Knives, Force Decisions, and Command Accountability in Modern Policing

Speaker Identification

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock: Identified from the opening and repeated show introductions in which the host names himself as Chip DeBlock and describes himself as host of LEO Round Table.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas: Identified from the host’s introduction and repeated references to him as Chief Ralph Ornelas, a former commander with the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department and later a police chief in California.

Speaker 3 – Prerecorded Sponsor Voice / Galls Commercial: Identified as a separate prerecorded promotional voice during the Galls advertisement because the tone and wording shift into a formal commercial script.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
Welcome to LEO Round Table at LEORoundTable.com. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I’m your host. We are a group of law-enforcement professionals who talk about today’s news and issues, but the twist is that we do it from a law-enforcement perspective.

Let me introduce Chief Ralph Ornelas. He is a former commander with the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, and he also transitioned and became a police chief in California as well. He has worn both hats, the sheriff’s office and the police department. You’ve got to love it. Thanks for being back on the show, Chief. I appreciate it.

A shout-out to our sponsors. Galls is our title sponsor at Galls.com, and they’ve also got that 15 percent discount code. They gave it to me, and now it’s yours. Just remember, it is Radio 15, and you can always get 15 percent off most purchases at Galls.com.

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Also, a shout-out to Brian Burns from the Tampa Free Press, FormerFedsGroup.com, and LawOfficer.com. Thanks to all those entities for helping make the show happen.

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Guys, let’s go to what is on the appetite menu and what we are going to be talking about today. We have some really good stories. The first ones are going to be stories with video components. We have body-cam video released in a fatal Tucson police shooting involving a man armed with a knife.

Then we have a machete wielder. This guy injures a K-9 and is then shot by Oxnard police inside a restaurant. There are questions about how that went down. The Chief and I were just talking about it. We are animal lovers.

Then we have an ex-Sunrise police sergeant. This is what is going to get most of the day. This ex-Sunrise police sergeant is seen grabbing an officer’s neck, and he is avoiding criminal trial. We covered this when it happened, about four years ago, and it is worthy of a discussion.

We also have a robbery suspect killed by an Albuquerque police officer when he raises a gun in the attempted carjacking vehicle.

Lastly, if we have time, we have Davenport police dash cam showing two squad cars colliding. It is a training moment. It is nothing to spend a lot of time on, but if these guys had been seriously injured, it probably would not have happened in there. They were not, so we will cover that if we have time.

If you are ready, Chief, let’s start off with the first one. It is a video component from Rumble.com, our favorite law-enforcement video channel called This Is Butter. Body-cam video was released in a fatal Tucson police shooting involving a guy armed with a knife.

In the video, officers warn the man, “Let it go. You will be tased,” and continue giving commands.

This happened in Tucson, Arizona. This newly released body-cam video shows the moments that led up to a fatal officer-involved shooting in Tucson earlier this year. The Pima Regional Critical Incident Team released the footage on Friday. It is from an April 10 incident in which Tucson police officers responded to reports of a guy armed with a knife.

According to investigators, when officers got there, they encountered a 65-year-old named Louis Torres, and he had a large knife in his hands when they arrived.

Body-cam footage shows officers repeatedly ordering this guy to drop the weapon, including commands given in Spanish, which I am sure Chief Ralph would appreciate. Officers can be heard saying, “Drop the knife. Drop the knife.”

Authorities said the officers attempted less-lethal measures before they resorted to deadly force. The video shows officers deploying a pepper-ball launcher and a Taser in an attempt to get this guy to simply be compliant. They said that the bad guy eventually picked the knife back up. This is after he lays it down, and they are kind of moving in to go hands-on with the guy. He goes for the knife, and that is his mistake. Someone could have gotten hurt at that point.

An officer fires their weapon and strikes Torres. He is transported to the hospital, where he later died from his injuries.

Looking at my show notes, the layout is that they respond to the knife call. They deploy the Taser, and it is a successful Taser deployment one, two, three, four times, from what I counted. Then we have pepper-ball deployments starting at one minute and 56 seconds. There are at least two. The suspect then drops the knife.

Now we have him at the tail end, and we have air service overhead. You could not really tell, but I know how loud helicopters are. Chief Ralph and I have never talked about this, but I guarantee he knows like I know. We love air service, but when you are on the ground trying to give commands to a bad guy, that does not work in your favor. If it is air service, those things are loud, and it really can interfere.

Even though you could not really tell, I know from experience that when you are trying to give commands to a bad guy, you need one officer to have a strong voice to make sure the bad guy can hear. In both languages, that means you may have to have two guys do it.

The officers move in to arrest the guy. Remember, he dropped the knife. His hands are on his head, and when they move in and get close enough, he goes for the knife.

I’ll let the Chief take over here.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
First of all, you make a great comment that I did not write in my notes about the helicopter. To the officers watching this, I’ve been there, where I told the helicopter, “Get higher up. Get away.” It does not have to work the dialogue and the conversation sometimes. It exacerbates it, not in a positive sense, but in a negative sense.

We are probably going to have a really good discussion about this because there are some things I believe, knowing you now for a while, that you may not like what I am going to say.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
That is good.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
Number one, it is a justified shooting. But I will tell you this. Let’s go back to the call for service. I believe the RTO did a great job getting information out. Some of the information the informant was saying was that there may be something going on with this older man. Maybe confusion. I think the informant who called up even mentioned Alzheimer’s and stuff.

They get there, and they get some cooperation, not much. I always say this: we have had a lot of knife shootings, and I always have to put this out. Reverence for life is so important.

The thing about it is that I do not believe they established a good enough dialogue with this suspect to really obtain what is going on with this man at all. Right away, they are getting into it. They ask some questions. I think the female officer asks him things in Spanish to try to get into it, but it did not go any deeper. What is the problem? What is going on? Can you tell us what is happening, Mr. Torres?

It depends on the way it is done, and that is where it comes into play with what you said, Chip. The helicopter interferes with that.

Anyway, Taser, Taser, Taser. Here we go again. We talked about this last week. Why do we always have to give an alert that we are going to tase someone? Just use the Taser.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
Policy. They will get written up if they do not.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
You may save a person’s life by shocking, because their body hears it. The suspect prepares for this.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
I know, but you cannot tell cops to go against policy. They are going to get written up. It is one of those things where it is in every SOP manual I have ever read with a Taser. You have got to warn them first before you deploy. Same with BolaWraps and everything. I understand that.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
Sometimes you can say, “Do it,” and beg for forgiveness later on, especially if things end up in a manner we would like to see. But the thing about it, Chip, is this. They get the guy. They tase him three or four times. They pepper-spray him. Now the knife is on his lap, right?

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
Right.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
He is on his back, against boxes or against a fence, whatever it is right there, and his feet are off the ground. Where are impact weapons on this? Does anybody have an expandable baton?

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
But he was not resisting or anything at that point.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
What I am saying is, as they closed the distance, they were pretty close to him. Chip, if you look at the video near the end before they—

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
First of all, Ralph, I might not have gotten that close until I really established some dialogue and some more cooperation.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
Or maybe even another dose of pepper-ball gun. But if I am going to get that close, I would have definitely had myself and my partner with an impact weapon. When he did reach for that thing with his right hand, I would have come in.

I know this, and this is a great part about being with you, a great part about being with Chip DeBlock. I have got to tell you, I have been in those positions, and I did not shoot somebody. I could give you examples.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
My response would be that you are lucky you were not stabbed or killed. But we are in this. My thing is that we are not all created equally. Some cops have better judgment than others, and some have better physical skills than others. That is why you have SOPs, manuals, regulations, and protocols for how we respond.

There was one time where I had a female, and she had two knives. I was young. I was a rookie. I thought, “Man, I can grab her wrist before she can stab me.” I did it, and I was successful. My partner about killed me for doing that, but I did it. I did not want to have to shoot her.

It was not a smart move, and I was very lucky. If I had gotten cut, it would have been one of those things where I deserved it because of it.

But if someone is going for a weapon, I would never want to respond with an impact weapon. That is a lethal situation. An impact weapon is something for someone actively resisting, even if they do not have a weapon. You guys on the West Coast do things so much differently than the rest of law enforcement does across the country, especially on the East Coast.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
In the 1980s, Chip, we did not have all the regulations we have now. It is just the training we had at that time with impact weapons. Even when I went back to the academy as a sergeant, there are situations when you get that close to a suspect where sometimes an impact weapon is useful and productive.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
We have got 10 seconds, so let’s hold this. We will jump right back into it after the commercial break. Here we go.

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Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
Welcome back to LEO Round Table at LEORoundTable.com, the law-enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I’m your host. We are joined by Chief Ralph Ornelas from California, who also formerly worked with the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department as a commander over there. Thanks for being on the show, Chief.

We have been talking about a use of force. There was a video involving a bad guy. It was a man-with-a-knife call. When the cops get there, there is a lot of talking and a lot of less-lethal. There are at least four Taser deployments. I have to admit, I was kind of impressed with the performance of the Taser because it worked. Then they had a couple of pepper-ball deployments.

Ultimately, the bad guy was a bad guy. When the cops moved in, he was, let’s say, briefly compliant. He was on the ground. I think his back was up to a fence, legs elevated, hands on his head. He had dropped the knife in his lap area. It was close enough to where he could easily reach it.

When the cavalry moves in to go hands-on, he goes for it and gets neutralized. Chief Ralph and I have been discussing East Coast versus West Coast tactics. I am in Tampa, Florida, and he is over in California. Chief, the floor is yours.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
I love the discussion. I love the disagreement because it is good for the people who watch this because they get different perspectives.

I will tell you, Chip, I have been with you on this show for a while, and we have covered a lot of knife incidents. They always end with the result, most of the time, that there is a shooting. I really believe that sometimes young officers have to understand that he who hesitates loses. If moving in closer and using an impact weapon, either after the Taser or whatever you want to use, a pepper-ball or a .40 caliber, sometimes you have to.

You can shake your head all you want, and I love it, but why does it always end up this way? We have an obligation by law for reverence for life, for people, for our lives, for our partners’ lives, and for citizens’ lives. But there is a point in time, even in this shooting, where they could have done something right before he went back to that weapon. They could have used an impact weapon to strike and get control of the person.

I bring this up, Chip, because of the numerous shootings. I will give you an example. In 1977, there was a shooting in the Los Angeles area. It was a huge shooting that was all over the press and all over the country.

This lady was involved in a disturbance call, and two LAPD officers got there. She had a knife in her hand. She was distraught, and they were there to mitigate a problem with California Edison. She has the knife in her hand. She throws the knife. Remember, we had no body-worn camera. We had just witnesses and statements from the officers.

She throws the knife. The knife is in the air, and they put 16 rounds in her. That shooting was very difficult. My uncle was working at the time. I think he was in the last part of being in internal affairs. Why was it difficult? Because the knife was already out of her hand. The officers moved away. The knife did not even reach them. It was a kitchen knife, and they let 16 rounds go into her.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
Ralph, you have to understand, with all the advancements we have in technology now, we have Jamie Borden on the show from Critical Incident Review. We have Von Kliem with Force Science. They have proven without a doubt that what you are saying sounds like something until I give you the stats.

When I realize that there is a threat, let’s say I see a woman with a knife and she is going back to throw it at me, and I decide, “Hey, I’m going to shoot. I’m going to try to neutralize the threat,” there is no way that I am going to be able to get my gun on target and fire before she throws that knife at me. I am going to try.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
In that situation, the guns were already pointed at her, Chip.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
It matters, but you are not going to be able to beat her. By the time they fire their guns, that knife is going to be airborne. It is going to happen almost every time, whether the guns are holstered or whether they are pointed at her.

The guy with the knife on the ground that you say we should use an impact weapon for: if that had been me, and you and I are about the same age, I could grab the knife and throw it or stab somebody before they are going to get a shot off at me. That is a fact.

It is going to take about three-quarters of a second to a second just for me to be able to process what my eyes are seeing. Then my brain has to tell my trigger finger to pull the trigger. All of this is processing and assessing, and it takes about a second and a half. There is a lot that can happen in a second and a half.

I do not want to get cops killed. This is healthy, because I know life is valuable, but my life is valuable too. I am going to neutralize. Back in the old days, they said, “Shoot to kill.” Now it is, “Shoot to stop the threat.” It does not matter; it is just a play on words. The bullet still goes into the bad guy.

If I am getting close enough to a guy and he is going for the knife, there is no way I am going to use an impact weapon. Number one, you do not know if it is going to work. The guy has been tased four times and pepper-balled a couple of times, and guess what? He is still the bad guy going for the weapon.

I am not going to be that close and try to use an impact weapon. More than likely, I am not going to be able to hit him with an impact weapon or less-lethal before he is able to stab me if he really wants to, unless he goes really slow or misses the knife on his first grab or something. It is not worth the risk.

It is a lethal situation that deserves a lethal response. The only way you deviate from that is if you have some dude with less-lethal and a lethal cover officer. The lethal guy makes his decisions based on what he is seeing. It does not matter what the less-lethal guy is doing. If the less-lethal guy has a chance to use less-lethal before you go lethal, fine. But we are not relying on him. We are going lethal.

I do not have to be worried about death. I only have to be worried about great bodily injury. The protocols I am pushing and offering up are a little bit different. The other stuff is just too much risk. You run the risk of getting injured or hurt, and then you do not do anybody any good. You cannot do the public any good because now you are either dead or injured.

I understand what you say, but—

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
Please do not tell me I do not understand, because I have been there.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
No.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
The thing about it is this: I try to give a different perspective because I have done it. I have had deputies do it. I know we do not want cops killed.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
No, do not misinterpret. I do not want cops killed. I handled deputies being murdered.

We have 10 seconds. Do not impose that.

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Welcome back to LEO Round Table at LEORoundTable.com, the law-enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I’m your host. We are joined by Chief Ralph Ornelas from California.

We have been going back and forth. I do not want to say it was heated, but it was controversial enough that we had a four-minute break, and we said, “Let’s hash this out here.” I do want to bring the radio people up to speed on where we are, taking nothing from Ralph and his point, because I want him to say something. I will let him get the last word in.

There is a difference in tactics. I kind of see it as an East Coast-West Coast thing. A lot of the guys I have worked with on the West Coast use a little bit different tactics. In my opinion, they push a lot more of what we would call the necessary standard versus the reasonable standard, or maybe a lot more less-lethal, although we all use less-lethal.

The main debate is whether, in a situation with a guy with an edged weapon, knife, or something like that, it is a lethal situation where lethal force is your only option, or whether you want to, like Chief Ralph is talking about, maybe use an impact weapon or other less-lethal options. That is where we are differing. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Chief Ralph?

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
I agree. We agree to disagree on just a tactical approach. But the bottom line, as I stated, was that it was a justified shooting. Sometimes I want to present some other options, and that is part of the great part of your show. We can articulate that.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
I know you love your cops. I do not doubt that for a minute. We have both got 30 years of law enforcement. I started in 1983. You started maybe a year or two before me, and maybe you have a few more years in law enforcement. We were trained and brought up differently. Not a different era, the same era, but under different umbrellas, basically.

If I had grown up in the Los Angeles area, I probably would have a completely different mindset on how to do police work too. We will let the people listening to the show decide for themselves where they are going to fall on this thing.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
I respect you immensely and your viewpoints when you state them. Sometimes it is just life experience and things that we did in that moment in time in our careers. There are examples in our brains that provide a different alternative. That is all.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
Personally, I think that if you have a bad guy with a .22, it is a small-caliber gun, you could probably survive one or two shots, so you should wait until maybe the third or fourth shot before you return fire with something bigger, like a 9 mm.

I am joking with you.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
I know you are being facetious.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
Now someone is going to take a clip of that, play me saying it, and I am going to get screwed.

We are about halfway through, and I am thinking that we need to jump to the story you wanted to talk about, the sergeant.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
Let’s do it.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
All right. I am going to skip over video number two, and we are going to jump straight into the Miami area with Sunrise Police Department.

NBCMiami.com: “Ex-Sunrise Police Sergeant Seen Grabbing Officer’s Neck Avoids Criminal Trial.” Guys, we covered this about four years ago. Yes, it is back in the news, and it is surprising to me. Wait until you hear this.

The video made national headlines and ignited conversations about use of force and de-escalation in policing, kind of like what Chief Ralph and I have been discussing just now. It showed then-Sunrise Police Department Sergeant Christopher Pullease, who is no longer a sergeant there or even working there, briefly grabbing a fellow officer, a female, by the neck when she intervened during a heated arrest.

Sergeant Pullease was later arrested and charged with felony battery and evidence tampering. I had forgotten that. I thought the battery was from the evidence tampering, but the felony battery was from that brief grab. I do not see it, but the evidence tampering I do.

Nearly four years after his arrest, NBC 6 Investigates learned that the former sergeant is avoiding criminal trial. Instead, his case was transferred from regular criminal court to Broward Veterans Court. It is a diversion program for certain military people who qualify for it.

A prosecutor told the judge that the alleged victim, the female police officer who still works there, did not oppose the move, and the move was requested by the sergeant’s attorney.

The incident happened back on November 19, 2021. Think about that. We are in 2026, so that is about five and a half years ago.

As police body cameras were rolling, the video shows officers having trouble taking a battery suspect into custody. The sergeant arrives on the scene while officers are putting him in the back of the patrol car. The sergeant rolls up with pepper spray in his hand. He exchanges words with the already handcuffed bad guy in the back seat.

The suspect says, “You’re going to mace me? Mace me.” The sergeant looks at him, using expletives, and says, “Hey, you want to play expletive games? You ever get disrespectful with my expletive officers, I will remove your expletive soul from your expletive body.”

Chief Ralph is making me laugh. He is smiling.

At that moment, a young female officer with less than three years on grabs the sergeant by the waistband. He is a 21-year veteran. She starts pulling him out of the back seat because he is all over this guy. She is pulling him away. The sergeant turns around, and he briefly grabs her by the neck. He has kind of lost it a little bit, and he says to her, “Don’t ever expletive touch me again.” He uses the word expletive a lot.

The junior officer says, “Sir,” and he says, “Get the expletive off me.” She says, “Sir.”

The police chief at the time praised the junior female officer, saying that her actions demonstrated good leadership during a tense situation. I suspect, and I will let Chief Ralph say, that she has some stones.

Right after the altercation, the sergeant can be heard telling the officers at the scene, “Everybody turn your expletive cameras off.” I can only imagine what was said and done after that.

Eight months after the incident, the sergeant ends up getting arrested. In July of 2022, the Broward State Attorney’s Office announced that he was being charged with felony battery on his fellow officer and evidence tampering. I have to assume that was a felony as well. In court filings, prosecutors wrote that the sergeant fully reset and wiped his cell phone the day he was told he was under criminal investigation. That is a no-no. That is destruction of evidence. I can tell you that here in Florida, that is a third-degree felony.

Sergeant Pullease was set to go to trial in late June, nearly four years after the arrest. But NBC 6 Investigates learned that there will be no trial because the 51-year-old’s case was transferred out of regular criminal court and into a diversion program for certain military members.

The Veterans Court requires that the person have military service related to a condition. They give quotes about what it is, which makes the Chief and me wonder what he has. Issues like mental illness, traumatic brain injury, or substance abuse are among some of the things that would qualify for this.

On June 1, Sergeant Pullease’s attorney, whose name is Michael Dutko, filed a motion requesting that the case be transferred, saying his client meets the criteria for the treatment program. He said his client is a veteran, was honorably discharged, and is currently receiving some services from the VA. That is part of the whole process.

When asked about the body-camera video, attorney Dutko told NBC 6 that the video does not tell the whole story. The defense attorney also said the junior officer’s intervention was not appropriate. Ouch. If this case had gone to trial, he said it would have taken a while to explain the entire episode involving his client’s arrest.

Finally, Sergeant Pullease’s criminal charges would be dismissed if he successfully completes Veterans Court, which could take about 18 months, according to the Broward State Attorney’s Office. Sergeant Pullease retired from the Sunrise Police Department in 2022. The female officer is still on the force, and they say she went along with this treatment program, this diversion program with the VA. She is okay with that.

We have two minutes, and we can go after the break if we need to. Chief Ralph?

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
First of all, it is very interesting that his name is Pullease, and here we are, police officers on this show.

I have got to say, we smile and grin a little bit, but it is a very sad situation because here is a sergeant who may have had a great career and may have been a great veteran. For his actions, what he did not only to the female officer, but what he did to his other officers as a supervisor by putting them in that position and exposing them to that horrible behavior, is serious.

When you sent me this, I reviewed it this morning and sent it to my friend who is an assistant sheriff. I said, “This is a great video and case to use at sergeant supervisory school.” Once again, I always look at things that try to elevate our people’s thinking. How do we allow ourselves to get into that world?

He lost his emotions. He lost his control. He was not calm. He was not disciplined about what was going on. You can see the body-worn camera video, Chip, that you sent. You can see his body language. Even when he was driving, his forearms are big with tension. He gets out, and he has that pepper spray.

I responded as a sergeant. I was eight and a half years as a sergeant. If I saw my officers and deputies doing the proper thing, I would just leave them alone and let them conclude the incident as long as everybody was okay. For him to dive into that back seat with the expletives and the canister of pepper spray, there was no reason for him to be in that.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
We have a commercial break coming up, so we are coming right back to this. Stick with us. We will be right back.

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Welcome back to LEO Round Table at LEORoundTable.com, the law-enforcement talk show. My name is Chip DeBlock, and I’m your host. We are joined by Chief Ralph Ornelas. He used to be a sergeant at one point, but he was a commander with the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, and then he left and became a chief in California. Welcome to the show, Chief Ornelas.

We have been talking about an interesting story we covered once before. It is from the Sunrise Police Department. We have a sergeant who grabbed a female police officer by the neck, even though it was brief, after she pulled him out of the back seat of a car when he was maybe going to do something even worse and more stupid to the bad guy who was handcuffed in the back of the car. Then he destroyed some potential evidence.

I think it is fairly safe to say that it looks like he was charged with two felonies, but now he is avoiding criminal court by going into a Veterans Court program. There are some people writing articles about that and having an issue with it. Chief Ralph, the floor is yours.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
Chip, you spoke about his conduct at the beginning, and I get it. Let’s go to the police officer, the female police officer, and what she did.

She showed a great amount of courage, commitment, and honor at that time. It is not easy, what she did, to pull the sergeant back by the Sam Browne, the gun belt. Imagine the feeling he must have had when somebody pulled him away when he was already enraged and red-hot inside that back seat with a suspect.

She did it in front of three other officers. For him to turn around and grab her by the throat, and then you could hear her voice, she was still composed. The intestinal fortitude of this young lady was just amazing.

I have to go back to the chief of police. After he saw it, to his credit, that had to be difficult for the chief of police to immediately relieve him of duty and open up a criminal investigation, plus obviously an internal affairs investigation.

For this sergeant now, and here it goes again, audience, when you do not control your emotions and your lack of discipline, here he is wiping his phone. Then he is ordering his platoon, his five officers in his platoon, and we have a duty not to do dirty work, ordering them not to talk about it. Here goes another violation by a supervisor officer going against the chief of police about his orders, which probably those officers were already advised by the lieutenant and chief not to talk about this incident. Here he is putting this text message out.

This sergeant obviously lost his cool, Chip, and in the matter of him doing his job.

Once again, we laugh, and it is sad. It is really sad that he did this. I was in a situation in the early 1980s, not as a supervisor, but with two deputies. We were in pursuit of a robbery suspect, and it turned into a foot pursuit. They got him in a shed. I grabbed both of them by the back of their Sam Browne and pulled them away.

Why? At the command post was the commander, the captain of the station, and the captain. Did I get heat from it? Absolutely. But my heart was with my two partners, each of whom I had worked a radio car with at one time. I cared about them. I knew what was going to take place later if they would have put the boot to the suspect, and I would not have been able to justify it.

This female officer, it saddens me. It also saddens me to think, who knows what pressure was put on her?

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
Right. That is why she agreed with the arrangement to go to Veterans Court, which I do not blame her for. Look at what she faced after that happened. I guarantee she walked into the room, and you had a split. A small amount of people would side with her. Other guys would want nothing to do with her after that happened.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
Do not think that the chief of police did not think about that. That is why the district attorneys and everybody agreed to that. Why put this young officer and other officer witnesses on the stand to testify against this sergeant? There is no doubt in my mind, and I am sure you will agree with me, that the agency got ahead of her before this article came out and said, “You will not talk or give a comment, period.”

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
They got out to her. I agree 100 percent. But guess what? You do not think she already thought that in her mind? She does not want to. She has a good thing going where she is at. She is still there. She wants this thing to just go away so she can do her job.

She will probably be a great officer. She is probably already a great officer, but I suspect she is someone who could really grow in that agency and do very well.

I think it would be really cool if she got a tattoo of a handprint on her neck. Could you imagine if it was even temporary? How cool would that be? That is what she is going to be known for.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
I just looked over my notes again. When he had a hand around her throat, she still called him “sir.”

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
Yeah.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
She still called him “sir.”

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
It was bad. The optics were just so bad.

I am not trying to take up for the sergeant, but I am trying to bring the human component into this. With police work, right or wrong, there is a human component. Just like everything we do, we bring a gun component to it because we have a gun on us. Every bad guy we deal with, there is a gun there.

There is a human component. We are not perfect. I am not saying that Chief Ralph and I would have ever been in that situation or reacted that way. I do not know. We all have different triggers and thresholds. But this sergeant, in my opinion, lost it. He should not have allowed himself to get into that place.

She was trying to save him and prevent him from doing something very stupid, like macing the guy or punching the guy handcuffed behind his back. I do not know. I think he had lost it to the point where, if his reaction was grabbing her by the throat when she just pretty gently pulled him out of the car, she probably saved him from something worse.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
That is why, when I started, I said it was a very sad situation. It is a sad situation. I would like to know what the background is with this sergeant and what other telltale signs there were. Maybe the lieutenants saw something. I do not know.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
I bet his guys loved him. I bet he was a good sergeant. There may have been some signs, but I bet he was a cop’s cop. The other male cops looked up to him and stuff. He was definitely a type A. It is too bad that he had to leave on this note.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
I agree. It was very astute of his attorney to go to Veterans Court, because I have to admit, it got protracted out. I do not know, 18 months? I pray to God for him that he is okay, because I do not ever want to see a veteran who fought for our country suffer. I look at the tattoos on him and stuff. God forbid, who knows what he went up against and what sparked it.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
That is a good point. There could be some legitimacy to that. There is some benefit to the agency not dragging all this through the mud. You notice they never put the female officer’s name in that article. They are trying to protect her as well. I have respect for the way they are trying to do all this.

If she and the agency have no problem with him going, look, the military thing is not something they can just say, “Hey, we are going to divert you.” That has to be approved. There is a process. It has been four years. You have to have faith in the system, and I do still have faith in the system.

Let’s face it. He has already been punished. He has lost his job, and he will probably never be a cop in the state of Florida again. They likely even yanked his certification, but he is old. He is too old anyhow.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
Exactly. I hope he gets the help he needs.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
I agree.

We have talked about two topics, but it was great. Hopefully, a lot of people can appreciate that. Good cops hate bad cops, and we can hold people accountable when the time comes.

Chief Ralph, thank you so much for being on the show.

I do want to mention Lieutenant Randy Sutton’s 501(c)(3). It is helping cops out of a world of hurt who are suffering from things like PTSD and other issues.

Chief Ralph, while we are still in radio, take about 30 seconds and talk about what you are doing with fentanyl and how people can get a hold of you.

Speaker 2 – Guest, Chief Ralph Ornelas:
You can get a hold of me on LinkedIn. I am still out there. Right now, it is summer break, but I am still doing presentations to parents, seniors, and students on the danger of fentanyl. Let’s face it: we have lost so many young people between ages 10 and 45. Please educate our youth.

Ralph Ornelas, O-R-N-E-L-A-S, on LinkedIn.

Speaker 1 – Host, Chip DeBlock:
Check him out, guys. He travels all over California, and I am sure if you are willing to foot the bill, he will go anywhere you want him to go to talk about it because he is very passionate about fentanyl.

So, Galls.com, ComplyTechnologies.com, and GunLearn.com. Do not forget, the discount code for Galls is Radio 15 to get 15 percent off. We will see you guys back here tomorrow at 12 noon Eastern.