Breaking Glass, Building Belonging: Wanda Herndon on Leadership, Resilience, and the Power of Yes

Speaker Identification

Speaker 1 – Announcer / Prerecorded Intro and Outro Voice
The opening and closing station/show identification are presented separately from the interview and appear to be prerecorded promotional material.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson
The transcript identifies Pamela L. Henderson by name at the beginning of the program. She introduces the guest, asks the interview questions, shares stories from her own life and foundation work, and closes the interview.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon
The host introduces Wanda Herndon as the featured guest. Her identity is reinforced throughout the interview through discussion of her career, her memoir, her family history, and her experience at Starbucks.

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Speaker 1 – Announcer / Prerecorded Intro Voice:

Welcome to All Roads 65 Max Radio, where the road ahead gets brighter as we journey toward truth, traveling through our dreams and inspiration into a new reality. It’s time, and your ticket is waiting.

All Roads 65 Max Radio with Pamela Henderson.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Greetings. Thank you for joining me on BBS Radio, All Roads 65 Max Radio. I am your host, Pamela L. Henderson.

Established in 2011, my focus and mission are to help create a quality of life through social growth, inspiring youth to become leaders by establishing partnerships with corporations, entrepreneurs, donors, sponsors, volunteers, the community, and abroad.

Please join me every other Tuesday at noon on BBS Radio, All Roads 65 Max Radio, and follow us at allroads65max.org.

My special guest today is Ms. Wanda Herndon, an award-winning communications executive, author, and trailblazer, best known as the first senior vice president of global communications for Starbucks Coffee Company. Wanda’s path from a working-class African American family in Flint, Michigan, to leadership roles at Dow Chemical, DuPont, and Starbucks gives her a grounded, unscripted perspective on ambition, belonging, and what leadership asks of women who are often the first.

Wanda feels especially aligned with the way a recent episode makes space for hard truths around trauma, accountability, vulnerability, and service in protecting women and their families. Wanda’s memoir, Working Class to Breaking Glass, brings that to the page with real clarity.

At last, I want to say thank you, Ms. Herndon, and welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Thank you very much. And please call me Wanda. I feel like we’re kindred spirits, so please.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

And where are you located?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Pardon me?

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Where are you located?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t hear that. I am in Seattle, Washington.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Okay. And how’s the weather?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

It is beautiful. This is one of the better summers that I’ve experienced here in Seattle. It is absolutely glorious—azure blue skies, 70-degree weather, bright sunshine. I love it here.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

You’ve got to come out here to California. I live in this little valley. Have you heard of Concord, California, or Walnut Creek, California?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Oh, yeah. I used to work for Dow Chemical, and one of the facilities was in Walnut Creek, California.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Okay, okay.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

I used to come out quite a bit, and I think I have good friends in California.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Okay, okay. Well, we’ve been around 99 to 103 degrees.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Oh, no, I love it. I like taking off clothes versus putting on clothes, so I love it.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

I have a lot of questions. You are a very fascinating woman, I’m going to say. My goodness.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Thank you. You’re going to make me blush.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

We deserve it.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Right. We deserve it.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

I’m going to start with this main question. Your father’s dream for you was simple but powerful. That really touched me. You should get a job—an office job, you said. What did that phrase mean to you as a child, and how did its meaning change as your career grew?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Thank you for that question, because my dad is such an inspiration to me. As a matter of fact, my dad lives with me now. He’s lived with me for years, and he’ll be 99 on September 13th.

He’s a trailblazer as well because he blazed the path for his children and his family to get those office jobs. My father worked at General Motors, which was great because it gave us a financial foundation, a roof over our heads, and all the rest of that. But it wasn’t clean work. You go to work, come home, and after being on the factory floor assembling cars, you’re a little dusty and dirty.

Dad wanted his kids, especially me because I was a daddy’s girl, to get an office job because he saw those people as the power brokers—the people in charge, the people who didn’t get dirty at work. They were decision-makers.

That’s what he meant when he said “an office job.” He meant becoming a decision-maker who could go to work, make decisions, come home, and have more than a job—have a career.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Absolutely. I was a daddy’s girl, too.

I started working when I was 14 as a hostess. I moved up at Denny’s from being a hostess to a service coordinator to a waitress. I kept going because I was so interested in the industry, and then I moved into hospitality and restaurant management.

By the time I was about 22, I wanted to go to Vegas, and my dad was totally against it. He said, “Oh, no, you’re not going there.”

As I got older, my journey became corporate. I worked and became an assistant general manager with Red Lobster. You couldn’t tell me anything then. I felt like I was ready for everything.

To make a long story short, I didn’t go the Vegas route because my father was really watching over me at that time. But the route I did take kept me in leadership roles, and I really loved it. I love what I do. I’m passionate, and that’s the reason I do what I do—to give back.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Yes. I’m quite impressed with your foundation. Of course, I had to do my homework. You are extremely impressive, and you’re doing great work. You are lifting others up.

That is our responsibility as leaders, especially women of color and African American women. We have to extend that hand to those who need a hand.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Yes, ma’am.

When you look back at Flint, what did growing up in a working-class General Motors town teach you about ambition, survival, and possibility?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

It taught me that you had to be focused. You had to be strong. You had to learn how to hear “no” but not accept “no” as the answer.

That’s the key to ambition. You get around that no.

I tell people all the time, every time I heard “no,” I actually didn’t hear it. I heard the word “yes.” That’s what inspired me. I never accepted no.

I used to laugh about that. I’d say, “Tell me no if you want to, but I’m going to show you.”

That’s what you had to do.

My neighborhood was not a bad neighborhood, but we had kids who didn’t make it out—kids who went to jail or, unfortunately, were killed by rivals. I didn’t want a life like that, and my dad didn’t want that for me.

So it taught me what I didn’t want. Looking beyond my neighborhood, I could see the possibilities.

It also taught me that there are people out there who will help you exceed expectations if you leave your neighborhood. I loved growing up in Flint, Michigan. I loved my neighborhood. I still have some friends there.

But I knew that wasn’t my path. I didn’t see myself living in Flint for the rest of my life. Since my dad wanted me to get an office job, I knew that office job had to be outside of Flint, Michigan.

So ambition kicked in, and I laid out a path for myself. My parents didn’t know how to do that for me, so I had help from others. They helped me lay out my path, leave my neighborhood, try new things, and grab the possibilities, which eventually allowed me to help others.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Beautiful. Thank you.

How is Flint, Michigan, doing now? I remember that water issue.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

I get kind of sad about this because when I grew up in Flint in the ’50s, ’60s, and ’70s, it was a boomtown, baby.

You may have worked at General Motors, but you had money. You could afford to live there. We got the extras. It wasn’t like we were on welfare. We were not. Let’s be clear—not all Black people were on welfare. We were not on welfare.

I wasn’t riding around as a 16-year-old with a brand-new car as my birthday gift, but I did have access to my mother’s car.

Flint was booming. We had retail. We had restaurants. We had everything. It was a fun time. I might as well have been living in Las Vegas.

When I went back over the years, it steadily went downhill after General Motors left our communities, took its business, and went elsewhere. It became quite desolate.

It got so bad that there were boarded-up houses near where my father lived. I tried to buy him a house elsewhere. He wouldn’t leave Flint, but I was nervous about him living where there were boarded-up houses.

When I would come home to visit him—my mother passed away in 1992, unfortunately—he didn’t want me to go out at night.

When you take hope away from people and they’re living in despair, they may do desperate things. He didn’t want me to become a victim of people who were willing to do desperate things to survive.

So it hurts my heart to see Flint the way it is today—not booming, just barely surviving—because I remember what it was.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Wow. I was born and raised in Oakland, California. When I was growing up, the leadership was a little different. We had the Black Panthers, and the leadership was very, very strong.

We had retail stores, just like you’re speaking about in Flint. I look at it now and think about how you can go to Japantown or Chinatown. Where is ours?

We talk about how we are growing and the things we are doing. I think Black and African American people are at the top of the game just like any other culture. Look at all the different leadership jobs and political leadership positions they’re in.

We have to get to a point where we get that community back—not just talk about it, but be about it. That is the truth of moving forward.

I also have a question from reading about you. You write about your father leaving the Jim Crow South for Flint with very little money and a great deal of hope. Very inspiring. How did that bus ride become part of your own leadership story?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

I have to tell you—and you’ve probably experienced the same thing—I did not learn Black history in school, in the public school system. There might have been a paragraph or two in a history book.

When I realized that my father and my family were part of the Great Migration of Black people from the South to the North, I was brought to tears because you’re often made to feel that you don’t belong, that you don’t have a place in history.

This was major. The Great Migration helped power industry in the ’50s, ’60s, and ’70s.

Who was in that Great Migration? Black people.

My dad took that long bus ride with two boxes of chicken, pound cake, and light bread from LaGrange, Georgia, to Flint so we could have a better life.

How did that inspire me? It inspired me to know that if my father could do that—if he could have that kind of vision—I could honor his vision and do great things.

He never talked about that bus ride in the same way because I don’t think he was taught that history, either.

The Great Migration put us in Flint, Michigan. That bus ride positioned him for General Motors, positioned our family for home ownership and college, and positioned my entire family for a better life. It elevated our experience.

That’s what that bus ride meant. He could have been on a jet. He was on a bus, but for all I care, he could have been in a private jet. In my mind, my dad was the captain of that flight.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Wow.

I’ve never really gotten deeply into the Jim Crow situation. Even when I say it, it just doesn’t sound good to me—Jim Crow.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Same with me. Jim Crow. Just call it segregation and racism. Call it what it is.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Absolutely.

I have heard about it, but I just haven’t gotten deeply into it. I guess the reason is that where I am in life right now, I stopped allowing people to put in my head that because we were enslaved, we can’t move forward.

I’m not saying things aren’t still happening. We still have to deal with racism and things of that nature. But I look at it this way: when racism presents itself, then I’ll deal with it. I’ll put racism in its place.

But I’m not going to allow anyone to tell me I can’t have what anyone else can have. I may have to work harder and bring it to light, but look at us. Look at you. You’re an inspiration to me.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Oh, thank you. You’re an inspiration to me.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Thank you. I appreciate that, because I don’t get that much from our culture. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Can I share a story about that?

You said you don’t get that much from our culture. The reason I landed at Starbucks as the first senior vice president of global communications, who happens to be an African American woman, was that an African American woman was in a senior HR position at Starbucks, and she took a chance on me.

She didn’t believe there could only be one, or that you had to walk on people to get ahead. No. That’s not good.

So I hear you. Know that you are appreciated.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Thank you. Thank you so much.

You became one of the first in your extended family to attend college. What did that responsibility feel like, and what do you understand about it now?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

I knew it was a gift, and I knew I had to succeed. Even though I stumbled and bumbled along the way, I knew I could not fail because I knew I had to make a way out of no way for others coming behind me—whether that was a family member or anyone who didn’t think they had the opportunity to succeed.

That’s what it meant. It just had to be done. I had to succeed for myself and for others.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

That’s powerful.

Moving on, you originally pursued journalism. How did your training as a journalist shape the communicator and executive you eventually became?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

I tell everybody all the time that the foundation of any good business is its ability to communicate—to its employees, its customers, and the world.

You have to be able to articulate a message. That’s why journalists are very important in this world.

Think about the news right now. If it weren’t for journalists, we might not know all the ins and outs of decisions that are being made that power the world.

Coming into a corporation and knowing you have to shape the messages that are the foundation of any business strategy is powerful.

I had to learn just how crucial the journalist in me was—the ability to make subjects and verbs agree, to understand that you must have a subject, and to tell a story in a way that people understand.

We learned that in eighth-grade grammar.

When you think about the problems in the world, they usually stem from a failure to communicate.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

So true.

One thing I have learned on this journey is that, as a journalist, you have to be your authentic self. You have to be able to communicate that message and not worry about how the message is being received when you’re telling the truth.

I’m not saying you should just be outright harsh all the time. However, it’s your message. It’s your opinion.

I have gone through challenges and obstacles, and I take those experiences with me. When I’m talking with someone and trying to give them a message, I’m going to take the experience I have already journeyed through and share that with you.

Whether you react by saying, “Oh, my God,” or anything else, it’s still the message. I want you to understand the authentic me and where I’m coming from as I move forward.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Yes. Authenticity is key.

I was taught never to allow anyone else to define me. In my book, I talk about being the CEO of me. I am in control. No one else is in control of Wanda Herndon.

Even when I work for another individual, I still have the option to change my situation.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

So true. That was my next question.

You described making your first executive decision as the CEO of yourself. I love that.

When you decided you would figure out how to pay for college, what did that moment teach you about self-leadership? That’s where we have to put our big-girl pants on and be about it.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Let me tell you something, Pamela. I was in a state of high anxiety because girlfriend did not want to go home.

I was 18 years old. I was on my own. Somebody was going to pay for this college education.

I knew I had to be resourceful. It taught me that it’s not shameful to ask for help.

I had a roommate who was street-smart and book-smart, Jody Thompson, out of Detroit. I asked her, another Black girl, “How are you paying for college?” She looked good. She had nice clothes. She didn’t seem stressed.

I thought, “There’s a big difference here. I want some of that.”

So I talked to her, and she told me how to work with financial aid at Michigan State University.

It taught me how to be resourceful and how to ask for help. That’s the big lesson.

After that point, I was never fearful of asking for help. There’s nothing wrong with that. You don’t have to accept the help. You may not like what someone tells you, but you’re the CEO of you. You decide what you’re going to take and use.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

That’s just like school. When we don’t know something, we have to become resourceful.

I taught that to my grandson. He’s very smart, but he just doesn’t like math. He went all the way up to geometry and trigonometry, but he hated it.

When you become very smart and feel like you have the answers, then something hits you and you say, “Oh, I don’t know this,” you can close up.

I was telling him and explaining to him that no question is a stupid question.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Correct.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

We learn because when we’re trying to do things right, or when we want to make sure we understand what we’re doing, we have to ask.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

There’s no shame in asking a question. Just raise your hand.

What’s shameful is when you don’t ask and you fail at something you really didn’t want to fail at.

It’s okay to fail, but make sure it’s not something you really wanted to succeed at when you had the opportunity to ask for help.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

That is true.

At Michigan State, you confronted financial stress, imposter syndrome, and the feeling that you might not belong. How did you learn to keep moving even when confidence wasn’t there?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Pamela, I didn’t want to go back home. I didn’t want to fail my family because I knew a lot was riding on me.

Just like when my dad rode that bus, a lot was riding on that decision for our family.

I knew that my success was my family’s success, and that I was standing on the shoulders of our ancestors.

I didn’t want to let anybody down, especially myself.

I’m not a visionary, or I don’t claim to be one, but I knew that if I failed, somebody else might not get a chance.

I wanted others in my family and beyond to have the opportunities I had, so I couldn’t squander them. That was my motivation.

Even when people wanted me to believe I didn’t belong, when they said “no,” I heard “yes.”

That’s how I motivated myself, because failure was not an option, as the old saying goes.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

So true.

The same thing happened with my foundation. I established my foundation in 2011.

There’s that old saying, “If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.” But I looked at what was happening and realized something was broken.

What made me establish my foundation was a situation I went through with my daughter involving domestic violence.

In 2009, there were very limited resources for young women like her. They needed resources to help them keep going and to be able to go in front of a judge and say, “Yes, Your Honor, I do have a job. I am attending this work program through this foundation or nonprofit. I’m doing A, B, and C.”

Then the judge could help them continue moving forward without losing their children.

That is one reason foster care can become involved. These young women get into situations involving domestic violence, and sometimes their children are removed because neglect can occur while the mother is suffering and the children are suffering, too.

You can lose your job, your home, your car.

Back in 2009, what they often had to offer was a counseling class and anger management. I looked at that and thought they needed more.

Especially with my daughter, it was hard for her to understand that I understood she had been abused, but she still had to take accountability for herself.

That’s why I teach today about communication skills.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Great.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Like what we’re doing right now. It’s all about communication skills. It’s learning how to navigate through pain and trauma, as you stated earlier, and not be ashamed.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

You cannot be ashamed.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Absolutely. That’s one of the biggest issues—being ashamed of the decisions or situations you’ve been through. But that’s accountability, as we know.

You’ve written about being a first and only in many rooms. What is the emotional cost of being the first, and what responsibility comes with it?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

For me, there were times I was anxious. There were times I felt I had to pump myself up and say, “I can do this. I can do this.”

That self-talk that I heard you discuss with Dr. Shelton—you have to use it.

I felt like I had to make sure I was on top of my game. I had to make sure I had done my homework so that when I spoke, I spoke with some wisdom and some truth.

It’s hard to never relax until people understand and recognize your talent. It’s just the way it is. You have to prove yourself a lot—sometimes every day.

I used to say that’s true until you get the top spot, but that’s not true. Even when you’re at the top, you have to maintain your right to be there.

Your work—the work that you do and how you deliver—supports that you belong. You have to show them instead of telling them.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

That’s right. You have to deliver.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

If you don’t deliver, you don’t belong.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

That’s so true.

Tell me about this memoir.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Working Class to Breaking Glass is one woman’s fight to belong and to lead.

It’s really a combination kind of book. It’s a memoir, an autobiography, a history lesson, and the story of my family.

It chronicles my father’s journey from the South to the North and how that inspired me to live the life I’ve been so blessed to live—to earn the right to be in the room because of the sacrifices he made.

I was told all the time, like a lot of kids are told, “You can be anything. You can do anything.”

Those are words, but you have to put them into action.

That’s what this book is about. It shares my journey.

I don’t tell anybody how to do anything. I just say, “This is how I did it.”

I’m hoping the reader can take what they need from my story to help them along the way.

I tell people all the time that I cannot stand books that say, “The ten lessons to be a successful executive,” or “The five lessons to become a multimillionaire.”

No. Read my book. This is how I did it.

I’ve had some incredible experiences, thanks to a lot of mentors, thanks to my own perseverance, thanks to my own hard work, and thanks to people believing in me.

If you can take something from this book, please do so. That’s my gift to you.

I wanted to give people hope during a time when they may feel hopeless.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Absolutely.

In the book, you developed what you call “Wanda-isms.” I love that—fearless honesty, humor, and joy in the face of hard truth.

What is one Wanda-ism every leader should learn?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

I’ve got a few of them, but let me share a couple that I keep telling people.

I wrote them down so I wouldn’t forget, because a lot of times I’ll say something and people go, “God, that was great,” and then I’m like, “What did I just say?”

I tell people: look up. Don’t look sideways. Don’t look back. Keep your eyes up, because that’s where you’re headed. You’re moving on up, just like The Jeffersons.

I tell people to be fearless, but be smart.

Help somebody, because real leaders are not just focused on themselves. They help others.

And be the CEO of yourself. You’re in control.

The one thing I want people to remember is: you are worthy. Keep it moving. Don’t let anybody ever stop you.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Great message.

I want to talk about this because I was at a roundtable and we were talking about bosses and leaders.

It’s so interesting to me. In my opinion, a boss is totally different from a leader.

Sometimes the girls in my program say, “Boss, can I go?” and I always correct them. I’m not a boss. I am a leader because I lead by example and inspire you to move forward.

To me, a boss can tear people down, while a leader should build people up.

We have a lot of leaders who have gone through challenges and obstacles and now have the opportunity to lead for the betterment of the world.

What do you think about that?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

I’d rather work with a leader than a boss because a leader will give me the latitude to do my work in a way that is more creative and productive.

A leader will inspire me and help me develop and grow.

A boss, to me, is just telling me what to do. I don’t need that.

I need to be energized and compensated for the great work I do. I don’t need anybody just telling me, “Go do this. Go do that.” You might as well be a robot.

A leader will give you the range to explore, to do, and to give back—not only to your company in a way that helps it grow, but also to individuals and to your community.

It’s all one big circle to me: your work, your community, your family, your friends. It’s a continuous circle of giving.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

So true.

A leader also doesn’t have any qualms about who else is moving forward.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Oh, gosh, no. A leader knows who they are.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Exactly.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

A leader should not be threatened by those who have gone before them or those who are coming up the pipeline.

You have to be secure in yourself.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Absolutely.

How did you learn to speak directly without being dismissed? There are stereotypes about women being punished for telling the truth.

We spoke about authenticity earlier.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

I’ve always been the way I am, and I’ve never been afraid to speak directly.

I was criticized about it when I moved from the East Coast to the West Coast because people are more laid-back out here.

I don’t have a lot of time to waste with pretty words, but I do know how to be respectful.

I’m not going to say something outrageous just for the sake of it. I’m trained as a journalist, so I know how to be tactful.

I’ve always been outspoken. I’ve always been a straight shooter, but in a way that didn’t diminish or insult people. It’s just my nature.

I’ve never been afraid.

If you read one of Howard Schultz’s books, he called me a wise, straight-talking professional.

I came that way, fully formed.

I was the kid in my family who would challenge my dad, who was the head of the household. He was not absent. He was there.

But I did it in a way that was respectful.

When I got to corporate America, somehow it just happened naturally, Pamela. I was able to say hard truths and end with a smile by saying something like, “I don’t understand. Can you help me understand how we can come to an agreement on this?”

If we need to agree to disagree, I’m willing to work with you toward a common solution and not leave the room angry.

I learned some of that on the job, but I didn’t come in as a shy person.

I wore my hair the way I wanted. I dressed the way I wanted. If people were wearing black, I might have been in red or pink.

But I did the work.

That’s what I keep telling people: you can be your authentic self if you prove you can do the work.

I was raised by a father who taught me to speak up and a mother who taught me to be respectful of others.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Absolutely.

When you joined Starbucks, the company was entering a period of major growth. What did you learn about protecting culture while a company is scaling so quickly?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Put people first and share the rewards with the people who run the company—from the top to the bottom.

You have to build teams. Nobody does this alone.

I realized how humane this company was when I joined because the caring was just so different.

People were running around finding out how the children were doing and how the parents were doing, offering to help people.

That sharing is what I learned.

That’s how Starbucks was able to grow so rapidly, because everybody had a stake in the company. Everybody had a stake in it.

We were making it happen together.

You have to make people know that they belong. And if we win, we all win.

That’s what I learned coming in the door, running a thousand miles an hour with my hair on fire.

It was worth it.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

I’ve always liked the family atmosphere in corporations. I think that works because people need to know that you care. They need to know they matter and that they have a voice.

It’s not just about putting rules and policies out there. It’s always good to get feedback about what we can do better so that we improve and people feel good about being part of it.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Right. You have to motivate and inspire, and you have to share.

You share in the success. You share the success of the company.

That’s how Starbucks was able to grow so fast, because everybody shared in the success.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

You helped shape Starbucks communications during a pivotal era. What do companies often misunderstand about the role of communications in leadership?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Companies often relegate communications to a non-significant contributor.

But in truth, communications can drive marketing because of key messaging. It drives employee retention because of the key messages. It drives customer interest because of the communications.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Loyalty.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Yes.

If you forget all that and you don’t develop messages for your key audiences, then your business strategy will be ineffective.

When you forget that, in my opinion, you’re doomed to fail.

You have to elevate communications so your various audiences know what you’re talking about, what you’re selling, what you’re thinking, and how you’re helping your communities.

There is such a thing as social responsibility.

You have to make sure that people know who you are as a brand.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Absolutely.

You write candidly about racism, sexism, and the subtle ways bias appears at work. What should leaders understand about the difference between inclusion on paper and belonging in practice?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

One of the things I fought for was to be heard—and to be heard with understanding.

I needed to see that my ideas and opinions were acted upon.

If they’re not executed or acted upon, then I know I don’t belong. I know I’m not valued.

Let me say it another way: if you see that nobody’s paying attention to you, there’s a problem.

Once you see that your opinions are valued and your ideas are executed, then you know you belong.

But there are some people who may never value you, for whatever reason. You have to move them aside or work around them because you can’t change that in some people.

I’m not about trying to change anybody. I’m trying to be who I am and do my work.

If I need to maneuver around you to get the job done, I know how to do that as well.

That’s what I want people to understand when they read this book: don’t let an obstacle stop you. Figure out how to work around it in the situation you’re dealing with.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

You write about “vibe” as part of organizational culture. How can leaders tell whether their company’s vibe is healthy, performative, or broken?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

People will show you what’s happening in the organization by the way they interact with each other and by whether your retention numbers are high or low.

If people are leaving your company in droves, the vibe is a problem. The culture is a problem.

That’s an easy one for me.

Are you able to retain your people and motivate them? Do they feel good about coming to work?

You know that as a leader.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Yes. That is so true.

I always say that when I go certain places. You can walk into a restaurant and tell by the staff.

You can go to the DMV, and my God, sometimes I’m like, “I will give you guys some training for free. You guys just get your jobs together.”

You can tell immediately. You can feel it in the air.

You see how people interact with each other. If people are snipping and sniping at each other, or if they’re laughing, talking, acting like they genuinely care, or going to lunch together, you know what the vibe is.

If people always want to sit in their offices by themselves, there may be a problem.

That’s one example I had to give because the DMV—I understand it. Working for the DMV, you deal with all sorts of issues and concerns.

But here’s the thing: like I tell executives, it doesn’t matter. This is our role. This is what we do. We have to understand and accept that customer service is our job.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

At Starbucks, the customer-service model was just say yes.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Yes.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Just say yes. Very simple.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

I keep hearing yes.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Yes is a powerful word.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

It is. And “no” is a motivator.

That’s where I stood when I established my foundation and people weren’t ready for the change. I just kept going.

When someone shut a door, I was okay with that. I went around the back door and kept going.

I shared information, and I just felt that, yes, I belong, and this is who I am. That yes worked itself out.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Did you read my book before I wrote it?

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

I’m into it a little bit. I want to download it and get it because it will be good even for the young women who come through my foundation, especially those dealing with trauma.

That’s what it’s all about—building that confidence level.

People sometimes look at confidence and say, “Oh, she thinks she’s all that.”

Here’s the thing: I am, because I did the work.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Yes, you are.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

I am all that.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Yes, you are.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

One of the young women I worked with had a very hard time accepting her situation—her mother being a drug addict, her being a drug addict, her father, and all the rest of the circumstances in her life.

She was taking all of that to heart.

Anytime I get a young girl or young woman with these issues, I try to make myself available as a mentor through one-on-one conversations. I want her to feel comfortable and know she’s not the only person who has gone through this.

To make a long story short, she asked me one day, “You have such high confidence. Have people ever thought you think you’re better than someone?”

I told her, yes, I have had that said to me before, but it’s not about that.

When you have gone through trauma, trials, and tribulations and created your own blueprint—when nobody would support you and you designed it and created it yourself—yes, you develop confidence.

I’m one of those women who is real chipper, and I’m an empath at the same time.

But girl, you have to keep looking up. You have to keep it moving.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

In my book, you agree. You have to keep it moving. And when you move, look up.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Look up. Absolutely.

What advice would you give women, especially women of color, who are navigating rooms where they are underestimated or underrepresented? I think I fit in that category as well.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

I’ve said a little bit of it before.

Don’t let others define you.

When you hear “no,” don’t get discouraged, because that no is actually yes. See it as an opportunity to show why you belong.

Let your work speak for itself.

Also—and I learned this the hard way—take a few moments to get to know your colleagues.

Let them know something about you. Let them feel they know you, even though they may not know your whole life story.

Let them in a little bit because you never want to self-select yourself to the outside of your work community.

I was really private. I was kind of shy when I started, and I realized, “These people don’t know me. That’s why they think I have a chip on my shoulder. They think this or that.”

They needed to get to know me. They needed to know that I like to have a good time, that I’m competent, and that while I’m being competent, I also like people.

Now, if I don’t like you, that’s a whole other story.

But most people I do like, and I want them to know something about me because you never know when your paths are going to cross and when you’re going to need each other.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

That’s a nugget right there, because being misunderstood is a journey.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Yes, it is.

I have been misunderstood over the years, and my communication skills have helped me clarify difficult situations and straighten out difficult situations.

You have to be willing to talk it out, baby.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Absolutely. I agree.

That’s what I did with my blueprint. I shared it with the schools, and we saw improvements in grades and the momentum of the students.

I shared it with the mayor and with political leadership here in Antioch and Pittsburg. We did the Stand by Your Side event, and it was a success. He did it for three years as well.

I appreciate you bringing that up and making that statement because that is important.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

We know what we know. We’ve lived it.

This is our lived experience we’re talking about.

If people want to learn from that, that’s a gift that we, you, and our families are giving to them.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Absolutely.

What is your future going forward? Where do you see yourself within the next five to ten years?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

I see myself writing maybe a couple more books about whatever comes to me.

I want to keep my writing muscle active. I found this process kind of strange, but quite enjoyable, and writing has always been my passion.

Over the next five years, I’d like to become a best-selling author, and I think I’m on my way with Working Class to Breaking Glass.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

How did you come up with that title? I love it.

When I was writing and getting all my questions together, the title just reached me.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

It was kind of weird.

I was working with an editor, and a team presented three book titles to me. One of them was Good Trouble, and we know who said that.

There was also wording about one woman’s fight to transcend from working class to breaking glass and another subtitle about leading and belonging.

I looked at those titles and said, “You guys don’t understand. I will get roasted if I try to publish a book entitled Good Trouble. That belongs to John Lewis.”

So I sat on it for four days.

I started playing with words and asked myself, “What words in all these titles they gave me resonate with me?”

That’s how I got to Working Class to Breaking Glass. I took part of one of the subtitles and made it the title.

Then I changed the subtitle because one version made it sound like it was only one Black woman’s fight.

I said, “No. This is everybody’s fight. This is every woman’s fight.”

That’s how I came up with it, because I wanted this book to be for everyone.

Even though there’s a lot of Black history and Black experience in there, I can’t get away from the fact that I’m Black, and I’m proud of it.

But let’s be open to others, which I am all the time. I believe in a diverse world, even though some people don’t.

If you look at the cover of my book, it’s a woman with dreadlocks, because I had dreadlocks for years. It’s graphic and kind of artsy, but just look—you’ll see me in there.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Okay. You’ll see me on the cover. There’s no mistaking it.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

That’s right.

Playing around with the words, I came from a working-class, blue-collar neighborhood.

Guess what? I broke some glass.

I didn’t break through the ceiling all the way. No one really has yet, but I did put some cracks in it.

That’s how that works.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

That’s catchy. I love it.

When I read books, I want something catchy because the title itself can make me want to go ahead and read the whole book.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Oh, God, that makes me feel good.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Kudos.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

I spent some sleepless nights trying to get that title right because I thought, “I can’t believe these folks presented Good Trouble to me.”

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Especially when you go through publishing companies and they try to tell you they have the answers for you, and sometimes they don’t.

The same happened with me. I am the award-winning author of the book A Journey of a Sapphire.

I took the journey I had gone through, and the book is for self-help. It brings awareness and inspiration. It will probably make you cry because my journey was absolutely horrific.

At the end, with all the accolades I have, you can look at me now and see how I managed to move forward. That’s what it’s about.

Speaking of titles, with A Journey of a Sapphire, people kept suggesting different Sapphire titles to me.

I had to let them know, “It’s not your book. It’s my book. This is me.”

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Yes.

I remember Sapphire was on Amos ’n’ Andy. The wife was Sapphire.

That was my era. Those were the Black people I saw on TV, and I thought, “Okay, that’s the stereotype we want to dispel.”

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

That’s right.

Now I’m working on my second book.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Oh, good.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

It’s called The Destination of a Sapphire.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Okay.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Sapphire is going to be in it because she has been through some hell.

You have to look at her and look at the accolades and how she has navigated.

So I’m still working on my title, but that’s one of my main titles right there.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

There are going to be many titles before you publish.

My book went through so many iterations.

I’m so proud of where I landed because, man, there were times when I thought, “Will this ever get done? How many times am I going to rewrite the same paragraph?”

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

That’s what I’m doing right now.

It seems like every time I write something, I think, “Oh, but this happened,” or “That happened.”

One thing I learned from writing my first book is: write what is coming out of your mind and stop going over it.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Yes. Leave it alone because that’s the paragraph.

You have to be finished sometimes.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

You do. Otherwise, you just keep going.

With that being said, it was a pleasure having you on my show. I look forward to bringing you back.

I am so inspired by your journey and what you have done, and here you are on my show. I am so proud. I’m so happy.

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

Before you go, do you have a word of the day?

Speaker 3 – Guest, Wanda Herndon:

Fight.

Fight for what is yours, and the world is yours.

Speaker 2 – Host, Pamela L. Henderson:

By Wanda Herndon.

Yes, you have to keep fighting, baby.

I have reached my destination. Until next time, have a beautiful blessing.

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