speaker 3 - Prerecorded Announcer / Promotional Voice:

A quotation attributed in the program to Robert F. Kennedy warns that when people ignore lawlessness, tolerate wrongdoing, turn away from corruption, or fail to speak because they are busy or afraid, they strike a blow against freedom, decency, and justice.

A second quotation, attributed to Ronald Reagan, states that freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It is not passed to children through the bloodstream; it must be fought for, protected, and handed on, or future generations may hear only stories of what it was once like to live in a free United States.

A quotation attributed to Martin Luther says, "When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hold on."

Speaker 3 - Prerecorded Announcer / Promotional Voice:

At The Sons of Liberty, we are in the trenches doing what it takes to protect our liberty. If you are already supporting our work as a son or daughter of liberty, we cannot thank you enough.

Everything we do is made possible by the generosity of faithful supporters like you. Together, we are positively affecting the future of this country that we all appreciate so much.

If you have not yet partnered with us financially, please consider becoming a son or daughter of liberty today. Call 1-866-233-0747 or go online to SonsOfLibertyRadio.com.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

Welcome back to The Sons of Liberty. Visit SonsOfLibertyMedia.com and SonsOfLibertyRadio.com. That is who we are and what we have been doing for the last 31 years.

Also check us out at BeforeItsNews.com. If you want to call in, you will have to hold because we have our friend Steve Gregg with us right now. The number is 281-845-4704.

Steve, I have you for only two more segments, and you have already said a mouthful. Please pick up your thought and finish it. I would love to respond scripturally to much of what you have highlighted. The floor is yours, my friend.

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

You asked at the beginning about predestination, election, and free will. I will touch on those.

According to Calvinism, which is Augustinianism, predestination refers to individuals being predestined either to be saved or to be lost.

Paul uses the language of predestination in two places: Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1, including verses 5 and 11. He does not use it to say that particular individuals are predestined to become Christians or predestined not to become Christians.

Rather, he says that God has predestined those who are Christians to experience a certain destiny. He is very clear in Romans 8:29: "Whom He foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son."

Those whom God foreknew have a destination. God predestined something that will happen to those of us who are Christians: Christians will someday be conformed to the image of His Son.

First John 3:2 says that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. That is our destiny. The destiny of the believing community is to become like Jesus. God has predestined that believers - the collective body of believers, whoever they are - will someday be made like Jesus.

That is the sense in which predestination is used of Christians in the Bible. There are only a couple of places in the Bible where the term is used that way.

Election is used differently. Election is also corporate in the sense that Christ is elect. He has a special, chosen status with God like no one else.

If we are believers, then we are in Christ. Ephesians 1:4 says God elected us in Christ. Because we are in Christ, we have died with Christ, risen with Christ, and are seated with Christ in heavenly places. We are elect in Him.

The things that are true of Him are imputed to us, including His election. Collectively, those who are in Christ, the members of His body, are part of the Elect One. We are elect in Christ because Christ is elect.

Ephesians 1:4 does not say that God elected us to be in Christ. It says He elected us in Christ. Because we are in Christ, we have Christ's status as the Elect One.

If Calvin's view were Paul's view, I think Paul would have said that God elected us to be in Christ, but that is not what Paul said. It is a different way of looking at the subject, in my mind.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

So election is a category. All who believe in Christ are in that category, and they are the elect.

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

Right. It is not talking about choosing unbelievers to become believers. That is not what those passages say. This is different from the Calvinist view.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

Let me enter the free-will discussion, because you are our guest and I want to give you as much time as possible.

How would you relate this to what I have noticed when men are called by God? I will start in the New Testament with John 21, where Peter was asked by the Lord, "Do you love Me?" Peter said, "You know that I love You, Lord." Jesus said, "Feed My sheep."

The Lord asked him a second time, "Peter, do you love Me?" and told him, "Feed My lambs." A third time He asked, "Do you love Me?" Peter answered, "Yes, Lord. You know that I love You." Jesus told him, "Feed My sheep."

The Bible says that when Peter was young, he went wherever he wanted to go, but when he was old, another would gird him and take him where he did not want to go.

Hold that thought. I also think of Paul, who was used to write a large portion of the New Testament. Consider the road to Damascus in Acts 9. Holding to Scripture, you do not hear Paul saying, "I chose Jesus by my own free will while I was on the road to Damascus."

You can also go back to Moses. When you look at men of God, they often found fault with themselves. Moses said that he was not worthy and that he had a speech impediment. I think of Gideon and Saul. When these men were called by God, they found or tried to find excuses for why they could not serve Him.

What I see in the American church is too many people who are self-assertive and include themselves among Christians. Yet, when we look at America today, the culture is the church's report card.

The number I have, Steve, is that 81 percent of Americans call themselves Christians. But they are not bearing fruit unto Christ by the Spirit of God. They are bearing fruit unto the devil through the works of the flesh.

I know I have said two or three things here, but I have a hard time when I hear people speaking against predestination. The church often says, "We know what the end of the Book says."

Wait a second. Through the gift of prophecy, the Lord shows that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. If we know the end of the Book, something is predestined because the Lord foreknows what He is going to do and how He will do it.

There is much in what you are saying. Concerning election, I think of a quotation from John Calvin that I have before me. He said, "We did not first choose Him," which lines up with John 15, where Jesus said, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you." That seems plain and simple.

Calvin continued that God first chose us, not because He foresaw that we would believe, but so that we would believe. In that view, election is the cause of faith, not its result. He is addressing both predestination and election.

In what we have discussed so far, I can bring scriptural answers to those questions. I also know firsthand through my testimony that I am not man-made. Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith.

I had nothing within myself that would cause Him to choose me to do this work, except, perhaps, that nobody else would do it - and that is my carnal mind speaking.

I am among the weak things of the world and the foolish things of the world that confound the wise. That is the safest place for me to be. I am among the poor of the world, destitute apart from the righteousness of Christ. My life depends on Him, and I can tell you that I had nothing to do with creating that righteousness.

As you were speaking about Pelagianism, I can say there was nothing I did to push, provoke, or induce the Lord to pick me for His purposes. I knew I was a sinner and deserved the hell that was coming to me. He decided to do something for me out of mercy and grace that I did not deserve.

I want to make that clear concerning the points you have made. Steve, please add to it. My friend, this is your show.

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

I agree with the things you said, but when we speak about choosing, we are talking about different kinds of choosing.

The choosing of Moses, Paul, the apostles in John 15, and Gideon are what we might call vocational choices. God chose people for certain jobs. He chose them to be prophets, apostles, or leaders in special ways. That is not the same as choosing them to be saved.

Many people are saved whom God never chose in the distinctive way He chose the apostles or Moses. Within the Christian body, God chooses to give special callings and gifts to different people.

When Jesus said, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you," He was speaking to the twelve apostles. He said, in effect, "I chose and ordained you to go forth and bring much fruit because I called you to your ministry."

That is different from the question of whether, when Jesus told Matthew to follow Him, Matthew had to decide whether he would obey. Those are different issues.

As far as the end of the world is concerned, God does have a plan. He is working His plan, and He has determined what He is going to do in the end and how it will turn out.

That does not answer the question of whether He has determined everything that everyone will do on a daily basis.

It is like a chess master who can play a room full of novices. He does not know which moves they will make, and he does not make those moves for them. But he will still beat them because he is the better player. He can bring his plan to completion no matter how many free choices the individuals playing against him make.

God is smarter than everyone combined. He has a plan. He made the world for a purpose, He is working His plan, and His plan will succeed. I agree with those things.

As far as free will is concerned, even Calvinists acknowledge that people have free will in the sense that we choose whom to marry and whether to do a good or bad thing on a given day.

They would say, "Yes, that is true, but we cannot choose to become Christians." That is strange, because it would mean God gave us free will to make all the choices that do not matter as much, but not the choice that matters most -

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

I have another hard break. Steve, hold with me, please.

I remember Spurgeon saying, "When my will is the Lord's will, then I will have a free will." I want to return to that.

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Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

Welcome back to The Sons of Liberty. We have our friend Steve Gregg here.

Steve, would you give our listeners your website and contact information?

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

My website is TheNarrowPath.com. Again, that is TheNarrowPath.com.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

To address some of the points you are making, I think of 1 Peter 3, where only eight souls were saved. I also think of Matthew 7, where Jesus said the way is straight, narrow, and difficult.

Elsewhere in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, He speaks about striving. He also says that some who want to enter will be rejected.

How would you merge or integrate those passages with what you are explaining so we can understand the issue clearly?

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

When we speak about God's sovereignty, especially the Calvinistic idea that God's sovereignty means He ordains everything that happens, it follows that everything God wants is going to happen regardless. In that view, His will would be the only will in the universe.

When Jesus said, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate," why would I have to do that if God had already ordained whether I would enter? If God had already determined the outcome, why would I have to strive?

When Jesus said many would want to enter but would not be able, it is clear that they waited too long. To put it bluntly, "You snooze, you lose." If you do not follow Christ in this life, you will not be able to enter in the next.

The Bible is clear that God's will is not the only will. Second Peter 3:9 says God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Yet some do perish, and not all come to repentance. Therefore, God's will is not always done.

Luke 7:30 tells us that the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves by not being baptized by John the Baptist. That means it was God's will for them to be baptized by John, but they did not do it because they rejected God's will for themselves.

There are many passages like that. God holds us responsible for doing wrong as though we could have done better.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

Steve, do you think some people become confused when dealing with correction, reproof, instruction in righteousness, and the Spirit's leading?

When we walk the straight and narrow path, it is the Spirit who leads us to remain there. Romans 8:14 says the Spirit of God leads us. We are also told to strive and to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

I believe that when we hunger and thirst for righteousness, the Spirit is working that hunger in us, and we will be filled.

On a personal level, I am always hungry and always feeding on the Bread of Life, as spoken of in John 6:35, because my spiritual life depends upon it. That is the Spirit leading me.

Let me throw one more thing at you, because I love this conversation.

I think of Paul in Romans 7, where he said, "If, then, I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now, then, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

He also said, "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not."

Is there a carnal disposition and a spiritual disposition? I think of Deuteronomy 30:19 and Romans 6:16, which says, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Immediately afterward, Paul speaks about obeying that form of doctrine. I believe that is the leading of the Spirit, keeping us on the straight and narrow and bringing us into the position where we are supposed to be.

It is as though Paul is saying, "Whenever I look to myself, I am in trouble. But when I look to Christ crucified, there is my salvation."

How can I not be saved as long as my eye is fixed on Him? What do you say?

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

I agree with most of what you are saying.

When Paul said he could not do what he wanted to do, he made it clear that he wanted to do the right thing, but something called the flesh interfered with that.

He was not saying that his disposition was to sin. His disposition was to do the right thing. He said, in effect, "With my mind, I agree with the law of God, but I find another law in my members that brings me into bondage to sin and death."

The problem is in the flesh. In his mind, he can choose what is right. That is the point. A person can choose to call out to God and say, "Help me."

In the next chapter, Romans 8, Paul says that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made him free from the law of sin and death. He says that those who walk according to the Spirit fulfill the righteous requirement of the law.

The Spirit of God allows us to overcome the flesh, but we have to want that. That is why we are told to walk in the Spirit and be filled with the Spirit.

This is our responsibility. It does not simply happen because we wake up in the morning. We have a will. We can choose to walk in the Spirit, or we can choose not to do so. If we walk in the Spirit, we find that we have power over the flesh.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

It is interesting that you said that. You were talking about Spurgeon. I know you respect Spurgeon, but you believe Calvinism was one of his blind spots.

We are not promoting Calvinism. We are highlighting predestination, election, and free will through the views of these theologians.

Spurgeon did say something that is absolutely true in my life. I am speaking from testimony: "When my will is His will, then I will have my will, but not until then."

I concur with that completely. Whenever I try to step outside His will, I receive chastisements and afflictions so that I might learn His statutes.

Steve, this is obviously a continuing work of the Spirit of God as we grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I want to reach a conclusion because it seems, in some ways, that we are saying the same thing. This subject gets hairy, and I want the hair combed before we end the show. We have about three minutes.

How do we distinguish predestination and election from Calvinism? How do we understand them the way Scripture presents them? That is the best way I can ask it.

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

Calvinism contains a particular point that I believe Christians do not need to affirm.

All Christians agree that God has a plan, that He makes choices, that He will determine how history ends, and that He will determine what He does with mankind.

What most Christians believed before Augustine, and what I believe Scripture teaches, is that God made people responsible. You cannot be responsible if you have no ability to make choices.

God could make all our choices for us and then punish us for the bad ones. He is God and can do what He wants. But the Bible never says He does that.

The Bible blames us for making bad choices because it assumes we could and should have done better. That is why it pleases God when someone trusts Him.

In the Bible, Jesus sometimes marveled at the faith of the centurion or the faith of the woman whose child had a demon. He marveled at their faith. He did not simply give them that faith in the deterministic sense. They had faith, and He was pleased with it.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

How does that line up with Scripture saying that He is the author and finisher of our faith, in Hebrews 12:2? You just said they already had faith.

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

They came to faith because God allows everyone to believe. He made people capable of choosing to believe.

People believe because God gives them good reasons and incentives to do so. The woman and the centurion had heard about Jesus. They knew what He had done, and they chose to believe that He could help them in their situations. Faith is not based on nothing.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

Would that not be semi-Pelagianism, based on what you just stated?

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

No, I do not think so. It is the way the early Christians believed before Augustine.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

All right, Steve. We have to call it. It is the end of the show.

I would love to do this again. I love this conversation, the way you communicate, your personality, and the way you come across.

Listen, I am a contender and a fighter, while you are a teacher. To me, everything can look like a nail. Believe me.

I would love to have you on the show again. I respect you and your opinions. Let us do this again.

Folks, we have been speaking with Steve Gregg.

Speaker 2 - Steve Gregg:

Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 1 - Bradlee Dean:

Thank you for joining us, friends. I hope this answered many questions. If it did not, perhaps it raised a few more. Love you. Bye.