Speaker Identification

Speaker 1 - Announcer / Prerecorded Intro Voice. The opening station-style introduction identifies the Bible News Prophecy Program and states that it is brought to listeners by the Continuing Church of God.

Speaker 2 - Steve Dupuie, Presenter / Interviewer. The speaker identifies himself near the beginning as "Steve Dupuie." The closing transcription renders the surname differently as "Duple," so the exact spelling should be verified from the audio or program records.

Speaker 3 - Dr. Bob Thiel, Guest / Commentator. The opening transcription introduces the guest as "Dr. Bob Kiel," while the closing renders the surname as "Teal." Because the transcript is inconsistent, the exact surname should be verified. The label "Dr. Bob Thiel" is used consistently in this corrected transcript based on the first full introduction.

Speaker 1 - Announcer / Prerecorded Intro Voice: This is the Bible News Prophecy Program, bringing you news and analysis of world events in the light of Bible prophecy. The following program is brought to you by the Continuing Church of God.

Speaker 2 - Steve Dupuie: Greetings, friends. This is Steve Dupuie for the Bible News Prophecy Program with Dr. Bob Thiel, bringing you news and analysis of world events in light of Bible prophecy.

Dr. Thiel, we were just talking about Russia's special military operation. Is the scope of that conflict expanding to NATO?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Bob Thiel: Well, Russia has been attacking in Ukraine, but there's been fallout in some of the other European countries that are near it, like Romania. For example, it says that, as of August 17, four Russian drones have been shot down in Romanian airspace. The Romanians say their airspace has been violated by Russian drones at least 23 times this year.

But, as the article says, so far there's nothing to suggest Moscow intended to violate Romanian airspace, according to their ministry in Bucharest. They also said, "Based on the data and evidence we have, we can't conclude that the increased number of drone incidents in our territory is a result of a deliberate attempt to target specific locations in our country." The ministry told ABC News in a statement.

Speaker 2 - Steve Dupuie: Is Russia about to attack NATO?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Bob Thiel: Well, some people think so. MSN posted that Western intelligence agencies are increasingly concerned that Russia may be preparing a limited hybrid operation targeting NATO's eastern flank, particularly involving the Baltic states or Poland. Latvia is one of those states, and it's been concerned about that as well.

CNN reported that U.S. intelligence assessments indicate that the Russian president could try to test NATO's resolve by launching a limited attack on an allied country in a few years. The alliance's leaders say they're ready for an attack, but some people think maybe Russia can get away with one.

For example, former German Defense Minister Karl Teodor Zuglutenberg warned in May that Russia might attack European NATO members for two reasons. Number one, and this quotation is partially reconstructed because the source transcript is garbled: "With the signs multiplying that the U.S., due to Trump's personality, and NATO's current inability, would not come to the aid of an attacked European nation, even though the NATO collective-defense clause, Article 5, would be triggered." And number two: "The Europeans are not yet capable of effectively defending themselves against a Russian attack." End quote.

So anyway, this gives Russian President Vladimir Putin, according to this article, a clear window of opportunity to act. Many Western thinkers feel that if Russia did attack NATO, NATO either couldn't or wouldn't respond.

Speaker 2 - Steve Dupuie: Is Russia about to take possession of any NATO lands?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Bob Thiel: Well, first, everybody thinks NATO would respond to a major attack. But as far as Russia taking possession of any NATO lands, some think so.

I'm going to read from a post from a couple of days ago. It says, "In recent months, the three Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania have been increasingly targeted by Russian hybrid attacks."

In a booklet called The Prophesied Prince of Russia, the writer points to a passage in EzeThiel 38 that indicates that Putin will probably conquer more nations of the former Soviet Union.

EzeThiel 38:2 reads, as rendered in the discussion, "Son of man, set your face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against it." And they say that this verse should read "the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal." Rosh was the ancient name of Russia, once called [unclear in source]. That's correct, by the way.

So who's this prince of Russia - Moscow, [unclear place name, transcribed as "Tubalisk"]? This is an individual ruler of all the peoples of Russia from the west and the east, which I don't think, by the way, includes people from the Baltics because they're not Russian.

But anyway, this says that the prince will probably come and conquer more nations of the former Soviet Union. With all the firepower that the U.S. and Europe have, you might think they would prevent this from happening. But why would it happen?

Because in 2008 they wrote, "I believe that Germany's leaders may have already made a deal with Russia, a modern Hitler-Stalin pact where Germany and Russia divide countries and assets between themselves."

Speaker 2 - Steve Dupuie: Are we about to see Russia and Germany divide Europe as they did in the early stages of World War II, as the article says?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Bob Thiel: Well, anyway, they asked that last question, and the answer is no.

Speaker 2 - Steve Dupuie: Why do you say no?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Bob Thiel: Germany and Russia are not ready to divide Europe, because you've got to look at what EzeThiel 38 says. It says it's going to take place in the latter days, when Israel is safe and unprotected and has lots of gold and silver. But Israel doesn't have lots of gold and silver now, and it certainly has a lot of military protection because it doesn't feel safe.

The late Herbert W. Armstrong wrote last century that this invasion in EzeThiel 38 will not come until after the second coming of Christ. And the biblical reality, by the way, is that it won't be fulfilled for a thousand years, at least from now.

So Vladimir Putin, who that group teaches is the prince of Russia, is not about to fulfill EzeThiel 38. Furthermore, EzeThiel 38 does not teach that the nations of the former Eastern Bloc are to be attacked by Russia. So there is no need to worry about a soon-coming deal between Germany and Russia.

Well, I actually agree that Russia is going to make a deal with Germany, but it's not for giving up European Union nations and dividing Europe. It'll be to eliminate the United States and British-descended peoples and allies and divide them up.

Now, that's consistent with biblical prophecies like Daniel 11:39, which says the European King of the North will conquer the power with the strongest military - the strongest forces, in the United States - and divide the land for gain. It's not a prophecy related to Russia getting parts of Eastern Europe.

And the old Radio Church of God, back in 1962, said even back then that the German people were asking themselves, "Can we rely on the Americans and British?" Their conclusion was that they need to rely on themselves and make a better bargain with the Russians.

So, as the article says, most Americans are not aware of what Germany and Europe are plotting against them, and world events are moving toward the climax when Great Britain and the United States will be attacked and destroyed. End quote.

Now, the Bible teaches that when this European beast power rises up and conquers all these people, the world will be astonished by its military accomplishments. You can read that in the New Testament, Revelation 13:3-4.

Now, this would include eliminating the United States and British-descended peoples and allies, as well as a confederation of Islamic nations in the Middle East and North Africa. And you can read this in Daniel 11:39-43.

Speaker 2 - Steve Dupuie: Typically speaking, where does Russia fit into the end times?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Bob Thiel: Well, there are different scriptures. Talking about the King of the North, he - the European power - is going to be disturbed, according to Daniel 11:44, by news from the east and the north that will trouble him. And so we talk about what could be east and north of Europe: Russia and Asia.

So this is going to be an alliance that will be against Europe. If you go into Revelation 16, we read, starting in verse 12, about the sixth angel pouring out his bowl on the great River Euphrates. Its water is dried up so that the way of the kings from the east would be prepared. And by verse 16, it says they will gather together at the place called in Hebrew Armageddon.

Now, Russia is clearly part of the kings of the east. Actually, you can't get any farther east than Russia. Its eastern extent goes all the way toward the west. So the kings of the east are going to have to cooperate somehow militarily for this to happen.

And we're seeing two of the biggest ones - Russia, which has the most land, and China, which has almost the most people - increasing their cooperation.

Speaker 2 - Steve Dupuie: Don't some teach that Russia is the King of the North?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Bob Thiel: Yeah, but contrary to teachings of people like the late Hal Lindsey, who was a Protestant, Russia is not the King of the North. There is no power north and east of Russia, so it doesn't fit geographically. That rules it out as the King of the North.

Speaker 2 - Steve Dupuie: What other prophecies involve Europe and Russia?

Speaker 3 - Dr. Bob Thiel: Well, for example, Jeremiah. We're talking about end-time European Babylon, starting in Jeremiah 50:1. Verse 2 says, in the wording being cited here, "Proclaim among the nations; don't conceal it. Babylon is taken. From out of the north a nation comes against her."

Because the King of the North can be bothered by somebody from farther north. Verse 41 says, "Behold, a people comes from the north. A great nation and many kings will be raised up. They'll go against you, O daughter of Babylon." Verse 43 says that the king of Babylon - this is the European King of the North - has heard a report about them. His hands grow feeble; anguish has taken hold of him like the pangs of a woman in childbirth.

And Russia will be the leading power of that north and come against the European empire, which is the daughter of Babylon.

I mentioned Herbert Armstrong, and he talked about Babylon in the 17th chapter of Revelation. He says this is the daughter of Babylon, and he talks about scriptures such as Jeremiah 50. He says, "Declare this among the nations." Now, this is against Babylon.

These countries are coming against what you call Catholic Europe, and Russia is to the north. Out of the north there comes a nation against her. So that's what Herbert Armstrong wrote in '82.

So we've got this northern confederation that also extends to the east. That suggests that Russia is basically the leader of it, and they're going to destroy end-time Babylon.

Also, Jeremiah wrote in Jeremiah 50:8-9, New King James, and the wording in the source is partially garbled: "Move from the midst of Babylon. Go out of the land of the Chaldeans and be like the rams before the flocks. For behold, I will raise up and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country. They shall array themselves against her; from there she shall be captured. Their arrows shall be like those of an expert warrior; none shall return in vain." In other words, they're going to hit their target.

And I should mention Isaiah. I skipped that part. But let's go to Isaiah 13, because it's not just Jeremiah who talked about this. Isaiah 13, starting in verse 1: "The burden against Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw. Lift up a banner on the high mountain. Raise your voice to them. Wave your hand, that they may enter the gates of the nobles. I have commanded my sanctified ones; I have also called my mighty ones for my anger, those who rejoice in my exaltation."

"A noise of a multitude in the mountains, like that of many people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together. The Lord of hosts musters the army for battle. They come from a far country, from the end of heaven - the Lord and His weapons of indignation, to destroy the whole land. Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand. It will come as destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands will be limp; every man's heart will melt. They will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them. They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth. They will be amazed at one another; their faces will be like flames."

I think if you compare that to Jeremiah chapter 50, it's talking about the same basic thing. Both these accounts in Jeremiah and Isaiah are talking about the same invaders.

We read in Daniel chapter 11 that something north and east of Europe is going to bother Europe, and we can only be talking then about Russia. But this is not talking about now. This is talking about a later time.

And this particular attack will not happen, by the way, before 2032 or '33. I'm not saying it will happen then, but that's the absolute earliest I think that it can happen. So it's not about to happen now.

Russia is not about to retake Latvia, Estonia, or the Baltic nations up there. So while there likely will be military incursions before that time, biblical prophecies show, in this interpretation, that Russia will conquer much of Europe. But these events don't take place until after the United States and a coming Islamic empire are conquered first.

Those who believe the Bible also know that EzeThiel 38 is not for our age. We need to believe what the Bible actually teaches.

Speaker 2 - Steve Dupuie: Thank you, Dr. Thiel. For more interviews with Dr. Thiel, in addition to written as well as audio articles, visit our website at biblenewsprophecy.net.

This is Steve Dupuie for the Bible News Prophecy Program. This Bible News Prophecy Program was sponsored by the Continuing Church of God. For more information, including access to our free literature, visit biblenewsprophecy.net or www.ccog.org. You can also reach us by email. Our address is [transcribed as "biblenewsprophecy.net"; verify intended email address].