LEO Roundtable: News & Issues

[00:00] Speaker 1: (instrumental music plays) Welcome to Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I'm your host. We're a group of law enforcement professionals that talk about today's news and issues, but we do it from a law enforcement perspective. And, yes, we have Dr. Joel Schultz on the show, retired police chief currently residing in Colorado. Was cracking jokes about him going duck hunting the day after the show. I don't know where I got that idea from. Uh, for, for our, for our Audible listeners, he's got a, he's got that, he's got the outfit on, I'm telling you. I mean, this guy's got duck hunting written all over him. And he's in Colorado. Do I, need I say more? So, uh, I, I like... But I, I like the threads. I like the threads, Chief. I like, I like it.

[00:51] Speaker 2: Do you, do you recognize the NRA logo on my cap?

[00:53] Speaker 1: Well, I did, I did not. I did not. So very, very cool. So, uh, so thanks for being on the show, Chief. Um, also a shout, you know, to our sponsors, guys. You know, our title sponsor is gulls@gulls.com. Don't forget, they are giving us that special discount code to get 15% off your next purchase. It is RADIO15. So go to gulls.com, type in RADIO15 in order to get 15% off your next purchase. What a, what a great opportunity. Don't ever say we never gave you anything. And look, the chief even just wrote that number down, that discount code. Anyhow, we have Comply Technologies, our satellite sponsor, and hey, yes, we are in the process now of trying to transition from satellite radio with Westwood One, which is for radio stations, to Sirius XM, which is for the end consumer. We will let you guys know how that progresses.

[01:35] Speaker 1: Also, we have gunlearn.com, mymedicare.live, safeguardrecruiting.com, helping fulfill your agency's, uh, recruitment requirements, and they're also allowing us to stream right now, they're a streaming sponsor, to about a million followers during the live show. And twobells.com, they built a new online store at leoroundtable.com, so check that out. A shout-out to Brian Burns for the Tampa Free Press at tampafe.com, Ray Detrick from alarman.com, Travis Yates, lawoficer.com. Thanks to all those guys for helping us, uh, get this, uh, show out there. And yeah, guys, uh, people are telling me, "Tell us how we can listen to the show. Are you on podcast?" Yes, we're on every major and, and, and minor podcast platform that is out there. Um, I lost count. When we had it, we were at like, we had 20, a couple went offline, we were down to 18, and then we hired BBS Radio to take over the operation a year ago, and I c- I can't even count how many people were on.

[02:24] Speaker 1: But if you want to go to Spotify, Apple iTunes, all the gamut, we're there. We're on 47 radio stations around the country, and we're on social media, Rumble, uh, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Truth Social. Go to leoroundtable.com, that's got all of our outlets, all the radio stations, the dates, the times, uh, the, the, the, um, you know, what frequency to tune in, all that stuff in order to watch the show. So, uh, so check it out. So, um, before we go and we talk about, we wet the appetite with stories, I gotta tell you, I gotta tell you a story what happened to me yesterday. Now, the chief has been waiting to hear this, and I di- I wanted to tell it on the air. So I brag about how we roll in Florida. I was telling the story yesterday or the day before about how even if it's like 20, 30 degrees out, we're wearing flip-flops and we got our jeans or our winter coat on or whatever. It's just the way we roll in Florida, you know?

[03:11] Speaker 1: Uh, your feet just get, like, numb to the, uh, to the weather, you know, but you're wearing your flip-flops. So I'm out walking the dog with my wife, uh, yesterday, and it's still daylight. And I see this guy. I, I live in a gated community, and this guy's riding by on a bike. He's got, like, a milk crate on the back of it, and he's got some fishing stuff on it. So I'm thinking the guy probably doesn't live in my d- in my development. And he rides past us, and I got, we got lakes everywhere. And so he, he, he gets off the, off the, uh, bike lane, off the roadway, and he starts riding along the, uh, the, the lake, the pond right next to where I live. And then he gets off, and I see him doing something, like he's, like, dropping something. I wasn't sure what he was doing, if he's like setting stuff up to do a camp, come back later on at night, 'cause you can really ride a bike into my development. You can't drive a car through it.

[03:57] Speaker 1: You gotta stop at the guard gate, but, you know, there are ways to get in. So I go back to check this out, right? And, uh, my, my wife was supposed to be waiting for me. So I go back there, and I'm looking around, and there's, um, there's, you know, there's a big, you know, it's really a pond there. There's a aquifer kind of a thing with a drain for like overflow and all this other kind of stuff. There's a clay gully. And I'm looking and I, I, I'm having trouble finding things, and I see this rock that looks out of place. It looks like maybe he put it there so he could mark where he hid something when he come back and find it at night. And so I start moving it around, and then, uh, these bushes are right there, and I open up the bushes to see if he put anything in there (laughs) . And all of a sudden, I hear something, bzz, like something, like, buzzing around my, my head. And next thing I know, I'm being attacked by this swarm of, I don't even know what it was.

[04:43] Speaker 2: Oh. Mm-hmm.

[04:43] Speaker 1: And all I know is that they're all, they are all over me. They're on my... I have a Dri-Fit shirt on, of course. They're, like, all over my back left shoulder, biting the, stinging the crap out of me, all over my head, the side of my face, my arms (laughs) . And I start running. While, of course, I'm wearing flip-flops. So I take maybe a couple steps before I go down. My glasses fall off, and I'm trying to pick myself up and put my shoes back on. And, and, and I was worried about... Sometimes these hives are aggressive, and they can, like, chase you. Apparently, that didn't happen, so I lucked out. But yeah, I, I had stings everywhere. So I get my glasses on, and, um, and, uh, anyhow, I ended up, uh... I don't think I broke my right big toe, but it, it's me- it's messed up. I'm just trying to... I was walking back pretty normal, and then all of a sudden it got really difficult. And then I couldn't bend my left arm yesterday, but now it's fine.

[05:34] Speaker 1: But my right arm, I can barely move it now, and it's just... Anyhow, and then I got stings everywhere, guys. So, anyhow, it's just a little... There is a downside to wearing flip-flops in Florida, apparently, and I didn't think about that. If I would've had shoes on, I probably would not have taken the fall. And then I'm on an embankment, so just thank God I didn't roll down, 'cause we haven't had water. It hasn't been raining. So I'm lucky I didn't roll down the embankment into the pond at the bottom where we have the alligator, 'cause I just looked at the alligator that was down there waiting on me. So, uh, it all worked out, Chief. So I don't want you to worry. You don't have to send me a card or anything. It's all good.

[06:05] Speaker 2: Well, that was a pretty dramatic story. I, I hate to start out the show crying like this. This is, uh...

[06:11] Speaker 1: (laughs) It's the way, it's the way we roll. It, it, the only thing that would've made it better is if I would've had the essle- uh, wrestled the alligator at the bottom of the pond if I would've rolled down in there, you know? But...

[06:22] Speaker 2: I would add that, I would add that to the story. I thought you were gonna encounter this guy and he turned out to be a burglar and you fought with him and you threw him to the alligators.

[06:31] Speaker 1: He had, he had just left when I went over there. In fact, we kind of passed each other, but I was gonna... Yeah, no. So, and I never found anything. Or maybe he put the bees or whatever it was there. I don't... And, you know, the sad thing is, I don't know if they're yellow jackets. I don't... I, I, I have no idea. Hornets? I have no idea what these suckers were.

[06:48] Speaker 2: We don't... We had the, we had the, the bee attack story, uh, either Monday or last week, right? Remember the beekeeper?

[06:54] Speaker 1: Yeah. Did we ever... I don't think that we ever covered that, did we? We were, we... I don't think we ever really covered that. We were going to, but, uh...

[06:59] Speaker 2: No, I don't, I don't think we got to it. You, you, you gave a little bit of a, a teaser about it. Uh, but now you can empathize.

[07:05] Speaker 1: Yeah. We, um, we never got to it. So, uh, anyhow. So, so, anyhow. That's how we roll in Florida. Uh, uh, and then Betty Dunn. I'm waiting to see the response to my story, maybe getting some sympa- sympathy, and Betty Dunn types in, "Me too. Plaid looks good on men."

[07:20] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[07:20] Speaker 1: So she's giving the chief... She's hitting on the chief basically during my live show, could care less about me having all the stings and stuff. Oh, now she says she went barefoot in the snow when she first moved back home. All right. (laughs) Okay. Thank you, Betty. We love you, Betty. All right. So, moving along. Um, oh, that's right. We need to, we need to talk about what we're gonna be talking about. So, look, here we go, here we go. And, and guys, we have some great main topics. FBI probes The Atlantic reporter after explosive Patel expose. We got actually two of them, and then we got another one. Federal court blocks FBI from reviewing seized materials of a Washington Post reporter. So, one is classified information. The second one is. The first one is not. It's the one that was kind of like trashing, uh, Kash Patel. Um, so we are going to... I- i- in the end, it may not matter. They both have, they mo- both might be, you know, dealt with the same way by the courts, you know?

[08:08] Speaker 1: I'll let you guys decide. Um, the other one we have is that FBI Director Kash Patel reveal a secret evidence room in, in record-breaking arrest surge. Uh, we've got, um, Maryland PD weighs the impact of a 12-hour patrol shift on officer wellness and staffing. That's a great conversation to get the chief involved in. Federal judge rules that the Pembroke Pines demand for officers' private text messages was invalid under Florida law. Um, they've always had a lot of issues there in Pembroke Pines. We've actually got them on the new leoaffairs.ch, uh, website, you know, under the message boards. Um, we got a man armed with a box cutter fatally shot by Bradley police officers, and then a, uh, Baltimore PD releasing a body cam with another shooting of a 35-year-old bad guy. Oakland police trap does... This is a fantastic video. Oakland cops and San Fran and I think California Highway Patrol, they trap dozens of motorcyclists during an illegal street takeover.

[08:57] Speaker 1: They arrest and they seize all the bikes. It's crazy. And then we got a man with a 13-inch, uh, knife at a New York City grocery store. So, um, I... If you're ready, Chief, I, I... There's a couple of these I really, I really wanna cover. I mean, you know, like, like what happened in San Fran and Portland and stuff, so...

[09:14] Speaker 2: Yeah. Are, are you gonna do the, uh, um, the, the union, uh, guys that got in trouble for countermanding their supervisor on a scheduling issue? Does that ring a bell?

[09:26] Speaker 1: No, it's not... It... I mean, I think it was... Yeah, an old, an old story. I don't know if we covered it or not. I know it's not on our list today. It didn't...

[09:31] Speaker 2: Okay.

[09:31] Speaker 1: You haven't seen the li... I mean, yeah, it's not on our list today, so I think that we actually, I think that we actually covered that, if I'm not mistaken, um, on a previous show.

[09:40] Speaker 2: Okay.

[09:40] Speaker 1: Um, so...

[09:40] Speaker 2: I just, uh... You know, you're... Being a Florida cop and a union guy, I thought you could help me understand what was going on there, so.

[09:46] Speaker 1: All right. Well, uh, maybe... You know, well, this Pembroke Pine things is, uh... Pembroke Pines thing is interesting, uh, but, um, we... We'll... I'll, we'll get with you, I'll get with you later about the other one. So this one, the FBI probes, uh, The Atlantic, which is the publication, uh, reporter after explosive Patel expose. So, we got two articles back to back here. So, in the first one, the FBI has reportedly launched a criminal leak investigation following a series of anonymous allegations that were published in The Atlantic regarding Director Kash Patel's personal conduct. We've all heard about this stuff. He's drink... He drinks, he's a drunkard, all this kind of crap that nobody believes. Uh, according to a report from MS Now, an insider threats unit in Huntsville, Alabama, they're looking into the unauthorized disclosure of information that fueled a recent media firestorm. Now, the investigation stems from a profile, uh, by reporter Sarah Fitzpatrick.

[10:35] Speaker 1: She titled it The FBI Director is MIA, Missing In Action. It cited... Uh, I, I mean, this, this is just ludicrous. She cites two dozen unidentified sources. Of course they're unidentified. The article alleged that Patel... I mean, he's only the director of the FBI, right? Said that he had excessive drinking. It resulted in missed meetings, prompted his security detail to consider using breaching equipment to reach in behind a locked door. Just sounds like a bunch of BS to me. Patel has vehemently denied the claims, characterizing them as a character assassination attempt. He's filed a defamation lawsuit against Fitzpatrick, the reporter, and The Atlantic, uh, while FBI spokesperson Ben Williamson dismissed the MS Now report of a leak probe as completely false. And, and this is, of course... You know, we're... The information is only as good as the source.

[11:19] Speaker 1: Reporters Ken Dillion and Carol, uh, Leonnig, they maintain the bureau is focused on identifying the internal sources who spoke to the magazine. And the investigation, there's, there's some debate over, um, the threat units. They traditionally just look for people that are leaking classified information, and this, it's pretty much a character assassination against the FBI director, so there's some people that have an issue with that. And, uh, the agents, some of the agents are concerned about the optics of investigating journalist sources. So, uh, we're gonna cover that one first, but we're coming up on our first commercial break. But we have two of these journalistic stories back to back. So guys, um, first commercial break. Stick with us. We'll be right back. (instrumental music) My family only cares about one thing, that I come home safe.

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[12:55] Speaker 1: Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlanc and I'm your host. We're joined by Dr. Joel Schulz, retired police chief. And I know I just finished for this one story, but Sharon Caudill just lit us up on, uh, on Facebook. Said that, uh, her husband and her ran across some yellow jackets and, uh, and she said that he got the brunt of it. So it looks like, like Sharon, you made out pretty good then. (laughs) It was your husband that got it. I can... I, I feel the pain. I feel the pain. And then Spook Dog loves skulls too, so thanks for throwing that out there. So this last story, uh, Chief, when we were, uh, we were talking about, um, Kash Patel, uh, being trashed, you know, by a reporter using, what, two dozen multiple sources, or maybe it was a dozen mult- maybe it was a dozen sources that are unnamed at The Atlantic.

[13:40] Speaker 1: And of course, uh, the, the female's name, we've got some other people weighing in, but Sarah Fitzpatrick, and of course them trying to force, you know, who the sources are when they're spreading that misinformation on the director of the, of the, uh, of the FBI. Non-classified information, but what are your thoughts on this, Chief?

[13:58] Speaker 2: You know, it's, it's very, very mixed. Um, I, I think a, uh, case that's going to be before the Supreme Court is going to be one to watch. And, uh, I'm a supporter of the ACLJ, uh, not ACLU but ACLJ, um-

[14:11] Speaker 1: (laughs) Thanks for clarifying that.

[14:11] Speaker 2: ... American Center for, for Law and Justice.

[14:13] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[14:14] Speaker 2: And, and they're taking CNN... They're, they're advocating, um, that CNN be held accountable for obvious lies in their misreporting. Um, and it's not like, oh, it's, it could possibly be a s- be a mistake. It was pretty clearly a, a deliberate, uh, effort to, to provide misinformation with, with lies. Um, so I, I just say that as a background that, that the, uh, court precedence has been like hands off the press. You can say whatever you want because you're journalists and you have a license to, to, to print or say whatever you want. And that's great from a freedom standpoint. From a fairness standpoint and objective, uh, trustworthy journalism standpoint, it's, it's, it's terrible. So when we read something, whether we agree with it or disagree with it, the likelihood that it's 100% true, um, is just a big fog. We, we just don't know what, what the truth is anymore.

[15:12] Speaker 2: I, I think one indication is that if, if, uh, Patel is actually going to file suit for defamation, which is, uh, almost impossible to win, particularly when you're, uh, a public figure, um, he has to realize that all the information that will come out of that, that truth is the ultimate defense to, um, a, a defamation, defamation suit. And so all, all the, uh, uh, all the, the journalists have to do is say, "Well, here's my proof. This is what I'm quoting here. This is a reliable source." And if it's, and if it's true, then it's not def- defamation. So to, to, to, to me that indicates that if you're gonna file s- a defamation suit, um, then you must have a really good belief that, that, uh, the information is wrong or putting in, uh, in the wrong light or blatantly false, um, and was designed to, to derail somebody. So, eh, w- we... I, I don't know how this is gonna, uh, how this is gonna play out. The other thing is, there's a lot of stuff that's considered classified.

[16:20] Speaker 2: You know, in the, um, uh, in, in Trump's case when there was a scandal about, uh, uh-

[16:26] Speaker 1: Well, I've got that coming up next, a classified story.

[16:29] Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, if, if you look through what was actually considered to be classified at Mar-a-Lago, there were only like a half a dozen publications that had, had a, a decent level of security. I mean, that the, the risk that was posed by these lower classifications. So what I guess what I'm saying is it wouldn't take much to trigger, uh, an investigation about the release of classified information because there's so much of it and so many people have access to it. Uh, I had a secret clearance just as a, as a military policeman, uh, y- years ago and I, I didn't find anything that I could sell to the Russians, but apparently I, I, you know, could have had access to it. So the freedom of the press thing, national security, um, truth, defamation of character, um, you know, um, revenge type, uh, prosecution, the, the specter of that, it's just, it's just a, it's just a mess. I, I don't know what to make of any of it, frankly.

[17:25] Speaker 1: Well, let's, let's hop onto this next one because we're still dealing with the FBI. Federal court blocks FBI from reviewing seized materials of a Washington Post reporter. So we were talking about The Atlantic, now we're hopping over to The Washington Post. A federal judge has dealt a significant blow to a government investigation, which kind of surprised me, and, and delete classified information. Now we're talking about classified information. It's a ruling the FBI cannot bypass judicial oversight to snoop through the devices of a Washington Post journalist, but they got ahold of the stuff, but here we go. Listen to this. In a decision filed on Monday, US District Judge Anthony Trenga, he affirmed a previous order and it requires an independent judicial review of material seized from the home of investigative reporter Hannah Nonensen. So they went and they got the stuff from the home.

[18:07] Speaker 1: The ruling prevents the government's own filter team from conducting the initial search of the elec- electronic life, citing that...... uh, concerns over First Amendment and the Privacy Protection Act. So, it's still, the devices are still gonna be searched, but they want an independent, you know, judicial person or, or arm doing that at the court. They don't want the FBI to be the ones to do it. I kinda get that, but, uh, but we're, we're not done yet. The legal firestorm started back on January the 14th of 2026. So this year, FBI agents raided Natteson, the reporter's residence. They walked away. They had two laptops, a phone, portable drive, recording device, even her exercise watch. The search was part of a criminal investigation into Aurelio Perez Legonas, a government contractor. This guy was suspected of leaking secret intelligence to Natteson, the reporter.

[18:52] Speaker 1: Prosecutors alleged that, that this bad guy used the encrypted app Signal to send classified data that later appeared in a Washington Post articles with messages set to auto-delete after 24 hours. So, that sounds like quite a bit more serious stuff. Your thoughts on this one, Chief?

[19:11] Speaker 2: Well, it does, but I think the, the suspect is the, you, you know, should be the source of the, uh, uh, uh, finding the information. I'm not saying journalists should have a pass, um, but, but you, you, you've been on the side of this, uh, Chip, uh, when all of a sudden your life is an open book, you know. I, I don't have anything that I'm ashamed of on my cellphone or on my internet, um, nor in my underwear drawer.

[19:36] Speaker 1: Ah.

[19:36] Speaker 2: But I don't want anybody rifling through any one of those things.

[19:39] Speaker 1: But what about in your underwear?

[19:41] Speaker 2: Uh, presently, everything's secure.

[19:45] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[19:46] Speaker 2: (laughs)

[19:46] Speaker 1: You know, I, uh, I'm, you know, they, they, you know, I, I get, I can kinda see it both ways because with what we do, we need the protection of the First Amendment, you know. We, we, we don't wanna be... We wanna be able to say what we wanna say, but I realize that there are some limitations to stuff, and you don't, you, and of course, I understand about defamation and character, uh, you know. But I, you know, this, the, the thought of journalists, you know, thinking that they have a, a, a, a pass because of who they are and what they're able to do, um, I kinda like the way the judge did this. The FBI, at least initially, not getting access to the device someone else's and they're investigating that. But they did raid the home and they grabbed the stuff, and, um, with all, everything that we've seen going on lately, I, uh, I don't really have much of a problem with it, to be honest with you. Here we go. We're going in. All right.

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[21:19] Speaker 1: So stay ahead of the game with Compliant Technologies and the revolutionary CD3 that hundreds of agencies have already gone to nationwide, and take it from me, this is one of the most common sense, hands-on solutions to ever come along. Complianttechnologies.com Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at leoroundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip The Block and I'm your host. We're joined by Dr. Joel Schultz, retired police chief, and, uh, and Chief, um, I've got two more main topics. I'm gonna try to rush through those, you know, kinda quick. I wanna talk about Pembroke Pines and some other stuff, um. But I know one of these articles coming up is about, uh, the effects of working like longer shifts for law enforcement, which I think is gonna be right up your alley. Um, this next one, Tampa Free Press at tampabee.com, FBI Director Kash Patel Reveals a Secret Evidence Room in, in a Record-Breaking Arrest Surge.

[22:03] Speaker 1: So, we're really gonna just really focus on the evidence room and a detailed sit-down on Fox News Media's Hangout with Sean Hannity podcast, and I gotta, I gotta admit, I really like the kinda, the, the layout of the room that Sean does the podcast in. FBI Director Kash Patel laid out a series of significant developments within the bureau ranging from a discovery of a hidden evidence, uh, room at headquarters and, and hidden evidence to a massive spike in violent crime arrests during 2025. So one of the most striking revelations involved the discovery of an undocumented room within the FBI's own headquarters. Um, it was not even on the official building blueprints, and it was inaccessible to current staff. So, I'm kinda wondering if they constructed it special. They found burn bags, large paper bags used for the destruction of classified materials that remained unburnt, uh, along with computer hard drives in the room.

[22:52] Speaker 1: Patel has said that these materials point towards, uh, what he termed a grand conspiracy to weaponize federal law enforcement against political rivals, and he said, quote, "We found that room that Dan Bongino talked about," and he said that, um, "it wasn't on our blueprint and nobody had access to it. I know that these people put things in places for us never to find." Chief, Chief Schultz, any surprises there?

[23:15] Speaker 2: Or did they put things in place hoping that somebody would find them? I mean, this, this, if you're gonna, if you're gonna dig into Deep State and conspiracy theories, again, truth is the victim in all of this, you know. May- maybe they were, maybe they planted stuff, somebody, whoever they is, (laughs) maybe some stuff was planted knowing that it would be found and then that would generate a big kerfuffle and then find out that it was, uh, a bunch of nothing. The, the, the position right now, uh, of, of the, of the director is that this was stuff that was genuinely hidden. It was secret stuff. Um, it was, uh, stuff that nobody wanted to come to light, not because national security was involved, because political intrigue was involved is the implication. Um, so it's, it's, it's very, it, it just, it's very mysterious. Um, you know, I, I read enough spy fiction not, not to be shocked at the idea that there's a secret subgroup of-... agency actors who do secret stuff in secret places.

[24:22] Speaker 2: Um, and it sounds like fiction, but it also sounds like it may be all too true, particularly with the accusations of some of the former FBI directors and their involvement in, uh, outright, uh, uh, falsification in campaigns, um, against political opponents. So it, it'll, it'll be very interesting. Um, I, I would also say as far as, uh, uh, Patel himself goes, I don't think that if half of these accusations about his, uh, playboy lifestyle w- were true that, that the president would keep him. I, I don't, I don't think Patel is valuable enough, um, to risk the, the president's reputation of, uh, of being in control and restoring the credibility of the, uh, the FBI.

[25:12] Speaker 2: So that's, um, you know, and, and Patel said, uh, "No, I'm, you know, I, I don't drink on duty or I'm never drunk on duty." And I, I think, you know, if you're the director of the FBI- FBI, I think you ought to be ast- abstinent probably for the rest of your life, um, rather (laughs) than take a risk of, of being under the influence or being accused of under the influence. But that's just my Puritan background-

[25:34] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[25:34] Speaker 2: ... I guess. So I, you know, to the question of what, you know, what's going on with the secret room and these secret documents, um, if it's truly secret stuff and deserved to be secret stuff, we'll never really know.

[25:46] Speaker 1: All right. All right. Well, thank you and good point. Makes sense. Um, on another note, we've got another story. I can't wait to cover these, uh, these next few. Um, so we've got Maryland PD weighs the impact of a 12-hour patrol shifts on officer wellness and staffing. Globalordinance.com, uh, is the site. So earlier this year, the An- and, and I may butcher the name, Anne Arendelle or Arendelle, the county police department, they, uh, they started a new p- patrol shift schedule. Uh, you know what, let me just drop all that 'cause I don't need to use them as an example. They started giving examples of, like, shifts and stuff. We've got Tyrone Powers, he's an adjunct instructor for the Department of Criminal Justice at, at, um, at, uh, Bowie State University, said that when agencies consider changing shift schedules, they often are balancing considerations about personnel shortages, what's most efficient for the department, and officer fatigue.

[26:35] Speaker 1: So let me just leave the article there and, and just go back from personal experience because I've thought about this as well. So when I first came on, we were working five-eight hour shifts, and I even had a, a flex shift to where, you know, I was working, uh, midnight, but the last day of the week that I came in, I got off at midnight. I'm getting off at, like, 6:30 in the morning, and then I would be off for the rest of that day. The next morning, I had to come in at 5:30 in the morning to work a day shift doing traffic control, which is really tough on the body. And then my agency went to, to, um, to, uh, four 10-hour days, and I gotta tell you, I, I love that. In fact, that's still my preferred shift. And then we went to basically around the 12-and-a-half-hour shifts to where you're working, you know, like, you know, six months out of the year, you know, you're working a- and you kind of rotate. So, um, I understand... Now, I've never worked a 12-and-a-half-hour shift.

[27:25] Speaker 1: I mean, shift work. Look, I've gone in to work and worked well over 12 and a half hours, um, and a lot of that time, when I was doing organized crime and stuff, I just volunteered a lot of that stuff because I just, I enjoyed what I did so much. But, um, but I, I know that there's fatigue and other things, and the article does talk about, you know, we sometimes are required to take someone's life, and it's one of the few prof- professions to where you're in that position to where you may have to make that call. You want officers to be on their A-game. You don't want them to be s- um, suffering from, um, um, sleep deprivation, things like that.

[28:00] Speaker 1: So, uh, not many people will understand this as well as you, Chief, and, and I, and I know you know better than I do, all the ramification from doing all these decisions and, I mean, and having, you know, the manpower and spreading them across the zone and, and, and making everything work, that's where the, there is an art to doing shifts and scheduling and coverage. Uh, your thoughts on this?

[28:24] Speaker 2: Yeah. It's, it's important for people to recognize that, um, it, i- there's 8,760 hours in a year that need to be covered. And if you need, um, you know, in, in my departments, uh, if you, y- you're trying to get two or three people on a shift, um, and include vacation days, days of training, uh, sick days, all those kinds of things, scheduling is a, is a nightmare for any administrator. And to avoid overtime, you know, you, you slip them over into that, uh, uh, FSLA, Fair Labor, FLSA, um, requirements for, for paying time and a half. Um, a- and so it's, it's complex. My favorite is, personally, is 4:10s, um, but the math doesn't work for that, right? 'Cause you've got four days and four days, but you're trying to schedule for seven days.

[29:16] Speaker 2: So some agencies will say, "Okay, uh, everybody works four and four, and the overlap day will be training for the shift." Uh-

[29:24] Speaker 1: Oh, I like that.

[29:24] Speaker 2: ...that's, that's not, not on the street.

[29:26] Speaker 1: All right.

[29:26] Speaker 2: So, so ideally, that's great, but then you gotta, you, you end up cranking out some, some half-baked training to, to fill in that time every Wednesday, right? Um, eh, but my, my experience... First of all, I, I don't know what kind of studies have been done, and I know it's been studied to death. I've been reading and, about, you know, shift, uh, permutations for, for, for decades. Um, but, yeah, do we have any statistical information that shootings are more frequent at the end of, uh, a 10-hour, 12-hour shift as com- as compared to an eight-hour? Um, uh, accidents, like, even backing up in the parking lot and bumper bumping bumpers, those accidents, uh, might be correlated to fatigue, and I'm not sure we have really good statistics on that. Um-Th- the- the other thing is, I think probably the more important question is the quality of sleep, um, fitness, wellness, nutrition, uh, physical resilience, uh, mental rest.

[30:29] Speaker 2: I think those things are as important as just being a- uh, awake and alert for 12 hours trying to do something. My last agency, um, I, I did 12s. We'd do three 12s and then, then, like, three or four days off, and then four 12s. That fourth 12 was really brutal, I'll have to admit, um, but if- if you ask me, rather than using up your vacation time, I could schedule you where you could have, uh, possibly th- th- uh, you could have four days off, take one day of vacation, and you- you'd have- you'd have a five-day break and only use one- one leave day.

[31:02] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[31:02] Speaker 2: Um, so, and I think time off is probably, uh, the- the premium thing that police officers look like. Now, when I was young, for the first probably five years of my career, I didn't want a day off. I didn't want to go on vacation. I didn't want to miss the shooting. I didn't want to miss the robbery. I would- I would sleep like a firefighter at the station if they would let me.

[31:24] Speaker 1: (laughs)

[31:25] Speaker 2: Um, but, you know, you- you get early or later on in your career and you're like, uh, "Okay, I love this work but I can't let it destroy my life." So I- I think- I think that-

[31:34] Speaker 1: Or you love- or you love your honey. You gotta keep the woman happy.

[31:38] Speaker 2: Uh, it's all a matter of training. Now who's gonna train who? That's up for debate.

[31:43] Speaker 1: Yeah. And, you know, that's another good point. You know, and people don't even think about you, like, court, like traffic court and stuff like this or- or criminal court, you know? It's- it's- this is- we're just talking about work, but there's other things. Yeah, yeah. Th-

[31:56] Speaker 2: And second, second jobs.

[31:58] Speaker 1: Right, right. So guys, we're coming up on our next commercial break. Um, man, we're having some really good, deep topics today. Thank you, Chief. We'll be right back. All right, guys. It's time to talk about GunLearn at GunLearn.com. And you know, they are the only company, GunLearn.com, that takes you from your present knowledge level to become a safe, accurate, and competent certified firearms specialist. Now, if you've got that Certified Firearms Specialist degree, there's some new stuff going on with it. So they've actually partnered with Smarter Degree and because of that and Smarter Degree's university partners, that Certified Firearms Specialist now it has got i- it's worth college credits through that program. And so that's huge, even if it's five years old. So again, Certified Firearms Specialist degree through GunLearn.com is now worth college credits. And you know, they've been doing this back since 1996.

[32:44] Speaker 1: They've been teaching everything that LEOs, that's law enforcement officers, need to know about firearms and ammunition to all facets of law enforcement. You can actually start today or you can sign up to attend a live seminar. And you can actually, if you've got your own agency, you can actually host a seminar for absolutely no cost if you're a chief or a sheriff. Go to GunLearn.com, get more information, hook up with the- the founder, Dan O'Kelly, GunLearn.com. Welcome back. Leo Roundtable at LeoRoundtable.com, the law enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock and I'm your host. We're joined by Dr. Joel Schultz, retired police chief, and, you know, all these things are kinda similar. Now we're jumping into an article from Local10.com. It's over in my neck of the woods at Pembroke Pines, so they're within the Tampa Bay area. A federal judge rules that Pembroke Pines' demand for officers' private texts was invalid under Florida law. Now we're talking about an IA investigation.

[33:35] Speaker 1: It's just amazing how far they went on this. So Pembroke Pines, you know I've, uh, I just relaunched the LeoAffairs.ch website where I've got cops with agencies talking about what's going on behind closed doors without the fear of repercussion, that kinda stuff. There was always issues at Pembroke Pines. There was always stuff going on and I've got them on the new LeoAffairs.ch, but a federal judge has ruled that an internal effort by the City of Pembroke Pines to obtain police officers' private text messages through public records request was invalid and unenforceable under Florida law. But let's find out the reason why. The decision stems from a lawsuit that was filed by the Fraternal Order of Police and two officers. So, uh, they're challenging what the city's trying to do. They challenge the Internal Affairs' demand for messages sent on personal cell phones.

[34:25] Speaker 1: So just for clarification so people know, you know, when we're at an agency and IA, Internal Affairs, is doing an investigation, that's normally an administrative, civil investigation. It has nothing to do with criminal. In fact, if an officer is being accused of anything criminal, they normally don't even do the IA thing. It's prohibited until after the criminal thing runs its course, e- even if he goes to jail or whatever. Then they do the IA thing so that nothing they uncover in IA can remotely influence the criminal side of it. There's laws that are supposed to prev- prevent that from happening and instead of letting them both go on at the same time and hoping that everything happens the way it's supposed to, they don't even do the IA until after the criminal. So that said, in a March 30th order, there's a US District Judge Ed Artau, that's A-R-T-A-U, he denied the officers' request, uh, for a temporary restraining order.

[35:15] Speaker 1: So that would've been from the officers and from the FOP, the- the Fraternal Order of Police. Uh, so he- he, uh, denied the request for a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction. In explaining the decision, he actually said he found that the public records request at the center of the case was actually legally invalid. So I hate the way they put legally invalid 'cause you've got a positive and negative. They should just say it's- it was, like, invalid. But he said it's legally invalid, so it's no good. According to the order, the IA investigator who issued the request was acting on behalf of the police department and acting on behalf of the city, the agency. Because of that, the judge said the request was made by a government agency, not a private person, which is what the problem was. Florida law allows persons to request public records, but it found that government agencies or employees acting on their behalf cannot do it. And here's a quote.

[36:03] Speaker 1: "As used in Florida law, the word 'person' refers to a common law person and not the government or its agents," according to the judge. So based on that interpretation, the court concluded that the request for the officers' text messages was invalid and unenforceable because it came from the agency and the IA employee working for the agency. The judge also found that because the request was invalid, the officers could not be lawfully... Could- they- they couldn't be...They could not face criminal charges for refusing to comply with their agency's demand to turn over the text messages. So the case involves text messages exchanged between two officers on their personal phones while off duty. So not department phones, personal phones. They're not on duty either, they're off duty. They were discussing workplace issue related to shift changes, which is what we just talked about, in a union contract. The department later sought those messages as part of an internal investigation.

[36:51] Speaker 1: The order also addressed constitutional claims and found that no violation of the Fourth Amendment. The judge wrote that the department never conducted, um, a forced search or seized the messages, and that early requests for the texts were voluntary. So, uh, it doesn't say they actually turned them over, but it said that early requests for the texts were voluntary. I suspect that some people turned them over voluntarily, maybe not knowing that they could resist it. Uh, despite siding with the officers on the validity of the records request, the judge denied the request for emergency relief. The court found the officers did not demonstrate irreparable harm, which is required for a temporary restraining order, so the lawsuit remains ongoing. Um, so Chief, are they gonna get some private citizen? Are they gonna figure out a way to get...

[37:36] Speaker 1: I don't know how they could get a private citizen to request that stuff and have it be justified because it would have to be someone acting on behalf of the department, but what are your, what are your... This is, this is how they roll in Pembroke Pines.

[37:45] Speaker 2: You, you'll have to unravel this for me, Chip. And this is what I was, uh, talking about whether we were gonna talk about this case or not, because you've got a union background and a Florida cop background, um-

[37:54] Speaker 1: Oh, so this is the case you were... Okay, I thought-

[37:56] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

[37:56] Speaker 1: ... you were talking about a different one. Okay, my, my apologies.

[37:58] Speaker 2: Well, you sit through a lot of information. Um, so, if I understand the genesis of this whole thing is supervisor tells subordinate, "Make a schedule change." Subordinate does that through an email and then talks to a colleague and said, "I'm not sure if this is allowed under our union agreement." And then-

[38:20] Speaker 1: That's right.

[38:21] Speaker 2: ... uh, retracts the email, countermanding what the supervisor had ordered them to do.

[38:27] Speaker 1: Wow, you did your research.

[38:27] Speaker 2: Now, how this ends up in federal court is, is, is scrambling my brain cells. I- if it's insubordination, that's one thing, and I've never worked in a union environment. So can you say, "Oh, the union would disagree with this, so I'm gonna disobey my, my supervisor"? I- is that, is that the way that works?

[38:46] Speaker 1: Well, I mean, uh, no. No, I mean, not, not legally. I mean, hey, you would still be, you would still be guilty of, um, of, of insubordination. So, you know, the chain of command, the union is not in it. Um, they may, they may represent you, but, uh, they may be p- (laughs) they may be providing you representation after you've lost your job and your paycheck too, though, you know? But, yeah.

[39:07] Speaker 2: So, w- w- would a, would a, an accusation of insubordination, uh, result in the agency looking for a court order to seize private communications and cell phones?

[39:20] Speaker 1: Well, our agency-

[39:21] Speaker 2: I, I just, I, I don't, I don't understand what the big deal is.

[39:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's u- i- i- it's, it's, I mean, the only thing is, is that let's just say that you're being insubordinate and in order to prove that, that you think that you would need to get ahold of private messages on a cell phone. You're not gonna be able to justify admini- Insubordination is not criminal, it's an administrative charge, let's just say. Uh, an adm- administrative slapping on the wrist. So, they can fire you for it, but they're never gonna be able to get ahold of your cell pho- your personal cell phone records, especially when they're off duty, when you're off duty when you did it, in order to substantiate the charge of insubordination. But apparently, Pembroke Pines didn't get the memo on that, or they got some bad legal counsel, you know, giving them the opinion on that.

[40:03] Speaker 2: And I, I think the civilians need to recognize that, um, there are limitations to police officers' freedoms. And they are mandated by policy, almost universally, to cooperate with internal affairs, uh, investigations, right? So, um, that's why I, I assume Garrity is still out there somewhere, which is-

[40:21] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

[40:21] Speaker 2: ... a kind of the Miranda warning for police officers. So you have to cooperate. Let's say you're accused of, of, of policy violation that's also a violation of the law, like, uh, altering documents or something like that. Um, and so the IA people say, "You've gotta cooperate with this organiz- uh, with this investigation and tell the truth, or we'll fire you." So then you get a, a s- written statement, which is a compelled confession-

[40:48] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

[40:49] Speaker 2: ... which is against the Fifth Amendment, which is what the Miranda, uh, advisements are, w- why they're given to, to civilians. So, it, it's, uh... This, this, this is one of these cases th- that's, that's en- en- ends up in federal court, and I think it could have been a memo.

[41:07] Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the, I think it's called the Weingart decision, which that whole thing about I'm ordering you to give a statement, uh, but it, but it, of course, it's only supposed to be administratively. They can't use that statement in criminal court against you. I think it's, I think it's called Weingart, if I'm not... Uh, I think that's the first time that it came up that protects you against that. But there are agencies that do it wrong. They, you're right, they do it wrong all the time, so. Um, but hey, it's j- this is one agency you would not want to work for, Pembroke Pines, I'm sorry.

[41:36] Speaker 1: But everything I've seen over the years-

[41:37] Speaker 2: I tell you, I, I, I never lurk- worked with a union, was never a member of the FOP, never had a lawyer on speed dial. Believe me, I would do all three of those things differently if I were on the road today.

[41:47] Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, okay. All right. Well, look, um, I, I think we got just enough time, and I, I know we're kind of going overtime on this one, but this last one, there is a video attached to it. I like to always cover a video story. Um, rumble.com, this is better. Oakland Police Trap Dozens of Motorcyclists During an Illegal Street Takeover. Let me just say that 80 dirt bikes, ATVs, they're going all over the place b- on Bay Bridge that connects San Francisco and Oakland. So, Oakland police get together, San Francisco police, they get a highway patrol, and these guys are cutting off traffic and blocking things. And so when they get on the bridge, they seize both sides. Beautiful video of it. Uh, these guys are trying to get away, they can't, they got nowhere to go. And they've got, I mean, there's like, uh, there's like beaucoup agency, you know, vehicles, SUVs, and they seize all these bikes, arrest these people that are jumping over the bridge trying to get away. It's a beautiful thing.

[42:34] Speaker 1: Um, about 30 seconds, what, what do you think about that one, Chief?

[42:38] Speaker 2: Well, y- you know, whether they're gonna make a dent in the problem by that continued effort or not, I don't know, but it certainly sends a signal to these knuckleheads that, uh, that's not gonna be tolerated. I think my favorite part of the video is watching the guy jump into the ocean to try (laughs) to avoid... (laughs) But, uh-

[42:54] Speaker 1: Well, that was... I think it was a chick. I think it was a girl at the, in the water that they were getting out. I think it ended... They blurred the face, but, uh, in the article, I read somewhere that it was supposed to have been a female that was in the water. I don't, I mean, you know, yeah.

[43:06] Speaker 2: Well, well, I, I've had people try to escape, but, uh, I never, uh, I never knew anybody to jump off a bridge to avoid a traffic ticket. So, that was fun.

[43:14] Speaker 1: Hey, they're losing all those assets. That's definitely gotta m- give them a pucker factor for next time they wanna do a street takeover. I absolutely love it. I know there's a lot of people like Casey Newcomb that are jumping up and down and screaming, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." So, uh, hey, Chief, thank you so much for being on the show. You absolutely killed it, Chief Joel Schultz. I also wanna, uh, shout out again to our sponsors. Please support them, guys. We've got golis.com, complitechnologies.com, gunlearn.com, medicare.live, safewayrecruiting, and twobells.com. We'll see you tomorrow, 12 noon Eastern.

[43:45] Speaker 1: (rock music plays)