What the Government Knows About UAPs: Eric Davis on Disclosure, Crash Retrievals, NHI and Skinwalker Ranch

Speaker Identification

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld

The host identifies himself near the beginning: “Welcome to the program. I’m Alan Steinfeld.” He conducts the interview, asks the questions, introduces clips, and closes the conversation.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis

Alan Steinfeld introduces Dr. Eric Davis as his guest and describes him as a theoretical physicist with prior work connected to government UAP programs. Davis gives the extended answers about disclosure, classified briefings, crash-retrieval claims, propulsion theory, NHI, Skinwalker Ranch, and related subjects.

Speaker 3 – Inserted Hearing / Event Clip

A short inserted recording is introduced by Alan Steinfeld as Eric Davis speaking at a House Oversight-related public question-and-answer event. The automated transcription of the clip is substantially garbled, but the surrounding discussion makes clear that the topic is reported categories of non-human beings.

Speaker 4 – Prerecorded Closing Voice / Song

After the interview ends, the transcript contains a short poetic closing passage beginning with “Fingerprints on the soul.” It is separate from the interview and is treated as a prerecorded outro.

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Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

We came to an agreement that what should be released easily and rapidly, without any holdup or speed bumps, should be the fact that UAP are here. They’ve been here for thousands of years. They’ve been interacting with the human race for thousands of years, probably tens of thousands of years, and they’re here.

The government should be transparent about that. The government should be transparent that they’ve recovered those craft, and they’ve recovered those craft worldwide, not just in the United States. It’s worldwide, so they should acknowledge that.

They should acknowledge even that we’ve been in contact with the NHIs, most likely through official government channels that have been kept very, very secret—probably far more secret than even the existence of the NHI crash recoveries during the previous 80 years.

That should be acknowledged. That should be told to the people of America.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Welcome to the program. I’m Alan Steinfeld. I’m very happy to have one of the inside insiders in this whole field of disclosure—UFOs, what’s happening with the government, what’s happening with private industry, and what’s happening with the phenomenon itself.

No one that I’ve been aware of—and there might be somebody—has more information, maybe more inside information, than Dr. Eric Davis.

Here are a few more details about Eric Davis’s insider knowledge. He’s an advanced theoretical physicist and was a consultant to the Pentagon’s AATIP [acronym should be verified] UFO program. He authored a paper called Traversable Wormholes, Stargates, and Negative Energy [exact title should be verified] for the Defense Intelligence community.

He was also mentioned in a very public New York Times article by Ralph Blumenthal and Leslie Kean in July 2020, when he gave a classified briefing concerning what was described as off-world vehicles not made on this earth.

In congressional settings, Davis has discussed different reported types of non-human beings. He is an incredible resource of knowledge, especially as disclosure progresses.

Thank you, Eric Davis, for being here today.

The first thing I want to ask you is about NDAs. I assume, and I’ve heard, that you’re under many NDAs. What do you think about what has just come out concerning the possibility of lifting NDAs for people like you by the president or some other commission?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

You have the counterintelligence gatekeepers. Their job is to protect those government secrets, and in their role they don’t want the secrets exposed because that’s not their philosophy.

Remember, their philosophy is not disclosure. Disclosure is a social thing. It’s a cultural thing that’s going on. It is not a principle of counterintelligence acting to protect national-security secrets.

They don’t have that frame of mind because counterintelligence guys are actually law enforcement. Even though the word “intelligence” is in that name, they are not part of the intelligence community in that sense. They are part of the law-enforcement community, and they’re thinking in terms of law-enforcement actions to protect those secrets.

The last thing they’re going to do is allow some assistants to the president, who aren’t elected or nominated and confirmed by the Senate, to push on them to open up these secrets.

There’s going to have to be a lot more work done. I think the president can do something with the NDAs, but you’re going to get resistance from the counterintelligence gatekeepers in the government.

More importantly, the biggest resistance is coming from the companies. They don’t want their intellectual property or proprietary information that they developed over the crash-retrieval programs to become public information.

What should be released easily and rapidly, without any holdup or speed bumps, should be the fact that UAP are here. They’ve been here for thousands of years. They’ve been interacting with the human race for thousands of years, probably tens of thousands of years.

There is documented history, according to a book called Wonders in the Sky [author uncertain], which documents accounts from records in the Vatican Library and elsewhere. That kind of thing should come out.

The American public should be confronted with what I believe is the truth: that there is a non-human intelligence in control of a very exotic, very advanced type of transmedium craft technology—space, atmosphere, and sea.

They’re here. The government should be transparent about that.

The government should be transparent that they’ve recovered these craft worldwide, not just in the United States. It’s worldwide.

They should also acknowledge that we’ve been in contact with NHIs, most likely through official government channels that have been kept very, very secret—probably far more secret than even the existence of NHI crash recoveries or UAP craft recoveries during the previous 80 years.

That should be acknowledged. That should be told to the world and to the people of America.

But when it comes to talking about derivative information from the recovered craft, I’m still being told that it’s not yet fully understood.

That type of technical information—such as the materials those craft are constructed from, possible control systems, how they’re propelled, or any weapons they might possess—should not be declassified and released into the public domain.

That’s going to tip off our foreign adversaries. When they’re tipped off that we’re in possession of stuff that could potentially turn into a game-changing weapon for us in the future, then they’re going to throw all the money they can muster at conducting espionage against those companies and personnel working for those companies to get access to that knowledge and steal it.

China, for example, is very good at stealing American inventions, innovations, practices, technologies, methodologies, and everything else. You don’t want China coming after us for that. They could do it through computer systems as well as through infiltrators or spies.

So that’s my take on it so far.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

I love it, because you’re saying what a lot of people want to hear—that these things should be released.

There’s no reason why, at least on the basic level, this shouldn’t come out. What’s the big deal about aliens if we’re not giving away technical secrets?

What do you think the insiders are afraid of?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

The insiders, I would say, are at the government level. I’m not talking about the corporate insiders. Like I said, those guys are afraid of giving up whatever technical information they’ve gleaned from recovered UAP craft. That’s obvious. That’s a technical question.

As far as the government insiders, they’re not willing to admit that we don’t have any weaponry or technology to go up against UAP craft when they come in and conduct surveillance or enter areas involving U.S. military equities.

That’s a real problem.

We had that problem last winter with the drones in New Jersey. Can we distinguish between real UAP and man-made drones of foreign origin, or man-made drones of obvious domestic or hobbyist origin?

In fact, at least one of them was an admitted military contractor—a civilian contractor who developed a drone for the U.S. military.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

They don’t just fly around randomly. Since 1967, with Malmstrom and Robert Salas coming forward, there’s been interference with military sites. That’s not a secret.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

That’s right. It’s not a secret to us, but the government doesn’t want to acknowledge it.

They’re afraid the taxpayer is going to look at them and say, “You have a roughly one-and-a-half-trillion-dollar fiscal-year defense budget proposal, and if we’re going to spend that kind of money, why can’t you do anything about these non-human or NHI craft coming into our military airspace and nuclear airspace?”

They don’t want to look like clowns by admitting, “We can’t do anything about it.”

That’s a pride thing, and it also rises to the level of being politically hot.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

That’s true. Why are we spending trillions of dollars on defense if we’re defenseless against something?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

Exactly. And we are. We are defenseless against it.

The history goes back to the first Project Blue Book investigations of the Northern Tier Strategic Air Command sites, which The Age of Disclosure documentary talked about.

There was another wave in about 1975 in Montana and adjacent states that had Minuteman ICBM silos—the Northern Tier SAC sites, Strategic Air Command strategic missile-launch sites.

They even affected the Soviets at the time too.

They may have been turning off our ICBM missiles and their warheads, but over in the Soviet Union they were turning theirs on.

So they can tinker with our nuclear weapons, and we can’t do anything about it.

We don’t have any form of shielding. The nuclear blast doors on top of the silos could not protect those missiles in the United States or the Soviet Union.

Those UAP did what they did regardless of the blast doors, regardless of the fact that the missiles were in launch silo tubes buried under the ground surface with blast doors on top.

Those UAP had no trouble, according to these reports, turning on dozens of missiles over there and turning off dozens of missiles over here.

Then there was an Air Force interceptor incident from the 1950s, if I’m not mistaken. You might remember that detail better than I do.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

It’s not that the UAP shot it down. The pilot chased it all the way up until it was beyond the operating altitude of the aircraft and his life-support system.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

Right. So he probably died from suffocation or something and didn’t recover before the plane crashed.

There have also been reports of UAP craft harming civilians at Colares [location should be verified] in Brazil in the late 1970s.

Jacques Vallée, in Confrontations, writes about UAP craft reportedly using beam weapons against people, including an individual and, in one case, a child in South America and elsewhere.

There has been harm done to UAP witnesses in close-encounter cases, and it has not all been positive.

So they demonstrate the ability to defeat military technologies.

Sure, if they show up on one type of radar, or maybe you see them on a forward-looking infrared camera, the weapons-lock radar may not work.

That was noted even at the Nimitz encounter. The Aegis systems could detect that UAP—the Tic Tac—but they couldn’t shoot it down. They weren’t able to shoot it down.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Let’s get back to the NDA question, because I want to understand what might happen if people are able to come forward.

How about you personally? If this goes through, will you be able to come forward and share what you know, or some of it?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

I’ve already shared my information in classified settings with the Senate Armed Services Committee staff and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence staff.

With the latter, I briefed two separate staffs or sessions. The first time was October 2019, and the second time was in June 2021, I think. I don’t think it was 2020. I’m pretty sure it was 2021.

At the Senate Armed Services Committee, I briefed in a Pentagon SCIF under the sponsorship of the former director of the UAP Task Force, Jay Stratton, and his deputy.

In the first SASC and SSCI staff briefings, which both took place in the same week of October 2019, Kirk McConnell was part of that.

At the SSCI meeting, it was not only Kirk McConnell but Chris Mellon, who joined me.

The second SSCI meeting, two years later, was at a private company’s SCIF in Huntsville, Alabama, where I was working for the Aerospace Corporation at the time.

I briefed them, and I briefed AARO in January 2023.

I also briefed Representative Anna Paulina Luna’s UAP task force on May 15.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Right. A lot of things around that period became public in a way.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

No, that May 15 briefing was classified.

You’re thinking of the May 1 public question-and-answer event that took place in the House Oversight Committee hearing room.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

You talked about different alien races there.

Here’s Eric Davis at that House Oversight-related event talking to Representative Burlison [name spelling should be verified] about different types of reported alien species.

Speaker 3 – Inserted Hearing / Event Clip:

[The beginning of the inserted question is heavily garbled in the automated transcript. The representative appears to ask about the reported number, size, and physical forms of non-human beings associated with UAP.]

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis, in inserted clip:

There are typically multiple species people talk about in reports.

They talk about what are commonly called Grays. They talk about Nordics. There are descriptions that remind witnesses of reptile-like or insect-like types.

They are generally described as having a head, arms, legs, and torso, so they are large or small on a broadly human scale.

The Nordics are typically described as human-sized, probably around five to six feet tall.

The people who use labels like reptilian and insectoid generally describe them as roughly in that size range too.

I haven’t heard anything about anything vastly exceeding the human scale.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

What you also provided to committee members was sensitive material from your prior work?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

What I also provided to committee members, including through Representative Burlison, were my sensitive AAWSAP [acronym should be verified] and NIDS memos and reports.

I have my copies of them. They were proprietary information within the company I worked for at the time because we generated them as part of our subcontract work to Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies, which was the prime contractor on the AAWSAP program.

That company was EarthTech International, Incorporated, here in Austin.

I worked for 15 years as Hal Puthoff’s chief scientist and senior research physicist.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

You talked about the races, and you seem very convinced that we do have the craft.

How do you know? What have you seen?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

I know on a classified basis, like David Grusch does. David Grusch had more security clearance in that regard than I did.

But I was not only briefed by him; I was briefed directly by two separate industry crash-retrieval contractors.

One was during my NIDS period in 1998, and the other was another company when I was working for Hal Puthoff during AAWSAP.

That was an official AAWSAP activity that I was responsible for.

It wasn’t just me. Hal Puthoff, Bob Bigelow, and Colm Kelleher were briefed at that time too.

So that group of us interfaced with the senior leader of one of the crash-retrieval companies.

I also interfaced with an executive who was in charge of security at another aerospace company that no longer exists because it was absorbed by another aerospace company sometime after the turn of the 21st century.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Without asking you to reveal anything you’re not supposed to, how far have these private-industry crash-retrieval companies gotten?

How much have they actually duplicated from the recovered technology? Is there a secret space program?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

As of 2017, maybe early 2018 at the latest, that was the last time I met with that senior aerospace-company leader.

When we talked about your question, I was gauging him: where are they now?

He had been retired for six years but was still in contact with the man who replaced him.

His understanding was that there had been no major success.

There had been modest and very incremental success in understanding the materials used to fabricate a UAP craft, but there was no understanding of how they were manufactured or how the fabrication came about. It was too far advanced.

Jim Lacatski has talked about being allowed inside a craft once program scientists and engineers figured out how to open it.

He said they did not see anything recognizable in the way of a power source or propulsion system.

That aerospace senior leader essentially said the same thing to me. He said they didn’t see recognizable propulsion or power technology on or inside these craft.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

That is remarkable.

Why did Ben Rich, the former head of Lockheed’s Skunk Works, reportedly say years ago that “we have the technology to take E.T. home”? Was that just bravado?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

That was Ben Rich. I read about him and his psychology. That was hubris.

Keep in mind, he was not a physicist. He was an aircraft engineer.

He was reading Popular Science, Popular Mechanics, Scientific American, Science News—all those popular-science sources.

Remember, back then they didn’t have the internet as we have it today. There was an early internet, but it was largely restricted to scientific communities.

So he was reading popular-science magazines and learning about quantum field theories and general relativity.

He was hearing news about the theoretical discovery of traversable wormholes by Kip Thorne at Caltech and his graduate-student and postdoctoral collaborators.

I don’t remember what year Ben Rich died. I believe he may have died before Miguel Alcubierre published the warp-drive paper.

If that’s correct, he never saw the work or the news about that warp-drive paper.

But there was plenty of news about traversable wormholes going back to 1988, when he was still alive, though retired.

He could put these pieces of information together and make that statement at a UCLA engineering alumni meeting.

One of my older-generation colleagues attended that meeting and actually heard Ben Rich say it.

So I believe Ben Rich said those words.

Ironically, Ben Rich’s assistant later denied that Ben Rich ever said it, but there was an audience full of engineering alumni who heard him make the statement about having the technology to take E.T. home.

My interpretation is that Ben Rich was extrapolating from theory. He didn’t realize how theoretical it still was.

This is my professional expertise. We don’t know how to engineer the Einstein solutions to create warp drives and traversable wormholes. We simply can’t engineer that.

The NHIs may have figured something out, but we don’t know if they’re using Einstein’s general theory of relativity or if they took a shortcut through some different approach to manipulating spacetime.

Maybe they figured out something through other dimensions that we haven’t discovered yet.

We haven’t discovered any extra spatial dimensions as large as the three spatial dimensions we live in.

Then there’s time as the fourth coordinate in spacetime. When you multiply time, measured in seconds, by the speed of light, measured in meters per second, you can convert the time coordinate into a unit of distance in the unified spacetime model.

That is the Minkowski spacetime geometry that Einstein used in special relativity and later in general relativity.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Some experiencers have said there’s a kind of mind-melding with the ship. There’s some kind of intelligence involved.

I don’t want to take you too far into metaphysics, but are you talking about telepathic control—controlling the ship with one’s mind?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

Yes.

We had evidence or testimony of that from people going back to the Roswell-era days who were still alive through the 1990s and early 2000s.

On a private basis, they talked about being inside a ship and described no conventional control systems.

That’s also what the big aerospace company I interfaced with during AAWSAP said.

They described no levers, no gauges, no dials, no push buttons, no toggle switches.

There might be something that looked like a hand impression with three or four fingers in a panel, and that was about it.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

But they believed the control was really telepathic?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

That’s on the extreme end of the spectrum, where you get into remote-viewing-type ideas—that their minds are developed enough to telepathically control the craft.

That would imply their craft have some kind of brainwave transducer that receives a telepathic message and transduces it into an electronic response that controls the craft.

So far, telepathic control is what I’ve heard proposed.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

You’re a physicist, and you’ve done papers on traversable wormholes and Einstein-Rosen bridges.

Going away from the political disclosure question for a moment, how do you hypothesize they might be traveling from wherever they come from to here? What might be the means of propulsion?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

We don’t know yet. We can speculate. That’s all we can do.

According to Jim Lacatski and according to that senior aerospace-company leader, there was no recognizable propulsion and power system inside the craft.

So we can only speculate.

A colleague of mine and I independently speculated that they might be using quantum entanglement.

It has been theoretically shown—and I think rudimentary experiments have been done in quantum-optics laboratories involving quantum-entanglement teleportation—that energy or quantum states can be transferred in ways that inspire this speculation.

We both came up with this idea: what if you’ve got a planet-wide power source 500 light-years away and you can entangle the power generated by that source with a craft across the galaxy?

Then the craft could operate without carrying a conventional power source or fuel.

These things don’t obviously have fuel tanks on or in them.

So it might involve some very advanced quantum-entanglement principle, where energy is not conventionally stored in the craft but is somehow involved directly in producing the propulsion.

It could be anything from a traversable wormhole or Stargate, which is something I studied for the Air Force Research Laboratory, or it could be a different way of manipulating spacetime than general relativity envisions.

There are theoretical research groups working on ideas in which spacetime may emerge from quantum entanglement.

Einstein’s geometry is a way to describe spacetime curvature and gravity in general relativity, but gravity may not be fundamental in the same way other forces are. It emerges from spacetime curvature in that framework.

Einstein needed a mathematical canvas. His theory paints curved spacetime on that canvas and yields gravity, accelerations, black holes, wormholes, warp drives, collapsed stars such as neutron stars and black holes, gravitational waves, and other effects.

But modern explorations of quantum theory, entanglement, and teleportation suggest that the fundamental structure underlying spacetime may have a quantum-entanglement basis.

It may be that spacetime unfolds from entangled particles produced in the early universe.

If that’s true, manipulating quantum entanglement around a craft might manipulate the effective spacetime structure around the craft and produce propulsion.

Does it propel through extra spatial dimensions? We don’t know.

We’ve never discovered such dimensions astronomically or in particle accelerators, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re not there. It may mean we haven’t used the right approach to discover them.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Hal Puthoff said in an interview I did with him years ago that, hypothetically, they might move spacetime in front of the craft and that propels them into a kind of vacuum.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

He’s talking about the warp-drive idea—contracting space in front and expanding space behind.

But that’s not necessarily the best description of the warp-drive picture.

A researcher named Natário [name should be verified] looked at Alcubierre’s warp-drive solution and generalized it mathematically.

A better way to describe it is a ship slipping through spacetime.

Instead of thinking only in terms of compressing distances in front of you and expanding distances behind you, you can think of spacetime itself sliding the craft through.

You could, in principle, get effective faster-than-light travel because there’s no speed limit on the expansion or deformation of spacetime itself in the same way there is on matter and information moving locally through spacetime.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Is that what Hal was relating to in The Age of Disclosure when he talked about a bubble of spacetime around the craft?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

Exactly.

With enough energy, you could create a bubble—a warp bubble—around a spacecraft that has different spacetime properties inside the bubble from outside the bubble.

This energy field could isolate the craft from the external environment.

You might ask how the craft actually moves forward within its bubble. The craft inside the bubble would have some way of altering the bubble’s properties in order to change its direction of motion.

It would be like riding spacetime the way a surfer rides a wave in the ocean.

We observe reports of hypersonic velocity and instantaneous acceleration. One speculative explanation is that time and spacetime are behaving differently for the craft inside the bubble.

The effect might also be mimicked by modifying quantum entanglement around a craft.

That means you’re going to the underlying structure of spacetime—the quantum entanglement of everything—and using some technique to manipulate it so that it mimics or resembles a warp bubble.

Then you could potentially get around some of the engineering problems presented by Einstein’s equations.

The equations give you a very small coupling between matter-energy and spacetime curvature. In the conventional warp-drive solutions, the energy requirements become astronomical.

The transcript’s numbers here are very technical and should be checked against the recording, but the point is that conventional general-relativistic engineering appears to require an enormous, probably impractical amount of exotic or negative energy.

There might be a way of getting around that by manipulating quantum entanglement directly, because you are no longer relying on exactly the same coupling structure as in the classical Einstein equations.

That’s something that needs to be looked at.

Unfortunately, I’m not working on that now. EarthTech has largely been on hibernation.

The staff was laid off in 2018 after a major funding source that Hal had for 27 years ended.

I’ve had to work in the aerospace industry to earn a living, and none of that work pays me to do the theoretical research I would need to develop a quantum-entanglement version of a warp drive or wormhole.

I simply don’t have the time. It could take years to come up with the theory.

Einstein had to work about 10 years to develop general relativity after publishing special relativity, and he worked on that full time.

I had about 15 years at EarthTech, and I was trying to work on the engineering side—seeing whether we could get around the conventional implications before I became interested in the quantum-entanglement approach to spacetime and gravity.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

The engineering is fascinating. If I had more education in that field, it would be even more fascinating, but I understand what you’re saying.

You really are talking about the cutting edge of possible future technologies.

Let’s get back to the aliens for a second.

Do you think there is an abduction program on the part of the Gray-type beings—coming in and taking people or genetics? Is that something you can confirm or deny?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

I don’t know.

I don’t even know what the crash-retrieval programs know about that.

I’ve only had a limited peek into the programs during AAWSAP and from my earlier source at NIDS in 1998.

Alien abductions did not come up.

So I have no insight into that at all. I can’t really answer that question. I would if I had an answer, but I don’t.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Why do you think these races are here?

You said four, but you later said four among many.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

That’s right. Four among many.

Those are four prominent categories people report: the Grays, the Nordics, and types that remind people of insects or reptiles, even though I’m not saying they literally are insects or reptiles.

That’s a minimum set.

If you want to see what other reported NHIs look like, there’s an older book associated with a 1974 television documentary, UFOs: Past, Present and Future [author/title details should be verified].

It has schematics or illustrations of reported NHIs that came from Project Blue Book and reports investigated by Jacques Vallée, J. Allen Hynek, and other qualified scientific investigators.

You can see a taxonomy of different reported UAP configurations, and a taxonomy of different reported NHI forms.

There’s a being associated with the Holloman case illustrated there. It looks somewhat Egyptian because of the headgear and a large hooked nose—maybe something Greek-Egyptian-looking.

That one may be representative of the so-called Nordic category.

I think the Grays are in there too. Some reports describe them wearing a silver suit.

A lot of close-encounter witnesses, whether abductees or non-abductees, describe these beings either in a suit with the head exposed or in a suit that covers the head—a total one-piece suit.

There have been other books published, but I haven’t bought all of them to read.

There may be a wider taxonomy of reported NHI types.

But those four that I talked about at the May 1 question-and-answer panel with Representatives Luna and Burlison [name should be verified] are among the most recognizable categories.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Why do you think the NHIs are here visiting?

If you had to guess, what do you think?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

I don’t know. That’s another secret I couldn’t penetrate through the classifications to get an answer to.

I do know that a president was said to have volunteered information that we had been in contact with NHIs.

There’s also another president who was briefed on the issue, for which we have what I describe as a facsimile of a briefing document from the late 1970s.

Of all the studies I’ve read and the information I’ve gathered from crash-retrieval people themselves, those people are technical. They’re engineers, security officers, and program managers.

They don’t necessarily have the answer to the question of why the NHIs are here because that isn’t their tasking order.

Their tasking order is more like, “Here’s a piece of UAP craft. Analyze it.”

The reality is that sometimes only the top leadership knows it is UAP craft.

The actual engineers touching a piece may not be told where it comes from. They keep that compartmentalized from the technical talent accessing pieces of the craft.

They may not be accessing the entire craft. They may be accessing pieces removed from it or pieces recovered from a crash.

There are, according to what I have been told, entire craft.

And I’m sure that technicians who are given access to an entire craft would automatically realize that what they’re touching and exploring is not conventional human technology.

But technical people don’t necessarily know the contact information, the motives, or why they’re here.

That is above their pay grade. Somebody else, somewhere else in the government or possibly within contractor leadership, may know.

The senior corporate leader I interfaced with, and whom Hal Puthoff, Bob Bigelow, and Colm Kelleher also interfaced with during AAWSAP, did not reveal that he knew the answer to that question.

If he did know, he couldn’t reveal it to us.

We all had TS/SCI clearances. He had a higher level of special-access clearance—what I’m describing as waived, unacknowledged Special Access Program access [terminology should be verified].

These are not standard Special Access Programs.

A waived or unacknowledged program may not be acknowledged in ordinary ways and may have highly restricted reporting and oversight.

In this context, I believe at most two members of the Gang of Eight may have been briefed on crash-retrieval programs rather than all eight.

It’s hard to speculate how much information is given even to those members, and who knows what about contact or purpose.

Based on a document I saw from before the Reagan administration, it was clear to me that there was useful information, but it wasn’t in-depth enough to answer everything because the appendices were missing.

The document had an executive summary that referenced appendices, but the appendices didn’t come with it.

That makes it very hard to determine the full picture.

As to their relationship with the human race, I talked about that at Contact in the Desert 2026 [event name should be verified].

Based on the totality of UAP encounter evidence, I think we can make a stronger hypothesis about their relationship to us even if we don’t know exactly who they are or where they come from.

My 90-minute lecture there essentially followed the “zoo hypothesis” known from SETI discussions: they’re the zookeepers; we’re the zoo animals.

The SETI scientific community traditionally applies that to extraterrestrials and often rejects UFO/UAP and NHI reports outright.

But I think the evidence suggests the zoo hypothesis may actually fit their relationship to us.

I gave a long explanation of that, which we don’t have time to get into here.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Is there material you’ve seen that you simply can’t talk about—really strange material that would shock people?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

With respect to crash retrievals, or my personal experiences at Skinwalker Ranch?

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Let’s talk about some of your personal experiences at Skinwalker.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

On the classified side, I saw classified human intelligence on a UAP recovery by a foreign country during the Cold War.

I haven’t personally seen the physical evidence associated with my first source at NIDS in 1998 or my second industry source during AAWSAP.

Jim Lacatski has now talked publicly, in books and interviews, about going into a craft, touching it, and entering it after it was opened.

The problem is that Jim never revealed to Bob Bigelow, Colm Kelleher, Hal Puthoff, me, Jacques Vallée, John Schuessler, or others on that team that he had been given access to a craft, invited to see it, touch it, and go inside it.

That was news to us.

If there was anything else he had been briefed on, he couldn’t necessarily reveal it to us because during AAWSAP we had TS/SCI clearances, while people like Jim Lacatski and my other industry source had higher waived/unacknowledged Special Access Program access.

They couldn’t tell us much beyond our clearance.

That’s where, in my opinion, the really sensitive information is.

I haven’t been able to see anything beyond foreign intelligence I was given access to for another three-letter agency as part of my AAWSAP work.

That was very spectacular, but it consisted of photographs and technical reports. No video or film.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Did you ever see bodies?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

There were bodies in that material.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Did you see a physical body?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

No. Photographs of bodies. Photographs and reports.

I didn’t see the physical material because I wasn’t in the foreign country. That country was hostile to the United States, so there was no way they were going to let me in there.

As for Skinwalker Ranch, I was there five of the six years I worked for NIDS and Bob Bigelow.

That was a pretty intense experience.

Right off the bat, the staff consisted primarily of Colm Kelleher, another colleague [name unclear], and me. John Alexander was something like a quasi-staff member and science-advisory-board member.

He spent a night at the ranch and came back for a few days with a remote viewer and so forth.

But we were there for one- to two-week periods over about a five-year period.

From the beginning, crazy things happened. It was intense.

I’m not somebody who scares easily. Guys with PhDs tend to be stoic. We’ve been through elaborate haunted houses and funhouses. That kind of thing isn’t what scares us.

What happened at the ranch was disturbing and perturbing because it was difficult to explain.

For example, we had multiple surveillance cameras on the ranch connected to time-lapse VHS recorders.

We were looking for phenomena, so we would collect the tapes, take them back to Las Vegas, and run them through VHS players.

We’d fast-forward them, and whenever something unusual appeared, we’d rewind and watch at normal speed.

These were 72-hour recordings on a single VHS tape, so one person could spend all day watching one tape.

We would take turns until we exhausted all the tapes collected over a month or a couple of weeks.

One surveillance camera went dead while two others were fine.

We noted the date and timestamp when it failed, then looked at tapes from the other cameras. Nothing obvious was visible.

So we got Terry Sherman, the former owner of the ranch, to look at why the camera had gone out.

He reported that somebody or something had cut a cable on a telephone pole high above ordinary human reach.

The cable was cut absolutely cleanly and horizontally.

Another camera was watching the area, but we didn’t see anybody walking up, using a ladder, climbing the pole, or cutting the cable.

We didn’t see a cow doing it either.

That’s disturbing.

Then we had the orbs. We had agitated cattle. I had a dark-shadow experience.

Those were described in The Hunt for the Skinwalker by Kelleher and Knapp.

We saw orbs, and in one case we could see that there appeared to be a structure inside an orb.

Another orb was farther away. One flew over the ranch and left. We didn’t record it because we were outside without recording equipment at that moment.

Another was visible by eye from the trailer house for about 30 minutes, but it was about three-quarters of a mile away.

Nobody wanted to go chase it down in the dark. This was our first visit there, and we had no equipment or appropriate rugged clothing with us.

The terrain is rough. You can walk into a foot of muck without seeing it. We didn’t have flashlights or field meters with us at that moment.

Then, the following February or early March, there was a newborn calf found severely mutilated.

There was still some snow on the ground and the leaves hadn’t regrown on the trees.

The mother cow was extremely agitated and stayed some distance from the calf.

The calf was dismembered very cleanly. An ear had been sliced off. It had been gutted. There was no obvious blood or bodily fluid at the scene. You could see the rib cage and hide.

I think an eye was removed, but I don’t remember that detail perfectly. I clearly remember the ear.

The leg joints had been removed from their sockets, which is difficult to do manually.

We took tissue evidence and sent it through Kit Green, who had CIA medical and forensic experience, to a colleague who was an expert in homicide involving sharp instruments.

We took a chunk from the head where the ear had been sliced off and tissue samples from other dismembered areas.

The forensic opinion we received was that the cuts showed signs consistent with a machete or similar sharp instrument.

The timing was what made it strange.

Terry and Gwen Sherman saw the calf born and standing up. They drove to another part of the ranch, perhaps half a mile or three-quarters of a mile away, to work on a gate or fence.

They came back around 30 minutes later, and the calf was in that condition.

The mother cow was standing many yards away, angry and threatening, but not attacking anyone.

John Alexander did a scenario analysis of whether a military special-forces team could have done it.

His conclusion was that they wouldn’t have had enough time to do all of that without being heard or seen.

The Shermans would likely have heard a helicopter. Yes, there are quiet helicopters, but they aren’t perfectly silent. From their vantage point, they should have seen or heard it.

So the idea of a helicopter coming in, dropping a special-forces team, having them carve up the calf, and extracting again within that short period without the mother cow attacking them was difficult to make fit.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

There’s so much to the phenomenon, and you’ve been inside a lot of it.

What do you think the big picture is?

If you could hypothesize about what’s really going on with NHI-human interaction, are they trying to upgrade our awareness? Are they hiding from us? What’s your educated guess?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

I don’t know.

That goes to your earlier question. We can speculate, but motive is hard.

What I think we have enough information to form a hypothesis about is their relationship with us.

I think they’re the zookeepers, and we’re the zoo animals.

They’re here checking up on us.

They know we have stupendous weaponry that could devastate the planet if it were all used at once—China, the United States, Israel, other nuclear powers in Europe and elsewhere.

The planet would be devastated.

They’re obviously very aware of our nuclear weapons.

They go to where nuclear weapons are stored, deployed, and manufactured, and they enter the airspace of those facilities with impunity.

It’s hard to say whether they’re caretakers looking out for us or not.

They haven’t caused a nuclear war.

What they reportedly did with Soviet and American ICBM sites in the late 1960s and the 1970s did not lead to nuclear war.

But it did demonstrate power.

They demonstrated their power to us, and they’ve demonstrated it in other ways too.

We’re just not sure why.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

I understand a statement associated with Jacques Vallée that the release of information is driven strictly by the phenomenon itself.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

Exactly.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

What does that mean? Does it mean the phenomenon is directing the action or our response to it?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

I don’t know exactly how to explain that.

All I know is that the evidence appears to suggest the phenomenon has some form of control over human forces on Earth—governments, contractors, maybe other governments too.

It seems to be some sort of control system.

Vallée has long called it an intelligent control system, and I think that description is appropriate because we observed something like that in action at the ranch during the years I was working for Bigelow.

I think it may not want the human race knowing exactly what it is, where it comes from, why it is really here, and what its agenda is.

That’s the thing you’re asking. We don’t know the agenda.

But I think it may play a role in preventing full disclosure.

I gave Trump less than a 10 percent chance of success.

Originally I wrote less than 1 percent, and then I thought I’d better give him more slack, so I increased it by a factor of 10 to less than 10 percent.

That reflects a suspicion in the back of my mind that the NHIs themselves are not going to let him go all the way in disclosure.

They’ll pull strings however they pull strings to prevent Trump from going the full way.

There will be human forces on the inside working against disclosure and, potentially, this intelligent control system on the outside working against it.

That may sound convoluted or crazy to some astrophysicists, but many of them aren’t very learned in this area.

They have no experience with it. They’ve spent their lives in laboratories, classrooms, and university offices.

They need to pick up books published by serious UAP researchers and scientists.

There are top scientists who have addressed this subject—Peter Sturrock, Jacques Vallée, myself, Colm Kelleher, Jim Lacatski, and others.

Jay Stratton’s book is coming out in October, according to what I know, and that’s another one people should pay attention to.

There were important researchers from the older generation too, like James McDonald and John Schuessler.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

John Schuessler was very important to MUFON and to getting experiencer ideas taken seriously there.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

Yes. He passed away at home two Saturdays ago.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

I’m sorry to hear that. He was very important in changing MUFON from just a nuts-and-bolts focus toward experiencer reports.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

He did. There are many names I can’t think of right now, but you know what I’m talking about.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Is there anyone you feel is in direct contact with the NHI?

You talked about George W. Bush and the Holloman material—

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

No, no. George Herbert Walker Bush. The senior Bush.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Right, the older Bush.

Is there anyone you feel is in direct contact with NHI and taking orders from them?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

It’s possible.

I don’t know for a fact, but it’s possible it could be somebody at the government level, maybe coordinating with one or two contractors.

I just don’t have evidence of it.

But I don’t want to dismiss it automatically because that could be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There are stories involving government or defense-industry contractors who allegedly knew an NHI or UAP event would occur before it was observed.

Holloman is one example people discuss.

There was another story associated with the remote-viewing program and Ingo Swann, where a company or group Swann was interacting with allegedly knew in advance that a large UAP would appear over a lake in Alaska.

They assembled a team, took Ingo with them, and hid in the forest to keep a low profile.

According to the story, they watched the object arrive, watched it draw water out of a lake, watched it emit a beam that killed a large elk on the edge of the lake, and watched it fly away.

The striking claim is that they supposedly knew the event was going to happen before they got there.

They also supposedly knew that Ingo was going to encounter what he psychically perceived as an alien in human disguise.

Mainstream astrophysicists, physicists, and mathematicians may laugh at that, but I think these reports deserve examination.

Ingo later had an event involving a woman in a grocery-store produce section who appeared extraordinarily attractive and whom he psychically perceived as non-human.

According to the story, the contractor’s senior representative and a security team already knew she was going to be there.

They steered the circumstances so that Ingo would go to the grocery store because he needed food for a dinner he and a companion were going to hold.

I lived two blocks from where Ingo lived at one point, so I knew that part of New York City.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

This was in New York City?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

New York City.

The claim is that the contractor and its security team knew before Ingo got there that there would be an apparent alien in human disguise in that grocery store.

They were testing remote viewing.

Ingo was a premier remote viewer associated with the program with Hal Puthoff at SRI.

They wanted to see whether a remote viewer as good as Ingo could tell the difference between ordinary humans and something non-human appearing human.

According to the story, he passed the test and psychically recognized it.

If that account is accurate, then somebody in the government, working with one or more contractors, may already have had some kind of contact arrangement.

That’s the thing: I don’t have the clearances to penetrate all the way into it.

I’d need to be something like the Attorney General of the United States, charged by the president to go knocking down the doors of government program offices and contractor companies without fear of retribution or lawsuits.

Somebody with that level of authority needs to be able to get at this because it’s stubbornly kept secret.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

It sounds like the whole “psionic” idea that Jake Barber has talked about may have been happening back in the 1960s.

What do you think of the psionic assets he says were used?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

“Psionic” is also the name of a defense company, so terminology matters.

The more technical term is psychotronics—technology involving psychic abilities.

I think people sometimes use the wrong words.

The same applies to “biologics.” In ordinary technical usage, biologics are medical products such as vaccines or therapies involving biological materials. So I prefer saying aliens, NHIs, Grays, or whatever category is actually meant rather than using “biologics” loosely.

Psychotronics means technology that uses psychic abilities.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Jake Barber came out and talked to Ross Coulthart about what he called psionic assets employed by private industry to pull down craft or perceive what’s on a craft.

Does that make sense to you?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

I hadn’t seen that interview. I’ve only seen people comment on it.

I’ll grant him the possibility that he’s speaking factually or truthfully. I don’t want to disagree with him because I don’t know otherwise.

If that’s the case, then it may mean they learned lessons from the Ingo Swann days and Holloman-type events and figured out how to psychotronically or psychically contact UAP and have them come when they want.

There is an aspect of that in what I was told by my source at one of the legacy companies in 1998.

That person talked a lot about psychic contact associated with U.S. recovery teams and UAP craft.

There was a psychic event, but it wasn’t the recovery team calling the craft.

The claim was that the craft somehow psychically wiped the recovery team’s memories for a short period of time so they couldn’t remember what had happened to them.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Wow.

I really appreciate your enthusiasm and excitement. You’re still very involved in this whole phenomenon, aren’t you, even if you’re not working directly on it?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

I’m working in the defense industry now. I don’t have direct connections to those programs anymore.

I am a member of the advisory board of the Sol Foundation and the Disclosure Foundation, so that’s one way I’m involved.

I also communicate occasionally with members of Representative Luna’s task force.

But I don’t have the old program connections because my employer gets government contracts in the defense industry, and we have to spend the money from those contracts to the penny on what the contracts require us to do.

When a contract ends, we have to produce the required deliverable or technology solution.

There’s no leeway there like I had when working for Hal Puthoff or Bob Bigelow, or when I worked for the Air Force Research Laboratory as a contract principal investigator.

The program manager in the Advanced Concepts Office there was a big UFO aficionado.

He had worked around AFRL for roughly five decades and had heard, learned, and seen enough peripheral information—and maybe had conversations with people directly involved—to become convinced there was a real UFO crash-retrieval program and to develop views about the likely organizations and locations.

He let me run with the subject and uncover what I could for him.

That was very fortunate.

Later I worked for the Aerospace Corporation for almost four and a half years.

Now I work for another company that I’m not allowed to name, and I’m coming up on my first year of employment there.

There isn’t a process or avenue for me to stay directly involved in crash-retrieval work.

I will say that at the Aerospace Corporation, I had a small door open because one of the company’s customers is the National Reconnaissance Office.

The NRO had a large SCIF suite in an Aerospace facility in Colorado Springs, and one of their programs was inside another SCIF within that secured area.

They brought me in because Jay Stratton was briefing them about UAP.

I was hired by Aerospace in December 2019.

When Jay learned I was working for Aerospace in Huntsville, Alabama, he told the NRO program component he had been briefing that they should have me brief them too.

Since they were already in an Aerospace building and supported by Aerospace personnel under contract, they could use that contract mechanism to fly me from Huntsville to Colorado Springs and have me brief them for two or three days.

That’s what they did.

In the first week of March 2020, just before the COVID shutdowns, David Grusch was an employee of that group at the time.

He and the program manager arranged in January and February 2020 to fly me out there at company expense and have me give about two and a half days of classified and proprietary briefings on the subjects we’ve been discussing.

David Grusch was the NRO liaison officer to Jay Stratton’s UAP Task Force at the Office of Naval Intelligence.

That’s how Jay, David, and the civilian leadership in Colorado Springs connected me into those briefings.

There’s the overlap between David Grusch, Jay Stratton, me, and the Aerospace Corporation.

David used my briefings as part of the information trail that allowed him to follow the “yellow brick road” toward locating alleged crash-retrieval programs using his higher-level or “super-user” security-clearance status.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

But you’re not hopeful that we’ll ever have full-on disclosure because of both the legacy programs and the NHIs themselves pushing back?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

There will be pushback.

There’s also going to be the concern of three-letter law-enforcement agencies that want to set up procedures controlling what can be released.

My position is that surface-level information should come out.

They exist. They’re here. They’ve been coming here for however long they’ve been coming here, and they’ve been interacting with the human race for that length of time.

That needs to be revealed.

The fact that they have high-technology craft, that reports involve psychic capabilities, orbs, craft, and other phenomena—that should be revealed.

The fact that craft have crashed or landed, and that we have either successfully or unsuccessfully recovered them worldwide, and some are in our possession—that should be revealed.

The fact that they have advanced technology should be revealed.

If we have been in contact with them, that should be revealed.

If the government knows why they’re here, that should be revealed.

But what we have learned technically—or what little we’ve learned—should remain protected where there is a genuine national-security risk.

I don’t know whether reverse engineering has advanced much since the industry contact I knew during AAWSAP retired in the early 2000s.

But that technical part should remain classified because of the potential for adversaries to steal it and leapfrog our progress.

Maybe it becomes an advanced weapon.

That doesn’t have to mean an antigravity propulsion system carrying a weapons platform.

It could be something like psychic communication technology that replaces jammable radio-wave communications.

Imagine communicating psychically with troops in a way an adversary can’t intercept or jam.

That would be incredible.

Those kinds of things have to be kept secret.

There has to be a firewall between surface-level disclosure and in-depth technical information.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Any comments about the Wilson-Davis memos that were revealed a couple of years ago?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

I can’t comment.

Legally, I’m allowed to say it’s a real document. It’s factual. It is accurate.

That’s all I can say about it.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Thank you for saying that piece, Eric.

You’re such a wealth of inside information.

I’d love to do a program with you sometime just about wormhole technologies. Would you be interested?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

Okay. We can do that.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Are you doing a lot of podcasts right now?

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

No.

I promised you at Contact in the Desert that I’d do your podcast.

I’ve done a bunch of podcasts already. I have one more coming up in two weeks and maybe another one in mid- or late August.

It’s been sparse. I don’t have time to do them on a weekly basis.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Thank you for your time today. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

You’re welcome. I’m happy to be here, and I enjoyed answering your questions. Thank you for having me on.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

There’s so much to this phenomenon. I think it’s the most interesting thing happening on planet Earth at this moment.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

Oh, absolutely. This is better than the war in Iran, inflation, and high gasoline prices.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Thank you so much, Eric. I’ll be in touch, and I appreciate your time and everything you’ve shared today.

Speaker 2 – Guest Dr. Eric Davis:

You’re welcome. I was happy to be here. Bye-bye.

Speaker 1 – Host Alan Steinfeld:

Bye.