Creating Healthy Homes: Nicole Bijlsma on EMFs, Mold, Chemicals and Building Biology for Better Health

**Speaker Identification**  
Speaker 1 – Host: Helen Taylor (host of Inspired Radio introducing the show and conducting the interview).  
Speaker 2 – Guest: Nicole Bijlsma (building biologist and environmental health expert sharing expertise on healthy homes).

Welcome everyone. Welcome to Inspired Radio. I am Helen Taylor and I am here with you every Wednesday at 10 a.m. Melbourne Australia time and Tuesday at 7 p.m. Central Time for Canada and the US for conversations and stories to inspire you. This is the BBS Radio TV platform and we are going live to 200 plus outlets worldwide.  

Before I get started, I would like to firstly say to our sponsors, every one of you that sponsors the show, thank you, thank you, thank you. Inspired Radio is all about change and getting uncomfortable and shaking up the status quo that we have got out there. We are breaking free from limiting systems and limiting lives and embracing our infinite potential. My guests are here to tell their story because storytelling is creating a new world.  

So let me introduce today’s guest, Nicole Bijlsma. She is in building biology. She is a leading voice in environmental health and the Healthy Homes movement in Australia. A former naturopath and acupuncturist, Nicole brings over three decades of clinical, research and teaching experience to her pioneering work in building biology, exploring how our homes impact our health, anything from mold to allergens to electromagnetic fields and toxic exposures. She is the best-selling author of Healthy Home, Healthy Family, founder of the Australian College of Environmental Studies and a sought-after expert whose work bridges the gap between environmental science and everyday well-being. Today we will be diving into what makes the home truly healthy and what we can do to create safe living spaces for ourselves.  

Wow, Nicole, welcome.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Very nice to be here and be interviewed by you again.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Right. Well, you know, firstly, let me say you have reinvented yourself a few times there, right? What has been driving you?  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** That is a great question. You know, it started in year 10. I remember looking through the career guide at high school and going, there is not much here that I can relate to that I want to be. And then I came across naturopath and I went, that is what I want to be. I want to be like a doctor but not prescribe pharmaceuticals. I want to figure out what is causing cancer, which was a big goal, pretty naive because a few of my parents’ friends had been diagnosed and passed away with cancer at the time that I was 16. And I thought, it always felt within my core, there is always a reason why people get sick. So I wanted to explore that and I started to look at Bernard Jensen’s work. He was a famous naturopath in the US who did a lot of colonic irrigation and gut work, which of course we now realise is, you know, especially the gut microbiome is key to health. And yeah, I was just obsessed about it. I was obsessed with the C word, the cancer word.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** And a little bit ahead of the curve too by the sounds of it, right? You were sort of seeing, you know, that there was something ahead for you, some sort of solutions for people and asking all the right questions.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** It was. And when I started naturopathy straight out of school, there were two 18 year olds, me and one other girl, and the rest were in their 30s to 60s. It was a class of 17 and two of us who were 18 doing the course. But it just felt to me, there is always a reason why people get sick. And that is really motivated me throughout my life, both in my own health journey and in my patients.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Yes, yes, we need to be passionate about something, do not we? Because it just pulls us into the future. Okay, so I mean, gosh, where do we start love? Where do we start? You know, I mean, I have been looking at your website and to everyone listening, we are going to be putting those details with the show notes. Because I love how you have got your 10 tips for people. I know that on your website, you have got people can just link, click on a few things and there is descriptions as insight for everybody. But, you know, where do we start? Like, let us start with 5G because I know that 6G is coming up right along behind it. Let us talk about 5G. What is it to you?  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Well, man-made electromagnetic fields are very different to the terrestrial radiation we have evolved on. So regardless of what generation of electromagnetic field it is, I think it is really important to look at what do we evolve on? What is the baseline? What is the natural radiation that we have evolved on that is essential for biological life and life in general? And that is the sun’s energy and of course the Earth’s magnetic field, the Schumann resonance that exists in the atmosphere at any given time because of the lightning strikes happening throughout the planet. So understanding that we have evolved, that we are electrical beings. We are not chemical factories like the pharmaceutical industry want us to believe. We are electrical beings. The spark is happening early in utero and there is electric voltage across all the cell membranes. So once you understand what we have evolved on and what it takes to have life, not just water, not just bacteria but electricity, then you understand what the baseline is for health. When you start masking and adding, you know, huge orders of magnitude of man-made electromagnetic fields that are very different to the terrestrial radiation we have evolved on. So we have, you know, radio frequencies in particular that impact the cell membrane and cause an influx in calcium ions into the cell that results in oxidative stress etc. So we know what is happening at a cellular level and this indirectly can cause non-ionizing DNA strand breaks, etc. and increased risk for cancers. Not in the same way as ionizing radiation but in a different way leading to the same outcome.  

So the problem with man-made electromagnetic fields is they are modulated, they are carrying information on a wave. You do not find that in nature. They are alternating current, they are not direct current going in one direction. So this modulation and this high variability is something our cells were not designed to deal with. And what the Russian research has shown is that it has long latency periods. So, you know, a lot of brain tumors, we are looking at 15 to 25 years latency period like asbestos before adverse health effects show. But at a cellular level it is showing very, very early on before it ends up in this chronic disease manifestation. It makes it very difficult to be able to trace back and go, that is the cause because there is a long latency period. This is the problem with the medical model at the moment. It is focused so much on diagnostic boxes which are not helping most people in chronic illness. But acute diseases, brilliant. Let us not forget it. Medicine is incredible in acute diseases. But for chronic disease management, it is really failing miserably. And the reason is because they are teaching people on diagnostic boxes, not what is happening at a cellular level. We start to see a very particular pathway that is followed from homeostasis where the cell is adapting to environmental onslaught, etc. But gets back to a state of balance when that is overwhelmed because there is too much stress, too much environmental triggers, poor diet, all these other things, genetics, nutrition, etc. coming on board. You have this eventual degradation into chronic illness. And the chronic illness pathway is very different to just giving someone a diagnostic box. You really need to understand what are all the triggers that are causing this low-grade inflammation that is ultimately leading to most of us living longer but being sicker.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** My gosh, everybody, can you hear? I have just pushed a button of passion. Like this woman, it just comes out. You love this stuff. And I love listening to the passion that you have for it. But what I am hearing is, like for the layman people out there, chronic is long-term. That is long-term, right? And really, what 5G and electromagnetic waves are causing is a system interrupt or disrupt in our bodies. Yeah?  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Yeah. And if I was to simplify, it is almost like it is tricking the body into thinking it is daytime when it is nighttime. So having a man-made electromagnetic field, any Wi-Fi enabled devices, smart meters, cell phones, in your bedroom is exposing you to man-made EMFs that are suppressing melatonin. Melatonin is the most important anti-cancer hormone we have in the body. And guess what every kid is on now with neurodevelopmental disorders? Melatonin. We have completely affected our exposure to these radio frequencies that are suppressing the most important anti-cancer hormone that we have. Now melatonin, from a book about 10 years ago, it was 400 pages long on the function of melatonin and melatonin receptors. And it was all about how it sets our circadian rhythm, how it sets our reproductive cycle, like when children, as they mature, when their melatonin drops, that is when a woman’s menstrual cycle starts. So we know the menstrual cycle is starting a lot earlier than before. There are several reasons why they think this is so including the introduction of microplastics and endocrine disrupting chemicals in many products. But also the exposure to man-made EMFs, I suspect, would also be playing a role. And of course, menstrual cycles in the 1900s, the average woman started her menses at night 16. Now they are starting as young as seven and eight, with the average around 11, which is a dramatic change, which is a dramatic increased risk for breast cancer, which now affects one in eight women in Australia. It is just a little alarm bell all on its own, is it not? And we need people paying attention, right?  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** We do. That melatonin was such a big, big player. So, you know, but most people, because the industry, the medical industry knows or pharmaceutical industry knows. So now that is why melatonin synthetic melatonin is such a big seller.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Absolutely. And what we should be doing is first creating environments that support melatonin, which is, you know, a dark room, a cooler room, 18 degrees is ideal. No man-made electromagnetic fields in that room or adjacent rooms, not sleeping near a meter panel, not having a cell phone in the room, not having any Wi-Fi enabled device, you know, really creating the ideal conditions for sleep. Sleep is the hallmark of health. Without sleep, in fact, almost every mental illness has sleep disturbances as part of its diagnosis. Most chronic disease is doomed. Yeah. It is vital to get your sleep, good sleep.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** So what you are talking about is do not put your phone in the room with you, turn your Wi-Fi off at night, right? Do not have any of the devices going at all for at least eight hours.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Exactly right. Yep. And that does require you turning off the smart meter and extenders boosters at nighttime. Preferably, look, I do not like them at all because the output power is so high. That is why you can get internet connectivity in the neighbour’s house from your router in your backyard. They are designed to be, you know, to be quite high in terms of their emission. So I think our best to hardwire and if that is not an option, then to at least turn it off, even if a clock timer on it at night, so it automatically turns off, you know, at a certain time. So people likely get a risk for sleep. But EMFs affect people many ways. So melatonin, we have looked at oxidative stress and inflammation. It also enhances the permeability of the blood brain barrier. So whatever toxins or mold you have in your body, you are pretty much giving it a free pass into the central nervous system. And that is a problem. Toxic load has dramatically increased since the industrial revolution, but in particular, you know, since changes in farming practices in 50s and 60s with the introduction of the organochlorine pesticides and DDT, which is still breaking down in our soils, which is still being passed from one generation to another because it does not come out of the body. It is lipophilic. It stays in the fat. It goes into the breast milk. So we are paying the price of this now with an epidemic, pandemic of children’s neurodevelopmental disorders.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Yeah. Like kids have ADHD, you know, it is the autism was virtually non-existent in 1950s. So you are saying it is associated to ADHD and autism.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** I am saying the chemicals. Yes. So sort of jumped into the chemical side of things. There is a growing body of evidence to indicate that there are chemical exposures, including pesticides, including toxic metals, that could be increasing the risks for these neurodevelopmental disorders. If you look at the impact of these pesticides on an unborn fetus and in children and these pesticides in the elderly, what we are seeing is neurodevelopmental disorders, ADHD, potentially autism in children, and we are seeing dementia and Parkinson’s in the elderly. So there is compelling evidence that these chemicals cause Parkinson’s in the elderly, which was virtually non-existent in the 60s. There is only two cases.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** And you know, for people that are listening out there, I remember going to a doctor who was very alternative. Zenon Gruber was just such a wonderful, wonderful man. And he diagnosed the pesticides in me and that was in my late 50s. And I was surprised to think, you know, like I did not hang around orchards and the farms and things when I was a child, they were still in my system. And here we were five decades later. So yes, yes, they are latent in everyone.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Absolutely. And look, when you, the effect, they are across the globe, I mean, they find them, they found them in the Arctic, in polar bears, even though spraying had occurred 15,000 kilometres away because of global distillation and wind flow. When you spray in one part it affects other parts. And of course, DDT is still used for malaria control in some Asian countries. So we are still being exposed and these chemicals during critical windows of development, especially in certain times of the pregnancy can have dramatic impacts on the outcome of that child later on in their life. And what I am hearing is that we are really just toxic, you know, rubbish bins, really. We are getting it worse and worse. How do we, you are talking about the home in terms of what to do with EMFs. How do we do it with our bodies? How do we clean it up?  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** It is a good question. So it really comes back to making informed choices about the products that you buy. So let us start with, you know, personal care products and cleaning products, really going back to basics. Do we really need to use sanitizers and bleaches and antibacterial in the home? No. The research is showing some of the healthiest populations do not have any chemicals, including the Amish communities that have virtually no asthma, no allergies, very low rates of neurodevelopmental disorders in their kids. And there could be due to other reasons as well, including their vaccine or lack of vaccine program.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Well, I think seven years ago, I opened up, I opened up the kitchen cupboard, I opened up the laundry cupboard and the bathroom cupboard. And I went on a real like focus of cleaning it up and getting back to basics. And, you know, now people are surprised when they look in those cupboards, because there is only two or three products in there, right? And yeah, I encourage everybody to do exactly what you are saying, start to look at those cupboards and start to look at the products, what the ingredients that is in all those things and make some changes.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** In the year, look, good microfibre cloths, a good vacuum cleaner and dishwashing liquid, do 90% of the work and elbow grease. So that is really maybe a scouring pad, etc. I have got one product that is been, he is a fellow called Miracle2. He is based here in Australia. That one product cleans my floors, my bathroom, my toilets, washes my dishes and washes my hands. And I love that on the actual bottle, he says that it is blessed by God. So it is wonderful. But you are right, you can have just a few products that do everything that you need, have not you?  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Absolutely, definitely. So really thinking about what products you are buying into the home, things like air fresheners are like me that often loaded with phthalates or hormone disrupting chemicals. They would definitely be on my list. Perfume, any products with perfume in it unless it is an essential oil base. So avoid perfumes, aftershaves unless they are essential oil or no fragrance, no air fresheners, a big one. In fact, there was interesting research that came out that many of these chemicals, air fresheners in particular and flame retardants in carpets dramatically increased the risk of thyroid disease in cats.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** So they found that. I had a lady come to do my building biology course and I said, look, how did you find us? She said, well, my cat, this will be a talking point. She said, my cat has hypothyroidism, it affects one in our cats, it is a pandemic now, did not exist before this. And she said, she picked it up and said, how old are your carpets? Are they relatively new? And she said, yeah, they are about a year old. And she goes, it is probably the flame retardant in the carpet that is causing this. There is actually data on this and I am doing a blog on that for my YouTube channel that our cats could be warning us of our toxic load.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Our animals, animals are letting us know.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Absolutely. My gosh, it is in your cat. Well, I think my rule of thumb became anything that is extremely popular is probably the worst thing for us. Anything that is being marketed and pushed at us and it is really gaining popularity are usually the worst things that we could be using in our lives.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Yeah, I think if you look at baseline, it is going back to mimic nature. If you can mimic nature in your home, natural light instead of artificial light, really important for healthy home. Lighting is really important because you will find a lot of the lights that are used really suppress melatonin, which is, you know, and can be quite an issue in terms of other health problems. So I tend to find that I have subdued lighting that is half blue light, even no blue light at night. During the day, I want full spectrum lighting because I want to stimulate my serotonin levels. But at night, I want to suppress serotonin and support melatonin so that the kids are more likely to get to bed earlier, etc. So the light is important. When you are looking at building materials, you are going back to basics where you can, can we bring in wool, bamboo, cotton, all of those natural fibers, they are nicer. With regards to carpets, I do not have wall to wall carpets because my kids have allergies and dust mite allergies. So I have hardwood floors that are naturally oiled and then I will have rugs made from natural materials that I would, you know, launder every twice a year or so.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Mm hmm. Get back to basics. Get back to basics with everything. And tell me about, gosh, reproductive stuff, hormones and reproduction. What is happening in our home that is impacting that with us?  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Okay, so you have got pesticides, I mentioned, some pesticides, like the organochlorines, which are now being banned, thankfully, but you have other pesticides that can also mimic the effect of estrogen in the body. Many of these chemicals mimic estrogen, they are called xenoestrogens or foreign estrogens. They have got phthalates and they are in your perfumes, in your air fresheners, they are the ones that need to go. Yes. Flame retardants can also act as some endocrine disruptors as well. So they need to go. But the biggest one that is the big no in the house is vinyl. Vinyl contains phthalates, which of course can mimic estrogen and it is, and it can, you know, come out into the dust where it can be then ingested because children’s hand to mouth ratio is so much higher because they are eating the dust and putting their hands in their mouth. That is a big problem, the vinyl for sure. And plastics, having your plastic food containers, heating plastics, freezing plastics, all of those are going to be hormone disrupting chemicals. Well, the main ones will be polystyrene, vinyl, of course, it is going to be big. And in some of your polycarbonate plastics that contain bisphenols.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** What about our clothes? As I am talking to you, I am thinking that just applies to things that people are buying to wear.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** So it depends on the type, not all plastics are going to be hormone disrupting chemicals. They are the main ones I mentioned, polystyrene, vinyl, polyvinyl chloride, and of course your bisphenols. A lot of your polyesters are not hormone disrupting chemicals, so that is less likely. But of course, the microfibre, the big issues with all the synthetic clothing is what is going down into the main distribution system and out to the oceans is that microfibre. You know, the plastics in our that is coming off our clothes is a huge issue for the aquatic life, you know.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Yes, I hear you. Tell me about our drinking water, please. People need to know what is going on with our drinking water.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** So drinking water is an interesting one. I remember doing a couple, you know, eight years at uni and going, we have a focus on drinking water, which is ridiculous because we have done so much on herbal medicine, homeopathy and nutrition. Drinking water is so important. It is one of the major sources of toxicity that people are going to be exposed to. So because to get it clean, they have to add a lot of chemicals, which is an oxymoron, right? Chlorine, of course, helps prevent, it is all about risk. So chlorine is going to significantly reduce waterborne illnesses, like cholera and all of those waterborne illnesses, which we do not want, of course, because they are life threatening, which is a good thing. But there needs to be enough chlorine in the distribution system by the time it comes out of your tap, then it is still active. Now, chlorine is the strongest antibacterial chemical that we have. If you ingest chlorinated water, what impact does it have on your gut microbiome? Well, it is going to kill off the good and the bad, is it not?  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Yes. Probably. Yes. So this is why I say for no other reason, just to simplify, you must have a water filter to remove that chlorine out of the supply, because it is not meant to be drinking chlorinated water. You need a healthy gut microbiome. Chlorine is one of the strongest antibacterials that you are ever going to ingest. So what is the point in taking a $40 probiotic, drinking it with chlorinated water that is going to kill some of it all the way down?  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Yes. Yes. That is what I said. So when I say that to naturopaths, oh my God, that is so obvious. What did we learn this? Why is it always important for that? But there are other things in the water supply. So fluoride is not found in most of the world’s drinking water supply. And in Europe, it was prevented from being in the water supply, because it was unethical to mass medicate an entire population with a pharmaceutical drug. So fluoride is a drug, it is used to treat tooth decay. And therefore, it is a pharmaceutical drug. So to put a pharmaceutical drug into the water supply without the doctor and the analyzing or determining if that patient needs it, without the person’s permission is actually not ethical. And that was the reason why most of Europe did not ever fluoridate their water supply. And their tooth decay rates are no different to our tooth decay rate. So the premise that it helps teeth is false. In fact, it displaces calcium and there is more likely to be osteoarthritis and hip dysplasia as a result of the displacement of calcium with fluoride because it has a higher affinity. So however, where there is evidence to suggest it prevents tooth decay when it is applied topically in the form of toothpaste that it may prevent tooth decay when it is on, you know, yeah. But the other issue with fluoride is that it is a byproduct from the phosphate fertilizer industry and aluminum industry. And it contains many other very toxic atoms and radioactive nuclides. So from that avenue alone, you want a clean fluoride supply. If we could get calcium fluoride or something naturally from the ground, not a byproduct from toxic waste, toothpaste, that I will definitely recognise. And also what I am hearing too is dosage. Like if they are, you know, putting it in the water and stuff, nobody knows what sort of dosage of it they are getting either and they do not have any control over that.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** That is right. And the only way to get it out really is either an activated alumina filter, which I do not like aluminum, or reverse osmosis. So reverse osmosis will be one of the most effective ways to remove it from water supply and or remove all the toxic metals, etc. So other problems or hazards in the water supply include copper, if you have recently laid copper into your domestic reticulation system, it will tend to, as it is not corroding, but as it is oxidizing and forming that dark layer, it will be releasing more copper ions in the first three years. But copper is really great water, you know, in terms of pipes, because it is going to last 30, 40 years, right? Not like the plastic stuff. We came from copper piping once upon a time, did not we? Yeah. Also, you know, all the flexi hoses we now have instead of copper pipe, flexi hoses that flexible hose under the basin and you will find that is the number one cause of water events and costing over 320 million dollars in insurance claims every year causing massive mold problems in many people’s homes. So what do you mean by water events? So we have a split and suddenly there is a massive water event, bulk water that has resulted in a water overflow and a flood in the house, which is now resulted in microbial growth and mold. So it is the number one cause of flood events in domestic homes. And mold, interesting enough, I am finding that when I stopped using a lot of those chemical based products and stuff in my home, I had less mold in the shower and less mold in the sinks and things like that. Where does it come from?  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** So the molds are everywhere from the Arctic to the Antarctica. They are meant to be there because they are nature’s greatest decomposers. The type of mold you find in a water damaged home is very specific regardless of whether you are in Tasmania or Oslo or Russia. It is the same. So once moisture is present for more than 48 hours, you are going to have microbial growth where the spores already sitting on the surface in your home will start to branch out like filaments. That is what we call it filamentous fungi. It is not like mushrooms we eat. It is not like yeast, it is in probiotic, which are type of fungi. This is filamentous fungi and it is like branch like that spreads very quickly in a short period of time because its function is to decompose your house. So in the presence of moisture, it will start to form these mycelium within 72 hours. It will start to infiltrate into the substrate and release more fungal particulate depending on other factors. So then it starts to spread the spores throughout other areas. If you are exposed to high settled spores in the millions, which you cannot see, by the time you have seen mold, you are looking at 40, 50 million spores per centimetre squared or so. So it is what you cannot see that can cause devastating health effects. And that is the issue with a lot of the homes I am testing is some of the worst times I cannot see or smell well, neither can the client, but the sampling data is really bad. You are absolutely right in terms of it breaking down the body. Its job is to do that. In nature, you see it. You know, when trees are losing their leaves at this time of year, you can smell that mold under the tree where all the leaves are. I see it on my plants. I see it on the actual I have got terracotta pots. You see the mold that starts there. It is just an alert system telling me I need to address the plant because the mold is starting to break down the plant because there is issues going on. Yeah. Well, it is meant to break down that leaf litter, the organic matter. That is what it is meant to do. Otherwise, we would be five stories high in leaf matter without fungi. Fungi play a very important role in the ecosystem. They help plants and trees communicate in forests. They alert. They become like the messenger between the bug killing the tree and the rest of the trees and the forest. It is incredible. There is a fantastic documentary on this called Fantastic Fungi. Well worth watching. It gives you a different understanding of mold. I love fungi. It really challenges me on every level. I have learned to keep my mind closed when I am testing water damage homes because what I think is going on, what is actually going on without data, I am flying blind. So it is what you want to do is create an environment that does not support its growth and the limiting factor there is going to be the moisture. So if you have live in a humid environment where it is more than 75% humidity, you know, for days, weeks on end, you are going to support microbial growth of the spores in the dust. So you have to have good dust management. If you live in Sydney, Central Coast Queensland, you really need to make sure you are dusting your house weekly because the dust will have spores on it naturally and it will utilize the water vapor in the air if the humidity levels are too high to start growing. Now it will be limited by the amount of dust on the surface but you know, if you have a lot of dust and a lot of humidity, then you are going to have, you know, might increase microbial growth. The biggest risk factors from mold are not the mold in the grout of the shower. Everyone has got that. It is not a mold on the window. The only reason why you get mold on windows if it is a, you know, a single pane window in an old house where you have got water vapor hitting a cold surface and condensing and then it is dirt. Mold does not grow on non-porous items like plastics, metal, glass, windows, does not do so well on bricks and things like that, tiles. But if they are dirty and there is moisture, it will. So that is, you know, a good housekeeping becomes really important. Keep it clean.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Absolutely. Absolutely. It is important. And the greatest risk for health problems from my experience is, you know, those roof leaks, the drainage issues that are not being fixed. It will be steam cleaning carpets and nightmare because when you get items like carpets wet and they are not drying within hours, you start getting microbial growth. And when you stand on those carpets, it becomes a plume of fungal particulate that you cannot see. So the worst risk where people end up with the chronic fatigue like symptoms will be wet carpets or wet plaster board where they cannot, you know, you cannot see it. You need moisture meters to identify. You need to check where is the leak coming from? Is it liquid water or is it water vapor? And therefore, you know, address that as fast as possible.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** So you are putting mold together with chronic fatigue?  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** It is a number one cause of chronic fatigue from my experience in the last 30 years with an idea about that.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Wow. How is that causing chronic fatigue in the body then?  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** So mold affects the body in three ways. It can cause a true allergy, which is IgE mediated. So you go to get allergy tested with a panel, the RAST test, for example, and then they will test are you allergic to mold? So an allergy can even be sorry to interrupt there, but can it be an allergy can be a skin condition? Yes. So you can end up with eczema. Yeah, absolutely. There is many items, nickel, etc. that can cause allergies. For mold, it will be asthma, hay fever. That will be the most common. So majority of asthmatics will be sensitive to mold, will have an allergy to mold. Hay fever, that is all year round. If it is in your house, it is not season related. So that is how we will differentiate. Okay, is it could be mold? Well, we would expect it all year round. The other symptoms in it can cause infection and colonisation. So if you are living in a damp environment where there is persistent moisture often that you cannot see, what healthy people get is upper or lower respiratory tract infections that are persistent ongoing and they keep coming back. So it is normal to get colds and flusier, of course, but when it starts happening all the time and dragging on for weeks or months, when it does not respond to treatment and it comes back, that is always a key for us. Check is there actually mold in this environment, whether it is school, workplace, car or home. And also tells me that what is the point in getting medicated for it, if you are not dealing with the cause and what is going on in your home? That is why these people do not get better. So they get these symptoms and so that is the second way infection colonisation. Colonisation in the upper sinuses resulting in many symptoms, but chronic sinusitis, tonsillitis, pharyngitis, bronchitis, all the itis that are persistent and keep coming back. And pneumonia, they require a lot of patients with pneumonia, hospitalized, where occasionally they will identify they have got better in hospital, go back, they are sick and then most of the time they are not identifying the cause of that problem, which is unfortunate. And of course, life threatening. The third way can affect the body which results in fatigue syndrome is when people have a certain genetic makeup and this can be either in the human response gene, immune response genes on chromosome six, which means how the immune system reacts to the mold is different to most people. Instead of identifying it and encapsulating it and removing it, it is actually setting up an inflammatory response, which does not stop. So the way they are reacting to the mold ends up with brain on fire. So essentially it is affecting and suppressing key neurotransmitters, melanocyte stimulating hormone, vasoactive intestinal polypeptide in the brain, and then it is having far-reaching effects on every system. So they end up with sleep disturbances, they end up with pain wandering around the body, they end up with brain fog, poor concentration, poor memory, missing words sentence, fibromyalgia, weakness of the muscles, they start urinating a lot more, they start drinking a lot more, but they are not diabetic when they are tested. Right. Right. That is actually mold. So it is shutting down the entire system through inflammation. It is and because they are the inflammation is persisting in the, they cannot get over infections and yeasts, they start getting these infections in the upper sinuses in the vaginal in the vaginal area in the gut. And the byproducts of these infections are causing traffic jams in the liver, which then results in more chemical sensitivities, more mental health problems, because the pathway in the liver we call phase two glucuronidation is so important for excreting and detoxing neurotransmitters, serotonin, melatonin. So over time these patients literally go mad, brain fog, pre-orgasmic brain, a mild rage. It is like they are not them anymore, because the detoxification capacity is compromised. So they are perfuming, they cannot wear anymore, because they start reacting, they get migraines or headaches. And the reason is the byproducts of the mold and the infections in the body is blocking the liver detox, which means other things cannot get through. Yes. So it is perpetuating. It is like the whole body is toxic and there is no exit. There is no exit pathway at all. So the way they treat them is first you have got to get them out of that environment, because if the trigger is there, the supplements help, but they are not going to cure the problem. So they have to get out of that environment. And the problem is some of the worst times I see, I cannot see or smell it. So the key for me is the history, which is what month of what year did things go pear shaped for you? What was going on in your life at the time in terms of stress for last chips work? What about chemical exposure? What about you know, EMFs? What about when you moved house? How long have you been in this home? You have been in 20 years. Have you had a bathroom window? Oh yeah, we did three years ago. Well, that is interesting, because two and a half years ago, you got really sick. Bathroom windows are a big issue, or sometimes because if this mold hidden in the wall assembly and they strip it to frame, they could cross contaminate rooms, if not the entire house, by dragging that material through the house. They need someone like you to come in and start asking them some questions, because if you are compromised to that degree that you have got brain fog, you cannot think straight, you cannot operate straight, you cannot even think your way through the problem.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** That is exactly right. And taking a history is difficult, which is why I do my histories on zoom with a partner or someone who is living with them in the home, because they are very forgetful. They forget key information that is helpful as part of the assessment process. Yes, and just for everybody listening, that is part of what you do. You do personal investigations into people’s homes and consultations, but you have also got courses there as well. Boy, I mean, we have only been going for 40 minutes here, and there is an enormous amount of information for people to digest, right? But you also do courses that they can come along. How do your courses work?  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Yes. So I am about to launch courses for consumers. I am getting their head around mold and helping them educate about good information about what causes mold in the home, how to prevent it. And more importantly, how to clean it. A lot of what is on social media is misinformation that can cause more harm in many cases. Use of bleach, clove oil is completely unfounded and not effective. So really understanding what is causing the mold is important and how to prevent it, how to have things in the house to actually prevent these issues going on, monitoring humidity levels in those areas like bathrooms and laundry kitchens to see what is going on and whether it is increased risk. So all of these things, it is really putting it together to help people really understand that. But I also have been running the Australian College of Environmental Studies since 1999. It is a registered training organisation and provides the only national accredited training in building biology, mold testing, electromagnetic field testing, human geopathic stress in Australia. So it has been a privilege to teach so many people and trades coming through learning from them. So they might major cohort restorers, plumbers, remediators, hygienists. But 75% of our building biologists are women, mature age females, which I love that. You know, we are the highest in building construction cohort, it predominantly women in a building construction field. So it is good when they come through the course and then they are telling the trades actually not doing your job right. This is what you need to be doing in terms of preventing condensation and moisture, reducing electromagnetic field exposures, etc. working in collaboration with the other trades.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Well, what is a couple of things that we can do to reduce the mold aspect? Because as I am talking to you, I have got red flags going off about actually where I live.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Yes. So in terms of mold, first get to the moisture. The first question I say to my mold testing technician or IEPs and environmental professionals is, why is the moisture? Without moisture, there is no microbial growth. So is it water vapor or is it liquid water? So is there a roof leak? Is there a plumbing leak in the wall? Is there, so we use things like thermal imaging cameras, moisture meters to identify moisture. So the history we asked the client in detail, tell us about the history of any leaks or floods or weather events or drainage problems during heavy rain events. Where does water pool around your house? Get outside in those really heavy rain events and look at how does your house cope? It tells us where the weak points are. That is really important.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Sorry, you can smell it. You can smell it. Mold is really quite sweet. Well, it is similar to what the leaves under a tree smell like when they are all decomposing. It has got that kind of musty sweet smell. That musty smell exactly. And that smell is indicating it is growing. So that is one of the most important markers when you are testing water damage buildings. Is there an odour? Because the odour is saying where it is growing and the odour is created. It is called microbial volatile organic compounds or MVOCs or fungi farts. And essentially, they are growing. They are emitting that to kill off their competitors. Now, when mold grows, it is emitting some of the most deadliest chemicals known to man in the form of mycotoxins. When you breathe them in, over a long time, you are shutting down protein production. Your muscles start to waste. Your liver starts to shut down. Your kidneys start to fail. And that is the worst case scenario for these patients in chronically damp environments.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Right. Thank you. Thank you. Everybody out there just start taking notes. I want everybody out there looking around their home and looking at how they are working with their computers. Like I hardwired my computer. As soon as I started, I got an EMF meter and went around the home and amazed myself at the readings that I was getting. I then went into a work environment where I was and the fellow I was working with wanted to take it home and you wanted to go and do his house as well. And it just went from there. You need everyone needs to start looking at the internet of things in their home because all of those things are transmitting signals all over the place, which is interfering with our central nervous system and our electronic field. And they need to start looking like you have just been talking about mold. And look, you said at the beginning, tell us about 5G. Well, the difference in the frequency as we go up the electromagnetic spectrum, the waves get shorter. So they are more likely to involve the surface of the body. But what it is doing, regardless of the frequency field, it is impacting voltage gated ion channels on all the cell membranes, especially those in the brain, the heart and the testicles. And it is causing a flux of calcium ions, oxidative stress, and then potentially other downstream effects like cell death, for example, in the worst case scenario. So just for one second, their brain, heart and testes. It is where these voltage gated ion channels are at their highest. That is where electromagnetic fields tend to target the most. So a lot of the symptoms of calcium, we like to make next sensitivity, tend to be palpitations, POTS, postural orthostatic tachycardia, so getting up and having that rapid heartbeat, although that could be due to mold as well. But headaches, tinnitus is very common in long-standing EMF related issues. So ringing in the ears, your headaches, sleep disturbances, palpitations. One of the most common signs of mold, sorry, EMFs, but they can also get the brain fog, so poor concentration, poor memory as well. So mold and EMFs have about 80% identical symptoms. And once they become mold sensitive, because of its impact on myelin, it dramatically escalates people’s sensitivity to electrical fields. So what we find is if someone is mold sensitive, they are likely to be chemically and electrically sensitive because the system is shutting down.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Gotcha. You know, this stuff just creeps up on us, right? We have gone from a couple of generations ago being very natural in the way that we lived and our environment. The whole, all of these things we are talking about has crept up on us slowly, and human beings, we are incredibly adaptable, incredibly adaptable. We just adjust and adjust for the toxicity and, you know, the pollution. And here we are now.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** And I guess the issue is it has happened so fast in terms of our evolution that we have not had time to adapt. And we are seeing this in our children. Children, when you expose during critical windows of development, these pesticides, these electromagnetic fields, these, you know, mold biotoxins in damp homes, is devastating. We are in a pandemic of neurodevelopmental disorders, but that has never been seen before prior to the 50s. So something is dramatically happening. Infertility, like I used to joke 30 years ago, to my naturopath from online lecture at university, it is not going to be the nuclear bomb that wipes us out. It will be infertility because you cannot introduce hormone disrupting chemicals to the population, especially in critical windows of development during in utero. So it is like the little mite when the woman took the little mite in pregnancy, it affected her child and resulted in phocomelia and loss of limbs. It was not the mother that was impacted by it. It was the child during a critical window of development. And that is the problem. We are in a pandemic. We are sicker. We are living longer, but we are sicker. And the source of many of these exposures is obvious once you look at the data, which is Parkinson’s in paraquat, which keeps being reproved. Pesticides are a nightmare. Glyphosate, these are affecting the genes, especially in utero, and it is having devastating impacts on human health. So we need to act because our water supplies are already contaminated. They are full of microplastics. We are drinking our own plastics. We are breathing our own garbage that we have been burning in the orts getting into the water supply. I mean, if we do not act on a much larger scale together, then we are a point where we will go, let us get rid of this planet and get on to the next and see which other planet we can get with. It is ridiculous. It is like, this is a global phenomenon as equally as important as climate change, probably more because it is already here.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** More. More because, yeah, our environment is killing us now.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** It is certainly having dramatic impacts on human health. There is animal welfare as well. I took as the first to introduce, looking at the impact of pesticides on the bald eagle, for example, and as a result of her work started the US EPA. But there are problems when the system is not being funded, where industry are getting a hand in the system, where they are influencing exposure standards. That is why I wrote this in my dissertation about the impact of environmental exposures on chronic diseases and where the problems are. It really comes down to dividends for shareholders and industry having a hand in exposure standards, like our public health. Now we are talking about what I really loved on your website when I found this. I put the page up on its own here. The four dog defense. I love that. Now you are talking about that. First, it is about awareness people. Be aware of everything Nicole has been talking about and start looking at it in your own environment. But please, Nicole, tell us about the four dog defense. I love it.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** All right. I probably cannot remember the top of my head, but I think my dog does not bite.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Yes.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** My dog does not bite. So essentially industry is saying my product is not going to harm you. And the interesting thing about that is they do not have to prove to provide evidence to say it is safe. So the burden of proof is on researchers to show over a lifetime there is a problem because they can release it without any requirements to prove safety. Now, fortunately with the publication of the REACH directive in the US, sorry, in Europe, and there was an act of course in the US Toxic Substance Control Act I think it was that requires manufacturers to say actually we do need some data before you bring it in. There is still a lot of problems with those because there has been legislation to try and fix this system, but it is still very broken. But essentially manufacturers do not really need to provide a lot of evidence to show that their products are safe so they can just completely deny it. Yes. And then they get their own researchers to manufacture the paperwork to say that it is okay. Well publication bias is a big problem with research is essentially if you have got unlimited resources to do as much research you can do 10 studies. And if eight said this drug does not work, but there is marginal impacts where it could, they are not going to publish the eight that said no. So not all published, it is publication bias. But look having done a PhD, how you ask the question can almost influence the response. So this is where you know research is not what people think it is. I mean it is fantastic and a lot of research is great as long as you do not step on big toes. Yes. And so do research as long as the outcome is going to support the person who ever funded you in the end. A lot of people in electromagnetic fields lost their funding because you know telecommunications are putting their pressure on journals. And I know that first hand because I did one of the first real world study on the impact of Wi-Fi on sleep. I used it was a four week randomized control trial crossover pilot study where I got 12 healthy adults. That was a difficult finding 12 healthy adults in in Melbourne. But anyway, they slept well that were not menopause, that were happy not to drink coffee after three that had low EMFs in their homes. When I looked at the data to come up with my research, I realized that there had been no real world studies. Almost every study in electromagnetic fields is done in a simulated laboratory under laboratory conditions, which is ridiculous because it does not reflect real world conditions. And the reason why that is difficult is because there is so many other confounding factors that you have to adjust for, which would almost be like, well, if you did a study like that, they will probably not even publish it because they can just say these other things could have influenced it. Right. So knowing that and having done EMF testing for a long time and teaching it, I knew what sort of things to look for. And I had three professors, two of which were sleep professors about, you know, making sure that the people we chose to get into the study were not going to, you know, did not have things that could cause sleep disturbances. So essentially it was four weeks, first week I did baseline. So I literally at the end of the seven nights, check their EEG, their heart rate variability, movement in bed, they had to wear a watch for that and do sleep diaries. The second week I introduced a baby monitor into their bedroom and at the end of that, so that was double blind. So I did not know if the baby monitor was on or off. Then we did it again. We measured the EEG next morning, the heart rate variability, actigraphy movement in bed and sleep diaries. Third week was wash out, nothing. And then we measured those parameters again. And the fourth week the baby monitor came in again. So during one of those weeks, the baby monitor was on and the baby monitor was off. So it was double blind. And, you know, it was nerve-wracking because I remember my supervisor Mark Cohen said to me, Nicole, what do you see a lot as a building biologist in the field? And I said, well, if people sleep with Wi-Fi and EMFs devices, they do not sleep. You know, we all know that as a building biologist. He said, but no one else knows it because it is not in the research. Stick it in there. So I am like, okay, let us do this study. Anyway, so the data came back and, you know, it is nerve-wracking because I am going, this is what I am seeing. Is it going to show up anything after seven nights with me? Give me evidence. Give me evidence, yeah. And my two sleep professors went, oh my God, the evidence was there. It impacted non-REM sleep in the brainwaves. And it also affected the sleep diary. So we had subjective and objective changes after seven nights when the baby monitor next to their head, next on the bedside table. I submitted it to a journal. It was rejected. It was rejected by 10 journals. Some kept it for eight months, nine. I could not submit it. And often some of the reasons were there is not enough participants in this study. So to hold my study for eight months and then reject it, to say there is not enough participants, if it is statistically significant, there were enough participants. Right. So my two professors are going, I do not want to publish this. They do not want to publish. So it is not even corporate or industry that is it is actually blocking these things. It is the tentacles that lead into university and other organizations as well that are all blocking the university.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Universities are corporatized. The government should pull all industry funding and support funding so it is completely no conflict of interest. That is what should happen, but it does not happen. CSIRO is corporatized. And that is why I say medical conferences, evidence-based medicine is a furphy because when you look at what is really going on behind the scenes, especially in controversial areas like electromagnetic field research, it is bullshit. It is unfortunate because it is just not focused on health. It is focused on money.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Yes. Of course. An outcome and driver or something like that. So fortunately, eventually, you did get published. I think it has had about 30,000 views now in the last month. Congratulations.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Yeah. So I did get published, which was really good, but it is sort of it is like a curricular. You do not are going to stay. You can get funding. It is something.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Is not it sad when you are pioneering something like you are and you are finding the truth about things. And then you have to come on shows like mine or you have to get it out through other avenues to be able to educate the people.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Exactly. Exactly right. So this is where I realized 30 years ago, the revolution does not happen from the top down. It happens from the ground up. And that is why I started the building biology industry in Australian and healthy homes and educate. So my graduates are the heroes here because they are the ones going out into the homes, educating people how to make better informed choices about the products they get and how to create these homes.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Yeah. So with a couple of minutes to go, number two, so the first one was my dog does not bite. The second one is my dog bites, but it did not bite you.  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Yes. So they are saying that you did not get exposed. So even though I guess the challenge there is showing that yeah, it is there and it can cause health effects, but it actually did not affect you. So why are complaining? Got it. And then the third one is my dog bit you, but it did not hurt you.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** That is right. So it is within exposure standards. So yeah, you are exposed, but and it is in your body, but it is not affecting you because it is within exposure standards, but they do not realize they are exposed. So what is the problem?  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Exactly right. And having said that, I just want to put out there to everybody right now. I was watching someone the other day with their mobile phone up on their head talking on the phone. And I am thinking, hang on a minute, 10 years ago, like, you know, there was a whole heap of people talking about do not do that because people were getting brain tumors and all sorts of things. And it is like everyone has just forgotten. They have just forgotten. It is one last one. My dog bit you and it hurt you, but it was not my fault.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** That is right. Because we warned you with the photos on cigarette packets, do not buy our product, but you chose to buy our product and we warned you, there was a harm. We warned you with your cell phone not to put it in your person. It is in the settings. If you can find it, we warned you. So do not, you know, you cannot sue us because we warned you that our product could increase that risk. This is just crazy. Right. When I had teenage kids, I will never forget there was some song that some rapper put out. And part of the lyrics were, it was not me. It was not me. So he got caught doing this and caught doing that. It was not me. So my kids actually picked up that phrase and they started using that with me as well. And what you are talking about here is that that is what corporate and industry are doing. They are going, it was not me. Yeah. What do we do? Does not work. Does not work. And look, the real issue that should be done is what is the cost risk benefit analysis of the real cost on the Medicare system by not addressing those issues? I think they are realizing that it needs to be done because the cost of not having healthy housing, special social housing, where people are caught. Now they are staying in the environment where they are moldy. Now the kids cannot go to school and staying where it is moldy. And now the whole, I can forget the academics. It is the real cost is huge. It is obvious to me, but it needs to be done for the actuaries and the accounts for the government to move on this. But again, you are talking about the top, making some changes, and we are back to, they just will not. Because if they can have everyone reliant on the health system and Medicare and stuff, they are not really too fussed about that either.  

**Speaker 1 – Host:** Well, I am hopeful there must be some politicians that do care. But, you know, I think you know, Victoria, so I have been burnt badly by this. I bet you are like, it is not going to, I cannot mention his name or her name. I am not going to say anything. No, but oh my gosh, we are up for time. Like that is just flown. And like I could do, I could listen to you for a long, long time. Thank you so much, Nicole. You are a wealth of information and you are doing incredible things to help all of us with our health and wellbeing. I hope everybody goes away now and they can have a look at your website. They can contact you if they want consultation with you, or they you have got courses that are there, they can look into that. But also there is a wealth of information just for people to read through and start to educate themselves because everybody should be looking at this stuff, should not they?  

**Speaker 2 – Guest:** Oh, I think so. If you are not well, or if you want to maintain really good health, absolutely, there is simple things you can do. Yep. And I am looking forward to finally publishing the fourth edition of my book because it has been out of print for six years towards the end of the year. So that will be a really good one. We have got something to look forward to. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for what you are doing for our world. Thank you, Nicole.